HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. YESTERDAY'S AFTERNOON SITTING. MINISTERS AND THE GOVERNOR.

Evening Post, Volume XLIV, Issue 47, 24 August 1892, Page 4

HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. YESTERDAY'S AFTERNOON SITTING. MINISTERS AND THE GOVERNOR.

On tho motion to go into Committee of U Mr. y> EOLLESrON thanked the Premier for affording an opportunity to discuss the correspondence relating to the Legislative Council appointments, and hoped the Housu would rise above Party, and express ita opinion on tho position unurged by tho -whips. He expressed astonishment at snob, a position having arisen at this Btage of tho colony'B history, after its statesmen had fought for the great principle of Ministerial responsibility nntrammelled by diotation from the Home authorities. He hoped that the Houao would not now, for the sake of political expediency, sacrifice all these men had fought for in the past. Beferring to tho correspondence itself, he thought that the style and manner adopted by Ministers -was open to criticism, and tho adviae tendered to His Excellency was misleading. (Hear, hoar.) It involved an abrogation of the power ot the House and the colony, in referring the question to the Colonial Office. The Government had endangered the doctrine of the responsibility of Ministers, which was tho palladium of Colonial liberties, and they had acted improperly in not accepting tho nine appointments offered them. Ho could find no parallel precedent for referring the matter to the Colonial Offiop, It was claimed that there was a precedent jn the history of the North Atnorican Colonies, bu£ in that oase special provision was made in their Constitution for reference to the Secretary of State. Mr. Rolloston quoted a large number of instanoes in which it was held that the Colonial Office had stated that in all such coses the matter should be decided locally. Ministers should either have resigned or elected to defend tho Governor's action. They jauntily quoted a passage from Tod to deliver them from their extraordinary position, but he considered that no constitutional precodent should abrogate the right of the pooplaand representatives of the colony to deoido tho matter for themselves. Ministers gayo up the whole position by permitting this to be a matter of Imperial instead of local concern, and so referring it to the Imperial authorities. (Hear, hear.) Ministers by their refusal of nine members of the Council had left it to the country to consider that they did not carp for the passing of their measures, provided they wore able to retain their seats. H.o considered it a very questionable thing to sneak of members of the Legislative Council in the manner in whioh they wore spoken of by the Premier in this correspondence. The Premier had boasted of his great Bill reforming the Legislative Council, yet the gentlemen who passed that Bill were those who were described as obstructing tho will of the people. Nearly every liberal measure brought in by the present Government had been originated by some of these gentlemen, and where they refused to carry certain provisions, as in tho Land Bill, Government had since admitted the correctness of their judgment by abandoning those provisions. The Council had not refused to pass the genuine Policy Bills of the Government, such as the Land and Income Tax, If the principle of this Government potting in twelve men of "the right colour" were admitted now, and eaoh Government were to follow the preoedent thus laid down, the Counoil would become an arena of Party strife. Ministers had sacrificed principle to Party considerations and their position on the Government bonches. The correspondence showed neither consideration for the people of New Zealand nor for the Governor, who had just como amongst them. It was a blot upon the colony that advice should have been forced upon him within two days of his arrival in the colony. (Hear, hear.) The PREMIER said that wjth regard to the last statement of Mr. Kollestou, His Excellency had in his hands a despatch from Lord Onslow with respect to the question, so that he was prepared with information upon it. He doubted Mr. Rolleston's asseverations respecting the non-Party character of his treatment of the question. He knew whilo he was speaking in this way what would be the effect of an adverse vote upon tho Government. Mr. Eolloston contended that Ministers bad endangered the Constitution by referring this matter to the Secretary of State, yet this very oolonial statesman whom he had quoted bad referred the question to the Home Government. Government had abrogated none .of the functions of the House and of Ministers, and j had upheld all along the principle that so ; long as Ministers had a majority in tho , House their *dvico must prevail. They had followed a welkbeaton conrse in referring the matter Home, And had not taken from the House the right jto express an opinion upon it, for that right would remain when replies were received from th# Home Government. He had never quoted thp North American precedent referred to by Mr. Eolloston, as it did not apply. When Mr. i Eolleston said that the appeal was to the j Honao, did he mean that the Governor ] should dismiss his Ministers, or jbhat they I should resign ? He would show that by the Constitution Aoi Government were bonnd to zefer the question to the Secretary of State. He quoted the cue of Sir George Grey respecting Mr. Wilson in 1877, when the Marquis of Normanby hnd held that tho qnestion of the refusal of advice as to the appointment of Mr. Wilson was not sufficient to canae him to resign. Mr. Eolleston bad taken them to Uf-sk for .advising the Goyornor two days after his arrival, but would it not havo been a mora unfriendly course to have resigned and placed him face to face with a constitutional crisis, and without Responsible Advisers, so soon after his arrival in the colony? The Premier quoted a number of precedents and provisions given by Tod to justify the conr/sa adopted by Ministers. As for the constitutional bearing of the right of referenda to the Saor.otary of State, Mr. Ballanoe quotod the memorandum submitted by him to tho Secretary of State last year as to the exercise of the prerogative of meroy coming tinder the constitutional rule by which the Governor must accept the Ministerial advice and admit Ministerial responsibility. (Hon. members — " That was a special case.") Tho Seoretary of State replied that if the consont of all the other Australian colonies was obtained this would be conceded. That consent was obtained, and the Secretary of State issued new regulations giving effect to his (the Premier's) recommendation. That was an instance of reforring to tho Secretary of State. (Mr. Eolleston — That was » question of modifying an Imperial regulation.) If that was asking a modification of an Imperial regulation this was a case of asking an interpretation of such a regulation. (Government applause.) Mr. Ballance went on to

quote a large number of precedents durinjf llio Governorship ot Sir (ir-orgi- Orov for tlio roterenco of (|ues',ionx roHpoclmg tho M.iori prisoners to tho Secretary of Stuto. He also quoted the direct reference by Sir George (rroy, as Superintendent of the Auckland province, of tho quostion of tho Abolition of the Provinces to the Secretary of State. The Blue Books wore studded with such precedents, and the Home authorities had expt eased approval of thoir reference to thr-m. The Secretary of State was not a foreign authority, but a part of tho Constitution of the colony, and it was his duty to advise Hor Majesty upon overy Bill which passed tho New Zealand Legislature, and he might advise hor to reject any Bill. The regulations guiding the Governor woro drawn by the Secretary of Stato. Mr. Ballance went on to quote precedents in the hibtory of Canada. Proceeding to consider the constitution of tho Legislative Council, ho hold that tho Council had been stuffed with rank Party men, bound to oppose every Liberal measure, and placed in the Council by opponents of Govornment Ministers existed on snfforance of the Counoil, and sent up their Hills to them with fear and trembling, not knowing at what moment thoy might be sent back. Mr. Rolleston cared not for tho privileged of tho Houso or the country ; ho cured only for tho welfare of his own Party and MisowncluiM. Govornment had appealed only to Ciosar, and whon Ctesar had upokon their resources woro not exhausted. They woro told that members of tho Upper House had created tho Liberal measuron of this Government. They woro told that a member of that House had punned the Conciliation [{ill, but tho Bill which that member had introduced watian abortion. It was not a Conciliation Bill, but an Arbitration Bill. He ridiculed Mr. Kolloston's statement to a reporter in favour or tho establishment of an elective Upper Chuinber. Such a Chamber would bo dangerous to tho liberties of tho people, and would defy tho popular Chamber. They were told that the Council was a Liberal body, yot a message bad just been handed to him stating that it had just thrown out the Eight Hours Bill. (Laughter.) Government woro protecting the rights of the pooplo. They were acting in accordance with precedents laid down by Sir George Grey and other statesmen of the colony, and thoy looked to the good sense of the House and tho peoplo to support them in what thoy had done. Mr. O'COXOR said thoy were told that this was not to be treated as a Party question, but it was evident from the speoches thoy had just heard that they were in for a good Party fight. He strongly dissonted from tho Premier's statement that to elect the Uppor Houso would abridge the liberties of tho people. Thoy would both como from the poople, and if it was wrong to elect tho Upper Houso, why, wa3 it right to elect the Lowor House. (" Hoar, hear," from Sir John Hall ) Thoy had changed tho constitution of tho Uppor Chamber by creating soven-year terms, and it. was proposed to fill that Chamber with tlio tools of tho Promior of tho day. Did tlio Promior proposo to raise up a despotism in this colony ? They were told that this was not to be a Party quostion, but ho subm.ttod that it would be voted on purely as a Party qnoßtion Members never considered tho merits of the quostions thoy voted on, and tho vory worst measures had boen those passed by tho largest majorities. The House as at presont constituted could never be hold to express an opinion upon any measure. He would move, as an amendment, " That Government bo requested to introduoo as soon as possible this session a moasuro to provide for tho election of tho Legislative Council, and that, pending tlio passing of such a measure, no further appointments be made to tho Council." On Mr. O'Conor sitting down no other membor rose, and there wore ories of " Question " from all over the House. Mr. ROLLESTON suggested that Miniators should express an opinion upon the amendment before tho yoto was taken, and that with the introduction of this now element, it wonld bo advisable to adjourn till 7.80 (it was then 5 o'clock). Tho PREMIER declined, and tho quostion was about to be put, when Mr. MACINTOSH roso and objeoted to an elective Uppor Chamber, especially if it was to bo elected on a freehold tranohiso, as in Viotpria. The present system should be maintained, and Government should secure the equalisation of Parties in tho Upper Houso. The House adjourned at 5.20 p.m. Evening Sitting. On tho House resuming at 7.30 p.m., Sir GEORGE GREY said he wished to disabuse tho minds of members from certain erroneous statements of the Promior. In tho early days of the colony the Crown possessed largo powers vested in the Queen and the Secretary of State. The Queen delegated hor powers to the Secretary of State, but he posao3sed no such powers as the Premier had attributed to him. The Queen had the power to confer titleß subject to the approval of Parliament, and the Premier had agreed to certain of these titles in a way that ho was not justified in doing, and in a manner whioh he (Sir George Grey) had refused to do when Premier— that was, to merely copy the appointments from the London Gazette without reference to Parliament, The case of the native prisoners was a case under military law, and was not as described by the Premier. The Premier aIBO had incorrectly described tho case of Mr. Wilson. That was a pase-in which the Crown hold that a poor could not be oroated while a vote of want of confidence was pending. He considered tho Houso had been unfairly treated in referonoe to tbo Council difficulty whioh was pending last year. Though Liberal opinions had boen very warmly expressed by Ministers, thoy were not active in securing the passing of Liberal measures, and did not show anxiety to pass them. Their practice was not equal to their profession. (General oheore, including Labour members). Tho Council question could have been settled while Lord Onslow was here had Ministers been in earnest, but tboy lej; the opportunity paBS, and made a pretence of securing Liberal legislation by sending up measures to the Council, confident that they would be i ejected. Ministers waited till anew Governor came, who knew nothing of the conntry, and they went to him and asked him to assent to a proposal whioh ha probably looked upon as revolutionary and dangerous to the liberties of the colony in swamping the Oouuoil. The Premier, he supposed, told him thaX he had the confidence of the House — he no doubt had its votes. The Governor no doubt considered that it would not be right to accede to such a proposal without referring it to the people of the colony. His Excellency showed dosire to consult with some leader on the other side. It was the duty of tho Premier to have given him this opportunity, and then bo might have boon able to gee the position from all points of view. When Ministeis decided to take such a step as to send this matter Home, they should have instantly informed the House. (Cheers.) It only remained for the House to immediately take the matter again into its own hands, simply sonding notice Home that this had been dona, and then healing any breach between tho Governor and his Ministers. The House should then set itself to work to reform tho Council, and to carry out those groat measures pf reform which ep nearly concerned the people of $he colony. Mr. G. HUTCHISPN said that the amendment of Mr. O'Congr y/ould successfully prevent the House for tfrjj time being from giving any expression of opinion upon the course of Ministers. Now they would have to wait till the papers reached England, and might be thrown into a Ministerial crisis in tho last few days of the session. The Premier was not well advised in quoting the oas#B flf the Maori prisoners and of colonial titles. These wore Imperial questions. The partioufcjra pf the Wilson case were against, not for, the Promior, as were the Quebec cases quoted by him. Referring to the main question, Mr. Hutchison said that it was the duty of Ministers to defend the Governor and to be responsible for his aots, but they bad the utterly unconstitutional position of Ministers occupying the benches £o defend themselves and not their mast.er, and saw thp Governor with absolutejj[ no one in the House to defend hifl position. Mr. Hutchison went on to discuss the claims of the Premier as set out in the correspondence, and condemned his use of the terms Liberal and Conservative, which savoured of burlesque. Thero was no Party in that House who could be described aa " Conservatives." Neither could Ministers be described /is Liberals. The true Liberals were not on tlio Govornment benches. The House might bo mort* correctly divided into " Ministerialists " and " frpgressists." Sinoo the present Government came into office, therp bad been six deaths in the Council. This mado the twelve asked for still more disproportionate and still more calculated to revolutionise the Council. Condemning the manner in which the Premier referred to the Counoil, Mr. Hutchison said that the only policy measures referred to by tlje Premier in the correspondence were the Electoral Bill and the Land Bill. Thoso were no longer policy measures, for tho matters to whioh the Council took exception were now eliminated. He was not aware that the Eight Hours Bill quoted by the Premier was a Government measure. Tho letter No. 13 contained warped, distorted, and sophistioal argument, The Premier had threatened j dissolution, bnf; he knew that he could not dissolve. It was a Constitutional maxim that tho Governor must have Responsible Advisers, and the Premier conk} not go to the country while holding offioe. $he Gov- ! ernor would simply have sent for the gentlemen on the opposite benches. (Cheers). The MINISTER for PUBLIC WOEKS said the last speech was ono made for purely Party purposes. Had the speaker been on the Government side he would have made a much more convincing speech, and quoted much more convincing authorities. Sir G. Grey's proposition .was impracticable and unconstitutional. Sir Ge,orjf,o had accused tho Government of not introducing Liberal measures and not gojpg for jsnougrh. Others accused them of going too far. The crowded Ordor Paper and the Bills they had passed were the best answer to this. They could not havo settled the mattor while Lord Onslow was hore, as it was necessary, in fairness to the Council, to test it by sending up measures. Sir George must know that it would be impossible to recall the correspondence. Ministers had never treated tho matter .as p.n Imperial concern, but always as a local concern. They had merely asked (tfeo Secretary of State for a dry legal opinion apd an interpretation of the Constitution, and this was fully within thoir rights. Mr. Seddon proceeded to contrast the majority possessed by Government and the position of the Governments of Sir George Grey and Sir Harry Atkinson when appointments were mado. He contended that the House had shown its desire for the passing of the Ejgrht Hours Bill, which the Council had rejected by 16 to 4. The position Government had taken up in this correspondence they meant to maintain. Tho Governor had no doubt been animated by the best motives, but His Excellency was mistaken in bia opinions. No one could contend that it was in the iutoroats of tho country that the Council shonld be kept in its present inefficient position. (Captain Russell — "Why don't you put in the nine, then P ") Nino were not sufficient. To bring the Council to a state of efficiency would require 15 or 18. How moderate, then, was the demand for 12. After going at considerable length into

authorities on tho question, Mr. Seddon concluded that it would not ]ia\u been right for Ministers to have aliowu'l any personal feeling to lead them to resign. Ho believed that in the courte Government had adopted they had tho support of the country. (Cheers). Sir JOHN HALL «aid that, althoug-h the Minister for Public Works had stated that they had referred the question to the Secretary of State for a dry legal opinion which would settle the matter onne and for all, yet tho Premier had said that if the decision was against thorn they would take other steps. It was not honourable where two parties submitted a d hpute to a third, for one to say he would not abide by the decision. The Premier had spoken of the Council in a most discreditable way, an'l accußed them of standing in the wav of reform, by rejecting policy measures. Yet Government had admitted the Council right, by removing from the Land for Settlement Bill, the Land Bill, and the Electoral Bill, tho objectionable clauses to which that Chamber had taken exception. A second Chamber was necessary to prevent too hasty legislation. Ministers would not dare to go to the country on tho quostion of withdrawing tho right of purchase, to which the Council had taken exception. He showed that the Eight Hours .Bill had been rejected by Councillors nominated by Ministries of which the Premier was a member. He had always advocated an olectivo Socond Chamber, and if it wore eloctod it would meet the wishes of the majority of the Council. If Government really desired to strengthen their position, they would have accepted the nine appointments. They were wrong in referring the matter to the Secretary of State. No blame was attachable to the Governor, who endeavoured to hold the scales evenly between all Parties. The Premier, speaking at Auckland in 1891, and referring to the Council appointments, naid that if the Governor refused Ministers' advico they would follow the Constitutional course, and allow others to take their places, as it would bo undignified to do otherwise. Had the Premier changed his opinion since P The MINISTER for LABOUR contended that the position of the Bills referred to by Sir John Hall was not as he had shown. The Council not only tacked 19 amendments on to the Land Bill, but they had also rejected the Workman's Lien Bill, the Shop Hours Bill, the Womanhood Franchise, and the Land for Settlements Bill, and had mutilated the Electoral Bill and the Land Bill, and made the Factories Bill almost useless. This session the Council had rejected useful Bills like the Testamentary Trusts Bill and tho Eight Hours Bill. Government could not control His Excollency, but could appeal from tho nominee to tho nominator. Had the Ministry resigned they would have boon handing over tho governmont of tho country to a Ministry which did not represent tho majority of the Houso or country. Mr. SCOBIE MACKENZIE traversed the arguments and statements of the previous speaker. He would havo liked to see a resolution moved to the eftect ' " That the question of the Legislative Council appointmpnts is one which should be decided by the poople of New Zealand, and that a letter should be despatched to the Secretary of Stato withdrawing it from arbitration." Suoh a resolution would discover the truo Liberals. Mr. SHERA condemned tho attitudo of Ministers. Tho amondment respecting an elected Legislative Council was then put, and lost by 31 to 8. Tho following are the division lists :—: — For tho Amendmont — Messrs. Duthie, Guinness, Hall, Harkness, O'Conor, Rhodes, Rolleston, Wright. Against the Amendment — Messrs. Ballance, Blake, Bruce, Buckland, Buick, Cadman, Carncross, Carroll, Duncau, Earnshaw, Fish, Fraser, Hall-Jones, Hogg, Houston, Joyce, Lawry, J. M'Kenzie, M'Lean, Meredith, C. H. Mills, Moore, Pinkerton, W. P. Reeves, i'andford, Saundora, Seddon. Shera, E. M. Smith, W. C. Smith, Tanner. Pairs : Against tho Amendmont-B. Roeves, M'lntosh, Parata, Kapa, Ward, Rees, Dawson, W. Kelly, T. Thompson, Taylor. For — Richardson, Swan, Taipua, Valontine, Wilson, Russell, Buohanan, Jas. Mills, Lake, Allen. Tho House then went into Committee of Supply, and progress was immediately reported, and tho sitting terminated at 1.30 a.m.