PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1252, 7 October 1911, Page 6

PARLIAMENT

THE HOUSE. HISTORICAL RECORDS, ' PROPOSED NATIONAL COLLECTION. MILITARY TRAINING. IMPORTANT MINISTERIAL --.■- STATEMENT. Tho House-met-at 2.30 p.m. Mr. CRAIGIE,. for the Public Petitions Committee, .'reported upon the petition'of tho Wellington .City Council, asking that the passing-of the numbers' Registration Bill should' be stayed .pending- inquiry. Tho Committee recommended that tho petition be referred .to tho Government for consideration. Mr. W. FBASER reported that, at a meeting of the Joint Library Committee held ou September 29, tho following, resolution was carried :-"(l) That there bo established in connection with the nbraiy. a manuscript and historical section, witli the view of obtaining all possible origin"! documents (or copies) dealing with tic early history of tUo colony,.and that tno Government bo requosted to place a sum on tho Estimates for this purpose. (2) That a special strong-room be proviueu for the storage of such documents. (3) That tho Home Government and tho sur- ' -riving relatives, of all. who took part in tho formation of tho colony, or who have acted: as 'Premier .or Minister, toinnted. to contribute documents. (4) ihat; the publio bo invited to contribute paintings, photographs, documents, etc, for the collection. (5) That this resolution be commM^G'tW/RUSSELL?& urged, that eomcthing might bo done to collect the documents and records to which the umi- • ' joittee had referred. Interesting contributions might bo obtained from tho relatives of thoso who had played a prominent part in the political and ecclesiastical history of New Zealand.-' Jjpcu- • . menta relating to more, recent history might be obtained from Sir Joseph ward. Some very interesting records might bo obtained from the archives of the Old Country. -At tho Horso Guards documents 'would' no doubt be discovered relating to .regiments which had served m New Zealand A still wider field of profitable inquiry would be opened it applications rcere made to toreign bqveruinents for documents relating to visits of' whalers and other ships m the early days. Tho Native tribes should also ,bo invited to contribute any historical documents in their possession to . a national collection, and some private individuals .would be,able to augment 'the store ._.of, official documents. ■ 110, hoped that -the Government would place a, sum on the Estimates to enable a-.. Vigorous start to be made upon tho work of accumulating a national historical;'collection, ~-:■:' Mr. G. M. THOMSON- (Dunedin North) said that the services of an onthusiast were more necessary. in a-task- ,of' this kind than a grant of money or- the appointment of a sub-committee. This would be admitted by anyone familiar - with the labours of- Dr. Hocken, of Dunedin. The effort should be not so much to buy these documents as to inspire ■ their possessors with tho right spirit and induco;thonv to hand Aver historical records to'-tho national col- ' lection. v - ' ' ■ ' ■ _ Mr. F. M. B. FlSHEß'(Wellington Central) urged that greater'-vigour should bo Ediown in , compiling collection of the nature advocated. Some interesting relics had come to lights among them a plan of the town of Alexandra, which was the original city of. Wellington. Mr. Fisher mentioned that on this plan an irea was set apart, as a "site- i for tho Palace of the President.'"- Naturally,' hecontinued, people di(l~iiot. like> to, hand over historical heirlooms to the Government to bo stored in wooden cases in a: wooden building. V, " Tho Hon. D. BUDDO denied that any historical documents'or relics had been eo bestowed. Mr. Fisher continued that the member for Avon had mentioned an old Canterbury family bearing the namo of Rhodes. It-was interesting to know that thoro was edso at that time, in. Canterbury a family named Bridges. "Thero wexe Rhodes and Bridges even in thoso days," said Mr. Fisher, "and they are likely to Temain with us for a long ime." Mr. Jennings: I hopo not! Mr. Fisher said that all sorts of interesting historical evidence was lying about in second-hand book shops and in old houses. Parliament would bo quite justi-iiod-in spending ten or fifteen thousand pounds on an object of this kind. If this were done, the people of New Zealand fifty years hence would look back with gratitude to tho Parliament of 1911 and. commend its foresight. The Hon. D. BUDDO denied that tho Government had been guilty of any carelessness or indifference in dealing with old records. No opportunity was los-t of adding to tho historical collections in the possession of the Skaps, and when tho newbuildings were completed the records would bo stored in fireproof quarters. ■ . Mr. A. S. MALCOLM said'there was a feeling in the minds.of outside collectors ! that interesting historical books and documents would not bo safe in a Parlianien--1 tary library. The impression obtained that members were inclined to abuse their : privileges. It might bo'worth while to ; • consider the establishment' of a national i ■ collection independent of the Parliamentary Library. ; The' report-was adopted. : FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. i An amendment to the Friendly. Socie.. ' ties Amendment Bill,- , '.which had.passed l / through both Houses, was brought down by Governor's. Message. Tho words pro- : Tiding for an actuarial examination of the- contributions to every : friendly, society had been altered by tho Council, and according to Sir James Carroll the Government Actuary had stated that he could not work under the clause as it now- stood, as it required'.him to ' certify whether .tho contributions would lx> '-adequate lor the benefits provided by the rules." The'.new amendment '■• was'to delete'from Clause .2 tho words >-"' v expressing "that:.requirement. ~ It was agreed to. . .

v THE ESTIMATES. ; LAND, FOR SETTLEMENTS. I DEBATES OF KENT. At: i p.m.'the House went.into Committee of.'Supply,: tor; the further consideration of tho Estimates, taking first the Land for Settlements Account, £9UB. The Hon. D. JBuddo 'was in charge. Air. W.'..l''. MASSEY, Leader of the Opposition, complained that the full information concerning estates purchased for closer settlement and the settlement r>n them was no longer given as formerly in the Lands Report. The MINISTER said a single year's report would not enable ono to form a Fai'e opinion on the succoss of a settlement. ..'' ... . :■.'•.■■ • '■ Mr. H. .T. 11. OKEY (Taranaki) also protested against the discontinuance of the practice of furnishing full information in tiiis matter. Mr.' J. P. LUKE (Wellington Suburbs) mentioned that the amount voted last year for Land for Settlements was .E1i.883, but only ,£8239 was spent. Ho expressed dissatisfaction at the "tailing-olf" in this jjfpartment, as shown by the figures. Mr.F. M. B. FISHER (Wellington Central) condemned the practice of giving ten per cent, rebates of rent to settlers. He asked why rpbates shonlil bo allowed to well-to-do farmers and not to workers in the cities living on Crown bind. It was a delielitfnl gift tn hundreds of people who did not reriuiro it. The man who most needed help was tho one who could not paj his rent, but instead of n rebate, he Rot ten per cent, added to n-hnt: he had to pay. Mr. L. M. IPTTT said that this tan nor cent wa3 actually claimed by men w\o hod taken up 999 year leases at a PP M"TV. e OT S sU^=e4 U3 t ! hat the ten per cent was a concession to one man who probably did not need it. and it w«n withheld. from another to whom it, mHit'be of-some value. Mr. Russell ■iaid tho Government was not catering sufficiently for the poor man in its land for settlement, operation. . Mr. F. M. B. FISHER moved the reduction of an item as an indication that tho ten per cent., 'if granted to farmers,

should bq also granted to workers who borrowed under tho workers' homes scheme.

Mr. C. A. C. HARDY supported tho proposal. It was wrong to iiuiko fish ot ono and flesh of another. The Hon. D. ISUDDO contended that tho discussion was irregular, as a question of policy wns being discussed. Tho CHAIRMAN 7 OF COMMITTEES ruled that Mr. Fisher's amendment raised a question of policy, and was out of order. An Act in Abeyance. Mr. E. NEWMAN (Manawatu) said he was sorry that the Land for ..Settlements Act had boon practically in in .the North Island during the past twclvo months. Of seventeen estates purchased, only two were in the North Island. Tho mistake mads by the Government was that it tried to get land too close to the Taitways. There was a great deal ot land in tho North Island, particularly up the Main Trunk line, which was suitable for settleriiout, though not perhaps for agricultural settlement; Tho Government had paid last year.£2s, <E3O, and .£■lß an acre for laud. It t should not .do this while it could get plenty of ls>;id ten or fifteen miles from a railway at about £10 an acre. ' The Hon. D. BUDDO admitted that detail: particulars of the estates purchased were scattered through reports and 'returns.' Ho would undertake to furnish a conciso report presenting these details. As to remissions, tho Government carried out the law. Farms down to ten acres of really first-class land were being provided for poor settlers and the Government was fully alive to the necessity of considering their requirements. Answering Mr. Newman, the Miu- : <-. l r>- pniiiM out tliJit improved Native lands which served tho same purpose as laud for settlement lands had been purchased in the North Island Inst year to the value of about ,£IOO,OOO. Tho amount spent in New Zealand in purchasing.land for settlement made it compare favourably in this respect with other States. Mr. J. B.HINE (Stratford), quoting from Land Settlement Finance Act returns, pointed out that some settlers appeared not to have paid their interest. It eeem-ed to him that this Act was providing a handle for speculation on the part of many people, particularly land agents. He displayed a column advertisement of a subdivision and sale of property under the L:uid Settlement Finance Act The advertisement stated that five of the sections had been sold and that intending purchasers must hurry up or they would not have a chance of obtaining the balance. It eeemedto him-that these people;w«re interfering to an unwarranted extent and that the case called for Government intervention.

The Hon. D. BUDDO stated that the discrepancy in tho returns was due to the fact that some of the settlers had been giveil timo'in which to pay their interest. There was no law preventing such a thing as a land agent acting in these transactions. Whether it was desirablo or otherwise he was not going to say: Some settlers were indebted to people who took up work for them in this way. But nothing more was required than that cue activo settler should go and pick out the land, make proposals in regard to cutting it up, and make application to the Government in terms of „the, Act.: There-was no necessity to-go to anv agent. The settlers, had this matter, in their own hands. Nothing more was required than an ordinary faTmer could do for himself. It was clearly a matter for settlors themselves.

■ Mr. HINE said he quite agreed that there was nothing-in tho Act to prevent tho. intervention of agents, but he questioned whether this was desirable. Probably tho trouble would bo:overcome if the Government vlet it bo known throughout tho country that,they were prepared to accept offers of estates' frbin bona fido owners of land tinder the: Land for Settlements Act and Land Settlement Finance Act. Having, accepted, the areas they could notify through the pressor otherwise that, they, were available. This would do away with intermediaries. The Small Settler.' Mr. H. G. ELL and other members urged the acquisition of land in , villages and other settled areas, to provide- allotments for workers who could not afford to take up largo areas. -Mr. R. 11. RHODES supported the proposal,' but said thai he would go further and.allow.a nian.holding.asection of this kind; to exchange it for a larger section. When a man had obtained'a section which was regarded as of the maximum -permissible area he should bo permitted to acquiro the freehold; Mr. NEWMAN endorsed tho proposal. The Hon. D. BUDDO said the difficulty was only to bo overcome by the purchase, of.estates. Mr. T. M. WILFORD contended that the only remedy was to bo found in taxation. Tho land could bo settled only by altering the incidence of taxation. Until this had been done no solution, of the problem woiild be discovered. Mr. G. ANDERSON (Maraura) remarked that whatever might bo true of the immediate neighbourhood of cities, sections of .less than 50 acres would he useless out in the country. When the House resumed at 7.50 p.m., Mr. MASSEY asked whether the Minister would submit an interim report on tho operations under the Land for Settlements Act and Land Settlement Finance Act up to the end of September. Tho Hon. D. BUDDO said be would do this. . Tho vote was passed unaltered. State Forestry. New Zealand State Forests Account, total vote ,£23,397.

Mr. SCOTT moved a reduction of .£1 on the item of .E2850 for salaries, as an indication that a scientifically-trained export should be placed at the head of the lorestry work. Mr J. DUNCAN seconded this. He referred to the abandonment of a plantation in tho Awatcre after a considerable amount of money had been spent on it. It appeared , that the site had been found unsuitable. There were other sites in Marlborough suitablo for plantations, but not.so employed. His district also suffered an injustice, in that royalties were collected from the State fouests there and spent elsewhere. ■ .' .' . /

Tho Hon. T. Y. DUNCAN said Hie permanent'officers should be men who know ! tho country, as at , present, , and an. expert .might be brought from abroad to. report and advise. More energy should, be put into the work, and the amount of planting done each year should bo doubled. A great many more 'prisoners should be employed in tree-planting. Mr.-MALCOLM suggested thatsoine of the best men in the Department should be sent'abroad to acquire further knowledge.. :•..■•.•. ..',.■ . Mr. HARDY approved of. tlio prisoncamp', system of'tree-planting, and supported the amendment. ■' •

■Mr,FRASER .considered that 'two tilings—forestry and , education—required the ■ whole attention' of.. a Minister for each of them. Tho importance of for-estry'-was not properly appreciated. ' The MINISTER .considered-that .an export from another country was not required'for a permanent position in this country. '■-.. '" ~- ~. . . ..'■.- ■ The-:motioa was ; lost, and the Vote was passed unaltered. ■ . . THE DEFENCE SYSTEM. TRAINING OF OFFICERS. THE TERRITORIALS....'' ■ Class X, Dcfenco Department, total vote JSH&lJi'i, was taken at 8.15 p.m. The Hon. J. A. MILLAR was in charge, iB lh* absence- of Sir Joseph Ward. The MINISTER stated in reply to questions that there were 2.1 Imperial officers at present attached to the forces in New Zealand, nnmcly, fifteen commissioned officers and eight non-commissioned officers. Twenty-three New Zealand officers were absent from the Dominion undergoing training, so. that practically an exchango had taken place. Nr«- Zealand had the. right to send ten eHirers to tho Australian Military College, and ' these would bo selected by competitive examination. Colonel Davies was not one of the exchanged officers. He was now a briga-dier-general in tho Old Country, and the Minister did not know what he might do in tho future. Lyttelton Forls. Mr. LAURENSON asked whether tho Government intended to carry out the recommendation o£ Hie military authorities who oondemned Toil .lervois and recommended another fort. Ho wanted to know if any steps were to bo taken to instnl an.effective system of defence at the port of Lyttelton. Ho also wished to know whv they should continue to instruct No. i Company in garrison work if the fort was indefensible. The MINISTER said Fort Jervois was not condemned at all. The whole matter was under consideration, and there was nt present no intention of dismiuitlice it,

Mr. LAURENSON said he had a distinct recollection of ii report that condemned Fort Jervois in unmeasured term?. It was suid (q be more deadly inside than outside of it in the event of a bombardment. It was supposed to bo ;i veritable death-trap and it had been condemned.

The MINISTER, said he would not deny that fact, because, different officers from tlii! limo of Governor Jervois downwards had condemned every fort in Kew Zealand. He could assure the member for Ly.ttolton that the fort had not been condemned, or in other words that thero was no intention of dismantling the wholo lort. ... Wages of Artificers. Mr. M'LAREN complained that tho wages of artificers in the Artillery, as shown on tho Estimates, weio below the regular wages in similar trades. The MIXISTKtt said this was not so. Counting good conduct money, etc., no man on tho list got less than Bs. a day, and' most'got ss. or more. They got a half-holiday every week. Tho force as a lrholo was the highest paid in tho world, but that was not tho case in Tcgard to tho officers. The Territorial System. Mr. RUSSELL read a memorandum from headquarters, dated April 27, 1911, and stating that tho Act provided for tho (.Taming of every New Zealandcr between tho ages of-12-and 23, after which he would be placed in tho reserve until he was 30 years of age, and that everyone- not physically unfit would have to take his share in tho defenco of the Dominion. Was that statement withdrawn? Were there certain persons who wt-ro allowed to defy the law and others who were.to be imprisoned for doing so? Hβ had opposed the establishment of the compulsory system, but as it was now tho law it should bo carried out in its entirety. Ho also wished to know whether it was true that the Government intended to issue a mandate that the compulsion should stop at 22. He considered that the Government had no power to reduca the afio limit, and if it wished to do so, Parliament should bo consulted. Universal Training Must Wait. Tho MINISTER said the intention was to create a force with a maximum of 30,000 men. At the present time not a single man over 21 was enrolled except some ex-volunteers. It was estimated that 23 per cent, of those liable for training would be medically unfit. They had heard a great deal about the enormous oxpense of tho defenco scheino, -and so long as they could get an effective force of 30,000 the question of universal training could wait. An ample number of men for this, purpose was coming forward at present. From the ago of 12 to IS it was practically only physical training and discipline. After IS the military training would be more acute, and tho process of elimination would take place, on grounds of physical fitness. After they had got the wholo force of 30,000 manned and equipped, tho matter of universal training would bo considered., Tho Government could bring down the age for compulsory training to 21 years if they wished to without altering tho Act, and as the advice of the military authorities was that the men could bo made effective and the force brought up to 30,000, compulsion would stop at that age for the present. ' Thirty thousand was ample for a war footing for New Zealand. Mr. RUSSELL: How are you going to draw the line between the one who is forced to train and the one who is not? Why should one have to go and do his turn and another escape? Should there j not bo equality before tho law? No General Intention to Prosecute. Tho MINISTER: There will bo no distinction between man and man. It is a question of physical fitnessY Mr. Millar, also faid, in reply to Mr. Fisher: "It is not the general intention of the Government to prosecute, except in special cases, where it is deemed to be necessary. Universal training will be a matter of evolution. What would be the vise of training a forco of 100,000 men at presont? Mr. Fisher: Keep your quota by reducing tho age limit. ....... Tho Minister said ho did not think that would work out very well. Mr. FISHER said the statement made by the Minister as to universal training and prosecutions would do the system moro harm thin all tho criticism. Ho also asked if there had been any refusals to register in which nrosecutions had not followed.

Tho MINISTER said he did not know. Thero had been twelve prosecutions and four convictions.

Mr. LAURENSON (Lyttelton) declared that some people in this country wero dying to be made martyrs provided it did not cost them anything. He believed that the time would come when every man and woman would recognise the value of tho training not from the military point of view only, but from the health point of view. He hoped the.Government would persevere with the scheme, and develop it with tact and diplomacy. ,

• Mr. R. A. WRIGHT (Wellington South) drew the Minister's attention to the fact that two lads had been punished in Wellington. It now appeared that other lads wcto to escape the penalty of disobedience. It appeared unfair that some should'have been prosecuted and punished while others were to escape.: The question now arose to to what should bo done in reference to those who had not been' punished. ••' He was not sorry that .they were now going to bo less severe,' but he thought that those who'had been punished' should be requited in some way. Convictions must be Respected. Mr. C. H. POOLE (Auckland West) said he sincerely trusted that tho Minister would seo to it that th:> officers of the Department received every support in their efforts to bo tactful and considerate. Thero wero people who had convictions that must bo respected, and it would be a sad thing if they wore oppressed and persecuted in a small way.

Mr. L. M. ISITT supported the view of tho member for Lyttelton. Ho considered that a great mistake had been made in initiating prosecutions. Unless tho people could be induced to submit to tho det'enco scheme its e.xiste.ice would be endangers 1. It would be a mad thing for tho Government to stick to the letter of the law and risk tho wrecking of tho whole scheme. The institution of compulsory training was an experiment, and tho Government should pursue a tactful course. In England the Quakers had endured every species of persecution that could bo inflicted on men. At length the c:ramon-sens3 of the people, of England awoke, and tho defection of the Quakers was winked at. The true line to pursue in this matter was to avoid conflict, especially as there would be no difficulty in keeping up the complement of £0,000 men. Mr. 1! A. WRIGHT (WollingtonSouth) stated that gravr dissatisfaction existed m Territorial companies in Wellington over tho withdrawal of rifles, which had delayed the opening of the shooting season, and tho withdrawal of railway passes to members of riflo clubs.

The MINISTER ,Tcpli«l that all rifles had necessarily _ been called in for overhaul in connection with the initiation of a new scheme. Any delay thus arising should be tolerated. Free passes were no longer wanted to members of ride clubs. "When the new scheme had been established they would no doubt receive some consideration, but thn Defence. Department could not afford at present to concede, them free nas^cs. The MINISTER stated, in reply to Mr. Jennings, that the idea of establishing a general training camp in each island had been abandoned. District camps would lm employed instead. This applied to both islands. Mr. G. W. RUSSiLL re narked that thousands of young men had registered in the belief that they were compelled to do so. The Minister: So they are. Mr. Russell said that the Government was on tho horns of a dilemma. Were they now going to allow some to defy the law, while others had paid tho penally of (loin? so? The Government had abandoned t;lio idea of prosecuting any more young men for refusing lo register. Tho Minister: N> they linven't. Mr. Rus , -"?!) retorted that tho young man Xu trail, against whom a prosecution had b?f>n instituted ; n Cliristi-huroii, had fcren told by the magistrate-that the case was withdrawn. Free Travelling. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL asked whether youths who resided five or six miles away from tho training depot would be required (o benr tko cost of travelling back and forward?The MTNISTKR stated that, no provision hnd been made on tho Estimates for travelling expenses, but Ilia 1 ." clforls would l>e mad;! to obtain for territorials tho right to travel free on city traimvnys, and tirobably they would be allowed tu travel free on the railways,

Mr. D. M'LAREN urged that a Slate clrjtliiiiK factory should bo established in which uniforms could bo manufactured.

Tho .MINISTER said the Government had decided not to do anything of the sort. There were well-equipped factories in each of the four larse centres, and the tenders had all been called locally, so that tho expenditure was distributed throughout the , I)oniimon.

Mr. FISHER asked what tho Government intended to do in the case of men who registered under this scheme, served ono year, and then dropped out. Also what had tho Government done in the case of its own employees. Tho MINISTER, replied that in the event of a man dropping out, military law would quickly be brought to bear. Tho Railway Department employees and Postal Department employees were being formed into special corps. ' Mr. FISHER said he had heard that a section of Railway Department employees 'had banded themselves under the title of "Wo Won'ts," and had asserted that they would refuse to register. ' The MINISTER promised to make inquiries. To Sir Arthur Guinness the Minister stated that each case of refusal to register would be dealt with as it came along. Ho did not say that the Government would not prosecute in future, but only that its general policy would be not to prosecute. Rifle Clubs. ' Mr. FRASER asked whether any rifles would be issued to rifle clubs? Tho MINISTER stated that the territorial forces would first be armed. This done, tho rifle clubs would be considered. Mr. FKASER said that if only a limited number of rifles were ordered the clubs might Lave to wait indefinitely.' The MINISTER stated that 8000 now rifles were on order. This would more than equip the territorials. Probably some rifles would be issued to clubs early noxt year. Mr. ALLEN asked if the cadets rejected owing to medical unfitness were not to receive any training. Tho MINISTER replied that the Department was done with them when they were rejected. Mr. JENNINGS thought the rejects should havo some drill, even if in a separate class. They would not like to have the stamp of inferiority put upon them. Mr. ISITT eaid every wise man should do his best to secure a fair trial of this system. If there was a barrel of powder about you would always find some men who were ready to put a torch into it. A voice: You're ono of them. Mr. Isitt: No, I am'not An. Hon. member: Then what are you talking about? Mr. ISITT said they should drive with a silken rein. He described General Godley as a man of infinite tact and said New Zealand wa3 remarkably lucky to get such a man. Mr. LUKE said ho had a boy 1G yeaTS of age who could down him every time, but his heart was just burning out because, owing to defective sight, he had been rejected. Drill would do tho boy good, not harm. Mr. MILLAR said he did not know about this particular case, but tho principle adopted was that only thoso were rejected whom the medical men 6aid would suffer from the training. Rifles and Ammunition. Mr. ALLEN asked how many rifles the Government thought would be required, and would' the rifles be of the same type as those now in use in this country? Were the. British authorities likely to adopt a new rifle at an early date ?. If so wo ought to bo careful as to what we ordered.

Tho MINISTER said that 22,000 rifles would bo required, for the Territorials at present, that being tho strength of the force, which would ultimately be 30,000. There would bo a balancoof 17,000 rifles left for tho rifle clubs and the reserve. It would be folly to keep a large stock, as a new rifle might at any time be adopted by the British authorities. Mr. MYERS asked whether the Government would consider the question of making arrangements with the Colonial Ammunition Company to purchase its factory* 'for a national concern.

Tho MINISTER said the matter had not been considered. There was quite enough to do without that at present. Replying to Mr. Fisher, the Minister said that out of four officers- who took tho exa nination preparatory to going Home for training, two passed, ono qualified, nnd one failed. Mr. FISHER asked whether the one who came out on top would be the'one selected to go Home. Obviously such should be the case. Tho MINISTER said that one of the others might havo had longer service, and might bq able to confer more benefit on the Dominion. If that were so, ho would bo tho officer selected. Tho passage of the Defence Estimates was completed at 11.15 without amendment. GUARANTEED ADVANCES, THE BOARD ASSAILED. The New Zealand State Guaranteed Advances Account, total vote .£479,502, was taken next, the Hon. J. A. Millar being in charge. Mr. POLAND, speaking with special referenco to Waihi, said tho Department should not let its opinion as to tho future of a mining district cause it to refuse to hear applications for advances, as had beeu done. Considerable hardship had resulted in his district. He considered that mining at Waihi would go on for 50 years more. Ho moved a reduction of £1 in the item of ,£IOO, for members of the board not in tho Civil Service, as an indication of disapproval of the policy he had mentioned.

The MINISTER said tie board was not a charitable aid board, but a body tied down by law to make advances on sufficient security. It would lend according to the Act and not one penny more. The board employed competent valuers, who went round and valued the securities. The Government was not going to invest public money in securities that were not worth having. Reports of such a character had be«n received that the board would not be justified in advancing one penny in Waihi. This was in regard to the only security ■ there was at Waihi, the permanency of the mines. As to what the member for Grey had said, assuming that the Government had made a mistake in the- case of the State Coal Mine— he did not say it had—this supplied the strongest possible argument that could be advanced in support of the attitude adopted by the boara in refusing to make advances.

Sir Arthur GUINNESS said the Minister had evidently failed to appreciate the position. Up to a year ago tho board had made several advances in the township of Runanga. Now they refused to advance a penny. It was ridiculous to Ray that tho property in tho mining townships was of no value. Mr. W. H. BERRIES said tho trouble was that, after the House had passed an jVot providing for Ithe- re-cognition iof third-class- securities, the board had refused to recognise it. This was a wrong position for tho Government and tho board to take up. Mr. L. SI. ISITT declared that to him it seemed absolutely vicious that any attempt should bo raado to coerce this board. He hoped the board would stiffen up its backbone and refuse to be coerced. Mr. E. H. TAYLOR ventured the opinion ihat when he was dead and gone Waihi would be in its infancy. He would as soon lend money on Waihi security as on the security of Mr. Isitt's 6hop in Christchurch. At 0.30 a.m. there were twenty-seven members in the House- of whom four were extended in comfortable attitudes upon their benches. No new element entered the discussion until ■ ''.'■ The Hon. R. M'KENZIE rose to explain that the attitude of tho Opposition was inspired by the ffict that they represented the wealthy private lending institutions of tho country. He declared Hint the Opposition was delaying busiMγ. ANDERSON pointed out that the amendment hnd been proposed and supported by Government members. Twenty-nine members were in possession of their benches at one o'clock. Tho amendment was rejected on tho voices. The total vote of ii-179,502 was passed without amendment. (Left Sitting.)