LICENSING MATTERS. NO-LICENSE DEPUTATION TO THE PREMIER.

Evening Post, Volume LXVI, Issue 8, 9 July 1903, Page 7

LICENSING MATTERS. NO-LICENSE DEPUTATION TO THE PREMIER.

INTERESTING STATEMENTS. THE PREMIER GOES FURTHER THAN THEY DESIRE. Something over a hundred delegates to the No-license Convention now sitting in Wellington waited on the Premier yesterday evening to put before him certain reforms which they desired to see carried out in the Licensing Law. About thirtythree members of both branches of the Legislature also attended. Before the deputation had been introdticed the Premier said that when he fixed tht dato for the interview it was anticipated that certain matters would by that date have been dealt with by the Courts. Those matters had not yet been dealt with, and he hoped that, in. regard to the positions at Newtown, Port Chalmers, and Bruce, they would in what they were going to say realise that those matters were still before the Courts. Mr. Aitken, M.H.R., having introduced the deputation, Mr. A. S. Adams, President of the New Zealand Alliance, spoke. The deputation was, he said, absolutely representative of the colony, from the north of Auckland to Invercargiil. The first matter to which he Wished to draw attention was that of the very serious consequences which had ensued owing to tb~e result of the enquiries into the conduct of the recent local option polls. Without suggesting for a moment as to whether one side or the other was in the wrong, he thought it would at once appeal to the Premier that no poll, the object of which was to secure an expression of the will of the electors of the colony, should be liable to be set aside for mere technicalities or for any matter which did not attach to the very root, the question of the poll itself — that unless it should be made clear that the result of the poll did not express the real will of the electors no power should be given to either -party who might be interested or to the Courts to interfere with the express determination of the electors in any district. The deputation asked the Premier to have the law amended so that for the future there should be no power to interfere with the determination of the electors unless it was clearly shown that some irregularity or impropriety had occurred which had resulted in the poll not being the real expression of the will of the electors. They also wished to have the law amended so that whenever a poll was declared void a further poll would immediately be taken, so that licenses should not be forced upon or taken away from a district by reason of any technicalities. Further, subsection 3 of section 4 of the Act of 1895 provided that where there was no election of a member the poll should be void unless at least two-thirds of the electors on the roll recorded their votes. That had been felt to be a real grievance, not because it required their party to record a large vote, but because of the handicap they might be put to through failure to purge the rolls. Then, again, it had been held that an invalid vote must be counted in the total number of votes recorded. That, he was quite sure, was never intended i by Parliament, and they wanted the law altered in that respect. They had also been very much impressed with the fact that a great many of the irregularities complained of, and which undoubtedly had been committed during the polls, were due partly to the incompetence and partly to the gross carelessness of officials, They suggested that as polls were liable to be set aside through official blundering and incompetence and carelessness some penalties should be provided sufficiently severe, so that officials would understand that they had, at their peril, to qualify themselves for the important duties they were called upon to perform, and that they must take sufficient care to see that the polls were conducted in a proper and Tegular way. They were gratified that the Government had informed the management of the Aghburton Club that the charter would be withdrawn, bjut they read that the management resisted that decision, and they therefore urged that the law on the subject ought to be cleared up, and that where prohibition was carried club charters should expire. The deputation also asked for tLe abolition of bottle licenses. They failed also to see why wholesale and accommodation licenses should not be brought under the reduction as well as the no-license vote ; packet licenses should not be granted in harbours and inland waters and rivers. Another grievance was the absolutely inept definition of "bai" in the Act of 1881. He had been looking round the hotels in Wellington and found that it seemed a proper thing for the police and the Licensing Committee and everybody that houses should have one license only, and yet should be able to have bars all over the place, and even, in one hotel, to the number of seven. He submitted that it was never intended that there should be more than one place in a hotel where liquors would be kept for stile except wheie the Committee gave special consent for the opening of a larger number of bars. They asked for an amendment of the law in that direction. With regard to the sale of liquor in the native areas, he felt sure that the Premier had often felt grieved at the sad results wiiich had followed from the sale of liquor in the King Country. The suggestion he had. to make was that section 33 of the Act of 1895 should be made applicable to the King Country, and be so amended with reference ,to the native areas as to be thoroughly effective, and to prevent the importation of liquor on any pretence into that district. itev.- E. Walter (representing the Grand Lodge, 1.0. G.T.) gave details of different methods of procedure which had been adopted by various returning officers at the local option polls. He urged that when the returns were sent in they should include a statement as to the number of persons who had voted, that being a necessary item from which to ascertain the result of the poll. There should also be one form only of ballot paper for the whole* of the colony. Further, there had not been a solitary instance in which, on a recount being taken, the original figures were found to be coflrect, so that they had come to the conclusion that it was only reasonable, fair, and right that a recount should be made in every case quite apart from any petition being sent in for that purpose. Regarding petitions against polls, he pointed out that at present the arrangement was very one-sided. If those who were in favour of the continuance of licenses thought that by a petition for an enquiry they might get an alteration, they might succeed, with the result, as they had seen, that the vote of the people for no-license was upset. But suppose, on the other hand, continuance was carried and the other side petitioned for an enquiry, and the poll was voided, the result was that licenses went on as before. Very detailed instructions should be given as to the duties of those engaged in taking the poll, and he sugg 'sted that a committee of the House should be set up to collect for the Government the fullest information with regard to irregularities that had to be provided against, and with respect to which the officers ought to receive definite instruction. The convention had that afternoon passed a very emphatic and unanimous resolution against the proposal to do away with elective licensing committees. Tha very strong feeling wf" that the mind of the people should be represented oa i^ r 'ioansino; convni^iees, and,

the Legislature had specially arranged for that by removing the element of bins and making it lav^ ful for committeemen to pledge themselves beforehand to the policy that they proposed to follow. The only thing that the "trade" generally seemed . to fear was the power of the people behind the licensing committees, and therefore there was a very strong feeling that that- power should be maintained. Ho thought also that 55 per cent, of the votes should be quite enough to compel the temperance party to get, instead of 60 per cent, as at present. Further, they urged that the law should be made to reach people who were found on licensed premises during closing hours without lawful excuse — a law that was in force in England, and that the police here had frequently asked for. An amendment of the law was also required to prevent the moving of licenses for a greater distance than a quarter of a mile. That law was defective, and was frequently got round- Another thing they had to ask for was that scientific physiological instruction regarding the action of alcohol should bo imparted to the children in ou*r schools. Mr. R. French (Auckland) urged that the provisions of the Shops Half-holiday Bill should apply to liquor bars, and that the necessary powers should be given to the police to deal with the sale of liquor in the King Country. Rev. T. G. Hammond spoke partjeu-lai-ly irith. regard to the sale of liquor in the King Country. Tho convention regarded the compact made so long ago between Tawhiao and the Government of the colony as a holy compact, and it regarded the fact that that compact had been broken as a distinct disgrace upon us as a people. They did not blame any one in particular, and were prepared to accept their share of the blame with the people of the colony. The fact remained that the colony entered into a compact which they had been unable to carry out, and were declaring themselves imable to carry out. The lapses that had occurred in the King Country were largely due to the public works policy, under which they took into the King Country men who were perhaps not the choicest kind in the world, and whose influence had been decidedly disastrous on the native population. The convention was fully persuaded that a system of licenses would nob meet the necessities of the case, because they were satisfied that under license the natives in some districts which they knew of were able to get access to as much drink as they liked. They felt; they had a sacred trust in this matter. The natives had come to them as an organisation, and implored them to do what they could to save the people. They asked the Premier to save these people. He was sure they would not appeal to him in vain ; they knew that his sympathies "were with them. Rev. F. W. Isitt said they wanted to see the employment of barmaids abolished ; they did not feel that behind a bar was a fit place for any of their sisters in this colony. They also wanted the licensing laws enforced in the areas .where no-licen/se had been carried. Further, they wanted the ballot-papers to be safeguarded. Speaking generally, there had been no safeguarding of the ballotpapers, which in many cases had been left to get to their destination at haphazard. Mr. James Allen, M.H.R., said he earnestly desired that the Premier would at the very earliest opportunity introduce legislation to validate the poll at Bruoe. Mr. T. E. Taylor, M.H.R., smoke of the enforcement of the law in no-license districts. They held, he said, that the moment no-license had been carried the enforcement of the law should be immediate and absolutely impartial. They held that the Executive had no right to have any opinion at all on the liquor question in a no-license district, that the law once declared for by the people was above all individual opinion and above all Executive opinion, and it was the duty of the Executive to spare no expanse or effort to see that the will of the people was given effect to absolutely. The will of the people once expressed, the police force and the Executive and every other part of the machinery of government should be used as efficiently as possible to give effect to it. They were not vindictive, but they declared that the time had come when the sympathies of the Executive or any member of it should not stand in the way of its laws when the people had decided. Mr. J. M'Lachlan, M.H.R. for Ashburton, said that three-fifths of the people of Ashburton had declared no-license, and he was* going to support them. Mr. Barber, M.H.R. , urged that the jjeople of Newtown should be given again the opportunity of expressing their opinion on the licensing question. The Premier, in the course of his reply, said it was not in the power of any one to say that the sympathies of the Executive had prevented the law being given full effect to in no-license districts. The facts were entirely against such a contention. In regard to the Clutha, whenever any matter had been pointed out instructions had been given by the Minister for Justice to the officers in charge of the police, and they had, if anything, caused a revulsion of feeling through their endeavours to see that effect was given to the will of the people. Turning to the matters mentioned by the deputation, he said the fault did not lie with the Government, or with those who administered the law. The difficulty was in the law itself (Hear, hear.) They had found that in the working of it, and so had others who held views different to those of the deputation, and it was reasonable where those had been found to come to the head o,f the Government and ask that the law should be perfected. It was the bounden duty of the head of the Government to see that the laws were perfect, and that once the will of the people had been expressed, effect should be given thereto. The deputation had dealt with something like fifty points. He did not intend to reply to them now, as they demanded mature and careful consideration, besides which it would be necessary to consult his colleagues about them. There was, however, one question of paramount importance — namely, that there was no means by which a vpoll could bo taken after the poll had been declared void through irregularities. He thought that omission was accidental, and that the oversight occurred through the Legislature applying the local bodies election legislature to such cases. The question then arose as to whether any amending legislation should be made retroactive. That was where the difficulty lay. Mr. James Allen : Will you give me facilities for bringing in a Bill? The Premier : You have the same freedom as the Government or myself. Years ago, he continued, he endeavoured to do away with the bottle licenses, which he considered did more harm than the hotels. As regarded the definition of "bars," there were, he said, many more bars now than when there was a different interpretation put upon the law. As regarded the carelessness of Returning Officers, he was with them entirely. It should not be in the power of any individual, wilfully or negligently,, to destroy what the people had decreed. There should be a careful selection made of persons who had to act as Returning Officers. He believed it would be better to have Government officials acting as Returning Offi■rs, because they had a better hold upon them than upon strangers, and they would be more careful in performing their duties. He . agreed as 'to penalising. ' Any person found guilty of negligence, or who wilfully wronged the people, should have heavy penalties imposed UDon him.. He could scarcely realise that.

what had occurred could have happened through the negligence of officials. However, on thut point he thought he coidd speak with no uncertain &ound, and thereby help them. The selection of Magistrates to hear disputes hud been decided ux^on in order to save expsnse and to secure quick despatch. An amendment was required, in which direction it was not for him to fray, but he thought that in the interest of all parties there ought to be some change. He was of opinion that clfb charters should follow the decision of the people; there was a doubt as to whether the Colonial Secretary had power to cancel the charter of the Ashburton Club. ! and the sooner that doubt was removed < the better, in his opinion, it would be for all concerned. Now he was gomg to go further than any of them. If they were going to stop the sale of liquor in no-license districts he would allow no one to have' liquor in his house. Section 33 would never stop it, but if they made it illegal for any one to have it on his premises it would remedy *a defect which at present exists. Coming to the question of the native race, he said he gave place to no man in his desire to save that people. When the compact was made with the Rohe-Potae it was understood that the railway would be put through, and that the Maoris would remain there alone. That was changed now, and they had to remember that that part of the colony was going to be settled by Europeans. Settlement was going on very rapidly, and the people there ■would demand the same liberties as were given in other parts of the colony, to say yea or nay on the licensing question. Mr. Taylor: It's a no-license district to-day. The Premier: It's only no-license by Order-in-Council, by the will of the Ministry of the day. They might have a Ministry, like that of to-day, which carefully gave effect to the wishes of the people, .and they might have a Ministry of different views. This was a question that ought to be removed from the shoulders of the Ministry and be made a question with which the Legislature should deal. Whether they should have separate legislation dealing with that question it was not for him to'say now, but at present it was in a very unsatisfactory position. As to the natives in the King Country, something ought to be done, but he wished to defend the cooperative men against the aspersions cast upon them. The men employed were the same men who would have been employed if the works had been done by contract. At any rate, men who were found selling liquor to their fellow men. were dismissed. Rev. Mr. Hammond: That bears out my contention. The Premier went on to say that if the licensing laws were made applicable to the King Country section 33 would obtain. Mr. Taylor: You will have to carry license in the King Country before you can carry no-license by a three-fifths majority. Tlib Premier: The first question would be license or no-license. ■ Mr. Taylor: By a three-fifths majority. The Premier agreed. The representations of the deputation would have the fullest consideration of himself and his colleagues. The Rev. F. W. Isitt said he and those who thought with him did not agree with what the Premier said about the prohibition of liquor in private houses. They did not fight the individual more than they could possibly help ; they fought the traffic. They dealt with evils that arose from the traffic in liquor. The Premier said there need be no mistake as to the viewa he held. He said that they could never give proper effect to section 33 so long as men could bring liquor into their homes. In the course of a subsequent discussion, the Premier said he had never gone back on his contention that he would allow the natives to vote on the question of license or no-license. The deputation, which had lasted for two hours, thanked the Premier for his careful attention to the expression of their views and withdrew.

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