THE BUDGET DEBATE.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1234, 16 September 1911, Page 6

THE BUDGET DEBATE.

THE GOVERNMENT'S POLICY

DISSECTED.

KEEN CRITICISM BY MESSRS. ALLEN

AND HERDMAN.

MR. FISHER ON CABINET CHANGES

REPLIES 'BY MINISTERIALISTS.

Tho debate on tho Financial Statement was continued in the Houso of Representatives yesterday.

Mr. J. F. Arnold (Dunedin Central), the first speaker, mado a remark or two about the Opposition party. ("Tho Eeform party," a member corrected.) Ho had heard that the Opposition had reformed, and -believed that to some extent they 'had. The Opposition, or Conservative party, of to-day would become the Liberal party of to-morrow, and tho Liberal' party of today , would become the Radical party of to-morrow. (Mr. Fisher: '■' Tho Ridicule party.") AVhatever namo tho advanced party was called by, whether Labour or Badjcal party, it would always bo ahead, and ho would bo a member of it so long as. he was in tho House. So far as the pTesont Opposition were concerned they were as dead as Julius. Caesar, and in his opinion too much Government criticism was directed against them. Ho congratulated the Prime Minister on the- Budget, and ho' did so because it was tho most progressive Budget that had yet been introduced by him. It was particularly satisfactory in that thcro was a". large surplus and a record revenue. Ho referred also to;tho distress and unrest among the working classes in the Old Land. The unrest existed because- burdens heavier than'they could bear'were,being imposed: ■upon:the workers, and he.was glad to see. that the. Prime Minister' had expressed his willingness, either by commission or by Bome.other means, to deal with the matter. It was tho greatest problem to which he oonld possibly givo his '. attention. Ho hoped the proposed commission would do some considerable good, and when it was'inquiring into the causes of tho high cost of living it would deal with the question of Protection V. Free-trade. This question;, could not be investigated without a commission because so many trades, all in their, turn, protected, contributed to the production of tho finished article purchased by the consumer. . Very often, if the'amount of protection wa= calculated, it would amount in all to nearly 70 or 80 per cenit. Protective duties in this way ;added considerably to the cost of living. He discussed tho .Government's unemployment insurance scheme, approving of it dealing with a problem worth consideration, but one very difficult of solution. Hβ thought that what tho worker really wanted was the right to work; rather than that they should get certain payments for periods when they were ; out of work.

Mr. Wilford: How can. you have a right to work without maldn<j work conipulBory?.-

Mr. Arnold: That is one of tho things •we can settle -when the Bill comes down. I'm not sure that we oould not have compulsory labour. And, he continued, this , might be provided for under a scheme of reafforestation. SPEECH BY MR'. JAMES ALLEN. THE-BUDGET KEENLY CRITICISED. Itrl' James 'Allen (Bruce), the s next speaker, refuted th,e suggestion that the Opposition or Eeform party was dead. It was,' 1 oft" tho contrary, very much alive, and - lie -hoped it -would come back next year very much' strengthened in numbers. From /what Mr. Arnold had said, it was, quito clear that ho was dissatisfied thor-' ' oughly with the Government, and he (the Speaker) hoped that Mr. Arnold might so far modify his views as to make him a candidate for membership of the Reform party. At anyrate, it was quite clear that he was dissatisfied at present —he was lookiiw for tho Evangel. He congratulated Mr. Arnold- also on the serious consideration He had given to the question of insurance against unemployment. He assured Mr. Arnold and the Government that there were members of the Opposition party who would do all they could to assist the Government to put" on the Statute Book a measure of this, kind that might, go some way towards its '.ostensible object. He accused' the Government of toying with the subject as they had with the promised local government reform scheme. The Government was also failing in its duty to Otago, in that it lad failed to expend an appropriation of ,£IOO,OOO for irrigation of arid areas in New Zealand. He objected tha - more to this on account of 'tho amount of money they wasted- all over tho country.

A Government member: How is it bein<» ■wasted?

Mr. Allen.: On railways for one thin". Mr. Poole: Tho Duaiedin-Mosgiel dunlication! ■ . . •

Mr. Allen: The Dunedin-Mosgiel duplication is one item, the Hutt duplication Is another—

The Prime Minister: That is not so.-' Mr. Allen: "And every mile of;railway that is constructed in. this country is another. There had been waste, he continued, in the Midland Railway, and there had been waste, in the -construc- ™« a railway ia. his \dwu district. .Let the present cost of the .'railways be compared with that of 15, or 20 years ago. The Prime Minister:, Compare with other countries. It is the earn©- all over the world. ~

Mr. Alien said ho would come to comparisons later on. iTho .• railways were costingta lay ,£3OOO or : ,£4OOO moro. per wile. xTe believed the increase was reiillv larger than this. The actual cost per mile was about ,£II,OOO, and this heavy rate was largely owing to- wasteful methods of construction. "Hangina on to Office." So far as the Government policy measures were concerned, he did not propose to say much, because these measures were not introduced seriously, but -merely to be discussed in order that the Government might :adopt 'the opinions expressed, and put them in later Bills. i Mr. Poole: Isn't that very wiso?Mr. Allen: Well, is it wise? It is not the way a politician would act. Mr. Massey: A statesman wouldn't do it.

Mr. Allen: "No, a statesman would say: I put it my way, and if you don't agree with it, I'll go out.'of, office. This is merely a way of hanging on to office. That is tho secret of the whole thin", and I'm not going to let tho Itovernment lead mo into discussing these measures to-day." Tho Budget had been framed with extraordinary _ haste, he continued. It t was full of inaccuracies and misrepresentations. The Prime Minister had frequently charged the Onposition with having misrepresented thfngs in such a ,way as to spoil the-, credit of the country:, but ho iu turn, had damaged the credit of the country by misrepresenting in his Budget the amount of the public debt;.' As a matter of fact, tho'Prime Minister had made out tho public debt to be..somewhat larger than it actually was by. neglecting to deduct from it certain items—sinking funds, etc.—which had been-. deducted in past years, end which if subtracted this year would have. reduced tho public debt to some seventy-seven millions instead of eighty'million's.' He remarked upon thi> abuses which had grown up in the Government by reason of the Ministry remaining so long in office. /The state of things within the'Cabinot was shown by tho two resignations,from tho Ministry which had' occurred. The party hall been living on its traditions and its name-label, Mr. IWldis had said. They had this name a.nd 'nothing more. A Government member: You have besn .'hanging your name-label every year. Mr. Allen went on quoting from tho '.tntcment made by Mr. Fovrlds at Auckland—that sentence about the. adhesion to t!ie party of people attracted to it by hopo of gain. ' ' • ■ Hon. T. Mackenzie: But you "don't believo everything IWlds says, do you? Mr. Allen said this criticism, which was what ono of the members of tho Cabinet thought of it, was one o£ tho Foveicst that the Ministry had ever received. Ha

went on to refer to indiridunl item) in tho Budget as showing traces of carelessness or., haste in compilation. In tho analysis of tho debt there was the item, Railways whereas refercuco to tho Kn-ilway Statement would show that the 'amount expended on railways was thirty-one millions. > Tho Prime- .Minister: Has that ell been borrowed ?

Mr. Allen then wanted to know whero the money luul coiuo from if it hnd not como from borrowed money paid into the Public AVorks Fund. Another niisrcpresentation was in that paragraph which stated that the railways had earned more revenue because of tho increase in trade. AVas. this t.rue? AVas it not partly because of tho increase of taxation to the extent of JiIOO.OOO by way of the railways, and because , there were 58 miles move of railway to run that (he railways earned more revenue? Ite pointed out other misrepresentations in regard to telegraph mid telephone- lines—that they earned their own interest or capital cost. Last" year there had been a loss" on telegraph lines of without paying any interest.

"The Btirden of Our Debt." Mr. Allen then dealt with tlie already muck-debated topic—the division of the debt into interest-bearing' and non-inter-est-beariug. He admitted, at. once that the division "was a- reasonable enough one. Every man know that the money borrowed under the Advances to Workers and Advances to Settlers Acts was interest-bearing. . The trouble was that all the money would have to be repaid some time Or other. This, was why tlje Opposition was worried about the now borrowing.going-on. In spite of the Prime Minister's statement to the contrary, there. was' not a man, woman, or child in the , country who believed that;the burden of odr debt was being less felt by the people. The annual interest bill to-day.was ,£2,400,000, as com.-', pared with <£1,851,000 in 181)3. A great deal of trouble had been taken in working out a lot of tables seeming to show that the .debt was a diminishing load to the taxpayer. ' Why had it been done ? It could have been done only for. self-glorifi-cation and self-laudation. Generally, Mr. Allen found fault with the inaccuracies in-the Budget, some of them serious inaccuracies, making it absolutely misleading and unreliable. THE GOVERNMENT LAND POLICY. AS EXPOUNDED BY ME, RUSSELL. Mr. G. W, Russell (Avon) remarked that as to what Mr. Allen had said about Mr. Fowlds's statement when he resigned ho had' read into it a great deal more than' Mr. Fowlds had intended. He believed that Mr.' Fowlds would come back, not with the idea of creating a new party, but with a desire to ■ help the Liberal party forward .oil tho path of t-ruo. progress. The Leader of the Opposition nad been himself very anxious to go to london, and only a desire to make hay while .tho sun shone had induced him to remain in New Zealand whilo the Prime Minister was away., With tho growth of the country in. all its revenue and in all .its various aspects, it was idle to suggest that it would hare any difficulty in meeting its. financial obligations. He did r.ot believe the present prosperity _ would continue if there was a change of Government. }./ Mr. Malcolm: The sun. would not shine any more. . ~ Mr.. Russell: If that hon. gentleman entered Cabinet there would be a great deal of inoonshino about. Mr. Fisher: 1' ou would be moon-struck. Mr. Russell contended that- prosperity and sound finance had been features of tho Liberal Administration. The Budget was full of hope and help and brightness to the poor and to those who were not able to fight well in lifers battle. Numerous recognitions had come from the other side of good features in the Budget. It had been declared time after time that the Government had no land, policy. The 'policy of the Government on the land "question was what was now'in the law. Tho total area opened for settlement last year was 2,305 ; fjG6 acres. Further . lajge ,areas were being made available. The country wais being settled at an enormous rate under .the" enactments which enshrined tho land policy of the Government." Tenure had nothing; to, do/with-it. Enough land was being opened under the optional system to satisfy the most ardent freeholder. In the year ended March' 31, 1911, no fewer than 831,443 acres of Crown lands were settled. Tho Government did not need any alteration in their land policy unless it were to obtain more land for settlement in the closely-populat-ed parts of New Zealand. The Government would be disappointed in the effect of tho graduated tax. It did not press lund enough.

MR. HERDMAM'S CRITICISM.

I LAND AND LABOUR PROBLEMS. | Mr. A. L. Herdman (Wellington North) replied first of all to certain statements [•mad? by the member for AvonS He supported much-of-what Mr. Allen liad ; said during the afternoon by way of criticism of the Government's financial methods as revealed in the Budget. When a > member, of the Opposition did 'anything: of tho kind, Mr. KusseTl and his friends called that "nagging." When the members on the front benches of his own side of the House plunged the country, into debt at the ■ rate of sis millions a year ho called, that "statesmanship." In the endeavour to show that the Government had prosecuted a vigorous land settlement policy Mr. Russell had said that the Government had. settled 1,412,742 acres of land. But he did not tell the House that included in that total wore some 641,000 'acres of pastoral runs which had been settled before. Tho leases were merely renewed. 'Although' now 'the member for iAvon professed- to. be perfectly satisfied that the land policy of the Government needed no change, he had in June last professed himself a leaseholder, and again on another occasion a'few months later ,hp:had said that-it did not matter what form, of tenure .was adopted. Was this .because a vacancy had occurred in tho Cabinet in tho meantime? Mr. Russell -had said that ho was perfectly well pleas-ed-with tho Budget, but yet it was inaccurate and misleading as Mr. Allen had proved in his speech. Tho Budget showed ' ,no Treasury Bills in thoir balance-sheet of March 31, but immediately afterwards they , were put into oirculafion again. This method of finance was "slippery,"' and could, not be justified by the member for' Avon. A Point of Order. The Prime Minister rose to a point of order,; claiming-that the word "slippery" was unparliamentary. He went on, however,'to make something in the nature of an-explanation or a -retort to statements which he said wero put "in a most offensive' way." He also' said that Mr. Hordman was attempting to do something "politically dishonourable" by not stating the true position.

'. Meantime the Prime Minister' had been twico directed by the Speaker to confine his attention to the point of order. The Minister, then explained that tho law required that at tho end of the financial year certain Treasury Bills should be repaid. ' Afterwards Treasury Bills might bo'issued, but they wero not again issued as part of tho nennanent debt of the country. Tho Speaker hold, however, that tho word was not out of'order.

Mr. Herdman said his pointy and it was a perfectly clear point, was that the true position was not put before tho people of this country- Since'these Treasury'-Bills had been reissued the ■ Prime Minister had no right to boast that ho had paid them off. He could' not understand tho reference made by tho member for Avon to the statenient made by Mr. F-owlds •when ho resigned from tho Ministry. To bis mind what had been said by the late Minister for Education in tho House and out of the House clearly meant that he had retired from the:Govwnment because it had no principle. Ho far as he could mako out. .Mr. IWlds considered that the Government had no policy. It was not sufficiently progressive or sufficiently radical fnr his tastes. Mr. IWlds' had entered tliu Government as a Radical. After an experience of jive years— and not an external experience, but from nn intimate knowledge of the methods of tho Government and from an intimate knowledgo of what was in the minds of Ministers of the Crown—came to the conclusion that ho could no longer sit with them,, that they liad no principle, and that, he must go out. Tho Budget was in some senses remarkable. In other tenses it merited tho thoughtful disapproval of the people of the country. , After careful consideration, ho had concluded tha'c it represented a desperate effort by a debilitated Government to rehabilitate itself. Nineteen page.s of the Budget represented an effort by the Prime Minister, to defend his past policy. This portion might bo described as an "apologia pi'o vita sua." I The Prime Minister! Oui! Ouil

Land and Other Questions. TJie one question that affected peoplo in tho North Island, iu the cities and in tlio country alike, was tho laud question. A great part.of tho land in the north was owned and held by people who did not turn it to account, wlio allowed rabbits and noxious weeds to grow upon it, while there were young man anxious to occupy the land, and make use of it. Why 'was not Eomo plain, 1)91(1 statement made as to how the Native lands'might bo quickly dealt with aiid thrown open for settlement? Next iio referred to what he termed that interesting institution, tho Legislative Council, concerning which the Budget might have been expected to contain something. Instead of using its position as a legislative body to check the precipitancy of a democratic Chamber instead ot' doing this, the members of it were ready to do the bidding of those who appointed them to their positions. Ho condemned tho Government's lack of system in their railway policy as shown by tho declaration a year ago that, the railways were to bo made to pay, and tho raising of the fares aud rates with that object, and on tho other hand the reduction of tho fares again. He declared, also, that .the public servants of the country would be much better off if controlled by a board instead of by an autocratic Minister. The retrenchment which had to be carried out three years ago was the result of Ministerial incompetence. "Irritating Legislation." , To his mind they should induce men to invest money in every possible industry. By means of taxation and of irritating legislation the Government was unquestionably discouraging industrial enterprise. Nothing in the Budget would lead a reasonable man to suppose that anything was being done to stimulate industries in the cities. The president of tho Bank of New Zealand had said in June last that an abundance of money was available in New Zealand, but tho scape of its employment was limited. Capitalists were undoubtedly mado nervous by tho attitude of Labour.

Mr. Poland: Have you tho Minister for Agriculture's reply? Mr. Herdman: No. I didn't take any notice of it. There was no doubt that tho general trend of the Government policy had injured tho workingmen of the Dominion by discouraging the investment of capital in industry. It was the worker and not tho'capitalist who suffered in these circumstances. Much of tho Government legislation had caused workers and employers to drift apart. ' Mr. M'Laren: Is that condition exceptional in New Zealand?

Mr. Herdman: It is, I believe, moro aggravated here than anywhere else. (Liberal protests.) Tho Court of Arbitration had done harm.

, Mr. M'Laren: I Would you abolish it? , Mr. Herdman: I would repeal the Arbitration Act to-morrow. Justico should Ire given to the worker and employer, but under,the arbitration law a union, could drag tho employer to the court and strike afterwards if it so desired. The method of solving industrial problems in this country was exceedingly unsatisfactory. Speaking of education, Mr. Herdman said that more liberal provision might well Iμ made for the Universities. The struggle between nations in tlie future would be not between army and army, but between diplomat and ditilomat. In every department; of life there would.be in future a struggle of brain against brain'. A judicious encouragement ot the Universities would lead ■ ultimately to better, government, wiser laws, and more health, happiness and prosperity in thif Dominion.

MR. LAURENSON ON EDUCATION.^ LAND TAX INADEQUATE. , Mr. G. Laurenson (Lyttelton) opened by speaking strongly in defence of the Death Duties Act. ■ A stiff .increase in tho graduated land tax would induce' realisation of the Leader of the Opposition's statement that plenty of land was available. Tho member, for . .Taranaki had proposed that the old age pension shonld be made universal.. This was simply proposing, on a side-wind, that the old ago pension should, be abolished. At present it cost .£350,000 to giv© tho pension to one person-in three who' reached tho age. of G5 years'. It would cost Jit,050,000 to make tho pension universal. Tho member far Taranaki, in'stating that the people; of this country were taxed annually to the amount of >£10 per head, had failed to distinguish between revenue from taxation and revenue received for services ren•dered. The member for Wellington North had said that Mr. Fowlds had retired because the.' Government had no principle. A more egregious statement it was impossible to imagine. Mr. Laurenson quoted from tho statement made by Mr. -Fowlds when he resigned with a view to rebutting. Mr. Herdman's presentation of the position. He expressed a fear that the Opposition having attacked everybody, including judges, would next attack the Governor. He congratulated the Prime Minister on the humanitarian proposals contained in the Budget, and predicted that they would prove popular in the country, pur education should bo so amended as to give children a love for work and the ability to produce wealth. At present too many pupils left schools with a tolerable English education, but fitted only to be clerks or something of tho kind. He hoped tho Prime Minister would realise that his proposals in regard to land taxation were inadequate. ' ! ,Mr. Okey stated in personal explanation that he favoured- universal pensions on a contributory basis. His estimate of .£lO pt>T head being raised 'in taxation from tho people of tho Dominion was based upon the permanent and annual appropriations including interest upon the railways and loans. \ MR. FISHER'S SPEECH. COMMENTS ON RECENT' CABINET CHANGES. ' Mr. F. M. B. Fisher (Wellington Central) declared that the member for Avon had objected, in his speech, to the Opposition doing what he had done himself in 1901. At that timo he was on the 'point of joining the Opposition. Then he was a disappointed member of .the Government party. Now he Was an expectant member. Tho Budget was an electioneering' document pure and simple. It neglected only two classes, lunatics and collectors of raoa bones. It contained a magnificent account of what tho Liberal party had not done during tho twenty-one years it -had been in office, and an equally magnificent account ■of what it might do if it remained in office. The Government, with its. majority, could have put on tho Statute Book a dozen of the Bills mentioned in tho Budget if it had so desired. Yet it had passed only two Bills this session. Tlio Government asked to be returned to power to pass Bills which it could have passed and had .not. It Was an unprecedented .thing that an increase in wages to Civil Servants should be notified in tho Budget. Dealing with recent changes in the Cabinet and its present constitution, Mr. Fisher remarked that - the. real reasons for the resignation of the Hon. Georg? Fowlds had neither been disclosed nor discussed. Probably one reason was that Mr. Fowlds disapproved tho land-tax proposals of tho Government. _ Recent events suggested that the Cabinet of itself was dissolving. U'he Minister for Education had gone. "There sits tho Minister for Agricul-' ture," said Mr. Fisher, "hoping against hopo that the Government, may send him Home as High Commissioner." The representative of tho party in the Upper House' had been forced into tho position that he must put his Liberalism into the crucible and come before the people. Tho member for Lyttelton sat beside tho member 1 , for Avon, and tho bench trembled from the agitation of their fluttering hearts." (Laughter.) Who Would be Sent For? Bach was wondering who would bo "sent for." "Who will be chosen," asked Mr.'Fisher, "and sit in tho corner there? Who will be tho new corner-man of the Ministry?" (Laughter.) It had been said that theso two members raced for the Frimo Minister's room when the nows arrived, and that tho member for Lyttelton got inside first. * Tho member for Avon, however, put his mouth to the keyhole aud said: "Don't forget me; my principles can bo changed just how you like!" (Laughter.)

Mr. Russell roso at this stage and indignantly demnndcel whether it. was iu accordance with the dignity of Parliament (hat a man should make such absolutely untruo and false statements. (Oh! 'Oh!) Mr. liussell obeyed tho instruction of tho Speaker (o withdraw the unparliamentary expression. Language did not exist, he said, iu which ho could characterise tho statement that Mr. Fisher had just made about him, It would, perhaps,

bo believed by somo people in this country who did not know Sir. Fisher as well as his 'fellow-members.

Mr. Fisher said he had no hesitation in withdrawing his story.

Mr. Speaker announced that Mr. Fisher must accept tho denial nttered by Mr. Kusscll.

Air. Fisher readily, obeyed tho ruling, remarking that possibly the member for Avon got insido tho door first, and the member for Lytteltqn got shut out! (Laughter.) He believed that any party that went into oflico in this country for one month and furnished tho information that had boon asked for repeatedly by members, and as often refused, would bo rendering a national service. The House might more profitably endeavour to provide a guarantee of employment than promoto insurance against unemployment. Mr. Fisher advocated nationalisation of tho oil industry, and of transport services. Ho also declared that ho desired to see a tariff wall erected for the encouragement and protection of industries.

Mr. Poole, at this stage, from time to time made approving interjections.

"I wish you would stop thoso American remarks," complained Mr. Fisher. And then ho went on to criticise adversely the New Zealand administration of the great Public Departments. Referring; again to the land settlement figures quoted by tho member for Avon, he pointed out still inoro things that Mr. Kussell had omitted to stato. He had forgotten to state that of the land settled 328,743 acres were forfeited or surrendered by 311 people, making the aggregate amount of land settled in the year 74,407 acres, the lowest in any year since the Lands for Settlement Acts camo into foTce. AVhy was it that people were leaving Now Zealand and going to Australia to look for land? AVas it not because there was not in New Zealand a vigorous, effectivo policy of land settlement? Ho agreed with Mr. Laurenson that reform in our education system was necessary. Particularly, ho thought, there should be something done to foster agricultural education. There ought to be a Chair of Agriculture established, and funds for it might easily be obtained by getting the Public. AVorks Minister to save a million or so a 'year from the waste that was going on in public works expenditure.

Mr. C. Hall (AVaipawa) moved the adjournment, of the debate at 11.30 p.m., and the House rose.'