PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, 10th September.

Evening Post, Volume XV, Issue 213, 11 September 1877, Page 2

PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, 10th September.

After we went to press yesterday, Mr. Cox proceeded with his explanation relative to the Taupo block speculation, in which Mr. Ormond charged Sir George Grey with having received a share in consideration of having used his influence as Governor to promote the undertaking. In 1867 he and several other gentlemen waited upon Sir George Grey (who was theu Governor) to see about the purchase of this block of land. At one of these interviews Sir George said, " Would it in any way interfere with your operations if I ask you to allow me to join in your venture?" The answer was that there was no objection to this. On a subsequent occasion, Sir George acted as if he considered himself a partner in the speculation, and pressed upon his co-partners the necessity for erecting schools for the Maoris in the district. A week afterwards, nt a meeting of the gentlemen concerned in the transaction, Sir George Grey said, " Geutlemeu, I must ask to be allowed to retire from this partnership ; for I cannot afford to give my enemies a chance of saying that I have been engaged in anything which was capable of wrong construction." With that absolutely ceased the connection of Sir George Grey with the affair. If it had been stated, or implied, in that House that Sir George was ever to receive a share of the land as a bribe for using his influence, that was an obsolutely mistaken statement. (Applause.) Ultimately, the difficulties in the way were so great that the company was dissolved, and he (the speaker) aud Mr. Whitaker, who had become one of the partners, had ta pay money to cover the preliminary expenses, without receiving one penny in exchange. He h*i previously referred to this transition, to prove that Sir George Grey was inconsistent in his views upon the land question, but he hnd never insinuated that his connection with the company was in any way improper. With reference to the letters upon this subject, of which so much had been said, they were purely and solely the property of the company, and were merely addressed to Mr. Locke as their agent. He, as a member of the company, had a perfect right to them. Some time ago, he had said to Mr. Ormond that those letters would bear out all he had ever said, and he then told him (Mr. Ormond) that he might see them. He did not suppose that they would be used in the manner in which Mr. Ormond used them, and had he been present, ho certainly should have objected to the course taken by his honorfriend, though he made every allowance for the peculiar circumstances in which Mr. Ormond was placed. — Mr. Macfarlane supported the Government in their action, reminding the House that Mr. Rees was a solicitor employed by the natives. He advocated the Supreme Court as a better medium than a Parliamentary Committee for the investigation of the complaints of the Maoris. He moved "the previous question." — Mr. Hursthouse confirmed the statement of Mr. Cox, that he had, in mentioning the circumstances, distinctly stated that he imputed no corrupt motives to Sir George Grey. — In reply to Mr. J. C. Brown, Mr. Cox stated that the company intended only to lease the land for grazing purposes; also, that he had given no authority to Mr. Ormond to read those letters in the House, to quote from them, or to produce them. — Mr. Orraond said that his statements had been borne out by Mr. Cox (oh!). He had merely said that Sir George Grey, when Governor of the colony, had taken part in transactions in certain native lands (oh, oh). With reference to the letters, he had had a different account from Mr. Cox to that given by him now, and he obtained nothing new from the letters. He never understood that these communications were in any way confidential, and had told Mr. Cox that he intended to speak upon the subject this session. In one respect he was under a misapprehension. He thought that Sir George Grey was much longer than a week in the company ; but, save on that point, he could not withdraw any of the statements he had made. He had been blamed for replying in the way in which he had done. But he asked the House to remember the very great and gross imputations which, time after time, had been cast upon him by Sir George Grey and Mr. Rees. His position on the Treasury benches had prevented him replying earlier; but when he found that every newspaper from the South was teeming with these charges, and asking whether they were to be taken as proved because no reply was made, he could withhold no longer.- Similar attacks had been last session levelled at one of the best of men — Sir Donald M'Lean — and they had killed, him. The House had chosen to reject a motion moved at his instigation, which would have caused the fullest investigation into the charges made against him. To appoint a committee to inquire into all transactions in land in Hawke's Bay, would be merely to go behind tho Supremo Court, and he, therefore, hoped the House would reject the motion. He did not believe that any satisfactory solution of these charges would be found until a Royal Commission, whether composed of Supreme Court Judges or otherwise, was appointed. — Mr. Bunny said the impression left on his mind by Mr. Ormond 's first speech, was that Sir George Grey was to receive improper reward for his services. From the tone of that speech, he and the House had inferred that these serious charges could be proved by those letters. Mr. Ormond now said the letters told him nothing now ; the House, therefore, could not be satished until they were laid upon the table. — Mr. Barff exposed further discrepancies , between Mr. Ormond's speech and his replyj and spoke strongly of the gross imputations made by that* gentleman in cold .blood. The conviction on his (Mr. BariFs) mind as the result of the debate, was a conviction that Mr. Ormond had got the worst of it, for his statements had all been contradicted and refuted, while the charges against him had been strengthened. — Mr. Lusk supported the motion. He pointed out that the Royal Commission of 1871 had not settled the question, and that in the teeth of the recommendations of the Judges, large sums of money had been paid to the natives to stop law-suits. — The Hon. Mr. Bowen, in a quiet and gentlemanly address, deprecated tbe personal tone these debates assumed ; and pointed out the strong imputations cast upon the Government both collectively and individually, in those finding some excuse for the manner in which Mr. Ormond spoke. He pointed out that these lands acquired by his honorable friend had not increased more in value than lands purchased from the Crown, and therefore it was to be presumed that a fair price was given at first. — Mr. Carrington and Mr. Hodgkinson supported the motion. — Mr. Woolcock thought it too comprehensive, saying that it would cause a large per centagc of the settlers of Hawke's Bay to be summoned to the House. He would support a committee to inquire into the land transactions of Mr. Ormond as a Minister of the Crown, but he tailed entirely to see what they had to do with the dealings of private individuals in native lands.— Mr. Montgomery, at some length, condemned the language used by Mr. Ormond, and expressed a hope that that gentleman would, even at the eleventh hour, confess he was mistaken in the charges he had made. Sir George Grey explained that the Taupo block -was thrown open at the request of the natives themselves, and the lease was fixed by them at 21 year 3. He had forgotten the exact circumstances attending the negotiations, but was willing to accept Mr. Cox's account of the conversations. He did not remember anything of a proposed partnership, and his impression was that there was some mis.understaudiug relative to the partnership. ' 'He would ask that the letters should 'be produced. [Mr.' Cox : Certainly.] From what he had heard, he believed the production of the letters would be greatly to hfs advantage. In conclusion, he wished to impress upon tho {fou.se that he always, as in this instance, fa.you.ped the leasingiof native lauds, to prevent the natives selljng their birthright.— Mr. Rees, in reference to the charge of Mr. Ormond, that he was an absconding debtor, said that some years ago he became responsible for some debts, which fell upon his shoulders. Pressure was put upon him by political enemies, and he was obliged to meet his creditors, and make an arrangement by which, he avoided the Bankruptcy Court. He hail since been gradually paving off these debts, aud in a year or two ißoro all would be liquidated, He then prooeeded to refute other statements of Mr. Ormond.— A division was then called for, and taken on " the previous question," which was carried by 41 to 34 votes.— Mr. Stout gave notice of the same motion for Thursday. — The House then went into Committee on the Education Bill. At half-past 12 o'clock, when the House adjourned, nothing had been done.

THIS DAY. In reply to Mr. Wason, the Hon. Mr. Orroond stated that the locomotives had been altered so as to try and use native coal on those lines which hate been specially constructed on account of the -coalfields. Sufficient time had not yet elapsed to show whether the experiment resulted in greater economy.