MR. STAFFORD AND MR. LUCKIE.

Daily Southern Cross, Volume XXVIII, Issue 4787, 30 December 1872, Page 3

MR. STAFFORD AND MR. LUCKIE.

The following interesting correspondence has been published : — " To the Editor of the 2velson Examiner : Sir, — I have to thank Mr. Luckie for having, in his recent speech to the electors of Nelson, brought together most of the incorrect and fallacious statements which have at various times and places been made respecting my party and myself ; to which statements, as made in detail, it was of course impossible to reply. Taking these allegations in the order in which they are reported, I note that Mr. Luckie would have it inferred that I asked or desired Mr. Vogel and Mr. MoLean to join my Ministry, which, however, those gentlemen declined to do. No opportunity for so declining was in any way given to Mr. Vogel by me, or by any person acting for me, or with my knowledge. With respect to Mr. McLean, some members on both sides of the House did, in the debate on my resolutions, express a desire that he should act with me ; and I believe that after the resolutions were carried some of the members who had expressed that desire asked that gentleman to do what he could hardly be expected to have done, namely, to desert his party daring the heat of a party contest. It is scarcely necessary to add, that no communication whatever passed between Mr. McLean and myself. Had I desired a coaX lition with the gentlemen in question, I could easily have effected it by accepting the offer made to me by JAv. Fox, in the previous session, to join him and his colleagues. Mr. Luokie professes to account for his having at one time supported and afterwards turned against me, on the following grounds, namely : — 1. In 1865 I professed to be able to make large savings in the expenditure (the inference I presume being that 1 did not make any). 2. I promised to support Provincial institution! ; threw myself into the arms of the Provincial party, bnt soon deserted what he terms the 'camp,' even to taking away the provincial three-eighths of revenue. 3. The passing of the Public Debts Act. 4. I was silent in 1870 and 1871. 5. t was totally unfitted to take charge of native affairs. My ( reignj' had been more or less characterised by native disturbances, which others had to quell. In a pamphlet published by Colonel' McDonnell certain words were by me. With respect to the above statements I have to observe — 1. I did what I professed in 1865 — I and my colleagues having made large savings in that and) subsequent years— as * comparison of the annual estimates will, prove. < 2. I neither made tbo promises as to Provincial jnstitutions, nor did the deeds imputed to me Toy-' Mr. Luokie. When Mr. Weld resigned, in 1865, and Sir George^Grey asked me to form a Ministry, I was pressed to do so equally by members who favoured Provincial institutions and by members who were opposed to them — as Mr. Carlefcon, Colonel Haultain, Mr., Oolenao, and others. I made no promise save one — made spontaneously — and that was to as far "as I could,', the unity of the colony, which promise I have fulfilled to the present day/ In my address to the electors of NelBon,' before I was returned at the head of the poll, v no promise to ■upport Provincial insti> lutioni w*i intdt by me,, tbo only *§ f#f»$«

to the, provinces being an assurance that they would receive, for that year, threeeighths of the Customs. Neither did I take away the three-eighths of Customs ; that was taken away by Mr. "Vogel, whom for the present Mr. Lnckie professes so much to believe in, and who when he took it in 1870 promised to give the provinces for five years a capitation allowance for every person in each province, .^ar^ing^fioni^ £2 JfcOjjyi, 10b., which -promise was broken 'in' the very next year, when he reduced the allowance to 15s. only. 3. With respeot to the Publio Debts Act, unfortunately for Mr. Luckie'a position he had turned against me before that Act j was even introduced, and the strongest supporter of the Act was and is Mr. Luckie's present friend Mr. ,Vogel, who had in the two previous sessions brought ths subject before Parliament in connection with the debentures of the provinceof Southland, which werehypotheoated to the Bank of New South Wales. 4. The allegation that I was silent in 1870 and 1871 is not intelligible. Both in Parliament, as shown by " Hansard," ' and by speeches to my constituents at Timaru in. both years, I appear to have spoken pretty freely with reference. to the Public Works and Immigration scheme. I fear much that, whether I speak or whether I am silent, I cannot hope, for the present at least, for Mr. Luckie's approval. - 5. With respect to my fitness to deal with native affairs, Mr. Luckie's competency to judge may possibly be doubted by everyone but himself. As to native disturbances which may have existed when I was in office, the first disturbance originated in an act of the Governor (who at that time had complete control of the native policy); an act committed, not, with 'my advice or knowledge, but with the advice of Mr. McLean, given while I was absent from New Zealand. I did not leave that disturbance to be quelled by others, but it was quelled while I was in office, and for some two years peace prevailed, until war again oocurred when Mr. Domett's Ministry was in office, and continued during that and the succeeding Whitaker-TTox and Weld Ministries, until I succeeded Mr. Weld in 1865, at which time it was in full operation on both East and West Coasts. War was quelled while I was in office, and peace obtained, until broken by the acts of Titokowaru on the West Coast, and the escape of the prisoners from the Chatham Islands— an escape muoh more justifiable in its circumstances than the escape of the prisoners from Kawau, when Mr. Fox was in office. A second time the war on the West Coast was quelled, and that on the East Coast all but so before I left office. I never read, and, probably, never shall read, Colonel McDonnell's pamphlet, but persons who have done so, and who are competent to judge, have told me that it abounds in misstatements of facts and positive untruths. Judging from the words attributed to, but nover uttered by me, I am inclined to believe that the pamphlet has been properly so characterised. — I have, &c, E. W. Stafford. Nelson, December 9, 1872."

*• To the Editor of the Nelson Examiner: Sir, — In his letter in your columns the Hon. Mr. Stafford takes exception to certain statements made by me in my recent speech to the electors of Nelson. He defends certain actions attributed to hijaself, and denies his connection with others, but is eloquently silent respecting other subjects, for which even his ingenuity fails to discover the semblance of excuse. In the introductory paragraph he is good enough to supply information or explanations regarding my brief allusion to the 'intrigues set on foot to secure Mr. McLean and Mr. Vogel, to detach them from their own party and bring them round to coalesce with. Mr. Stafford.' The explanations are in themselves contradictory, and plainly suggest, if they do not openly state, a meaning different from known facts, and the suggestion of which is an example of a disingenuousneaa which marks the letter, and of which I have a right to compl»in. Mr. Stafford desires to make it appear that members of his party , who waited on Mr. McLean and asked him to join Mr. Stafford, did so * during the heat of a party contest. ' This ia not ia accordance with fact. The party contest wa*s over. The Government had been defeated and had resigned j Mr. Stafford had been sent for, and was engaged in constructing his Ministry. The adverse vote was taken on the 5th of September ; the deputation waited on Mr. McLean on the 9fch, after the struggle was ended, and when Mr. Stafford and his friends, not unnaturally, were looking forward to at least a year's lease of office. Mr. Stafford, as he says, may have had no direct communication with Mr. McLean ; but he does not pretend that he was ignorant of this negotiation, which was well known among members on both sides of the House, both before and after its occurrence. "The mistaken offer of the Fox- Vogel Ministry to Mr. Stafford to join that Government, is referred to by the latter in a manner leaving it to be inferred (he does not state so) that, having declined that offer, he would not have accepted Mr. McLean. Observant members know better than to draw such an inference. Had such inference been warrantable, why was Mr. McLean waited on at all by strong supporters of the Stafford Ministry ? Moreover, Mr. Stafford's position, when invited to join Mr. Fox, was a very different one from that he occupied when Mr. McLean's aid was solicited. In the former case, Mr. Stafford would have been a Minister under Mr. Fox as Premier ; in the latter he was himself the head of the Government which he was endeavouring to complete. Besides, the history of some of his coalitions does not argue excessive delicacy on the part of Mr. Stafford in such circumstances. After the defeat of the Weld Ministry he was constrained, much against his own wishes, to accept Mr. J. 0. Richmond as a colleague ; and he appointed Mr. Fitzherbert aB Treasurer, after proclaiming that gentleman's utter incompetency for that office. I come now to the categorical averments in the letter. " 1. The Alleged Savings of 1865-C6. — These savings have not to my mind been clearly made outj and Mr. Sewell, Mr. Stafford's own recent colleague, to this day entertains a like opinion. While professing to know somewhat of figures, I fail to comprehend the so-called explanation which Mr. Stafford gave, and it is a remarkable ciroumstance that a general unbelief on this point prevails among the members of the Assembly. At best, the savings are ' Not proven;' and Mr. Stafford has warranted such a verdict by, time after time, making contradictory statements on the subject, both as to the figures themselves and as to comments upon them. "2. Mr. Stafford's Professed Provincialism in 1866.— I affirm that both Mr. Saunders and myself were most distinctly led to believe by Mr. Stafford in 1866. that he would' uphold provincialism on the old basis, otherwise neither of us would have, supported him as we did. " He says that he promised * for that year' to pay the threeeighths of Customs to the provinces. We clearly understood that no change was contemplated. The phrase ' for that year only' was an after-thought offered by Mr. Stafford as an • explanation' to his dissatisfied constituents hero in 1868. He informs your readers that' it, was Mr. Vogel, and not himself, who' took away the three-eighths. It is ourious to observe how the exact ' truth may be narrated,' and yet, by the, omission of another truth, sometimes the reverse of fact may be cleverly instilled into a reader's or a hearer's mind. Mr. Stafford, it ia true, did not succeed ia taking away the three-eighths from the province ; but he tried his utmost to do ««>» and was only defeated in his intention by the volceTrf^Barliament. His Treasurer, Mr. Jollie, brought forwa«%jL_Drpposal to do this as partfof his budget scheme^*.^;^ Staf-ford-admitted that he concurred in ana-jv ao responsible for that, proposal. The House rejected it ; Mr. Jollie - 'Was sacrificed, and i retired from office. Mr. Stafford also sacrificed- his professed'opinions and prin-. ciples ; - but he retained office, and took to hHs ! 'arms as Treasurer him whom he had christened a 'babe' in finance— Mr. Fitz- S hertierV Probably - Mr. " -Vogel ■,- found thaii the long course of insidious assaults made- <ou< 'provincialism' f by " profeised »nd ftjue friendi, coupled with toe coat oj

the wars which the mistaken policy of Mr. f Stafford " and his.^ friends had forced on the colouy, together with the exigencies of his Public Works scheme*— in the advantages of which, it mast be remembered, all the provinces are participating— had rendered Provincial reductions a necessity. Mr. Stafford however ' remembered to forget ' that the Fox-Vogel Government took over aa a eoloni*l charge the legal, £!ustomB, immigration, and other expenditure previoualy provmcially charged. "3. The Public Debts Act. — Itis asserted in the letter that Mr. Yogel was a supporter of the Public Debts Act. His support, such as it was, did not make that mistaken measure either wise or just. I am not responsible for Mr. Vogel's opinion, nor concerned in defending him where he is wrong. 'I think -he was wrong in that opinion, and particularly wrong in basing his support ; o£ the measure — asl find by ♦Hansard' he did— on the supposed effeot of the Governor's assent to Provincial Acts authorising Provincial loans. It is true that Mr. Vogel on that occasion erred in good company, that of the Bight Hon. Robert Lowe, now Chancellor of her Majesty's Exchequer ; but it was nevertheless an error, as I Bhall proceed to show. 1 In 1865, a Committee of the House of Commons considered the subject of our Provincial loans. Mr. Sewell was examined, and Mr. Lowe said: 'Are the ordinances [Provincial Ordinances] assented to by the Governor ? If so, the Governor assents to these loans, and he is bound to see that the colony meets its debts.' Coming, though these sentences do, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and adopted, as they were, by the Colonial Treasurer of New Zealand, I take leave to say that the idea they convey that the Governor's assent to the Acts bound the colony for either the debt or the interest is an utter fallacy. Were it otherwise, Southland debentures would never have' fallen to 73 or 74, when New Zealand Colonial debentures were at 106. A British municipality is as much a part of the local government of England as a province is a part of New Zealand. Before a municipality can borrow money for local purposes, an Act of the British Parliament, passed by* both Houses, and assented to by the Queen, is necessary, just as it is in the case of a railway company, or a harbour or dock trust. But the assent of the Crown to such an Act in no wise renders the Exchequer of England liable for a penny of the interest accruing, or of the principal raised under any such Act. The idea that it did was wholly a mistake. There is no guarantee, neither was there in the matter of provincial loans until the Public Debts Act undertook them, at a sacrifice of some £200, U00 or £300,000 to the colony, and to the great benefit of speculators, who received a present of from 30 to 40 per cent, over the current prices of provincial debentures. So far as any opposition of mine to Mr. Stafford waB concerned, his parentage of that Act only added to already ex» isting causes ; and it formed the crowning act which filled the measure of that dissatisfaction with which his Nelson constituents plainly evinced they regarded him. "4. Mb. Stafford's 'Silence' in 1870 and 1871. — The hon. gentleman catches at a mere figure of speech. I did not mean that he was mute. No one who knows him can imagine that. I mean that ha relinquished his position as a leader, when, in 1870, he left the Opposition to the guidance j of Mr. Richmond, while he himself seemed j to sulk indecisively in the shade. " 5.— Native Policy, and Mr. Stafford's unfitness for native management. — i adhere to every word I said on this subject, notwithstanding Mr. Stafford's assertion that my ' competency to judge of hi» fitness to deal with native affairs may be" doubted by everyone but myself.' It may. But, if so, why should he have taken any trouble in so elaborately debating such »n opinion ? It is, however, the fact that the House was astonished at Mr. Stafford's assuming the charge of the Native Department, and the opinion I expressed as to his unfitness was and is very generally shared. The reasona are not far to seek, and some of these are furnished by his own letter. I shall not he tempted to re-discuss the Waitara war dispute, though, were that desired, f am perfectly prepared with the whole history, and the facts that are contained in the bluebooks. That war waB entered upon on the urgent action of Mr. Stafford's colleagues, by -whom Governor Gore Browne was pressed to take steps which, in the existing circumstances, should never have been taken, Mr. Stafford approved of that action, and followed it up on hia return from England. If he did not approve, his duty was to resign ; but ; resignation of office was never one of Mr. I Stafford's conspicuous virtues. He says that that war was undertaken on the advice of Mr. McLean. I am not aure that the history of the transaction bears this out ; but, granting that it were so, that does not make the affair either prudent or right. Twelve years ago, Mr. McLean was only a subordinate officer ; and Ministers are responsible for their own decisions. Mr. Stafford says that he ' quelled ' that war. The war was not quelled. A discreditable truce was arranged, most disastrous to the prestige of Europeans and of European arms ; and the seed-plot was formed whence sprang the plentiful crop of disasters which were brought to full fruition in the Poverty Bay massacres, and tho concurrent sacrifice of life and treasure elsewhere. If evidence were wanting of Mr. Stafford's deterioration as a politician, it is found in his having the courage to declare, at he does in his letter, that the escape of the prisoners from the Chatham Islands was ' an escape much more justifiable in its circumstances than the escape of the prisoners from Kawau when Mr. Fox was in office.' It is a new doctrine in ethics that one error is justified by another, when neither has any connection, except that both spring from lack of vigilance and neglect o£ duby. Neither of the escapes was 'justifiable,' for neither should have taken place. Regarding the prisoners at Kawau (placed there on the urgent recommendation of Sir George Grey), no harm resulted from their escape, nor was any expectation of,^danger entertained. In the Chatham Islands" affair, Mr. Stafford had ample warning of danger. Ho was warned of the threatening appearance of the prisoners, and urgent applications were made to him for reinforcements. He disregarded these warnings ; no reinforcements were sent ; Te Kooti escaped; and we all know the results, for which results Mr. Stafford is in no small degree responsible. As for Colonel McDonnell's assertion respecting Mr. Stafford's remark, * I don't care, the sooner the better, ' &c, made in i relation to the threatened destruction of Patea, I quote from Colonel McDonnell's letter, written on his unexpected return to Wellington when he was supposed to be in Australia, and in which letter he re-asserts the accuracy of his original statement. He says :— ' I simply state, once and for all, that when I re-assert this — as I most distinctly do — I as firmly believe I state what took place, as that I am now alive.' Compare this with hia deliberate and graphic narrative of .the interview, at which he declares the words were spoken ; and with the ill-judged expressions which Mr. Stafford, in the fulness of his heart, permits his tongue to utter ; and the public will arrive at some conclusion which will not ha far from truth. There are other analogous reasons for any belief I may hold on this subject; but, meanwhile, I leave that and the other matters diacusged to the judgment of your readers. I have to apologise for the length of this letter, which has considerably exceeded my intended limits. — I am, &c, D. M. Lr/OKiE, Nelson, December 16, 1872."

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