THE COUNCIL.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1531, 29 August 1912, Page 6

THE COUNCIL.

COUNCIL REFORM BILL. SPEECH BY THE HON. J. D. ORMOND. IN FAVOUR OF THE SECOND READI.\,Ci. The Legislative Council met at 2.30 s yesterday afternoon. , The debate on the Legislative Council Elections Bill was continued by . The Hon. J. , D. ORMOND, a ' life menibei , ; who said ho viewed the main principle of tho Bill as . only affirming that the Council Rives its voice in favour of the elective principle as opposed to tho nominative. The Government considered tho Bill was founded . on tho mandate of tho people. He believed they, were light. The Council should, he thought, pass the second reading and by. so doing show that they were willing to consider tho desires of the "people. This he was convinced was thobest course. .The people desired a chango and tho Government had interpreted the desire but the people did not know the conditions that would attach to the Bill if it became law. He entered Parliamentary life in 1861. In those days there were no continuous Governments— there .was a constant flow in and flow out of new blood. When-the Liberal Government "camo into office the Council had , about 40 members,'included in these being: Sir F. Whittaker, Fitzgerald, Pollen, Atkinson',"Whitmore, Olliver, Geo. M'Lean, Reeves, Bowen, Stevens. Reynolds. ButhJey, and himself. With such ' , men in (he. ranks he thought they would admit that the Council was a body to command the csiifidenup of everyone. "Mr. ■Ormond proceeded to givo a history of . the happenings to date. Things went on smoothly, he said, until Mr. Seddon's time, when same, friction nrose\ It was not until- about 1095 that any very active crusade" against the Council took place. Mr. f-'edrton was annoyed at some of his measures being blocked. Ho described tho Cminejl as being unfit for tho work of revision nlid said it whs not worth tho money il; cost (he country. He advocated tht> abolition of the Council. Sir JoRonh Word, however, did not agree with this.' v:my and so things wont, on up to the They knew the Council had been nsvfiil, . but its "usefulness would have .been enormously increased if they hiid not. to.ken .members from one class of tho community- only. Mr. Ormond referred K tho" loss tho country had sustained, through, .the. fact that the then leader of the Liberal party had neglected to appoint such men as' Sir F. H. D". Bell Sir John Ha'll, and Mr. -Rolleston to tho Council..:. Such, 'mnn, had they-been appointed, would have assisted to' maintain the .good naino of the Council. Mr. Or- , mond quoted the case of a past member of the Council in the time of the Seddon Government who had'practically, lost his Tcappointment. becauso he hud persisted in opposing the Government of the (lay after being interviewed and begged to withdraw his.opposition. This was one case, but there were others, nnd a Prime Minister should not have this power. The case he had mentioned had done moro to bring about) the change of opinion which had come than anything else. (Hear, hear.) Hedisnsreed with some of the main principles.of. the Bill. The electoral system proposed would not be palatable' to the people of New Zealand. (Hear, hear.) If the country were divided into, say, four districts, they niinrht get som-e community of interests. He would never agree to the clause in its present form. The people should be consulted about the provisions of the Bill. He thought tho Government would be wise if, after the passing of tlw second reading, they agreed that the Bill, should stand over until the people's vojee could be heard. (Heat, Wt.) There -were other matters the Government .should undertake Hand settlement, public- works, and railways, etc. The unrest.in the country should also be dealt with before the Council reform wasi proceeded with. ANOTHER LIFE MEMBER, THE HON. E. C. STEVENS. Tho Hon. E. C. STEVENS, another lifo member, thought the Government should hnve proceeded'by way of resolution and nol. by a. Bill, and added that he saw no zontl- reason why life members should occupy H...S;T>£cia,l position in such a Chamho.r." Continuing, Mr. Stevens referred ot ;/>:ne length to various important measures which, had originated, in tha Coud. : _

csl, or had been made effective there He was satisfied that tho Council was hot now a rea political force, and this was to be regretted. It was a charming place to belong to, but it was not a. political a:;d legislative force; and it had not the sympathy of the. country. One eroat cause was that the attitude of the Government for about twenty years had practically extinguished the inclination of members to introduce measures of real sound importance. He thought the timo was not ripe for dividing the country into two electorates. An election under such conditions would fall as flat as a pancake As far as the election of the Council was concerned, he thought the best, simplest and most economical method would be to establish an electoral college, comprising the members'of the House of R->-presentativos, and those who remained in tho Council after a vacancy or vacancies had been created. It was well enough to talk about the Council being elected by the direct vole of the' people, but how wore they going, to get at tho people. There was nothing more dirsctlv reprowntahve of tho people than the "people's representatives. .Mr. Stevens urged that it was not possible to get miythinfj better than the system he suggested. It would bring the two Chambers into closer sympathy He honed to liyo to see th-s system ho had sketched adopted. .' hon. w. beehan's views. • i .a supporter:' of nomination. .The .'Hon. W. Beeh'an said lip favoured I nomination,.'and, failing.' that, he believed in total/abolition. -He. thought'a measure of. tho kind under ■debate-should' have been' tried .on the Lower House before they tried it oiT.tha Council. If they once eot the elective system in tho Council, they -would not be able to change it even if it was jiot a success. The Bill made, no provision for settling "disputes,and in regard to Maori members, something was Droniisod in tho sweet by and bye. The Maori members should lie put on the same footing as other members, or passed out altogether. ■Do you propose to give 'a , square dsal to.. th/'PatholicsPiasked Mr. Bfehan. addrejsme'.tho Leader.-/of the Council. 1 Mr. Bell was-silent,- but the Hbn. J. T. Paul said'the Bill gave a square deal to everyone. : ■■ • ■ ■ ■ • Continuing, Mr. Beehan said that hitherto Catholics had not had a smiare deal. At the last election for tho House, ten of them Dut up, and only two eot in. According'to their' copulation, they should have at least eleven members "in "another place." He would vote against tho .BUI in every shape and form, as ho did notjbshove.in it. To his mind, the best system w n => Hie system of nomination, and. failing that, the abolition of the Council. . ■ THE. HON. CAPTAIN TUCKER/ r AN OPPONENT OP THE BILL. The Hon. Captain TUCKER said that when he first saw tho Bill he was at a los 3 to find a. reason for its appearance. He. argued that the Council was'really elected by the people—not directly, but indirectly, by appointment by those directly • elected by the people. Ho did not think the new scheme would add in any way to the independence of tho Council, and ho did not like the Bill, because under it the ■farmer would not got fair representation. He would be overborne by those who were represented by unions. Captain Tucker oxpres.-cd his intention of voting ngainst the Bill. ■

THE HON. H. F. WIGRAM SPEAKS.

THE FEELING BETWEEN THE ■ HOUSES.

The Hon. H. F. WIGRAM said a gcod "deal of the present Bill had been borrowed from the Bill ho (Mr. Wigram) had introduced some years ago. In a good many respects, he argued, his Bill had not been improved during the process of alteration. Ho thought the Bill had been very lightly introduced in the Council. It was only right that tho Council should originate any reform for the Chamber. Ho congratulated the Leader of the Council on bringing the Bill down in the Council before tho other House. Tho attitude between the two Chambers, said Mr. Wigram, had changed even sinco lie had been connected with tho Council. When he first entered tho Council, there were constantly conferences between joint committees of the House and the Council, but these had practically fallen into disuetudp. Of late years the "other place" had declined to send'committees to meet tho Council. They had practically ignored tho Council. Tho feeling-between the two Houses was not what it had been in the past. (Hear, hear.) This, ho thought, was due largely to the want of a common lobby. In Bellamy's members of tho Council could be. seen on one side and members of the House on the. other. They did not mix. What was required was a more common meeting place. Members of the House had of late taken greater libeaties in. referring to the Council tlur,inp: debate. Even names had been bandied about the House. " ' A voico: That is the Speaker's fault. Mr. Wigram said he would not say with whom th'o fault lay. but, ho added, there wero strained relations between the two Houses, and this should not be. The Council, ho added, had in the past been inclined to weaken and give way to the other House in regard to Bills. It w.ns often suggested that a Bill could be amended, but that if it was there was a chance of losing it in "another place." The; Council, ho thought, should have moro power than at present. He did not suggest that they should have power over money Bills, but there were Bills which were Parliamentary money Bills,and Parliamentary policy measures, and he thought they should have power to amend these. He was strongly and earnestly in sympathy with- the elective idea, and would support the second reading.. THE HON. A. BALDEY. SUPPORTER OF THE SECOND READING. The Hon. A. BALDEY said that his reason. for voting for tho second leading was that ho did not want to see the Bill thrown out abruptly. He did n'ot agree with the aplitting-up of the Dominion into two electorates. Personally, he thought the Bill'should be held over until after the elections. They would then get the opinion of the people at the poll, and they could aGord to wait for this, as there was no immediate, hurry for the measure. If the Dominion were cut into t>7o electorates, the farmers -would not he properly represented. No mnn could possibly get in under Clause 5 unless he represented a ticket. Hβ would vote for tho second reading. MR. SAMUEL SPEAKS AGAIN, STILL" AGAINST THE MEASURE. The Hon. O. SAMUEL, speaking to the amendment, moved by. Mr. said he had already intimated that he -would vote against (he second reading. To vote for the. amendment' would bo something in the nataro of 3 slap, in th? face for" Government, and he would cot support it.

According to May on Procedure, to carry suchi a motion was to let "the oilier side down lightly. He, however, could not see the matter ii\ this light. Mr. Wainnol urged that the.Hill should not l:o pressed past the second reading, but should be left, to the people's voice, nt the next elections. Ho could not sen any justification, for such a Bill as this. Jt was not sufficient to say that a few years ago certain things happened. Since the Seddon Cioyemincnt went out, lie had no hesitation in saying tlmt no member of the Council had ever been approached in the slightest degree as to how ho should vote. He (Mr. Samuel) could not vote for Mr. HigS's amendment —ho had too much ruspect for the. Leader of the Council, who had m) ably and courteously conducted » ditliciilt unci trying debate. He recognised that the majority of thy. Council were in favour of giving the Bill a second reading;, but he would vote, against the second reading. He hoped the Government would rerognise that they had done their duty in thus submitting the matter tj the Council and obtaining u full debate and discussion. THE HON. T. THOMPSON. NO NEE]) FOR HASTE. The Hon. T. THOMPSON said he was' prepared to admit that there was a general desiro on the part of the public that there should be some alteration of the system of appointing members to the Council. He could not entirely approve tho Bill, but he could not vote for Mr. Rigg's amendment, as doing so would, ho thought, to an act of discourtesy to the Government. He had listened ivit.lv great pleasure'to the able speech of the Hon. Mr. Onnond, and ho agreed with that speaker that the Bill should go to a second reading, but should not be hastily proceeded with after that. He gave his approval to the second reading, but thero lie stopped. Ho would hold himself free to vote against and strenuously oppose the Billif it was proceeded with in its present form. Be thought the Government would ba well advised if they acted on Mr. Orinond's suggestion. ' • ■' • HON. MAJOR HARRIS'S VIEWS. AN INDEPENDENT. VOTE. Tho Hon. Major Harris said he would not vote for Mr. amendment. Personally, he did not care whether he went out or not, and he could vote conscientiously. At the same time, he hoped they would leave tho Bill in a condition that the Government would not know it when it went back to thorn. (Laughter.) Ee intended to vote for the second reading, but would go no further. The adjournment of the debate was moved by the Hon. J. G. Smith, and the Council rose at 0.15 p.m. ■ ■ I ' " LJ 11 ■ ' •'■;