THE MOKAU INQUIRY.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1222, 2 September 1911, Page 5

THE MOKAU INQUIRY.

SOME INNER HISTORY. VERY REMARKABLE EVIDENCE. MR. BOWLER CLOSELY QUESTIONED INTERESTING STATEMENTS. Tho Native Affairs Committee continued tho Alokau inquiry yesterday. Members present worn the chairman (Mr. AV. T. Jennings), Sir Jos. Carroll, tho Hon. A. T. Ngala, Dr. To liangihiroa, and Messrs. H. ,1. ]I. Grecnslade, F. Mander, T. 13. Y. Seddon, B. Dive, AV. 11. Herries, and T. Messrs. AA 7 . P. Massey, F. G. Dalziell, and J. Jones were present. Tho examination of Mr. AV. H. Bowler, president of the AVaikato-Alaniapoto Maori Land Board was continued. Mr. Dive followed up some questions in regard to the first meeting of assembled owners with tho query. "I understand that you confirmed tho salo of this land before (lie Ordcr-in-Couneil?" AVitness said this was done absolutely subject to verification. The board confirmed subject to the Order-in-Couucil being gazetted. Mr. Divo: Why did you take Mr. Dalziell's word? Witness: Could we not lake his word? Mr, Dive: Why .did you? Would you have taken any other individual's word? Witness: Not to tlio atmo extent as I would take a solicitor's word. Mr. Dive: Why did you take tho word of an interested party? Witness: Our decision was subject to verification of his statement. Mr. Divo: My question is, why (lid you tnko an interested person's word? Witness said ho had only taken Mr. Dalziell's word to an extent. If tho Or-der-iu-Council had not been issued, tho resolution would havo been valueless. Aro not the laws made for your guidance 'Yes. Why do you not conform to them; why do you take outside statements?— Our proceedings were entirely in accordance with law. Usual and Unusual. Having answered some further questions, witness was asked by Mr. Herries: "Is it usual to get instructions from tho Minister in regard to meetings of assembled owners?— Not unusual. Is it' usual in cases where I'licto is a private application, or is it usual where the Crown has an interest?—lt is usual where tho Crown has an interest. Do you know of another case where instructions have como from tho Minister where the Crown has not had an interest? —No. To another question witness replied that tho letter from the Minister convoying instructions to hold the meeting of assembled owners, stated that the meeting was for tho purpose of considering tho salo of tho land to Mr. Lewis for tho sum of ,£25,000, or at-such greater sum as was found by Government valuation to bo tho value of tho owners' interest. lie recommended tho issuing; of tho Order-in-Council because ho considered it in tho interests of all parties that _it should issue, lioth Messrs. Skerrctt and Dalziell addressed tho board on the matter. He was himself mainly responsible for suggesting tho adjournment because ho saw that there was no prospect of unanimity. It was quite usual to, adjourn in such eases. Sometimes meetings terminated in such circumstances, but in this case (hero was a strong faction in favour of selling. There was 110 suggestion that tho matter should drop. If the board had been anxious to force the proceedings through, he could' liavo declared the resolution carried. ITo understood that tho application camo from Hermann Lewis and had not hear.l of a company. A meeting of tho board was hold at Auckland on tho same day as the assembled owners mot lor tho third time at To lvuiti. Ho attended the meeting at Auckland. The first intimation ho had regarding tho .€2500 was from tho report at the third meeting of owners over which Judgo Holland presided. Tho meeting of the board confirming the resolution was held at Auckland on March 23. 110 got' Mr. Holland's report on March 23. In the first place he had an intimation by wire that the resolution had been carried and thought, but could not say definitely, that he got tho report oil March 23. Mr. Ilerries said lie noticed that at the. meeting of assembled owners Tuiti Macdonald niado a proposal in regard to tlio ■£2500,_ which was afterwards withdrawn. Did witness know what the proposal was? Witness said he did not, but he understood it was in reference to the allocation of shares between tho different parties. Mr. Herries: What conditions wore imposed by tho board precedent to confirmation of tho sale? Witness stated- that tho . confirmation was issued by the board conditional on tho Natives having other land, and the Ordcr-in-Couneil being issued and further that tho purchase money was paid within throe months. Mr. Herries: Wo hear that conditions were imposed by the Maori Land' Hoard in regard to cutting up tho block. Witness said there was an arrangement with tho purchasers that tho land should bo cut up within three years, Mr. Herries: That is not mentioned in tho resolution?— No. "No Statutory Authority." Under what, clause did you make that arrangement?— There was ' no statutory authority. It was simply an arrangement between ourselves, as agent for for the • Natives, and the purchaser. Further .questioned, witness said ho did , not think,(hero was anything in writing ; from Mr.-Dalziell, but an agreement had ; been subsequently signed. It wa§ an agreement octiveen tho board and Mr. Lewis. The board was to execute a transfer, and Mr." Lewis was to pay .£25,000 and tlio shares. ' I The agreement Was produced. ; Witness .said the agreement was that . tho board should sell tlio land to tho pur- • chaser for tho sum specified, that tho purchase money should bo paid to llio board in one sum, and that the land should bo vested in the president of tlio board, as trustee, to hold so as to ensuro that tho limitation provisions of tlio Act should be enforced. Further, tho agreement gave the president of (lie board power, if the land were not cut" up ami sold within three years, to cut it up and sell it by. public miction. In caso of any dispute arising, the matter was to be referred to the Supremo Court for adjudication. Tho agreement was dated April 11, 1011, signed by himself, and sealed with (lie commou seal of the Maori Land Board. Mr, Herries asked if tho agreement was an instrument of alienation? Mr. Dalziell: "Yes." Mr. Herries said lio was not asking Mr. Dalziell. Witness said the agreement was an instrument of alienation in terms of tho . Act. Ho had not signed any similar . agreement before, but there was nothing extraordinary about it. Tho agreement was submitted to the Solicitor-General for perusal. Mr. Herries: When Was tlio question of this agreement first mooted ?—After the confirmation. Mr. Herries: It seems an extraordinary thing. AVitness .said tho explanation was tliat tlio board was to hold tlio laud so as to ensure its being cut up into small holdings. This was the only ease in which lie had held land in trust. There was no communication with tho Department in regard to tho agreement except that it had been referred to tho Solicit or-Oen-cral. Hermann Lewis paid the purchase money nlxnit tlio middle of May. It was paid by Findlay and Dalziell's cheque. Mr. Herries: Why wns not; this instrument of alienation registered? Witness: Seeing that the transfer was subsequently registered, (hero was no necessity to register the agreement Tlio transfer was to Hermann Lewis. Aro you quite sure that there was a transfer from tho Maori Land Hoard to Hermann Lewis? Do you know if it: is registered ?—No. Do you remember signing it?—' Yes. It may iiave been to Mr. Lewis or it mny liavo been drawn in tho name of (ho company. I could not bo exactly definite on that point. Tho data of signing waa Maj IB on 19,

Jl.r. nprrieii: AVould you bo surprised to know that no such transfer to Hermann Lew-is had l>ecii registered? AVitness said he was sure that ho had signed tho transfer and collected tho money. A Transfer to Himself. To a further question witness said the transfer was to himself as trustee. Ho was sorry ho had made the mistake. He signed liio transfer to himself as president of tho Maori Land Board and held tlio land as trustee. The land was vested in him, in his private capacity, simply to ensuro that the limitation provisions of the Act should bo enforced. Mr. Herries: Did you'consult your Department as to whether you could tako up that position?—A'es. Witness replied to further questions that he had the correspondence with tho Department on the subject. Tho suggestion that he should tako up the position of trustee emanated from the board. lie understood that it had been submitted to Cabinet, and 'that Cabinet had decided that no objection existed. Asked whether any mortgago on the land had been executed, witness stated that there was a mortgage from himself to AV. kelson, Douglas M'Lcan, Mason Chambers, Bernard Chambers, Paid Hunter, R. M'Xab, and C. A, Loughnan. Ho thought that tiic mortgage was signed on the same date as tho transfer. He did not remember tlio amount of the mortgage. Mr. Herries: What was tho objcct of the mortgage? AVitness: 1 do not know, I was simply a trustee. _ I was nothing more nor less than tho instrument to execute these deeds. Who suggested tho mortgage?—lt was part of the arrangement entered into by the parties. He was only nominally trustee. He was simply thcro to seo that tho land was cut up in three years. Suppose it is not cut up?—l am thero to cut it up. You signed tho mortgage, and you did not know what the amount of money was, and you also signed another mortgage, to Mason Chambers, of another part of tho land? AVhat was the object ol' that?— 1 don't know. Do you know how much land was mortgaged to Messrs. Nelson, M'Lcan and tho others?— No. Did you reccivo any of tho mortgage money r—No. You mortgaged tho land in your pri. vats capacity as (rusteo for tho Natives? —Not as trustee for the Natives, but as trustee for the purchaser. Ho only held the land to see that the limilation'provisions were enforced. The, conditions slated that the land was to bo held by the Maori Land Board in trust?— That is quite incorrect. You, a Civil' Servant, held it in trust for tho purchases—for Hermann Lewis?— Yes. And in that capacity you executed a mortgage to Douglas M'Lcan, Mason Chambers, and the rest ol them, and did not tako enough interest in it to seo what tho amount of money was?— No. "What is Your Position?" And suppose that money is not paid, what is your position?—l am only a trustee. I could resign my trusteeship tomorrow. But you are tho registered owner of the land?— Under a deed of trust. But suppose tlio mortgages wcro foreclosed?—l could get out of it by resigning. Mr. Dalziell at this stage stated that tho whole of this procedure was set forth in the agreement. Air. Herries (to witness): In caso of tho mortgago being foreclosed; you say you could resign then?—l had legal advice. Mr. Herries: If tho mortgage was not met your equity redemption would 1)0 sold? Mr. Ngata: AYlio has that mortgage? AVitness said that Mr. Dalziell would probably produce tho document. Mr. Herries: You can get out of your trust by simply resigning. Then what guarantee is there that the land will bo cut up?—l do not say that I am going to get out of it. Mr. Ilerries: Suppose tho mortgagees oxcrciso their power to sell? AVitness stated that the power to sell was restricted. The title was caveated to ensuro that tlio land should bo cut up. Mr. Berries: Did you act under instructions from your Department in regard to buying tho laucl and mortgaging it? Witness: No; .1 got permission from tho Department to act as trustee. Mr. Herries: If the company docs not fulfil the conditions .in regard to cutting up, what is your position then? Witness said tho board had power to subdivido the land. Mr. Ilerries: Did you sign the cavcat on behalf of tho board ? AA'itncss understood that the caveat had been signed by Findlay, Dalziell, 1 and Company, on behalf of the board. Arc Findlay and Dalziell tho usual solicitors for tlio board?— No. AVitness further replied that this was ■ part of tho arrangement. He did not know of any other case in which tho board had caveated a title. The board's interests were protected by tho lodging of the caveat, 'i'ho caveat was registered on August 18, 1911. Mr. Ilerries: AA'hat was the object?—To ensuro that tlio land .would not be sold without—it protected first of a.ll the purchaser and then the boa.rd. . Otherwise there would havo been nothing to hinder my selling tho land, perhaps. Mr. Ilerries: Is thero nothing except this caveat to prevent you selling tho laud?—l don't know the strict legal position. The caveat at anyrato would prevent it. A'ou, as chairman of the board, could withdraw that caveat ?—AVell, Mr. Dalziell had belter put another caveat on. "It Saved Us Trouble." A'ou say that Findlay and Dalziell lodged the caveat, acting for the board. Why did you employ Findlay and Dalziell and not tlio usual solicitor? Why did you not lodge it yourself:—They had done everything m connection with the matter. It saved us trouble. Why was it delayed until August 18, if it is the only protection tliat the board hasf—'There was no immediate need for hurry. Any transfer required to be signed by myself. In your private capacity?— Yes, Who pays the rates and taxes on this land?—l don't know who pays them now. You arc the registered owner of- this land?—l discussed that matter with Mr. Dalziell, ; and lie undertook to seo that they were paid. Kir J nines Carroll: You hold the land as security in any ease?— Yes. Mr. Herries: But it is mortgaged, perhaps for a larger sum. Have you any recollection as to whether tlio mortgago was larger than the value to (ho owners, vested in you?— Quito possibly it is. I could not sav. ! Mr. Herries: Is this the largest transaction thai, lias taken place in your district so far as price and area are concerned ? —Yes. It presented a good many unusual fca« twos?— Yes. A'ou havo never had a transaction liko this before —No, Air. Dive: The land has to bo oceupicd within three years, but the board has power to extend the time. A'ou, as trustee, will, I suppose bo favourably disposed in regard to an extension of timoP AVitness: Why do you ask that? Mr. Dive: I think it is very probable. Had tho Natives any say in regard to tlio mortgaging of this land?—' Why should they? They havo ,C 2500 worth of shares in it? —I"don't see that they havo any interest except in (he company. Have they any rights in this company? —1 suppose they havo (ho ordinary rights of shareholders. A Question Disallowed, After some further reference to the interests of tho Natives, Mr. Divo asked: "Are you, or are you not, a very willing agent in reference to facilitating tho douKinds of this company? Sir James Carroll; lie should not bo asked that. Tho chairman ruled that witness need not reply to the question. To Air. Jennings witness stated that in the event of tho limitation clause in tlio agreement not lining carried out ho would recommend the board to cut up the land. Although ho had not actual knowledge of tho positioi, he understood that (he company had a idatf of surveyors on (he block at present. This agreement strengthened tho board in carrying out the lin.ilalioc provisions. The only thing (hat made liin; accept the position i«f trustee was a desire to see that, the limitation provisions wero carried ont. It was not unusual to come across dissentient owners in Native land transactions, 110 did not know the property himself, and had never been on it. Mr. Massey: Did 1 hear you say that Findlay, Dalziell, and Co. "ore the firm employed in connection with part of llieso proceedings? < .Witness: No. I eaid that Findlay nnd

Dalzicll acted for tho board in lodging tho caveat preventing registration of any further documents. Mr. Massey: Findlay .and Dalziell wero also solicitors' for tho purchasers?— Mr. Dalzicll was. I suppose that moans' tho firm ? —I don t ' know that it docs. Don't you think it a very extraordinary thing for a firm of solicitors to act for the purchasers and for ; tho .'vendors? —They, did not act in an advisory capacity to; us, but simply in connection with the registration of 011 c document. Who advised you to sign tho mortgage?, —1 was not advised on that point. At whose request did you sign it?—At the request of Mr. Dalzicll as solicitor to Mr. Lewis. Mr. Dalziell seems to havo taken a very prominent part in these transactions, advising tho board occasionally?--No. Well, advising yon, a;i trustee?— Only after tho board had finished its proceedings, ' - ■ The Minerals. Aro ; you aware that, under this agreement, Hho present owners of tho land havo'. tho right to retain tho minerals, whatever else takes place?— No. Would you be surprised to learn that? —I Would. Would you bo surprised to learn that tile present owners mean to retain tho minerals?—l don't/know anything about that. : My impression is that at tho present time I hold both minerals and Do you feel ine'incd to get legal-ad-vice on this point? The chairman intervened, and Mr. Massey did not press the question. Mr. : Massey remarked to the.chairman that, looking through the agreement, so far as ho could ascertain, it referred only to surface rights. The chairman (to Mr. Massey): Would vou buy tho property under tlicso conditions ?v Sir. Hemes: Order! Mr. -Massey: I am not under examina-. tion. Mr. -'Masscv {to witness): Mr. Dalzicll paid the fee "to the Maori Land Board of which you are president? Witness replied that'lie could not, say without reference to his" cash-book. He thought the fee was paid by Findlav and Dalziell, or by Chapman, Skerrett, Wylie, and Tripp. You said Mr. .Dalziell gave you infor-mation-in- regard' to l the- Order-in-Coun-cil. Did ho .Ml you how lie got that information ?—No. - _ Yon simply took his word for it?— Yes, subject to verification. » Do voir kn->w if there is any claim by Mr. Skerrett's firm on the sum of ten per cent, which you hold? —No. In regard to the .£2500,, worth of •shares transferred to the Natives, witness stated thai this amount represented 250 fully paid-up ,£lo'' shares. Mr. Massey: Do you-,know the valuo at which this land stands in the books of the company?— No. Don't you think that as representative of the Natives you are expected to look after their interests?—By searching ' tho company's-register? Mr. Mijssey: You should have ascertained tho amount •at which tho land stands in tho books of ~; the company. Did you inform, the Natives as to the difference, between 'the value .at which tliey sold—the price of the freehold of tho land—and the value, at which tho land stands in the books of the company who own it now? ; Witness'said ho had not examined the . books of the company. Mr. Massay: Don't you see tho bearing this lias,.on the value of the shares?— The <£25,000, in our view, was, an ade-. 1 quate consideration, apart from ,tho : shares. , The real valuo of tho shares was not ' considered?— No. , , To Sir Jas. Carroll, witness stated that tho board agreed to tho sale by tho Natives at a prico of .£25.000. . When : this sum. was paid, the interests of the Natives, as. owners of the land, disappeared, except that they retained £2500 worth of shares. Transactions subsequent to the purchaso affected land owned by Europeans. Evidence of Mr., E. H, Hardy.. j ; Ths next witness called,'was Edwin'- J Henry Hardy, authorised and!' , Bheepfarmer. Examined by' Mr. Massey,' he stated that in November, 1910, lie I . Was employed by one of : thoNativo' owners in the Mokau-Moliakatino blocks; to assist him in filing an application .for partition. Tho application .was thrown,; out. Afterwards he noted ithe' applica-, tion by Hermann Lewis, inthe Gazette! for the purchase of tho' block. After' tho\ first meeting of asseipblcd 'owners,; a ' number of Natives' called at Ills house and showed him a report by tho Native ! Land Commission, and- also 'showed' him ' an opinion by Mr. 8011. They were ! not quite satisfied that they were getting justice done to them. They 'wished : to retain their land, and asked him :to advise them. At a -meeting of tlio Natives, which ho attended in the even- ! ing, the whole thing was discussed. Ho agreed to como to Wellington and interview Mr. Bell. No committee had 'been , ' formed then, but with four or five Maoris ho approached Mr. Bell 'and asked his ; advice. The latter gavtj -a desultory ntatcment in regard to-the position, and said that if they wished, him to undertake the case, they must first find .£IOO. ■ He said he had not much faith in-'the report of tho two Judges. Afterwards they went over to tho Wellington' Hotel. ■ "Witness was asked to go outside for a few minutes. This ho did. On his being called in, the Natives said : -thcy had no money, and asked him to pay Mr. Bell Mu! *100. lie said this was a. bad .start,, but eventually agreed to-pav the -money' They returned to Mr. Bell's office, and witness laid .CoO'beforo him. Mr. Bell was very much asfoiiitJhed. He then proceeded to give instructions in' reference to tho case. He write a statement of the caso in a book, and asked witness Mo sign each sheet, which ho diet. BeH ordered that all accounts, etc., should be printed. 110- also said that at nine o clock in the morning all the writs etc., would be ready. In the afternoon witness paid over tho other ,CSO. At this stage witn&ss asfad whether ho : was to tell everything, and being in- - formed that he v/as lo state everything bavin? a bearing oh the inquiry, remarkccl that ho had bceu described in a newspaper as fool. Tho facts l were that after tho Natives had gone, io retnrned to Mi, Bell and told him that he had supplied t|ie Natives- with the money. Mr. Beli thereupon said: You are a bally fool, Hardy! They will never pay you. back. Witness informed Mr. Bell of tho proposal io sell to Hermann Lewis, and tliey camo to the conclusion that uheylshoufd oppose tho sale. The question of valuo ' or prico was never discussed with Mr. Bell, nor did any o£ the Natives -ever tell him that tliey wero not satisfied with the price. Mr. Bell said it'would bo necessary to found a fund of ;ESOO as the next step towards putting the matfpr into tho Supremo Court. Sir. Bell saitl "Don't ask mo for my advico as to how this money is to ba raised." To Mr. Massey: It was usual for a''legal arm to require a denosit under similar circumstances. In regard to Block Tf, a statement of claim was prepared against the Vsseo for not complying with tho covenants in his lease. Jn duo course, they held a meeting at Mokau, and a. committee was nppcinted to represent tho Natives. At tho meeting a sum of ,£SO was collected. Ho did not receive this money. It was agreed that .ho should have authority to dispose of any available lands by .sale or lea.se to raise funds. So far as ho know, thoso who attended the meeting at Mokau agreed to oppose the salo. „ A ri Hle ,£ o""'iittce0""'iittce adjourned tmnl 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday.