THE COALITION IDEA.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1245, 29 September 1911, Page 6

THE COALITION IDEA.

1 GOVERNMENT AND OPPOSITION. INTERESTING DEBATE.' AFFIRMATIONS AND DENIALS. VEIL PARTLY LIFTED. ; In 'Hie House of Representatives yesterday afternoon Sir Joseph A\ ard said • wished to ask the member for Bruec a question.-'• 'Ho; referred to a statement published in the "Southland Times," and made by Sir. Allen, to the effect that, if Mr. Massey had ..wanted to bo a member of the Government, he could have been so several years ago, but that Mr.-Massey had stood by liis party, aud had remained faithful to his principles.' (Tho statement went on to say that the secret object of tho proposal made to Mr. Massey was that of a junction of tho Government and of tho Opposition to fight tho Labour Party, but- tho Opposition would not do a dirty tiiing liko that. Sir Joseph Ward said he would liko Air. Allen to inform-'him at' what time such an offer was made, where it was made, and by _ whom it. was made. He asked him—in fact, he challenged him-to reply to these questions.

Mr. Allen said tho statemont was approximately correct. 'J-'hero wero some words thcro that he did not think lie had Mied—something about a secret object. Ho'did not catch the'exact words. ..Apart from that, he repeated the statement was absolutely correct. "I repeat that here, he added, "and I say no _ more.. • .Negotiations were going on, and tho hon. gentleman who sits beside me coind say something on the point if lt» liked. Mr. lawry': Oh, get'out.' ■' Sir Joseph Ward:, Will you,state with whom tho negotiations were? Mr.' Allon: I'll.say no more. (Govern-ment-supporters:-Ah!-Ah!) ■ The Premier's Denial. Sir Joseph Ward: If those statement wero made outside tho House, thero. is only one word I would use in connection with them. Tho words I would use -aro that they are absolutely false. Mr. James-Allen: All right, use what words you like. Sir Joseph Ward added that he. had not at any time since he had been in tho Government himself authorised or authorised any other person to suggest that Mr. Massey or any other member of tho Opposition should join tho Government. (Hear, hear.) , Mr. Davey: Has not the Leader of the Opposition, told tho samo story?Mr. Massey: I'll tell .you presently. Sir Joseph AVard said the statement made implied, to him conduct) of tho most dishonourable .character —conduct that if it wero such as stated would prevent him from holding tho position he did. Her, however, had - never been puilty of such conduct. Ho iproposed to tell the House what ho believed, was responsible for this maligning of a circumstance that took place prior to the last general election. (A Government supporter: Ah!) Sir Joseph Ward: .Who is that? Mr. Massey: One o£ your own people. . Sir Joseph Ward said that at that time tho position of the two parties was that the Government party comprised sixty members, the . Opposition sixteen, and there wero .four Independents, three of whom regularly voted with the Government. Towards the end of that session tho Minister for Railways asked him t-o meet two gentlemen ot Parliament House. who were not supporters of the Government. He liad never , before mado any allusion to'what occurred on that occasion, as ho regarded tho matter as confidential. T)uring his absence from New Zealand Mr. Allen had apparently ienored tho confidential character of the matter, and in these .circumstances he thought ho..'was justified in putting the facts on record without naming tho two gentlemen concerned. The principal reason for his statement . was that;n,th« Christchurch 'Tress" of September 27 appeared an interview with Mr. Allen, in which he stated that ho was still perfectly satisfied that negotiations had been opened, and that if Mr. Massey had eared, to accept_ it ho would- have had a scat in the Ministry.

Mr.. Allen admitted tho correctness of the report, except as to one .statement. He did not say . that. the negotiations could only hat's been inspired by tho Premier.- '• The l'rime Minister: There is only one man in tho Government who can make any proposal to anybody to join tho Government, and that in tho Pnmo Minister. Now, Mr. Allen says he does not impute to ine that I inspired it. Would Not Entertain It. Continuing, Sir Joseph Ward said that as soon as lie saw-the interview with Mr. Allen that morning, lie made up hio mind-to deal' with it. Tlie two gentlemen wore introduced to him, and their ■•.interview with , liiin- took place outsido that Chamber, ami he did not eyen toko thorn into his room. He regarded it. as confidential, and was not going .to givo ' their names • away, as he did not : think it would be a proper thing to do.'

Mr. Fisher: Whom did tho two gentlemen represent ? Sir Joseph Ward: "You had-better ask them. Thev did not represent the Government. That is certain." The Primo Minister then read a litter which lio had written that day to the Hon. J. A. Millar, asking him to state what was his answer to the two gentlemen who interviewed him as referred to near tho c-nd of. the session prior to the last general election, and urged that a coalition between the two parties would in their opinion, and that .of their friends, Ix 3 desirable. Mr. Millar's reply (which the Primo Minister also read) waj that Sir Joseph Ward absolutely declined to discuss or entertain their proposals. There was hardly anybody in •the country at that time who did not know of the • suggestion that • tho two parties should coalesce, as it was appearing in tho press—though not in the ■ press of the Liberal, party. There was only ■ one • oilier person who ever made a statement to him at about that time concerning the same matter. It was a - gentleman who was opposed to him. Mr. JJiiisey: Was he a member of the House?

Sir J. Ward: No. He was a supporter of tho hon. gentleman outsile Uic .House. He (the Prime Minister; was ■ pasting through a certain town when the gentleman called on hini and-mentioned the position of the Opposition party, anil suggested, n/>t anything against.-tho,workers, but against an' extreme section that was •exercising the minds, of . tho people of the country. Tha gentleman- in question suggested that an .effort should . lie made to havo a strong parly, (iml 'sai-j that a iuiml>er of the members of his own party thought so. He (the Prime Minister)-gave tlu« same answer as he had given to tho two other gentlemen a fortnight .or ten days before. Ho heard 110 ■ more about it until lie received a cable from his colloaguo while lie was at Home, telling him of Mr. Allen's statement. He replied from .1/ondon, under data Jnne ]">, 11)11; "Allen's statement absolutely without foundation of ajiy kind. 1, never at any time cither suggested Massoy's inclusion *,in tlie Ministry or authorised anybody- else to do «>. I never lieitrd of the suggestion until I got your cable.—Ward." lie had never heard -until he received his colleague's cable.that ho had- suggested that Mr. Massey or any member of tho Opposition should 1)0 in tho Mini-itry. There was not ;in Opposition member of the House, nor a present or past member of the Ministry. hot any. member of the House wbo could say that ho (the Primo'Minister) had evw discussed soch an idea with him. Ho had never done'anything of tlie kind. Had lie done what hud been' suggested the only course opon to him.would have been to call his party togeiier'and tell them that ho was not prepared to carry on, ajid that ho .would resign. Not a word had been said between Mr. Massey and himself at any time, either directly or indirectly, of tho nature.indicated. Mr. Massey assented to this statement, Sir Joseph Ward said that if what had wen suggested was_ correct, ho would :avc been falso to his colleagues, becauso ,ie would have had to negotiate for others to take their places, and lie would have been false to his party in tho Parliament and in tho country. He told •' the two gentlemen who waited upon him at tho House that, with a party of such diversions, it would be useless to discuss the matter, and ho would not entertain it.

His speeches showed that he had never wavered from doing his clear duty to lus party, to tho House, aud tho country. He had nover entered into any political intrigue, and had never asked any member of his party to do so. Had ho done what had been suggested, ho would not have remained tho leader of the party for an hour. If tho party got into difficulties that required anything different from the usual procedure, and it' they would not give him tho support required, he would resign the leadership. If he lind to go out of the House, ho would go out without intrigue. (Much applauso from Ministerial supporters.) Mr. Massey's Statement. Mr. Massey said that lie had had one or two- opportunities of intriguing, but he had never taken advantage of these opportunities. Ho now endorsed what tho member for Bruce had stated. He knew ail that liad taken place. Mr. Hemes aud Mr. Buchanan and others outside the Houso could endorse what he was going to say, and it was this: A little over three years ago, prior to the last election, cxtremo pressure had been brought to bear upon him, not only in Wellington, but also in Christchurch and Dunediu and Auckland,, to induce him to say that, if given tho opportunity, he would join tho Government party. ' / A Government supporter:. Who by? Mr. Massey: I have got the correspondence. Sir Joseph Ward: Tho lion, gentleman does, not suggest that it had been done .by 'me-? •Mr. Massey: Certainly not. •Mr.'Allen: Nor do I. Mr. Massey : i\o. Thai is perfectly candid, and I am very glad tho right' lion, -gentleman -has given me the opportunity of saying so. He again stated that estremo pressure had been brought to bear upon him and another member of the Houso in tho matter. Mr. Hogan: Is that n'hy you said you could have been ih the Ministry? . Mr. Massey: Extreme press-are was brought to bear, and a Wellington organisation and branches of that organisation ono after another had sent him letters showing the advantages from his own personal point of view and the point of view of the country as a whole that would come frooi such a coalition. Government members: The Farmers' Union. Another member: Why don't you publish the correspondence? Mr. Massey: The proposal was a very serious one. It came from moro than tiro gentlemen, ami some of them were prominent supporters of the party in power. . (Opposition hear, hears.) He (Mr. Massey) had taken time to consider the proposal, but his instincts were against it from the first. Neither was this the first overture that had been .made in the direction stated. Six years ago a similar suggestion -had been made,.though it- did not? go to the same extent. He had consult'ed his friends about the last overtures, and tliey were of the same opinion as ho himself. They had come to the conclusion iliat it would be neither in the interest,? of the country nor in the interests of.the party that ho should do what was suggested. Ho felt that to do what "had been suggested would be wrong' and that it would, be exceedingly disloyal to the party with which for so many years he had. been connected. "I gave them to understand." concluded Mr. Massey, '.'that nersonally 1 would sooner go out of Parliament than leave tho men who had worked with me for so many years past." Mr. Millar's Remarks. The Hon. J. A. Millar said that the inference contained in Mr. Allen's statement was that Mr. Massey had been approached by the l'rime Minister to join his Cabinet. Mr. Allen: I did not'say that. Mr. Millar continued that Mr. Massey admitted that lie might have had pressure from his own party, and the pressure,might have come from his own party with a view to wiping it out altogether. Ho endorsed what the Prime -Minister had stated.

, There were calls for the member for Bruce, and then. Mi". J. A. Hanan (Tnvercargill) asked why Mr. Allen did not explain nis position. lie assured the House that the member of the "Southland Times"- staff, who reported Mr. Allen's spfoeii was a fair, just, and honest reporter, who should be protected from any suggestion of misreportlng. Mr. J. T. Koran (Wrtnganui) said tho Government parry would never Imvo Mr. Massey in its ranks; It knew him too well. , , A voice: You liavo no voico in the matter. Mr. C. A. C. Hardy (Selwyn) said that, the Opposition party had been asked to cast in its lot with tho Government in order to resist the inroads of Socialism. That request was contained in_a x circulai issued by a largo association in Christchurch. Mr. Ell: The Farmers' Union? • Mr. Hardy: It was not the Farmers' Union. He still had a copy of the circulai in his possession. The matter was discussed six years ago and threo years ago. Ho wa.s consulted by Mr. Massey when his leader was approached on the matter. Mr. D. M'Laren (Wellington East) said the proposal for a coalition of tho two existing parties for the purpose of downing. Labour \va.s very curious because at that time there,was no political Labour party in existence in New Zealand. But at' that time there was considerable unrest as a. result of tbo amendments which had just been, made in the Conciliation and Arbitration Act, and tho Labour organisations throughout the country were up in arms. Tho Employers' Association, which included .members 1 , of both the principal political parties, were so much scared at the rising tide of Socialism that it wanted a combination of the two political parties, so that thero should be one party to fight the Labourites, who had no political party. It was a remarkably courageous proposition. Mr. M'.Lnren added that any effort to sweep back tho Labour movement that was surging throdgh the Dominion would be von- much of the nature of Mrs. Partington s attempt to sweep back the ocean with hor broom.

A Clearing of the Air. Mr. 6. W. Russell (Avon) said there had. been a clearing of the air, and ho did not envy the position of the member for Bruce. Tho statement by Mr. Allen that Mr. Massey could have been a member of tho Ministry several years, ago, if |ie had wished, must havo meant that an offer had been mado to .Mr. Massey by somebody who had authority to make it. The statement made by' Mr. Massey that afternoon showed that was not tho case. Did the member for Bruce think that a suggestion' made by an association of farmers or an association of employers could say anything that would justify the statement that Mr. Massey could havo beou a member of the Ministry if ho had wished? Ho called on Mr. Allen and Mr. Massey to make tho amende Jionorable.

Mr. W. C. Buchanan (Wairarapa) said the discussion was rather belated. Tho subject of coalition had been discussed in political circles for years. He had been 'approached more thau once by leading men in the confidence- of the Government in different parts of the country, suggesting a coalition between a certain section on the Government sido and a certain section on tho Opposition side. Was it possible that, they would stij- 50 without any authority whatever? lie-'quoted from a speech made by tho Hun. T. Mackenzie,' at Goodwood, before he became a Minister, in which he claimed to be a strong advocate of the freehold, and to have always been at hand to "knock tho Single-taxers on the head." (Laughter.) Several of his (Mr. Buchanan's) friends told him that Mr. Mackenzie was advocating a junction between two sections of members of Parliament. He (Mr. Mackenzie) went- from place to placo in tlio colony, recommending this fusion between two parties. In a good many instances tho statements were specifically made to him (Mr. Buchanan) that, Mr. s Mackenzie had advocated this on different- occasions. It would be quite easy, wero he not under the bond of m>crecy, to name more than tlio number of tho fingers on his two hands of prominent men on the Government side who had had no hesitation at all in advocating what lie had been speaking of, and they did so in tho strongest possible manner, as the only way to put down tlio Single-taxers and Socialists. The members of the Opposition who would bo received on the other side were named, and two Opposition members wero named for tho Ministry, so there was no secret mado of it. The House and tho country could come to their own conclusions as to how those various gentlemen could havo got so far as to give these names. The House and the country could form their own opinions as to -whether the whole thing was the invention of those gentlemen or whether they had any Ministerial authority for what they said. He was sure the members on both sides of tho House would reccivo his statement

as an honest and bona fido one, so far as tho facts had como to his notice. "Nothing to Withdraw." . Mr. .Tames Allen (Bruce) said he believed that what lie had said had been absolutely proved by the debate. lie had said that negotiations were going on. Voices: Who between?. Mr. Allen: It has been shown this afternoon that, negotiators went to the Prime Minister : .Mr. Laurensou: Well, upon my word! Mr. Allen: I do not know who tlieso men were. I know that two men, who, I presume, wore the same who approached the Prime .Minister, came to the Leader of the Opposition. Tliey were not tho only 111011 who camo to the Leader of tho Opposition. There were many others. 1 liavo never saiil that tho Prime Jlinister originated any negotiations, but it has been proved that the Prime Minister knew that negotiations were going on, and that negotiators camo to him. In my opinion, the Loader of the Opposition might have been a member of the Ministry—and also another member of this party. The Prime Minister: That is not so.

Mr. Allen: I give that as my opinion based on a good deal that I know. Members of the Houso may believe it. ir not, just exactly as they like. I have nothing to withdraw. What I have said on the public platform has been proved by the Prime Minister to a largo extent. Voices: Nothing liko it. Tho Prime Minister declined to negotiate. . Mr. Allen: I have given my opinion, and I repeat that Mr. Massey, if lie had liked, could haw. been a member of the Ministry. Mr. J. C. Thomson (Wallace) said that the one object, of Mr. Allen's statement was to show that the Government was a concentrated essence of political men'dacity. Mr. Allen had used half-truths, which were the blankest of lies, aud any man who gained election to the Housa bv half-truths was not deserving of the respect of his constituents.

Mr. T. M. Wilford (Hutt) had risen ito speak, when the Speaker, ruling to a point of order, raised by Air. F. M. 13. Fisher (Wellington Central), said that tho debate was being carried on •with the indulgence of the House, and must cease if any member objected. Mr. Fisher: I object. Mr. Wilford: Dees the point of order raised by a member of tho Opposition prevent me as a member of the Government party from putting my side before the country? ■The Speaker bowed assent. Mr. C. IT. Poole (Auckland West), addressing Mr. Fisher- That is very nice. You are a democrat.