THE FINANCIAL POSITION.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1587, 2 November 1912, Page 6

THE FINANCIAL POSITION.

LOAN BILL DISCUSSED.

r VcAUTION VERY

OPPOSITION CRITICISM & MINISTERIAL REPLIES.

iv'. / ' ;J The-House inet'at2.3o p.m.. ' '...,'..' !.V•• A ;■. WM'.- (Si;;^V7ILFOKD i ;;(Hutt)' '.'■•■ asked, '•:■ y] the '£r'iirie Minister-whether'; he;v would; !- : --' ■'■-.■ .jthis. session .move in the House a resoln-, ': ■~'■.'tion conveying ".'to his ..'Excellency, the tV-v 'Governor congratulations' on "' his having Z Z been'appointed : to;a.;high::and responsible i -■::*: .'office,'' arid- expressing regret; that it was '■ : ~':- irieoessary Governor to : ]eaye.New V : '■'.' (Zealand. ...'He-VfMr/'Wilford) thought: a s-;;-;;'!resolution;'of tins nature sliquldbe put on i'-\' : r record;by'ihe/Honse. ; v ''" : '-', - i''"■•■- W. F.. -MASSEI (Prune :■',' Minister);.:in-reply,:said'that.'.he would; '.. -convey; the: honourable members repre- ;■;■■■'■■'■ 'sentations- to Cabinet,;■ but;whatever .the ("-':' : result of ahis,'-'th'e ; House:,-could.'■ rest j- -assured that the Government-would do y V^' the matter.;- ■■■:. :v.,. I ; ; ; BJLL.'''-A !' The Hon. A? L."HEEDMAN. (Attornejt :>i "Cteneral) gave notice of his-'intention to i .:. introduce.the:;New/Zealand Institute of i :;;A,Architects;Bi}l,;;'.;:;:!;;.';'; ./ '. '■ : ,-,; ii.-C^': ;^;rA'RAltWAy^ATAtlTY>\; -'.V:.. I''■'■■ -' TheHon.,W. H.-HEEEIES (Ministei '="■ '•'' for-Eailways) said : thatsometime ago the : : member'for-Hutt'had asked for.a publft [•••'. ' inquiry'to'be": held, concerning ,the. death [V- of:a ■■,man.iiijthe Petone workshops^:A '• - : ''.'coroner's'."inquest-: had ■■; been -held, and \- ','■•;■ .--'laftefwards a' }' Departmental' ■.■inquiry, '•'.'.' : ; and:'...-he;,, .understood;,; that, ... the ; ,; - :'"Becreta'ry of:. the ./Amalgamated, : Society ,T '•"of" :; ■Eailway •.Servants:■'.;". arid■■■•> the 1 I ■"-■■■"'-'.leiatives- of .the-'deceascd ■ were quite eativ l'- : ':'" ;: 'fied''with'the'Departmental inquiry;.!; The '■•'. •'.'". holding of •■'. another .'.'inquiry, would' only :-'-■, delayUhe payment'of"compensation. He, '-:■'- :as%d" the'member for Hutt 'whether he Vwa'uld - still ;h'old,the; Prime Minister to,' f. . his .'promise'-'that 'an 'inquiry, should be. ; -'/'''; Mr. M'.' WDLFOED' (Hutt) said tliat i' : V , : the: publiciinquiry no; '.:'"'. 'Departmental inquiry ;had.been held, and was not satisfied that all the available f,v':> evidence"had been', adduced "at .the ,' in-, ■ ! 'v \.quest. ''--At the Departmental /inquiry, i'- i; however,"Mr; M. : J. Mack, secretary' of the, '':. - iAiS.E.S'.ivhod .been present, ;ancl- he had: :■■':;■ • [brought, out.all 1 the points to'be made. '■ ■ !lri;view? of :this- he: would withdraw^ his j '■•; 1 : '. ireqiiest for a public inquiry, and, be- hbp- '.'::;. 'ed'.the'Ministor'-'wouldat'on'ce'hand.over L' ; , : to the'widow', the. compensation payable. . *•' i','■'; Mr. Herries'-said-he'.would have- plea-.; ;"'.. . siiie irii'/givingj.instr.uctions.,;, /that'. this r : v:-;',£hould:'be done.',-, } . : lr'^l:,'/':../' '".'] ■■■- ■(- ■■. -'v :i. ; f: : ' A:W ITH D BAWAL.! : \:.:'; '' '.'.' ... .: ,- lie wliiiiwtiiti ■■■■■ • ,''■(•/,,, ... - : : Mri'B. SCOTT .(Otago' Central) saidhe "wished to make a,statement to. the Reuse. : On August 20 last,' when 6pe'akihg in the f :',' : ,Firiancial Debate, he had -madeastateL'', ''meht-to'the effect .that'throughout' the F'' length" and -breadth 'of his-electorate,'a f-'i- fairly extensive one,- candidates- support-; i-..-' : ' Sng;the Government'fit;last'electibn.were V;'.'.*: being shown round the electorate, and W' ; :' t'rodu'eed -to pebplev'by'.-Catholic vpnests. '•''■■■ 'JHe had since-.dis'ebvered:.that;he;was,mis- !'.;'' .informed;'and he now'desifed-to.withdraw. i> ... the- statement .unreservedly, "arid "afthe- ? •'• • -Bame time to express, bis .sincere Tegret I ; * ; - - that':•' he -made. :.tho;'incorrect, statement about his'late.opponents and the;reverend ; [■ ,;::';, gentlemeno;,;' ;;':';

IIPORTANT STATEMENT BY THE ■-; • HOPS. J. ALLEN. ■

: tHE; : LOAN:; : :Bl!.L v ;V'V; : '::.

|> Speech by the FiiJAiicE ministeh^ ■v^ ; ;,' ..: ; ta : ~ ;'; iThe"Hon; JA^'AILEN.-(Minister for :-. .-Finance) moved the seconds-reading;to the 1 . to Public Works' and land Settle- !•'■" .•"'irieiit-Bill. fHe said that .thei Bill .proi' < i '.wised' a loan of .£1,750,000 which could. • ■'; : not beobtairied in'this .country or mAtis- ,'-.' .vtralia, but-would have to be-raised in '•'''■•'. London. He had never contended that ' : : this country"could'do without borrowing, hut; he was of opinion that it .was neces- ,' isary' to. proceed ..with' very great carom ': view of "the'present, state .of the London . money market.. The Minister went on to I ' • describe-tho .state of the Public Works ' ■;.' ■'Piind t at' - Oct'ober;'3l,last.' A .balance was; ■ i brought: forward on' April ■1, .1912, or ■■ : ': •''.' <EB2;SBCp" The imoiint' received oil account !■: :i af.the million and;a hidf loan' authorised i..-■■■ ■■■in 1911', wa5W.272,513. .'Advances amount- --'■■ Ing to .£34,500 .'were/obtained for the re>s deinption- .of debenture's:> The sum 'of 1 ' ,£75,0d0'-Tfas : "trahsferred 'from the Coiisoli- ,':■'■ dated Fund to the Public Works Fund. •■• Other receipts brought the total up to • '.■■■ .£1,803,202. Expenditure totalled .£1,413,081 leaving'a balance on October. 31, 1912, of 1 . : ■'•■'■-::J5390,121.'■.: Hon.■ members must' realise i' that the balance of the, Consolidated Fund i"'.-' iat the end of the first half of- the year '>'■■■■'':■'■ was'hot available' for the"Public. Worljs '■: ■'■■ '■ jFund. Keeping a strong"- consolidated. !fund it was not possible to make transfers I-"'- to the Public Works Fund until conii ). ■'•, jaratively late in;tho-year,when the land : J !and'income taxes'came in..' The balance; ■'■ [at the end .of .the first half-year,' or. a' ;-."■'-'-'■ ivcry.large l portion of it,-was really re- ;;'..-. quired for Imprest payments. Until the i fund had been'strengthened f*S ly revenues'coming in it was not in a i-.'. .position to 'allow of-very, much being ' .'. -transferred to the Pnblic : Works Fund. ;,''•'■; The first half of-.the'.year was not a:good i '■■' .-■ one for-revenue purposes.. In October and • ;':..' -November it was necessary to anticipate :',-.., ,-revenue by issuing a certain- amount .of, ; ':'.'.■. Treasury-Bills! . It-.. had . been done' this ■'■■' j'year. An amount of i! 500,000 had been. .issued in: Treasury Bills to aid the Coni.'.Eolidated Fund.. Everything being well ■ .'■■-. some of .these Bills -would be paid' off in i : . December and some in January and Feb- ' .... Mary following. He. had .no reason to ' .■-.■ doubt'that when March-31! next came the [ ,-. "Treasury' Bills would be paid off-and that- !. . /the anticipated revenue would be avail- !;.■•'.' »ble;< Fossibly something more than had :._ ..fbeen.anticipated would be available for -''■ fthe Consolidated Fund and it might be C ' ippssibleito' transfer to. the Public Works ;Fund;the difference between .£75,000 and :..-.' '-ithe quarter of a million which,had been '■■■''■■■ (issued to strengthen.the Public Works '•I'nnd.- '/";' ; . ';.' \ ■■ ,VThe Four and a Half Million Loan. [ .'."'■.- Of the last Joan of four and a half j ; ' jmilliohs raised in April, .£750,000 had al- '.■.. . -.•.(ready., been ■ spent. ~'■ .Moneys .had: [. . .[been-.:,raised in, anticipation .of ...'the'. J -.':.■-.' wan, and these had been paid .off. :.The i■.,-. : -amount of.money available from the.loan ,i ■','■"' tod just about sufficed: to the .-present •■'... .time; 'Already it ■ had- : .been necessary .to ;■'"•'■■■ transfer ,£75,000 from the Consolidated '.'' ' ..': Fund to the Public Works Fund. .The ;■■'■■' policy : so far had'been ■to raise a loan! ' '■.-available up to ;October, or November; in | :' ..the succeeding year. , To create, a really {■■'.' strong position'the loans, raised ought; to ' '■'-■' be available not'to Octpter, or .November,; I"'.'-''- but until the New Year.or..'Up\td March 1 !. - 1 ' 31 thereafter, without,aid'from:the Con-: \ ■':..; solidated. Fund. At. present, ; the.policy. !'•'•:' was to rely on transfers .from, the Con-! f' solidated Fund. The,estimates;. of. .the! ;: , Consolidated not show,''on paper.' j--" '■■'•■ that thero would :,be- any:-' large. ;'amount j J >' : to transfer, ,but he -;h'nd:every, reason ■fb' ! ; ••'•."'. believe thof revehubrwo'-uld--'exceed,the j" ,'.-' estimate. He hopeU/.»,that. ;tho' : money !•';• from the new loanr'wduld'.last.until De-' \- '.'j.; eemberor Jaiiuarr,; or 'even.to'.'March'; 31,v. .••'-, i9W. It might be-necessary. to' rely on I'--' - - - 'the Consolidated Fund-fronv.-B-ecember: nr: I'':"■■■ ' ,J{inuarv;'uiitilvilarch-31,.19H.; He hoped. • "'..'. it would notV:be:;neceSsary,;..The policy-.of ''■''■ this G^vernmcnV-ghoiUd-be to make.loans I/■'. • hadMndii" "•'." oated, 'It fas;. trneJhat;hj.th.ertQ it bad ;' ':"'- ....'.'; :'V '■ ■".'...'

been possible: to transfer large sums from the Consolidated, to the Public .Works Fund,' but the possibility was ;not- universal. .■• Three or ..foiir years, previously it b'ad been found impossible to make this transfer. It was imjiossible to say for-a certainty that the transfer could be made without an increase o;f taxation. He hoped to make loans extend: over a longer period i than the loan raised during the last year,, I Burdens at. Starting. .-■■ ■■■'. ■ ■ At March 31. last and 'when the,present Government came into power,, responsibilities and commitments were very, heavy indeed. ' ThesoUiabilitieshad-to De met, Their amounts had been set forth in the ■Vinanoiar Statement. They had. to .be. met either out. of loan, money or else out. of which: might be transferred to the PubKc Fund. Under the circumstances.' rt was. necessary, .that- .the. Government should raise this comparative-; ly large 'loan—in ■ his opinion, rather; larger than-it should be necessary to: rai c e. He thought thatithe country would be "wise to adopt; a policy of gradually reducing tho ampant that rowed lor the-PuMic Works : Fund until they got the amouiit.to what used .'to bo.| called a sum within, the imeans of > this:i country and its .people. The amount oV borrowing had gradually been drifting and, drifting'; larger amounts had been ■' raised every.year. . He thought, that now ..they: ought to take a firm v grip, and'bring thel amount of borrowing • withm; reasonable bounds' again.- • '. ; ' •, ..• ■• >' ' ■ The Borrowing Policy. r '. '. He did not suggest for; a moment that they should stop borrowing, so,long as.the. money' was spent {on reproductive works,. but hohi' members' ought'not to clamour, and' their districts ought' not to clamour, fbr.more than-was needed. For instance, there were-yery: large, deniandsfor public buildings. The'.country young, and he ■ did' not" think it ■ could' afford extrava-, : gant public .buildings.when so, development work had to be done.,, Eoads 'and bridges,'and even.railways-were more important' than public buildings. Eoads,; bridges, and railways would .open up the country, and increase its. products and its revenue. The 'country, by pushing•' on these works would get - into ; a- strong enough position at' some.later. stage, to make a larger expenditure on public-build-; ings and other things which ,might be, looked upon !as; • comparatively speaking, ; luxuries,- rather' than;, necessities: He hoped the: clamour for t public • buildings, would not increase. Some demands for buildings were very necessary, and very, urgent. In his own Department the de-mand-for school buildings could- not T'be,, ignored. -', '■■'.' Generous Provision; "" In his opinion the Minister, for Public Works ■■ 'had - been very generous in'; his; provision for the coming year, consider--in" the conditions of' the-money market. •Last year the expenditure on, public; works was ' Je2,188,f1f10,. and now n-Parlia-ment was'being askedto vote £2,748,000,: an increase of nearly .; Surely,, that was a generous provision. -.•-' ' ■■ , The' Hon. E. M'Kenzie: You are knocking all the men off. .:■ -; Mr. Allen denied this. '"The hon. gentleman put a great many of. them on," he 1 said, "at a time, when it was interesting i to seß them put .on/and at a time when it was not absolutely necessary. Even for political purposes, we cannot afford to indulge in wild expenditure of public money." :■. ™, Mr. M'Kenzie: What fame are you referring -top . ■ _~,, ~ „ Mr. Laurenson (Lyttelton); Now, now, be quiet. • ■,''■ Tho Four Million Loan. y Resuming hie speech, the Minister of Finance gave an .account of tho, .£4,500,000 raised T>y the 'Mackenzie Government, so, far as it could be ascertained' from the cabled information. There has been credited to the naval defence account .£414,588. On account of the aid to public works and lands settlement, 1911, ,£1,172,513 had been Taised, and in addition tho Government had raised. .£1,018,200 to pay .off advances and for redemption of debentures, a total for public works of '£2,185,713. For State 1 guaranteed 1 advances there ■was a total of £1,635,399.' Those sums'to-' tailed £4,235,700, and there still remained £264,300 of the loan to come, to hand: In the allocation of the loan more had been provided for the payment-of tho Dreadnought 1 cruiser than was' required; .and the Government had been able to transfer ,£176,000 to tho Publio '■ Works Fund. On, October 11 there remained £74,000 of the loan still to be raised, and a portion of that amount had probably •been raised since. ■ Mr. Myers: What is. the total amount of unexhausted authorities?• '.- •''■■ ' Mr.:Allen: That is all the unexhaustedloan authorities tbert are.' A Word Regarding the Future. \ ' "I'have issued a word-of caution, and I think cautiou very, very necessary," Mr. Allen continued. "Every member should take it to his, heart and. try his •_ best to bring pur expenditure within' out means. He should also keep seme contfol.over his ' constituents,, and "not allow them to make demands upon the Treasury or the Public Works Fund that are not-necessary. We must limit our. expenditure, and more decidedly so if the market- i 9 to continue as it is at the present time." Revenue Exceeding ; Estimates. , Mr. Allen said .that, fortunately, the productivity lof'.the country: had, sustained the extravagance of ,past years. He believed its productivity this year would be greater ;than. ever.';, He' could: not' have]said' so a ■month' ago,' he:-could-'announce that;the reveiiuefo'r the ■year;' would exceed ; the estimate in:the Financial, Statement., The.Oustoms;revenue for, the first six- months '.did !&bt -realise. the, estimate, but October had' been' a good 'month,! and' theactual'Custo'ms revenue for the seven •months ; -had : exceeded - the •'estimate'- for about,;£so,ooo., ;,(Hon.: members:,.: Hear, hear!) .'to the increases made in. the graduated land' tax, Mr. Allen said that so far ..as. the .cutting i.tip> of' estates was concerned, the effect of the tax would not be apparent for twelve months. But already the taxation was ;having an effect. The Commissioner of Taxes informed Mm that estates were being cut np very rapidly, and more rapidly during the last month or two than pre'vibusly.■ Mr. Brown (Napier): Where P. Mr. Allen i I am not able to give. details. Mr.'Laurenson: Tho tax does not apply yet.'. .•'■••■ j • ' Mr. Allen: It is in anticipation of the increased tax being applied. That is the : report made to me by the head of the •Department. . . . ■New; Zealand's Credit. f "New Zealand onght'to bo in a position," .said Mr. Allen, "in which we can go .to-the London money market or any; other'market and put the facts so ■clearly'before those who invest in our .'securities that they will lend their money ■ to us 'lit. cheaper rates than to'any other ;colony." '.•/.- .•.Mr,'.-Laurenson: Why should they? ■Mr. 'Allen::Because I believe we can show that-we have a better investment •to"offer..than,the,others. We have no droughts; we have a more productive . jjQunfcu we. hfltfl. aims issma j» hsUejs,

that we can 6how that our. securities are tetter than those of neighbouring colonies. In conclusion, tho Minister said he hoped the loan would be obtained on very reasonable terms, and that- it would be spent on works of such value to tho country that there would be a- return of the full amount of interest and something more. SOME CRITICISM. ME.' G. W. ETJSSELL ON PESSIMISM. Mr. G. W. ETJSSELL (Avon) said the House had just listened to ,« recital of the "extravagance of' tho lato' Government in borrowing, how badly, the loans had been raised, and now the new Minister- for Finance was to have a trip to London to put things right.; Honourable members would look with interest to see how much better his name was known, on the London money- market than that of his predecessor, and how much more -successful terms he'would make for;this country.' He (Mr. Eussell) had been interested to hear the optimistic references of the Minister to Now Zealand—a marked contrast to his gloomy utterances when he was on the other side of tho'House. Tho Minister fq/ Public Works had also been gloomy in his forecast' of the Government's railway construction policy, as he had announced it.a few .days ago. No doubt this meant that some of the rail-' ways would bo cut down, but a railway would be authorised up Opunake way soiriewhere. ■'( Doubtless that 'railway would be.in the Bill. . ••••' . Mr. Massey: I hope the Waiuku line will, be there."" '. Mr. Eussell: I hope so for the honourable gentleman's sake. Aftor'his constituents and the people have' had an experience of him as Prime.Minister, ho will need one or two railways to carry him over the next election. Ho.went.on to say that what was' needed behind' our financial policy was optimism rather than pessimism—a cheery, belief, in. the productivity of thecountiy.ahdin'.the virility of the/people. He noticed from the schedule of the Bill .that;.a.very, large sum of money was' being appropriated for'expenditure on roads, and hot onemember of the' House would grudge.any of that expenditure. . Iti.wasall. very well to talk of reducing , expenditure . on railways, but if the Government were given' twenty millions sterling-to expend--'' : on feeder ■lives, every copper of it would be spent. And all this expenditure would.give its return to the country in increased production, and increased land tax. ; Enthusiast for Settlement. ': He knew the Prime - Minister was an enthusiast in his desire to.settle the land, aid ho admired' Mr. Massey: for-.it.' He hoped the Prime Minister during his term in, office would make a record- in land settlement—(hear,-.; hear)-b.ut' „he would never do it unless he gave' the "settlers a chance to get their stuff -out'to';'the' sea coast. ; It was remarkable-to '-note the. change'in'.the. Government', party since they ,had taken office.' In, Opposition they had- complained "time and;again' about millions of pounds'"worth of .-votes being rushed through .with.out-ahyb.ne but tho Minister knowing anything i about them. Yet'exactly the same thing was to'bo. done that night. . : ; Mr. Massey: It won't 'happen-again.' Mr. Eussell.declared,that.it-was a just retribution of Fate. '...:'-.' ':Mr.'Bhodes: Hear, heart ' Mr. Allen: No retribution hert. ■ Mr. Enssoll went on to ■ quote, figures showing that New Zealand', stocks, had fallen'in price on the London .market, and alleged that it showed.what, London financiers thought; of the'Massey MinisMr. Fisher: They must think the Mackenzie Government is still' in. office.■ 'Mr. Russell said, tho people had shown their' feeling- of, anxioty an'd 1 ' uncertainty under'the Massey Government' by increasing their.withdrawals irom the Post Office Savings Bank. ..■;'„„,; Mr. Ehodes: Where isnt going? Where is it going? He repeated the question without drawing an ansiver,,,until he was silenced by the Speaker calling l Ofderl-'. Mr. Enssell declared again proved that' the people had no confidence; in the Massey. Government, so' that, they would not leave their money in the Post Office. • ' . , ~ ■;•... . Mr. Fisher: They can invest it /with safetynow.' •■ ..■'■'■"■' '"'■'■ .V" it Mr.-Eussell, having, as lished the fact that neither m London nor in New Zealand was there confidence: in the Government, wenf'on'to discuss co-operative works. ■ Were the 'partly skilled men usually absorbed to be thrown on to:the market?- Were tho men to be sent adrift into the towns there would be distress. , . ' ', .". . ■ . . . Mr.:Massey: Ton'are the most pessimistic man I ever heard. ■■ - , ; Mr. Eussell' finally declared that the. Minister had taken too pessimistic a view; of the country's prospects; , No Government could reduce expenditure on necos : sary works without meeting at the hands of the people with their punishment , of being relegated once more to the obscurity of Opposition. OTHER .SPEECHES. , ; .', ' A DOOMED SYSTEM. Mr, A. S. MALCOLM (Clutha) 'said ho had been interested to hear the comical speech of the member lor, Avon, Mr. Eussell had complained that the Government which had been in power for a few months bad not introduced rad'eal changes. He had complained that the iniquitous system of appropriating, public works expenditure was to be. perpetuated —for he had practically admitted that it was a vicious system in that members knew nothing about the votes—when he ought to have thought that the system was the system of his own party. Of course the system was bad, so bad that it ought not to be t tolerated by. Parliament, but the Government had not yet' had. time to put it right. Why Stocks have Dropped. Mr. W. NOSWOETHY (Ashburton) said that half the drop in the. price. :of New Zealand stocks was due, in his opinion, to the war in. the Balkans,,and the other half of the drop to the fact that, a loan of'four andahalf millions had been.raised in London-on short-dated debentures by the Mackenzie Government, of which the member for Avon was; a member. It ill became that hon. member to.criticise the efforts of the Government, iu view of the facts he had mentioned, and also in new of the fact that we were'possibly on the brink of n. great European war, which would reduoe the money market to a state comparable to that into which'it fell in the days of Napoleon. • An Opposition member: Cheer up! . Mr. W..D. S. MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty) contended that the Government had come into office in times of.prosperity, and had no difficulties to. face compar-able-with those faced by the Ward Administration in 1909. They had .heard a loud wail from the Opposition side of the House—(loud laughter)—from tho Govern- | ment side of the House. He. stressed the necessity for maintaining the expenditure on public works,' particularly' in. the backblock districts. After', dealing at 6ome. length with, the co-operatiife system, of which he approves, Mr. Macdonald said that he had no fear, that it would be.abolished. If the Govcrjiinent intended to carry ion small.settloment,- .Mr.' Macdonald stated in concluding, there must bo a, large expenditure 'upon' 'public v'orks. Mr. J. VIGOE BROWN (Napier) condemned the Government i for entertaining thto proposal; to discontinue co-operative wo_rks, and especially, for .stopping wbTk on the railway. . The Midland Line. ' '~'•"."' ' Mr. G. V. PEAECE' (Patea)i said, he rose to ' speak about co-operative works, The member for Avon had said .that the stopping of co-operative works, would cause distress. He ' quoted: speeches of Mr. A. W. Hogg and the Hon. E. M'KenBio to show'that in 1909, the. cooperative workers were treated badly, and thousands of them sent to look for work at a time when work, was hard to find. Tho new Government would not sho# so little consideration for the men. .He deprecated the proposal to spend more money on the Otira Tunnel on the ground that watercarriage of the staple products of the West Coast, timber and coal, was very much cheaper, a little more than halt, what the rail.carrigc would bo between. Westport and Christchurch at ordinary freights. The line could not possibly pay expenses. He added that the total population of Wcstlond was .15,713. • The Hon. ■ E. M'KENZIE -(Motucka) disputed the accuracy of the statements made' by the member for P.itea. roktive to the cost of carriage of coal. The cost of carrying'coal by rail to the ports from the mines on tho West Coast nnd from the ship to Chriatobtirch was mow than Jhe £051 of cuiiisfi bx.tb.« eaa, raaa ins.

total cost was in fact more than it would bo through the tunnol. Added to this, the coal was depreciated in value by extra handling under tho ipresent system. Ho was in cntiro agreement with that' portion of the Statement relating to the importance of reading tho back-blocks. He denied that at any time, and certainly not before last election,,had he ever.put men on 'public works 'that were not really required. He maintained that there wore sufficient funds available to permit of public works being prosecuted.at" a much more vigorous pace. Thero was no need to dismiss men from'some of tho .'works. The only way to provide cheap binnch lines for tho - country districts was to establish hydro-electrical stations in each island and electrify the branch lines. ) THE'HON. W. FRASER. A STATEMENT ABOUT EAILWAYS. •The Hon. W. FEASEE (Minister for Public Works) .said that the depositors in the Savings Bank did not consist only of the poorer classes. Numbers of well-to-do people habitually deposited • the. maximum amount permitted in the Savings Bank. The recent rise in interest had induced such people to withdraw their deposits. In addition, the accession of the present Government had given people confidence to invest. Mr. Isitt: Why has the rate of mterest jumped as soon'ha you took -office.' , : Mr. Fraser said that the rate, of,,interest was- governed by causos operating outside the Dominion.' - Eeferring to what had been said by the member, for Avon, Mr. Fraser said that he.was.not a pessimist. Mr. Eussell had not challenged one of .the statements that\he (the Minister) had made about the cessation bf some railway works. Mr." Fraser contended that ho had put forward a plain stated ment of the facts of t'ne case.Mr. Eussell: You did not seem. sure about the loan being raised- , Mr.' Fraser': Is the hon. gentleman sure of tho loan being raised? Mr.'Eussell said' that he was not. Mr. Fraser, ..after- alluding, to .the troubled state of themohey market, 6aid that he did not intend to embark upon any reckless expenditure without. knowing where the money was coming from. It would be better to.practise.forbearance and self-reliance:. Only half of tile ways and means authorised were available as yet. It was ■ certain. '■ that the . money ■would-I>e. obtained—the credit of New Zealand ensured that—but it was not so easy to say when the mbney would bo. obtained. .The Ward Administration last year had spent only odd of the Publio Works authorisations, and, an unexpended balance of, authorisations totalling, over'.£6oo,ooo had,been carried forward. He'hall based .this year's authori- ■ sations on the expenditure of ■ last year.; lb wag fallacious to say. that there .was not much new money On the Estimates this year. Every vo'tefor this year represented new'money'that would have to be found, out of this gear's, ways and means. He took the position that roads came first and railways second, in this country.; Generally speaking a line' once started 6hould bB carried, sooner or., later, to completion.- The temporary stoppage of a line did not mean that." it' Would be stopped permanently: ,Hb wont •; On to name, lines-which it was proposed, to stop, or to reduce expenditure upon this year. The first .-was the .Waihi-Tauranga line, and the second'the Napier-Gisborno line (south' end).' Next in order came a small deviation on the New •Plymouth line.. As to.the South Island Main Trunk' line (both north :and south ends), if it, would open-up as, much rich' country as was said? be thought the Governinentr should first of all'buy the. land ahead'of,l An Opposition member: Will you buy, the'land?'- ' ' ' " _ . . ■ The.Prime Minister: -Yes, if- it is-.good land. ■' . , ■: -. . ! Mr..Fraser said that.work.would not be .entirely stopped ■ on '. the South Island Main Trunk line, but ■ that ■ oxpenditnro'worijd be considerably reduced for this year.: Eegarding the Midland line the' engineers had instructions to; carry it on; for ,two ifiiles beyond • Glenhope. Eventually the line would,have to.be cbt: ried to .Murchison, but ho would not be honest if he said, that it wbnldbe carried further in that direction at present. At the Eeefton ond the. line would not bo carried meantime beyond Inangaliua. The Eoss-Tokunui line could wait until ho looked at if himself 'arid decided what should be done. . Ample provision had been made for thb Catlins East railway. The Catlins West line was one that could wait and ho wbuld take no appropriation 'for it this year. The reason that he had made the speech to which the member for Avon had taken exception was that the Napier people bad spoken as if they badbeen singled ■ out. • He had shown them that out.of 23 sections of railway under construction, their case was one of ten. Light Railways. He was quite confident that A. great deal could be-done with light' railways in this j country. Hehad'been told that .he must' not go in for light railways, that so soon as they were laid there would be' irresistible pressure brought to bear on the Gov-'i ernment to convert them at great expense into express lines This was all nonsense. Surely there would be men on tho Government benches who Would, not be "swayed by popular clamour. He had seen railways or tramways, privately owned, carrying., large quantities of timber and other, freight certainly at a slow puce, and lie had seen, on the other hand, settlers carrying -their goods through pools of mud on roads that were most difficult and cosily to maintain. He-knew that somo of the tram-lines he had referred to had not cost more than .£2500 a mile. He proposed to make full inquiry into'the subject of light railway construction. CONCLUDING SPEECHES. Mr. T. K/SIDEY (Dunedin-South!) said the Minister had'shown a good deal of courage in the statement he had made. He went on to speak of Otago lines under construction. Mr. J. COLVIN (Buller) replied to the statements made 'by the member for •Patea, saying that'it 'was,never' proposed that coal should be taken from Westport through the tunnel, but it Would take coal from Greyfflouth'.. He w r as. sure, however, that the tunnei Would have to'be constructed, whatever Ministry ivas induce. ■ , . ' ■' . Mr. J. A. HANAN (Invercargill) said the Lawrenoe-Eexburgh railway was on the wrong route,'and should never have been authorised. It could not be defended. He pleaded the rights of Southland to'have more votes for roads and railways. ■ He condemned the system of doles to electorates'which, infected members with'tbe blight of parochialism. (Hear, hear!) The Minister In ReplyThe Hon., JAS. ALLEN rose to reply at 0.62 a.m. fie 6aid that he had been' intensely amused by the member for Avon's speech. Mr. Massey: Be merciful] Mr. Allen said that the member for irresponsibility was patent 'to every man in the House. The hon. gentleman s speech that evening bad not been that of a pessimist,' but the speech of something vrorso than a pessimist, who wanted to decry bis country. The member for Avon had said that the credit of the country had been lowered. Mr. Eussell: So, it has; ... Mr. Allen Said that the New Zealand 3J per cents, when the member for Avon left office were lower than those of any other Australian States. Since then there had been a further fall, but New .Zealand stocks had fallen only £2 10s.. per cent., while .Victorian stocks had fallen £1 10s. per cent.,. and New South Wales stocks had fallen £5 10s. per cent. This Government had saved the_situation, and had restored confidence in the country. The hon. gentleman had said that if he were in control he would borrow and finish the railways. What would he do after the twenty . millions' had been squandered? The Minister concluded with an expression of gratitude that the oountry would not have inflicted" Upon it the policy of the member for Avon. Mr. Eussell stated in personal explanation that the-Minister had misquoted the position in regard to New Zealand and Australiau stocks.. Mr. Allen: You are absolutely wrong, The 13111 was oommitted without a division at 1.10 a.m. ~ , ' Two minutes later the Bill was reported without amendment. 'It was then immediately read a third timo and passed. Public Works Estimates. At 1.13 a.m..the SPEAKEE declared, the House in Coniniittes of Supply. Mr. G. W. KUSSBLL (Avon.) asked what course the Government intended to take. There ;were ■ Estimates atuountiiie to I.k.Sttu».

had sat for fivo nights that Week and (here hod been no obstruction. If it was proposed to force tho Estimates through some protest would havo to bo made. Members owed it to themselves, to their families, and to tho country to protest against anything of tho kitidboini»dono. Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) also protested against any attempt to put tho Estimates through at that hour. Tho Prime Minister, when in Opposition, had frequently protested against largo sums of money being put through without consideration. ... ■ i Tho PEIME MINISTER said that ho was intensely surprised and disappointed at the attitude, taken, up by members on the other side. During tho last few days tremendous pressure had been brought to bear on him to wind up tho session at tho earliest possible date. Members on tho other side had oppealed to him to wind up the session on Saturday (this) evening. He had prepared a beautiful speech in answer to tho member for Avon, and rather than delay business had allowed it to become waste paper. This was tho gratitude he received. '■ Practically a stonewall was threatened. So far as he personally was concerned, ho did not care whether the session lasted for is. week, or fortnight, or thrco weeks more. Ho was practically living in Wellington, arid was anxious to help other members to get out of Wellington. Ho had done his level beat to help members, and thoy would not help themselves. ■ This, ho took it, was their way of telling him that they wore no longer, anxious to wind up tho session. He asked members to go on with the Estimates—he made no promises—and members could please themselves. Mr. LAUEENSON said that Opposition members were prepared ,to go on, but he asked the Prime Minister not to ask too much. The Hon. E..M'KENZIE also asked tho Prime Minister, to report prbgrcss. The PEIME MINISTER said that rates good progress were made that night | the session could not possibly end before Saturday next. ,' After somo furthor discussion, the Opi position agreed to a suggestion by the Prime Minister that the first item should bo passed, and that the Chairman should !■ then leave the chair, to resume: it at 10.30 This' course was followed, and the Hoilso rose at 1.88 a.m.