PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

Dominion, Volume 25, Issue 171, 15 April 1932, Page 13

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

Deadlock on Arbitration Amendments MANAGERS OF BOTH HOUSES TO CONFER Further Debating on Expenditure Bill ’(From Our Parliamentary Representative.) The second reading debate on the National Expenditure Adjustment Bill was carried a stage further in the House of Representatives yesterday and members generally showed a kee desire to discuss the measure. There was a long list of speakers, and once again those from the Labour benches criticised the Government on the ground that legislation to bring about wages and pensions reductions was unnecessary. Unless the Prime seeks urgency to-day, the week-end adjournment which is expected to be taken at 5.30 this evening, will see the SeC °Practlc^lly^tlie n whole e a"fteriioon was occupied tn discussing amendments made to the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Bill by the Legislative Council, and a temporary deadlock having been reached on the amended clauses in’the Bill, managers were appointed to confer on tihe points at istue in an attempt to reach an understanding. Briefly, the amendments seek to enable employers to engage workets on the bonus system as well as on piece rates, and to make it possible foi disputes concerning women workers to be taken automatically to the Arbitration Court. There was much involved debating on the technicalities of legal terms employed in the amended clauses, even the Ministry hinting that although its intentions in having amendments Inserted had been carried out, the phraseology employed left something to be desired. The Labour Party was opposed to the system of bonus payments, but more will be heard of the points at issue after the conference of managers. , x vr One of the most interesting speeches of the evening came from Mr, J. Hargest, Government member for Invercargill, who expressed in plain terms his opposition to pensions reductions. He was followed by numerous Labour members who were critical of the Governments policy in general. No Ministers took part in the debate, which was adjourned at midnight until this afternoon.

FOOD FOR WORKLESS Surplus of Meat and Fruit WINTER SUPPLY PLANS Two questions relating to the supply of food to the unemployed during the winter months were addressed to the Minister in Charge of Unemployment, Rt. Hon. J. G. Coates, in the House yesterday. Mr. W. J. Polson (Govt., Stratford) asked whether the Minister would consider a plan-by which farmers’ unions in various parts of the Dominion, willing to enter into an arrangement with the Government, could deliver for purchase at the various local abattoirs good quality cow beef at prices to be agreed upon and which would be less than the market price for such meat. He said this would be a means of reducing the living costs of the unemployed, to whom the meat could be distributed upon the production of an order. At the same time, it would enable the farmers to obtain some value, however low, for their surplus stock. The Minister replied that he would be glad to go into the question and any other sehem.e that the Farmers’ Union might, submit. About 1200 bead of cattle had already been secured by the Government, but this would be insufficient for requirements. Mr. G. C. C. Black (Ind., Motueka) drew, the Minister's attention to the great surplus of fruit in the Motueka and Nelson districts, and he asked whether arrangements could be made for the Unemployment Board to secure supplies and to place them in cold storage for distribution during the winter. If this were not done thousands of bushels pf fruit would merely bo used for stock food or dumped. Excellent fruit could be made available to various relief organisations at a low cost. The Minister said the board was now • attending to this question, and he would see if something could be done in the direction suggested. DUTY ON WHEAT * Likelihood of Revision The Prime Minister. Rt. Hon. G. W. Forbes, informed the House yesterday afternoon, in reply to a question, that the Government was seriously considering the question of reducing or suspending the duty on fowl wheat. The question was raised by Mr. W. J. Polson (Ind.. Stratford), who , asked whether, having regard to the Government’s desire to assist the poultry far-' mers by reducing the wheat duty, and in spito of this reduction not having lowered the price of fowl wheat, the Minister of Customs would reduce the duty to the North Island, or alternatively, license the. importation of fowl wheat to poultry farmers through their organisations. Otherwise, he asked, whether the Government would take steps to see that these farmers received the advantage of the reduced price aimed at by the reduction in the wheat duties effected last year. The Prime Minister, replying on bebalt of the Minister of Customs, said inquiries were now being made in this subject. The ' Government, was advised that during Ajiril of last year good fowl wheat was quoted f.o.b. South Island for prompt delivery, between d/11 and 5/3 a The price f.o.b. South Island of fowl wheat during the present month had varied from 4/6 to 4/9J a bushel for prompt delivery. . . , It, was understood the quantity of fowl wheat avnikiblc this year was limited, and the question of reducing or suspending the duty on this commodity was receiving the careful consideration of the Government. ARBITRATION LAW House and Council DIFFERENCES OF OPINION Amendments made by the Legislative Council to the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Amendment Bill were considered by the House yesterday afternoon, the alterations relating mainly to the fixation of minimum rates of wages for women workers, and the introduction of the bonus system of payment in industry. The Minister of Labour, Hon. A. Hamilton, moved that the amendments be disagreed with. Mr. J. MeCombs (Lab., Lyttelton), moved as an amendment that ,tho Council’s amendments be disagreed with, with the exception of that relating to women workers. The Lender of the Opposition. Mr. H. E. Holland, seconded the amendment of Mr. McCombs, and said the altered Bill contained a new principle, that of a bonus system. This, he considered, would open the door to sweating conditions in industry, and it was worse than the clause as originally drafted, namely, that providing fo.r piecework conditions. Labour agreed with the Government in dissenting from this new clause.

The new clause relating to women workers provoked u long discussion. The Prime Minister, lit. Hon. G. W. Forbes, said the clause did not correctly interpret the intention of the Government, although the difference was largely one .of legal phraseology. Several Labour members objected to the Government’s interpretation of the women's conditions. The Council's amendment stated that “in the case of a dispute in any industry in which women Workers were employed,” the question of the rates of wages for women. should be referred direct to the Arbitration Court. The suggested amendment of the Government made the new clause relate to “industrles in which female worker* only”

were employed, and to this portion the 1 Labour Party took exception. The Minister explained that there was no ulterior motive behind the Government's intention to disagree with the Council. As the clause was now worded the question of women's wages in a given industry was liable to be referred to the court along with a general dispute in that industry, even though those wages might not be spocificially in dispute. It was proposed to remedy this. The House divided on Mr. McCombs’s amendment, which was lost by 42 votes to 29. A committee of managers, comprising the Minister, Mr. F. W. Schramm (Lab,, Auckland East), and .Mr. W. A. Bodkin (Govt., Central Otago), was appointed to go into the reasons for disagreement with the Council. PENSION CUTTING Opposition to Proposals MR. HARGEST SPEAKS OUT Disapproval with the Government’s intention to reduce war and old age pensions was expressed by Mr. J. Hargest (Govt., Invercargill), when the second reading debate on the National Expenditure Adjustment Bill was resumed last evening. Mr. Hargest said the Bill was excellent in parts, and be believed it was a genuine attempt on the part of the Government to reduce costs. It would be of tremendous benefit to people paying interest on their homes, and, generally speaking, it was a real effort to meet the crisis. It had apparently been forgotten that the Dominion was a debtor nation, and whatever we did within the country our standard of living was governed by external prices. If we had an interest bill overseas it had to be paid in the currency of the creditor nation, and no amount of argument could get round this fact. The forthcoming conference at Ottawa would he highly important and it would be essential for. tin: Prime Minister to tell the people at Ottawa that we had made a genuine attempt to reduce our costs and meet our obligations iu full. Discussing the provisions of. the Bill, Mr. Hargest said be approved of the principle of graduated wage cuts. It was right to place the burden of the reductions on the shoulders of those who could best bear it. But instead of saving £1,100,000 by wage and pensions cuts it would be better to increase the wage tax by threepence to 1/3 in the pound which would give another £750,000. About £400,000 would remain to be found and a cut of, roughly, 4 per cent, in the Public Service would yield this. In view of the circumstances, the rublie Service, would probably uot object to this. High Superannuation. Tho higher classes of superannuation could well be exploited for revenue-rais-ing purposes by means of. taxation. The great majority of supcrannuitauts received very little, but there was a great disparity between their incomes and those of the favoured few. Instead of receiving about £3OO or £4OO, as provided by the present law, some ex-Public Servants were getting up to £lOOO a year because of anomalies in the recasting of the super, annuation law iu 1009. He did not believe it was ever intended that these large sums should be paid, and at a time when contracts were being broken at every hand, it was reasonable to suppose that an effort should be made to do away with glaring differences. Those receiving large retiring allowances had not contributed to the funds anything like the amount that should entitle them to such high payments. The whole of the superannuation system seemed to be enclosed with a veil of secrecy, in spite of the fact that inquiries into its operation bad been held in recent, years. It was high time a full and open investigation into the position was made. If thousands of people were to be deprived of part of their small incomes under the Bill, it was not unreasonable to ask that the superannuitants with large incomes should be included. A Difficult Position. "1. here find myself iu an impossible position,” Mr. Hargest. continued, in turning to a criticism of the Government’s proposals to reduce pensions. "1 cannot, at a time like this stand for a reduction in soldiers’ pensions, and I also include old-age pensions. I feel that, at this time, it is placing a lot of us iu a very difficult position. Most of us realise the Government must have money, and in two cases J have pointed out to the Government where it can get Hint money. My ' criticism • has been constructive, ami I do not want to be destructive in my criticism now.” He considered that even during the present time of economic stress it was a downward step to deprive old-age pensioners of their allowances, and be knew in liis district that the taking of 1/9 from the pension of the old and infirm would mean the difference between some of the comforts of life and a very few. He felt they should explore every avenue j before they deprived the old-age pension- | ers of the little comfort there was for them in the remaining years of their life. Discussing the proposed reduction in war pensions, Mr. Hargest said be realised the Government was not touching the soldiers' pensions, but it wits depriving the widows and children of some of their money. It was making a reduction in the economic pension of 30 per cent., and also reducing the soldiers' widows’ pensions and those of the soldiers’ widowed mothers. Other pensions were being cut by about 20 per cent, in general. He had hoped that during his term in the House it would never be necessary for him to mention that he had been a soldier overseas. Since the war be had never had to ask for one penny from the Government, as he had given up bis pension, believing that he could do without it. Needs of Dependants. However, he felt he would be tan than

a man if he refrained from saying anything at the present time on behalf of those who were to be affected by the legislation. The man who went overseas and came back whole did not want anything, but he did expect something for bis dependanta if he should prove to be unable to do anything for them himself as a result of hia services. The country would neyer be able to appreciate what the soldiers had done for it. He was not appealing only to the reason of the Government or the House, but also to their moral sense and sense of uprightness. Every returned soldier in the House should recognise that the promises made to the men in 1914 should be redeemed at all CO Mr. Hargest said he wanted to urge the Government to redeem the promises wade. The number of ex-soldiers was diminishing every day. “I urge the Government at this time to rescind its decision and remove these clauses in the Bill, and for a while at any rate do something for the returned soldier and his dependants,” be added. _ As a result of the sacrifices of the returned soldiers, there had been 14 years of peace, and they hoped there would L« 40 more years of peace. But, as sure al night followed day, there would be a time when this country would have to call upon its men to bear arms in defence of their land. If this happened, were they going to point to the promises of yesterday? Were they going to admit to the young men of the future that they had not been able to redeem the promises of the past? SALARIES OF MEMBERS Calls on Politicians INTEREST AND RENTS Reduction iu the salaries of members of Parliament, as proposed by the National Expenditure Adjustment Bill, will naturally bear most hardly on members who reside long distances from Wellington, and especially those who have large electorates. However, an indication was given in the House last evening that even members more conveniently situated are apprehensive at the further inroad of ten per cent, on their salaries. M». C. H. Chapman (Lab., Wellington North), whose electorate actually embraces Parliament Buildings, referred to the question. •Comparing the salary received in 1929 and that now received, members have already suffered a reduction of 27 per cent.,” he said. “They received £550 iu 1929, and they receive £405 at present. The proposed additional cut will make the reduction nearly 40 per cent., and honestlv I do not think that reduction is justified. A member of Parliament has many calls made on his pocket about which the public knows nothing. The salary he is paid is by no means excessive for the duties and calls he has to answer.”

Governed Inflation. Mr.* Chapman said that unemployment, low prices, bankruptcy and poverty were the results of deflation. If these things could be avoided by a policy of governed inflation, surely such a course was justifiable. The taxation proposals of the Government would strike with particular severity the working people, of the Dominion. A reduction in* salaries and wage was a “quack” remedy for the removal of the depression. It could have no other effect than to intensify the depression. Reasonable inflation undertaken for a definite purpose of financing developmental works could not be compared with the inflation indulged in by Continental countrlA Member: What is reasonable inflation? , . Mr. Chapman: Treasury bills could be issued to the extent of £lOO,OOO a week. That would be £5,000.000 a year. The Minister of Public Works, Rt. lion. J. G. Coates: For how many years would you issue bills? . , ~ , Mr. Chapman: For a period that, expediency demanded. The issue of £lOO,OOO for just a few weeks will probably go a long way to solve the problem because more money will be in circulation. That will stimulate trade.

Labour’s Aim. Continuing the debate, Mr. W. E. Parry (Lab., Auckland Central) said the Labour Party refused to agree to _ a wholesale policy of deflation, which would increase the value of bondholders’ interests in war loans at the expense of holders of every other sort of security. The member for Rotorua had stated that the Labour Party wished to place the burden on posterity. That was quite incorrect. The Labour Party wished to protect the present generation as well us posterity. Labour's policy was to use the present financial machinery ns it was used during the war for the purpose of raising money to carry out the activities of the country. Mr. A. Stallworthy (Govt., Eden): You objected to war finance. Mr. Parry said the Labour Party proposed to use the financial machinery of the country for constructive and not for destructive purposes. Labour would ask the people to lend their money to the Government at a reasonable rate of interest instead of taking it from them by means of taxation. Revolutionary Measure.

“The Bill is certainly revolutionary and upsets sonic ot our preconceived notions of taxation,” said Mr. W. P. Enilean (Govt., Parnell). The electors had given the Government a complete power ot attorney to bring down measures for the rehabilitation of the country. The Labour Party should have a better sense of the duty it owed to the country as an Opposition. Ottawa would be the cross-road of Empire, and the New Zealand delegates should go there in a spirit of compromise. Tho best brains should be sent to the conference. He was disappointed that the Government had thought fit to introduce legislation dealing with interest and rents. When the Government passed the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Amendment Act it gave employer and employee freedom of contract. The same freedom of contract should apply to relations between landlord and tenant and mortgagee and mortgagor. It was the duty of the Government to balance the Budget and reasonable measures should be taken to achieve that end. Instead of producing equality of sacrifice in many eases the Government would produce inequality. He had been reliably informed that not five per cent, of morlgagesf bed been obdurate in the present crisis. They had fnce.d up to the situation. The same applied to landlords. In Auckland rents had come down by at least. 35 tier cent. That was a .situation that demanded the earnest, consideration of the Government. There was no earthly reason why the Government should step in anti control the relations between mortgagor and mortgagee and landlord and tenant, and be imped the Government would wipe out or modify that section of the Bill. Mr. A. S. Richards (Lab.. Roskill) said tho public wealth of the Dominion amounted to £315,000J>00. while the private wealth was estimated to total £754,500,000. Mr. Stallworthy: Is it nil negotiable! Mr. Richards said he would not say it was all negotiable, but there was sufFiceut wealth to nut into operation a financial currency scheme that would bring New Zealand buck Io prosperity.

white; butterflies

Introduction of Parasites

Information ns to whether it was the intention of the Department of Agriculture to introduce wasps into New Zealand to destroy the white butterfly was sought bv Mr. It. A. Wright, (Govt.. Wellington Suburbs), in a question he asked I lie Minister of Agriculture. [Jon. C. E. Macmillan, in the House of Representatives yes.terday afternoon. Mr. Wright suggested Hint if wasps were brought into the Dominion they might become as serious a pest, ns the butterfles. “It might be a case of the cure being worse than the disease.” he said. The Minister said that while Hie parasites it was intended to utilise for destroying the white butterfly belonged to the wasp family, they were quite different from the ordinary wasp. These parasites were very minute insects, which laid eggs only on the larvae of the butterfly. They possessed no stings, and consumed no food during the period they were on rhe wing, and during all other stages of their lives fed only ou the larvae of the butter-

SECOND READING Unemployment Bill in Upper House GENERAL APPROVAL General approval of the provisions contained in tho Unemployment Amendment Bill was expressed in the Legislative Council yesterday during the debate on the second reading. An optimistic note was struck bv the Hon. J. B. Gow, who said that, although the country was passing through the darkest hour, he believed the dawn was not far ahead. He urged the people not to lose heart, and to get together to hasten a return to brighter days. The Bill was read a second time, and will be put through its final stages this morning. , The Hon. C. J. Carrington, who resumed the debate, said that the rural population and the unemployed were feeling the depression more than the other classet. The Bill sought to alleviate the position, and was a step in the right direction. Unless the primary industries flourished there could be no improvement in the secondary industries. Too many young people had been employed in clerical and what might be called other light occupations. The blame could be laid at the door of the education system. Many young people did not know the value of money. It had been said that an attempt was being made to convert New Zealand into a land of peasants, but in his opinion it was more desirable to have a country of self-support-ing peasants than ore of dole-receiving paupers. The endeavour to place more people ou the land was a sound and statesmanlike proposal. He stressed the necessity for the co-operation of all the people in supporting Mr. Coates’s effort to deal with unemployment, and at the same time to assist the increase of the country’s income from the export of primary products. As Mr. Forbes had stated, it was necessary to meet decreased prices by production, more production, aud still more production. Honest Attempt. The Hon. G. Witty said the Bill was an honest attempt to solve the drift to the town. Care would have to be taken to acquire the best land, and to place the most suitable men on it. The Hon. Sir James Allen said he was hopeful the Bill would be followed by some success. It was a measure to help the farmer as well as the unemployed. As the problem of unemployment was world-wide, it behoved New Zealand to watch closely the remedial measures adopted by other countries. Sir James quoted figures showing the falling-off in the shipping trade, and said that as a result of Union Company vessels having to be laid up in recent years 1018 men had been added to the ranks of the unemployed. He contended that a stop should be put to unfair competition. The Hon. G. J. Garland said that the success ot the scheme would depend on the selection of the best type of land and men. He would like to see some kind of tenure given the successful applicants for farms. The Government was building on right lines, and he thought the people would respond in the manner expected. The Hon. J. B. Gow said the Bill was an attempt to get away from an idea fostered in some quarters that the State had a duty to provide work for everybody at. high wages. Every inducement should be given to men to seek work other than on relief schemes. In the case of married men work should be found as near their homes as possible. Ho. hoped that in selecting men to place on the land the Government would choose applicants with some previous experience of farming. He considered that the levy on wages was excessive. It would have been wiser to have asked for a lcsse.r sum. If the contributions hud proved inadequate temporary provisions could have been made until Parliament met again. Note of Hope. “I believe that we are in the darkest hour, but the dawn may be approaching," Mr. Gow said. “We must not lose heart. We must not consider that this state is one of permanency. I believe that the time will soon come when brighter days will dawn upon us, and that those who are bearing the burden to-day and seeking to combat our difficulties will be cheered by the return of prosperity, and able to feel that they have at auy rate assisted iu bringing it about.”

The Hou. J. Trevithick said he supported the Bill in its entirety, because be believed it was based on sound economic principles. It was, in his opinion, one of the bright gleams of hope to thousands of men. It ’would enable citizens of independent spirit to become independent in every respect. The Hon. Sir William Hall-Jones said the Bill was a constructive attempt to deal with an urgent problem. He was afraid the rural settlement scheme would be a costly affair. The expense would run into millions. He thought it was most unfair that something more had not been done to assist unemployed women. The Hon. M. Fagan said the day of generalities had passed. One had to get down to facts. Someone had said that tho country was sitting on top of a volcano. There wits no doubt the situation was most serious. He intended to vote for the Bill, but he had some doubt whether a shilling in the pound tax would be sufficient. He was sorry provision had been made for the withdrawal of the support of the Consolidated Fund. The Hon. J. A. Ilauan said that if the Bill ensured a profitable and useful expenditure of money, if it meant that those io receive benefits uuder the scheme would earn what was given to them, and if it ensured that the country would obtain, as a result of the heavy expenditure, enduring and tangible assets, then it had been well founded. He hoped the measure presented a progressive stop. Leader's Reply. In replying to the debate, the Hon. Sir James Parr. Leader of the Council, said be admitted that the Bill was only a part treatment of the problem. With the principle that the best men should be chosen for the land he entirely agreed. The Bill helped to check the‘rapid drift to the cities of the rural population, and if it did nothing else, it had justified itself. The intention was that those to be placed on farms would be licensed for ten years, and nt the expiration of that period they would have the right of purchase. A suggestion had been made that the proposed wage levy wns excessive, but. he was afraid that when the winter descended every penny of the money would be required. The Council adjourned until 10.30 this morning.