AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 23.

Daily Southern Cross, Volume X, Issue 670, 29 November 1853, Page 2

AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 23.

Adjourned debate on Mr. Busby', motion relative to Land Claims, $c, >3tf&2£!gS2?*" ******* Mr, Boylan.— ln moving for an adjournment of thi* question, I was not aware that it would have devolved upon me to open the debate to-day, or I should have left it to some gentleman whose longer residence or greater knowledge would have enablcdlim to do justice to it; for I was then under the impression dT™ should have to discuss the whole question of the land claimants This impression has been since removedand I boheve tlus 6ouncil has to do only S Se motion of the hon. member for the Bay. iTis motinrT? rise to oppose, on various grounds. A

.* what should liave been three distinct ru,fl motions are embodied in one. logH ?n^ i i — Becaxise it contains five distinct charges against | Sir George Grey, to the truth of which this Council a» vould have assented by the simple granting of the ajfl committee ; and, having absented to the truth of these Jofl charges, they thpn ask lepve to take evidence. ■ j^—Beeanse'l believe it -will injure the land claimants 'cafU ' themsehes. ■ ir on ourable membors will pardon me if I speak plainly, ■ J,it as I mean no offence, I trust none will be taken. ofl « tt t let us suppose that this committee were granted cj t the CouncU, what weight would their report possess ? igfl j^ hon. gentleman who moves for a committee is a oi^d clrimant of European celebrity; three others, 12M pakin? four out of the seven, are land claimants ; and, i]el , s far as I can see, all the witnesses are to be land **■ .jaimants. Now I say that a report of such a consti~J ivted committee would be received by the Council with H 'teat cautio.i. And suppose that tliis Council refused 1 I '0 adopt the report of such a committee, what position Jthen would the land claimants be in? Why, their %■ opponents would say that, on the very spot where these ■ grievances occurred, a popularly constituted Council ) I refused to entertain them. Besides, I should like to M know what rig\t any one has to constitute himself the ' I knight errant of the Hnd claimants without first conI lilting them. Some of them might fancy that their ■ c :ainis would be as speedily redressed if they forcbore I to heap charges upon the head of a Governor whom the ■ hon. mover has shown to be so powerful at home. I I a land claimant, I would refuse to be identified I in any way TU^h a committee constituted upon the ■ motion of the hon. mover. Why, land claimants them- ■ se lves, members of this Council, object to it, and what I ficrht have we to force them into it. Besides, all the M claimants are mixed up together ; the old land claimants ■ then may think that their claims should have first ■ consideration. The pre-emption claimants will say, ■ "No; w'ehoughfrour lands on the faith of a British 9 governor,— that faith has been violated,— we have not I rot our lands ; or, where we have got them, the fostering ■ rovernment, in the spirit of an Irish tithe proctor, has ■ taken their tenth — sometimes from our gardens—some- ■ times fiom our frontages — and sometimes from the ■ very middle of our farms. But, whilst I admit the I great injustice done to many of the claimants, I think I the hon. member has been premature with his motion, ■ and, in my opinion, it should be postponed. It may be I stited, that it is a hardship to the land claimants to I postpone it. It is a hardship that they should not have 1 justice done them ; but they cannot consider it a hardI ship for the Council to postpone this motion, as it is as I much an act of grace as an act of duty this Council en- ■ to-taining it at all, when there is the General Assembly 1 to refer to. Besides, there are other classes in the I community suffering greater hardships than the land I claimants. When a bounteous providence has given I us a climate salubrious beyond all precedent, with ■ springs bubbling and bursting underneath our feet, I this Council is flying in the face of that providence I when it allows a portion of the community to I dwell in an impure and vitiated atmosphere, and to I depend upon the charity of their neighbours for their I daily supply of water, at this very instant that we are I sitting discussing an impracticable motion, our unI drained city is positively inviting the approach of I typhus fever. No summer ever visits our shores, but I it finds parents mourning for those children which the I winter and the spring hath snatched away, and the I medical gentlemen of Auckland will bear me out when I say that three out of ten of these deaths can be directly traced to our want of the commonest sanitary precautions. To argue that these people are not suffering greater hardship, is to argue that waste land is of more importance than human life. Again, sir, when ive consider that there is one ward in the city, from which Government has derived £34,000, and has not expended £200 on roads, where the levels seem to have depended upon the state of imagination of the Surveyor, whether his ideas at the time were lowly or exalted — where one of the principal streets is approached from the sea by four ladders. When we consider that with £50,000 worth of potatoes to export this year, we have not three continuous miles of good road to cart them on ; that six square-rigged vessels have been in Kaipara at one time ; and that there is not as much as a bridlepath by which communication can be kept up with the city, although the business must be done at our Customs ; that our last great source of wealth, the 1 Ifanukau, lies undeveloped from the mere want of aa lagement, that although our young country is possessed of a principle of vitality that could never be destroyed, she is still but in a state of coma, and that fhe hopes of the people centered upon this Council, that it would awaken her from her mesmeric trance, and start her fairly upon the race for wealth and honor. When we consider These points, we cannot be fairly accused of injustice to the claimants, if we postpone the question in every shape, until all these matters are disposed of; but if we determine that they shall have our first attention, the non-land claimants, by far the most numerous body, will naturally say, that individual members of this Council were too eager for personal redress ; that others joined them. Mr. Clarke said, I offer for the consideration of Council, a few remarks upon, the motion before them. I was led to suppose, from what fell from the hon. member, as well as frorc. the motion itself, that the Ordinances generally were defective, and of no validity ; hut the hon. member confined his remarks to one, viz., Land Claims Ordinance. I never was an admirer of that Ordinance, and had always thought that a more liberal construction, and consequently a more liberal legislation would have been adopted. Stringent, however, as the Ordinance appeared, my objections were confined to the way in which its enactments were carTied out by the Government. It is due to the > Government to observe that they must at that time have teen greatly embarrassed, not only by the acts of the Hew Zealand Company, but by many others, who upon the earliest enactments of the colonization of New Zealand, made pretended purchases of millions of acres, and one gentleman in New South Wales, (Mr. Wentworth) is said to have purchased for a mere trifle, the whole of the Middle Island ; doubtless these purchases materially influenced the legislators, and led to a more stringent Ordinance. I differ altogether from my colleague in considering that Ordinance of no legal force, for this reason, that it is by adoption, the act of the British legislature. Every Ordinance (see Charter, 1840,) passed in the Colony, is by the Secretary of State laid before H.M. Privy Council for approval, and after that, before the Parliament to be legalized. I should therefore, have hesitated designating our legislature ignorant, stupid, and i?icompetent persons. Not very complimentary this to her Majesty's advisers, whom it might be difficult to persuade that all legal discernment and competency was vested in a member of the Provincial Council. I doubt whether, if the Council were unanimous, it would not be a hopeless case to attempt to persuade the British Parliament that they had been sapping the foundation of the Constitution by the allowance of the Ordinance. But it must be obvious to the Council that the hon. member had other objects in view beyond that of sweeping the Statute Book. Nothing less than the impeachment of Sir George Grey. I do not stop to enquire whether the statements made by the hon. member were correct or incorrect. I neither affirm or deny them ; I neither apologize nor eulogize Sir George Grey ; but Ido deeply regret that they should have been brought forward at this time. The Council is just in its transition state, passing from the general Government to the Provincial. An immense deal of business is on hand ; the whole machinery of Government at a stand-still, and waiting for the CouncU. to proceed with their measures, in order that it may move on. If there were' any cases of oppression and hardship before the Council, calling for immediate attention; if our table had been loaded with petitions and complaints from our fellow citizens, I should have been one of the first to have moved their consideration; but I observe nothing of the sort, and I do not think that our constituents sent us here to impeach Sir George Gr->y at the expense of urging provincial business. I do therefore, regret that at such a time the hon. member should press his motion upon the Council. But my objections to the motion are still greater upon the ground on which it is proposed to give it effect. I observe that, of the gentlemen nominated to form the committee, several are objectionable; it would look like a packed jury. I dislike packed juries ; fair play is a jewel. I will explain myself, and I "will begjin. with the mover. It must be evident to the Council, from what fell from tne hon. member in the course of the last debate, that there were, at least in appearance, strong personal feelings against the Governor, and, in my humble opinion, ever objectionable expressions. If, therefore, it should be thought fit to grant a committee, I should object to seeing the mover one of that committee ; it would but prejudice the whole case. With respect to the present speaker, it is a well-known fact that, for moie than eight years, there have been political differences between him and the Governor ; there has been a painful litigation carried on for years with him. It is well known that he has sustained serious iniuries through this litigation. And, though he is not conscious of entertaining the slightest ill-feeling against Sir George, and it is contrary to his nature to harbour an unfriendly spirit, even when injured, yet, unacquainted as the public are with these facts, they would scarce give him credit -for these remarks, and must, therefore think him an improper person to form one of | euch a committee as is sought for. This matter he

the Queen and Parliament. But, sir, as' l have been personally rofurred to as having been so'tnixed up with these land claims as to have an " European reputation." I think that was the word. And tbe'n again, as to my unfitness to sit upon such a committee, as an interested prrry ; and after what has been 'feaid of packed juries, and the like, perhaps, the Council will expect from me some account of my connexion with these land claimante. Sir, more than twenty years ago, I was sent to this country as the King's Resident; and, in that capacity it was part of /ay duty to assist, as far as lay in my power, the negotiation of fair purchases of lands from the native owiyis by her Majesty's subjects who resorted to this country. When my office was discontinued, the Secretary* of State instructed Sir George Gippa, the Go-vernor of New South Wales, to inform me of the new arrangement, and expressed a hope that it would be in his power to offer me a suitable appointment under his Government. Sir GeoTge Gipps, in communicating this information, expressed in very flattering tei'ns, has sense of my services, and the pleasure it would afford him to comply with Lord Glenelg's , iisir action, which he on another occasion, said, '• amounted to a command." When Captain Hobson did arrive, be brought me a letter from a member of the Executive Council of New South Wales, informing me that the opinii n of the writer, who was known to be a friend of mine, had been asked whether I would accept the office of Colonial Secietaiy under Captain Hobson, and the writer of that letter did me the honor to say, that from his knowledge of me, and from what his own feeling would be on the subject, he would say decidedly that I would not. lie then went on to say, that an officer of high responsibility would be required as Chief Commissioner to investigate the claims of individuals to land in this country ; and that my experience would render me a fit person for such an office. Now, sir, I am not entitled to say that this letter was written with the concurrence, or even with the knowledge of the Governor and other membexs of the Executive Council, because it was a private letter. But I have no difficulty in expressing my belief that had I been able to accommodate my views of justice, and right to the measuies adopted by the Government, I might have had the office of Chief Commissioner, and continued to this day in that, or some other office of high responsibility, instead of living in obscurity and retirement. Well then, sir, with respect to the land purchased by myself, Sir Geoige Gipps distinctly intimated to me that if I were willing to put my claim upon the ground of public service, he could recognise it, but that if I should maintain it as a legal claim, I had no ground to stand upon. Sir, I would not abandon the other land claimants, to whom I had stood in such a relation as gave them a claim upon me for the protection of their rights. I petitioned to be heard by the Council of New South Wales against the bill. And as the honorable membei for the pensioner settlements has said, I did address that Coiuicil ; and, perhaps, at as great length as I did this Council upon the iniquities of such a measure ; and of the baneful effects the exhibition of such injustice would have upon the minds of the natives, who, until that ill-omened measure, relied with pei feet trust upon the uprightness of the British Government. Well, sir, such being the circumstances, the observations which have been made, or any observations which can be made as to my judgment being warped by my interest are perfectly innocuous. They cannot disturb \my equanimity even for one moment. And I hope the I Council will excuse me for occupying so much of their [ time. But, sir, I do not refer to any member of this | Council when. I, with a personal matter, endeavour to expose so great a fallacy as that it is impossible for a man to judge rightly where his own interests are concerned. It suits well the purpose of some men to adopt [ and maintain such a fallacy ; and, sir, I think it is indisputable that there are men who have no faith in ; human integrity ; men, who if they can discover a point at which the path of what they call personal interest (meaning pecuniary gain, or political advancement) diverge from the path of duty, fix upon that ' point as the instantiwn cruc is of human conduct. There is in the mind of such men no farther room to doubt ; they assume it as an axiom that the path of duty will be forsaken, and the path of intexest followed. There is nothing more remarkable in the despatches which have been brought under the review of this Council, than the axiomatic- adoption of this conclusion. i Well, sir, the hon. member for the pensioner settlements has read to us that Sir George Gipps issued a proclamation, and founded his ordinance with, respect to these land claims, in compliance with the Queen's instructions. Now, what I have asserted and proved, by those instructions themselves, is, that the part of Sir George Grey's measures which did injustice to the land claimants was an express violation of those instructions, as well as of the laws of England. Sir, the hon. member for the city has enlightened us as to the duty of the Council in providing sanitary measures for the city ; and he would lead us to believe that to entertain these land claims would be incompatible with what he holds to be the higher claims of J the citizens to health and comfort. Sir, lam ready to j unite wLh the hon. member in every practicable measure which can preserve the health and comfort of the citizens ; but the language of the hon. member would j lead us to believe that these land claims would cause a pestilence in the city. Sir, I fear that the moral atmosphere of the city, and of the colony, is polluted by the way in which these land claims have been dealt with. | I have no doubt, sir, that the iniquitous conduct of persons in high places has seriously demoralized this community. (Here the speaker was interrupted by cries of " order.") Sir, I must claim the privilege of using language which will leave no room for mistake as to my meaning. It is not, sir, a matter of indifference for me to offend the ears of the members of this Council, or of others, by the use of such language ; it is not a ; matter of indifference to me to meet the averted eye, i which would have been turned upon me with kindness. But, sir, I speak from a sense of duty, to which all other considerations must yield. Mention, sir, has been made, in the course of this debate, of impeachment. Why, sir, if providence had placed me in such a situation as to make it possible for me to impeach Sir George Grey, I do not believe I could have slept quietly without impeaching him. It has been objected to my motion that it ought to have been divided into three — the old land claims, the pre-emption land claims, and the crimination of Sir George Grey. My intention, sir, was to make my motion comprehensive of all cases where injustice had been done. And, sir, while life and health is afforded me, I shall not give up this question, till every one who has suffered wrong, in any shape, shall have justice. I consider justice to be the paramount object of all government. And it is the especial privilege and duty of a British legislature to see that justice is done. The hon. member for the city has drawn a glowing picture of the beauty and fertility of this district. Sir, there is no one who looks with greater pleasure upon the beauty of the landscape, and the evidences of prosperity which it affords, than I do ; but I cannot forget that I come from a district that would have smiled in equal fertility, and perhaps greater beauty, but for the Government which exposed its inhabitants to the ravages of war, and drove them away by its injustice. I would remind the hon. member that, beautiful and fertile as this land is, there is a land which once far surpassed it — a land which was once the glory of all lands, but which now lies in desolation and barrenness, under the curse of the Almighty, because its princes and legislators forsook , the paths of righteousness— because they refused to ' " seek judgment, to relieve the oppressed, to judge the J fatherless, to plead for the widow." I trust, sir, this will not be the case with us. I trust the members of this. Council will bear in mind that material prosperityis not, of itself, sufficient for national, any more than it for 't i individual, happiness. Now, Sir, there is one point to which I must still advert, viz., the magnitude of these claims, and thelaboru which it will cost the Council to enter into them. Th.3 Middle and Southern Islands were taken possession of by right of discovery, and ni them no legal title could exist but by the allowance of the Crown. These therefore do not come within the scope of my motion. And as to the other extensive claims made in this island they never have been and never can be proved to have been acquired by a valid title from the native proprietors I speak only sir of such claims as were obtained on equitable conditions from the aboriginal owners. I again advert to the fact brought forward and proved from authentic documents that out of H5O claims which had been investigated only Bor 9 were disputed. I know nothing sir in history parallel to this. I know nothing more remarkable thi n the st. aightf jrwarduess and integrity of the natives, in maintaining the bargains they had made, unless, it be the humiliating contrast afforded by the conduct of the functionaries appointed by the British Government in dealing with those bargains. What I propose sir, is that the committee should take evidence in one or two cases of each class, and make nn interim report with a Petition to the Queen and Parliament which, if adopted by the Council,might be at once transmitted to England accompanied with the evidence taken ; after which the Committee might proceed with their labours, during the sitting of Council, in order to be prepared as far as possible for the decision of the Queen s Government, I have already said, sir, that I consider it absolutely necessary to go to the very fountain head of justice. Ido not expect justice from any other quarter. The Council may rest assured that though this question may be delayed it will never bp i

stance, liberal prices; but Governor Grey came and deprh ed him of an immense extent of his territory, offering some trifling payment in return, which was indignantly lefu&cd. That land was then, as it ig now* exceedingly valuable, so much so, that lately seven acres of it w ere sold for £2,000. Is this, and such Me cases of extieme hardship, to be stifled to -meet the wishes of hon. members ? I hope not. Let this Council, if "possible, administer content. Let truth, divested of all extraneous matter, find its way to the feet of Her Majesty, tell its unvarnished but harrowing tale, and, if need be, upbraid the author of so much unhappiness. I consider that the widow's acre, and the settler's honestly purchased farm, ought to be as dear to us as the interest of a Governor. I think that no member of the Provincial Council ought to stand up and thwart injured colonists in seeking redress for grievances. I think it is mistaken kindness even to make the attempt to evade an investigation. A sincere friend of Governor Grey's would have demanded the mil utest examination, and the strictest scrutiny into his i üblic conduct, instead of endeavouiing to escape from it. I believe that those cases of alleged hardship ought to be examined, and, if the Governor is Linocent, it will do him. a great amount of good ; on the other hand, if he be guilty,_the d.-c.sion of the Council will make him a wiser man. Mr. Coimell said— Mr. Speaker.— before you put the question on the amendment before the Council, I b< q permission to offer a few remarks. And first, Sir, I must express the disappointment I felt at the speech of the honourable member for the City (Mr. J. O'Neill) who has just spoken, that he who so constantly professes a desire to draw tight the purse strings of the Province, should recklessly assent to a resolution which if once affirmed by this Council and acted on, would annihilate for many years, the whole available revenue of the Province, is so totally at variance with his iisunl lone on question;* involving expense that it fills me wi h surprise. I regret, Sir, that any discussion has arisen on the motion of the honourable member for the Bay of Islands, as it would in my opinion hive been preferable if the Council had at once that the questions included in it ought not,tp have been introduced here at all, seeing that we have no power to deal with them. I think it right before the votes of the Council are taken, to endeavour to recall oui minds to the question at issue, and to consider what -will be tie consequences to ourselves and the constituencies we represent, should we be led by the eloquent pleading of my honourable friend the member for the Bay, to affirm the propositions contained in his motion. ' Whether the introduction of some of the topics contained in that address, and the personal invective that characterised their introduction, was consistent with good taste, is a question on which I shall offer no opinion : but of the cleverness with which the whole matter has been arranged and brought forward, there can be no question. But let us consider what it is that the honourable member asks us to do. Reading through his motion we find that he wants a Committee to enquire, but recurring to the first paragraph of the motion, we find that he asks the Coimcil first to affirm his proposition, and then to enquire about it. Pirst to declare that certain Acts are illegal and unconstitutional, and should be declaid void and having done so, and pledged ourselves to all thu consequences of such a resolution, then to institute an enquiry as to whether they are illegal and unconstitutional or not. Again, Sir, the learned member has adioitly. availed himself of the feeling which exists on the subject of the pre-emption claimants, by blending with them in one question the class of land claims, in which he is himself more really interested. He hns made the most of the wrongs of this class of claimants, and has availed him&clf to the utmost of the case of the Widow of Onehunga. But, sir, the motion before us is not confined to the compensation to which the Widow of Onehunga may be entitled for her four or five acres, — it comprehends much more —it comprehends the thirty, and foity, and fifty thousand ' acre claimant", some of whom, Mr. Speaker, sit at this table. Sir, I believe that much hardship has been suffered by some of the pre-emption claimants, and if the power resided in this Council to redress their wrongs, I should be glad to ha\ c their cases fully enquired iuto, and both •sides of the question fully heard ; for I must observe, Mr. Speaker, in reference both to these and the other claims, that the public have never heard more than the claimants' side of the question, — the Government never laying before the public the reasons and aiguments upon which its proceedings have been founded j and, alluding for a moment to Sir George Grey, whose name has beon so frequently brought into this discubhion, I cannot but regret that he has deemed it rigHt, instead of taking any means to explain and justify to the people of this country, the course which he has, in various instances, thought it his duty to puisue, patiently to wait until the course of events should afford such explanation, and. refute the imputations that have been cast upon him. But to return to the motion before us. . I must oppose this motion, Ist. because it appears to me to be wholly irregular, embracing, as it does, so many and so important questions which, if to be entertained at all, should have been brought forward as separate and distinct questions. 2nd. because it professes to appoint a committee to enquire, but, in reality, first pledges the Council to the affirmat've of the very important questions respecting which enquiry is sotight. And 3rd. because it calls upon the Council, to take up questions upon which we have no jurisdiction — to assume to itself functions which the constitution of the country assigns to the General Assembly. [The hon. member here entered into a lengthened statement of the early histojy of the colonization of this Province, and the speculative devices of the settlers of the neighbouring Colonies to anticipate the purchases, and consequently the genuine claims of the honafidc New Zealand colonists.] The seconder of the motion has told us that he has a fivepound grievance to complain of, and my hon. friend the mover has candidly admitted that he also is an interested party. He has not informed us in what amount, but it is not difficult to compute from the data furnished by the Returns on the table, that were the Council to affirm the piinciple contained in this motion, the hon. member's claim foe compensation would not be far short of £15,000 ; and this the claim of one only of the many whose claims would at once start up, in formidable array, if this Council once affirm the principle contained in this motion. If it be established that Sir George Gipp's proclamation was a wrong, and that the acts which followed upon that proclamation were contrary to the principle of British law, and should be expunged from the statute-book and to this extent the hon. member's motion goes, then we cannot shut out the conclusion that all these claimants for millions of acres will have a clear right to be heard and to be compensated. Now, sir, I would ask, and would entreat the Council seriously to consider, the question, whether our constituents ever intended that w r e should entertain such a question as this. And whether it would not be much wiser to leave the question to the General Assembly, in whose hands the Constitution places it, and from whom, if properly brought befoie them, it will, 2 o doubt, receive such consicL ration as it merits. If tl G Council consent to petition Her Majesty and the British Parliament, that compensation may be awarded to all complaining land claimants in this Province, there cannot be a doubt but the thing will be done — but ■« c know pretty well from what source the compensation will be derived. We know from what source the funds were to be extracted when the New Zealand Company persuaded the Government that they were entitled to compensation. And if we ask Her Majesty and Parliament to permit us to compensate, they will gratify us to the very top of our bent, by passing an Act saddling our Revenu& -with Land Claimants' compensation for twenty or fifty years to come. But I would entreat the Council to pause and weigh well what they arc doing — to consider whether it would be wise in them to act va. so important a matter, which does not properly come within their jurisdiction at all, and which is so vastly wide of anything that was ever contemplated by their constituentsin sending them here, or whether it would not be a more judicious course to devolve such a question upon that Assembly to whom it in reality belongs, by the Constitution of the country. Mr. Busby rose to explain that he sought by the motion compensation only for the pre-emption claimants. Mr. Connell, in reply, read the concluding lines of the motion, " and also, &c," and remarked that the hon. member, in his speech, said that he had made the terms of his .motion sufficiently broad to include e-very grievance, and it was difficult to see how, with the views he (Mr. Busby) entertained of the casG of the old land claimants, he could exclude them from the benefit ofthe motion.

Musical. — A Vocal and Instrumental Concert, under the direction of Mr. Davis, Master of the Band of the 53 th Regt., is announced to take place, tomorrow evening, at the ' Odd Fellow's ITall. A glance at the Programme wil, we incline to think, be sufficient to satisfy the lovers of sweet sounds that the selection has. been made with the utmost judgment and good taste-. We have no doubfc, therefore, that the audience will be both numerous and select.