THE LICENSING BILL. DEBATE IN THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Evening Post, Volume LXVIII, Issue 96, 20 October 1904, Page 2

THE LICENSING BILL. DEBATE IN THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

FURTHER PROGRESS MADE. The Legislative Council was engaged for half its afternoon sitting and the ■whole of its evening sitting in further considerationg of the Licensing Bill. Further debate began with clause 31, dealing with Licensing Committees and their constitution. Some verbal alterations were made. "Let us improve the language if you won't let us do anything else," urged the Hon. G. Jones, and a deal of time was wasted over a discussion whether one should say "none is" »r "none are." Objection was taken by the Hon. 3. Rigg to the proviso that it shall be necessary for the Chairman and two members to ,be actually present together for the purpose of jointly exercising their powers. He wanted to know why this proviso, dropped in 1886, had been revived. A judicial act, he considered, should be done in a judicial manner, because many of the Committee's duties were not merely administrative', but something more. He moved to strike out the proviso. The Attorney-General said the present arrangement, whereby the Committee had to meet to deal with various minor administrative acts, had been productive of much 'inconvenience, and it was to obviate this that the proviso had been made. The Hon. C. Louisson said that some such provision was necewary, otherwise there would be great difficulty in getting men to sit on Licensing Committees in the country. Applications for conditional licenses might, without the proviso, experience a very long delay in beipg granted. Mr. Rigg's amendment' was lost by 25 votes to 9. The Hon. T. K. Macdonald moved to strike out the clause with a view to substituting a series of new clauses proTiding that a Licensing Commifce* *fc its

annual sitting shall consist of three Magistrates (one the Magistrate of the district, and the others appointed by the Governor), and, at its quarterly sitting, of the Magistrate of the district, sitting alone. He urged that the Licensing Committee system had lamentably broken down, and the committees had ceased to be what bad been originally intended. Under the present state of affairs power lay in the hands of the No-License Party to support and elect men who had given the most public notice of th«ir vi«ws and intentions., in spite of the law on th« point. The present system was of a most disappointing character. It was a poor spectacle to see the churches taking the part in the elections of Licensing Committees that they did. The sooner this system, was done away with the better. In the other House, he knew, the majority of the members thought with him on this point, but they were unable to express their opinions quite freely, as they had to consider the often extreme opinions of their constituents. If the men who formed the bulk of the Licensing Commitees at present- stood for any other office they would not be elected. At present, with female suffrage, and marshalled by the churches and marshalled by the No-License Party, these men obtained a majority in a. contest for positions in which- they had to deal with property worth millions of pounds.' A protest against the Hon. T. K. Macdonald's views was made by the Hon. J. Rigg, who said it was the most undemocratic of actions to propose the abolition of bodies elected by the people themselves. Until the Stipendiary Magistrates were elected by the people they should not take the place of elective committees. The Wellington Licensing Committee was the best that the city had ever had, and as a result there had been greater reforms than there had ever been before. Formerly it had been the brewers' influence which had been paramount, and the result had been an intolerable condition of affaira With reference to the last speaker's allusions to' tie churches, he would' like to point out that the usual cqmplaint against the churches was that. they merely preached without practising. ■ It was a matter for praise rather than blame that they had been organising voters .to protest against what they deemed to be an evil. The Attorney-General, referring to the Hon. J. Rigg's statement that the Government had made a similar proposal in last year's Bill, said tltat it was a complete mistake. He hoped, however, that the Committee would not reject the clause in the Bill. "The amendment contemplated by the Hon. T. K. Macdonald was such a vital one that, if it were carried, the Bill might as well be abandoned, for it would never be agreed to by the other Chamber. If it were carried, then it would bo "good-bye" to the Bill for this session. The Committees might or might not be partisan committees, but they were elected by the people, and he was sure that the people would not consent to forego that right. Nobody in the -"other place" would dare to accept such an amendment. "I am tired of hearing it said in this debate that we must not amend the Bill 1 lest it should be disagreed with by the other House," began the Hon. S. T. George, who supported Mr. Macdonald's amendment. He stated that some years ago a Licensing Bench had been influenced by something which its members had received. "Very refreshing," retorted the Hon. G. Jones! who expressed pleasure at seeing the little fight that had cropped up. liie last speaker was a "clubbist" — he did not know what public sentiment was, or what public opinion was, on- the subject. If he Wanted to know what public opinion was, let him remember that as soon as the Premier made a suggestion that the present. Committee system should be changed, there was a storm that made liini cnange his mind. He challenged the opponents of the No-license- Party, to point to a single wrong act that waa committed by the Licensing Committees. The truth was that the Licensing Committees had become stf representative of the people that they were becoming a menaoe to the liquor traffic. If the people were not to rule throngh their representatives, who was torule? Regarding the statement that members of Licensing Committees would never be elected to any other position, he considered that if that was a fact, it was due to the fact that they were too honourable. To those who objected tuat the Licensing Committees were largely elected by women, he would point to the House of Representatives, which, since the introduction of female suffrage had been more intelligent and more in touch with public opinion than they had been beforeA storm of dissent from a small section of the Chamber interrupted this sentiment, and, with the expression of a wish that the Council was equally in touch j with the public mind, Mr. Jones concluded his speech. i The Hon. A. Baldey thought that the present Licensing Committees were too much on one side — "Of course they are," interrupted an hon. member. "On the right side." "What are we here for?" asked the Hon. W. Beehan, who expressed great sorrow at the attitude or the Attorney-General. If the Bill were lost it would be due to the threats of the Attorney-General. He did not believe that the Bill would be lost if the amendment were, carried. The Attorney-General resented^ the imputation of having made a threat during the debate. His duty was to explain the position, and he did not hesitate to do so. The Premier had given «. pieage that if the Bill were materially Interfered with it would, be by the House. It was perfectly proper for members to vote according to their opinion, but the circumstances were exceptional. The Bill had passed through the other House as the result of a conrpromiwe, and to get a good workable measure there must be a compromise, and it would be unfair to those members in another place who had subordinated their personal opinions for the, common good, if the members of the Council would not do likewise. He urged that the present Bill should be passed, and that, if the present amendment were desired, it should' be made the subject of <mother Bill. He asked that members should take a. reasonable view of the situation, and uphold the Bill. The dinner adjournment then arrived. On the Council resuming, the Hon. W. C. Smith and the Hon. W. Beehan had a spar. The former aeserted that the Auckland member would be wiser whenie had been longer m the Council, and would Hot make such foolish statements as he usually made, and the latter asserting his independence at some length. Supporting the clause as it stood in the Bill, the Hon. W. M. Bolt said that those who were supporting the amendment were barking at the moon and striving for something which they would never see. "What right have we, sitting nere, to interfere with the rights of the people?" he went on. "We have no mandate from the people. Whom do we represent?" "Ourselves," interjected Mr. Rigg. "Exactly," replied Mr. Bolt, and he urged that accordingly it would be improper for the Council to attempt to get behind the will of the peoplo, or to undermine their rights. He characterised the bringing in of the amendment as a piece of downright cheek. The Hon. H. Foldwick rose to a point

of order, and asked whether the hon. member should not withdraw his reference to the Hon. T. K. Macdonald's action as "downright cheek." The withdrawal was made. A defence of the Licensing Committees as at present constituted, was contributed by tbe Hon. F. H. Fraser, who considered that the present system worked very well, and that the people would not tolerate a change. TSte amendment was lost by 22 votes to 6, the minority consisting of the Hons. D. Pinkerton, H. Feldwiek, S. T. George, A. Baldey, W. Beehan, and G. M'Lean. The 'Hon. T. K. Macdonald did not appear in the Council to vote for his amendment. At clause 37 (recording and endorsing convictions) the Hon. J. Rigg asked why the clause had been so framed that offences under sections 148 and 155 (viz., harbouring or bribing constables and selling in unlawful hours) were not amongst the offences which entailed a liability of endorsement on the licensed premises. The Attorney-General agreed that there was something in the last speaker's arguments, and moved to' postpone the cla,use, intimating that he would move the recommittal of the Bill to reconsider clause 35 in connection with the point raised. "This is a most remarkable clause," said the Hon. J. Rigg when clause- 38 was reached. This clause provides that where two endorsements have been made against any licensed premises the licensee, if a tenant, shall be deemed to have forfeited his lease, and the the Licensing Committee may, by order of the immediate landlord, cancel the lease and authorise any other nominee of the landlord to carry on the business. Mr. Rigg urged that under the clause a brewer might torce a tenant to commit breaches of the law by making him sell more beer than' he could sell by observing the law — in order to get rid of him. It was one, of the worst clauses he had ever seen introduced into any Bill. It was like "greasing the" fat pig," and he urged that some of the responsibility should be placed on Me shoulders of the landlord. The Hon. C. Louisson moved an amendment, which was lost by 29 votes to 5, and the clause was agreed to, Clause 40 is the clause dealing with the bona-fide traveller, and the Hon. F. Arkwright moved to strike it out with the view to inserting a clause "to define what the traveller really was. Personally he would like to see the clause struck out, and the bona-fide traveller abolished altogether, a view in which he was supported by the Ho;i. C. C. Bowen, who denounced the Sunday traveller as a nuisance to everybody, ahd as being very productive of perjury. The Hon. A. L. Smith spoke in similar terms, but the Hons., F. Trask and W. Bolt held different views, the former moving that the proviso that, after his first drink, a bona-fide traveller shall travel five miles for his second, be deleted. The debate proceeded with some levity for a time, and the Attorney-General eventually said he would accept the Hon. F. Arkwright's amendment if it went in the direction of the proposal of the Bill. In the meantime he would move to postpone the clause. The Hon. J. Rigg said the AttorneyGeneral might consider the advisableness of opening the hotels for an hour or two on Sundays. It was not tbe bona-fide traveller who consumed the bulk of the liquor on Sundays, but the people who had had too much to drink on the previous evening. Eventually the clause was postponed. Objection was taken by the Hon. T. K. Macdonald to that provision in clause 43v (supplying liquor to youths) which prohibits the sale of liquor- to youths under tne age of eighteen years. There might be married men— there were married men —under eighteen years of age, and youths of seventeen were allowed to bear arms. Accordingly he moved the deletion of the word "eighteen" in order to substitute "sixteen." The amendment was lost on the voices. The clause dealing with persons, found on licensed premises during closing hours called forth an amendment from the amendment from the Hon. D. Pinkerton in the shape of a new sub-section providing that, in order to give free access to the police, the outer door of licensed premises should not be locked for half an hour after closing time. After long discussion the amendimnt was rejected by 22 votes to 1. At 11.20 p.m. progress was reported and further consideration set down for - to-day. The Council then ..-ose^

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