PRIVILEGE!

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1265, 21 October 1911, Page 5

PRIVILEGE!

4 RACING COMAIFSSION'S REPORT COMMENTS RESENTED. > HOT DEBATE IN THE HOUSE. t When tho House of Representatives mot yesterday afternoon tho Prime Minister (Sir Joseph Ward) read a lengthy communication from tho members ot the late Racing Commission upholding their previous report and replying t'o criticisms uttered in the House. Mr. Colvin (Buller) raised a point of , order regarding the fact that tho report embodied comments on speeches made by members in tho House, 110 deliberately ' repeated his statement that when the commission visited tho Westport course, it - required and used motor lamps to see ' the course. I' Tho Speaker said that oven if tho d point had not been raised, ho would have called attention to tlio matter. Tho reI. port contained very many comments by tno commissioners upon spwnes in tiie a House, and in his opinion it was out oi 11 order. It was lor tue House to say wliether an exception stiould bo mado in n tills instance and tlio lepori' accepted, i Ho made ii clear that he did not sanction tho comments or that' the accept- '• ance of the report, if the Houso decided upon that course, would create a :- precedent. Privileges Must- be Maintained. Sir Joseph Ward said ho recognised that tlio privileges ot members of Uie House must bo maintained. Tho position in this case was, However, exceptional. The report was the result ot tho wis'li of members of the Houne in connection with ' tho Bill introduced by tho member for Taumarunui. Members wished for a further leieronco of the matter to tho Coms mission, and thai was given effect to by him tSir Joseph Ward). Unfortunately, h owing to tho illness of a member oi' the Commission, and to his own illness, it was impossible for tho Commission to be h again set up, because he had been unable to sec tho chairman to discuss d<> n tail? with him. It was in reply to the :t request of tho House that this memorandum had bwn obtained from the Commission. Tho House should not bo avers:) 8 to accepting the report that it itself had dasiml. Mr. Fisher: Do von proposo that wo shonltl accept that report as it stands? Sir Joseph Ward: i am proposing nothing. I move that it lio on the table. Mr. Ross (Pallia tua) asked whether this new report was to 1m considered as snpv p'.emontary to the original one. If the first report was conclusive, the Executive had no right to refer tho matter to the Commission apain. The Speaker said that when the Commission had once reported, it was "functus officio," and could not act further. The letter just read by the Premier was a reply to a requf-st made by him. Mr. Ma.'.sey asked whether tile Premier would table the letter he wrote to the Commissioners asting them to act arain. Tho Premier said he did not writ" a letter, but communicated verbally with , tho chairman and gavo him no instructions whatever. Mr. Jennings's Bill. j Mr. Massoy oaid it was evidently irapos- ) siblo now to go on with Mr. Jennings's 1 Bill. The proceedings in connection with * tho second report of the Commissioners f seemed to havo been very irregular. He . ivisluil to raise a point of order as to whether tho report could Ix l accepted by tho House, more particularly that part " oontainiuj comments. It was not wrong i for them to criticise those speeches outs '.ide the Hons;, but it was uut of order ] for such comments to bo received in the Jlous.i, unless they had been invited, and ' he gathered that the Premier had not 1 submitted the speeches of members to the Commissioners. ' The Prime Minister agreed that quotalionr- from or comments upon members' ■ species should uot be made in any document intended for the House. He had brai bound to present the report as he received it. i Cannot be Acjeptcd, Mr, Fisher (Wellington Central) asked whether ho would be in order in moving Hint tho report should l>e referred back "for tho purpose of enabling tho Commission to revise and re-present a report in a respectable form acceptable to ParJianunt ? Ho added that the Primo Minister should hnro refused to take such a disrespectful rejjort. He had never before heard such impudence. A voico: The Commission was dead. Jfr. Fisher: Then, if the report is from private individuals, tho offence is infinitely worse. He was amazed that the Houso should contemplate for a single instant tho acceptance of tho report. A voico: The report is not worth hav- - ing. , Mr. Fisher: It is not worth a 6Bnp of my fingers. If it had come from anyone else it would never havo been received. Mr. Masisey: I want to know_ whether the repwt or tho part dealing with niem- - bers' speeches can be accepted? ) The Speaker: It cannot bo accepted, t Mr. Herries said it appeared from what > the commissioners said at the opening of 1 their letter that their attention was , drawn to the proceedings in tho nouso by the Primo .Minister. The Prime Minister: I havo not referred any speech by any members of tho Houso to any member of the commission. Mr. Massoy insisted that tho signa- ( ' tories of tho letter being no longer , " commissioners, were out of order in com- ' menting on speeches mado in the House. Mr. Isitt said the Houso had shot at • theso men and imputed all sorts of ulterior motives tij them. They woro asked to , report again and were now defending themselves from charges mado against them. Tho House should be noblo enough J and sportsmen enough not to try to ex- • : elude their comments upon a question ; of Parliamentary privilege. If they were , men they would waive their points of j order. j Mr. Hogan strongly supported the dc- i siro to uphold tho privileges of Parlia- j ; ment. Ho believed a breach of privilege , ! had been committed. J , Mr. J. A. Hanan (Invercargill) said j tho dissatisfaction with the report in- , dicatod that there would be dissatisfaction j with the commissioner syslem ill connec- , lion with railways, public works, and (ho 1 Civil Service, ife thought tho comniis- > sioners had dono their work well. Breach of Privilege Moved. J J[r. Colvin then moved that a breach of the privileges of the Houso had l>ecii i committed, on tho ground that he had ] i been misrepresented. The letter said that j ho had wilfully stated to the House what , . ho knew t'o be incorrect. If any gentleman mado a statement like that oulside the Houso ho would know how to deal , with it, and he raxed not how high tho character of the gentleman in question might be. The writer had said that he (Mr. Colvin) knew the Commissioner ' was coming to Wcstport. Tho fact was that ho did not know they were there until he saw their motor-car going along the street, and inquired .whoso Hying machino. it was. Had he known they : were coining, he would have attended 1 to tho business, but. tho only intimation f ho had was a telegram from Nelson, 1 which did not say when tho Commis- t sion would arrive or that it had left < Nelson. They did the journey in 12 ' hours, whereas it . usually took two days, t and lie could not possibly know that £ thev would do it so quickly. Mr. Colvin quoted from the report tho words regarding himself. The statements mado wero untrue, and he would guard his ] personal honour at all hazards. A gen- ] tlcman occupying the high position of s Sir George Clifford should not make such ) statements without first ascertaining that „ thev wero true. t Jfr. Poland: What position does ho oc- P cup.v ? . . li Mr. Colvin: no occupies a high posi- (, tion in this country. - To Rangihiroa: A high and mighty j position. v By the Speaker's direction the C.lerk ], nf the Houso now read the portion of jj tlio report to which J[r. Colvin had taken ij exception. It consisted of comments upon s tho speeches mado by members in Iho House. It wns then formally moved that Sir George Clifford had committed a breach I' of the privileges of the House. _ C Jfr, Field seconded tho motion. _Ho 1 quoted what he termtd several objection- k ablo and wild, statements mado in the t memorandum.

Mr. Luke moved, as an amendment, that llio report Ih> received, subject lo tho deletion of the subject matter complained at. . The Speaker ruled Mr. Luko out ot order. Tlio Order of Reference. Mr. Frnser wanted lo know if it was pos-iblo for Die Commissioners to justify their report alter the criticism of members unless I Key made ref«Tcuco to tho particular speeches. Tlie Commissioners had perhaps not adopted llio wisest coiu'so lit making some ot the rcfcieiices they did. , , Mr. l'islier said the speeches were not referred to tlio Commission, it was tlie Gaming Bill that had lwen referred to them. Mr. Frascr: How do you know? Mr. Fisher: How do you know? Mr. Allen quoted the opening words of the letter where tho Commissioners referred to themselves as having apiwintcd to consider tho arguments in - duced in support of tlio Ginning Amendment Bill, and tlio schedule thereto appended. The 3lou.se ought to know exactly what the Premier .submitted to Hi® Commissioners, but it appeared that there was no written communication. The Premier said there was a written communication, and he had sent for it, but it could not be found at the moment. Ho wished to lay it before the House. 11 o read, however, Sir G. Clifford's reply, which mado 110 mention of any speeches in tlio llouso. It was obviously a natural thing for the Commissioners to look up the speeches in ll.insa.Td, in order to see what had been said in criticism of their report. "According to May." Mr. Massev said that while a technical bieach of privilege liad been committed, it was so slight that it was almost unworthy of the attention of tlio House. According to May, tho highest Parliamentary authority, "the publication of tho debates bv the House had been repealed, jy declared to bo a breach of privilege." He suggested that the motion should bo withdrawn. Mr. Poole (Auckland West) said it seemed likely that there wa« some misunderstanding regarding the visit of the Commissioners to Wcstport. He also urged that th.o motion should bo withdrawn, as he believed Sir George Clifford had not intended lo reflect upon the Hou<o. Hon. R. M'Kanr.ie: I think ho did so deliberately. Tho Prime Minister said: Tho sensible course would be to accept tlio report and delete by resolution the portion to which objection was token by Mr. Colvin. Mr. Hull (Waipawa): It refers lo other members .also. Mr. G. V,'. Russell (Avon) said there could be no deitbt •>. breach of privili go had been committed, and ho would voto for the motion. An Indignant Minister. The Hon. Roderick M'Kenzio said he reoognis«l that there was considerable difficulty ia consequence of (lie Commissioners having burn asked to report a second time, lie, however, had no doubt that Sir George Clifford hail deliberately committed a breach <>f privilege. It had. been done intentionally no doubt, because the Racing Commission were smarting under the comments mado upon their first liming?. Sir ficorgo Clifford dared not say lo his (Mr. 1!. M'Kcm-.ie's) face what ha had «id in that memorandum, hec-niso if he offered such comments to him in tho street lie would have to stand punishment for them, consequently he failed to sac why he should bo allowed to insult members of Parliament deliberately and openly as he had do::o in I hat report. Parliament should not lower its own dignity nor allow lo bn placed oiv llio records of tlio colony such it-marks as he lmd made. Mr. E. Newman (Manawatu) considered tho Coimni.'simiers had mado most offensive remarks - about Iho member for Puller, with whom ho sympathised. Tlie House should mark ils disapproval of such language couccrning any member of the llouso. Mr. A. Myers (Auckland East) concurred. Mr. Colvin's Reply. Mr. Colvin, in reply, declined to withdraw his motion. liad Sir George..Clifford referred to the leader of the.Opposition in tho siri'e terms as ho had rofrrred lo him (Mr. Colvin), Mr. would have lwi vrrv different language. Th« letter w-as signftl on'v by Sir George Clifford, and ho (Mr. Colvin) therefore could not refer to the other members of tho Commission. He would sooner loaro the Houm and, never come back than stay in it with a stain on his character. "I am the keopsr of my own honour," exclaimed the member for Buller. "I ask for no man's vote. I want no sympathy. If any member thinks I hnvo done wrong, let-him brand me as doing so. I.et Sir George Clifford come down to the district where I live, and reflect upon my character, and then he would find out what it is. I bclievo Sir Goorgo Clifford has lived an honourable life; but he must not. put a slain on the character of eno who is now getting an old man. I have never been beaten when I .have stood for any position in my own district. That is not because of ability, but becanso the pcoplo know I am on honest man. I leavo my position in tho hands of the House." Tho motion declaring tho matter to bo a breach of privilege was carried oil the voices. No Further Action. Tho Speaker stated in reply to a question that it was now for the House to decide whether Sir George Clifford should bo called on for an explanation, or fined, or imprisoned, or whether any further action should be taken. Tho Prime Minister moved that no further action bo taken. This was carried on tho voices. Tho Speaker stated, in reply to (he Hon. R. M'lvenzie, that tho only portion of tho letter that would go oil record - would bo tiiat read by the clerk as con- \ stituting tho breach of privilege. Mr. Luko moved that the report should lx) received, subject to tho deletion of the comments on speeches made by members of the House. Mr, Isitt Pleased, Mr. Isitt said that; Sir George Clifford had always been held up lo him by racing men as the soul of honour, and i an oxa'nplo of what a racing man should be. Again and again he had heard (hat in Christehurch. He thought that tho breach of privilege that had been committed was a technical one, and he personally regretted tho references to tho member for Duller. .He was, however, thankful that a gracious Providence had given to tho country this feast of fat things full of marrow. No doubt tho gentlemen connected with the racing fraternity would regret that (heir action had resulted in (his expose, but ho and the members of the Anti-Gambling Association would bo thankful for it for tlio - rest of their lives. On tho suggestion of the Prime Minister, who said that the letter would hardly be intelligible without the comments 1 in question, Mr. Luke withdrew his motion. This closed the incident. Tlio report of the Commission will bo J found on pago 3.