"HECKLED."

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1218, 29 August 1911, Page 6

"HECKLED."

SIR J. G, WARD AT THE CONFERENCE IMPERIAL COUNCIL SCHEME. STRIKING PASSAGES IN DEBATE. Tho English newspapers ito hand by yesterday's mail bring sumDiaries of, and extracts from, -tho ■Blub Book of the Imperial Conference, ■which was issued on July 14. Tho "Morning Post" has somo, interesting and entertaining extracts from tho full verbatim report of the debate on Sir J. G. "Ward's motion for the establishment of "an Imperial Council" of State. Wo were advised by cable that bur Primo Minister had been badly "heckled." Tho "heckling" really was very sharp and severe. As Sir Joseph Ward proceeded (savs tho "Morning Post" in its digest) ho sometimes called tho. Imperial body: ho proposed to have created a "Council," sometimes a "Parliament," sometimes a "Legislative. Body," and sometimes an "Advisory Council." This nebulousncss, if not inconsistency, in his proposals led to somo vigorous "heckling" on tho part of some members of the Conference, of •which the precis gave us no hint, but ■which nppeirs in tho" full report at great length. Here are a few passages:— Searching Questions. ■"Sir Joseph Ward: If wo could arrive at ft decision to adopt a per capita contribution from the respective countries tho outcome would be a British Navy so powerful that the world would stand at peaco probably for generations to come. Surely it is a matter worthy of tho greatest consideration on the part of a Conference such as this to bring about, if it is possible to do so, such a consummation? „ .. "Sir Wilfrid Laurie-: Will yon permit mo an .interruption here? "Sir Joseph Ward: Certainly. "Sir Wilfrid Laurier: Would this be m conjunction with your ■ Imperial ■ Council? ' "■■■..

"Sir Joseph Ward: Yes. "Sir Wilfrid Laurier: Are tho -two things not quite apart, and,could you not give contributions to-day.without having an Imperial Council? I do not see the Tclevancy of it to tho idea you aro expounding. ■ •» ■• "Sir Joseph Ward: I suggest that. tho Imperial Council is tho only way of providing that the voices of the different countries may bo heard through' their constitutionally-elected . representatives. Tho Imperial Council.is tho only'way, I will not say to go back upon the policy, of any of the Dominions,' but it is the only way in which, in my opinion, a uniform system of co-ordination ,and cooperation can ho achieved. That is my view. ■ . -

"Sir Wilfrid Laurier: But that is quite independent of tho policy ol contributions.

"Sir Joseph Ward: I. hope to show pre-, sontly exactly what my proposal is. "Mr. Batchelor: You wculd have legislative power? "Sir Joseph Ward: It would require legislative power to enable it to carry out its function?. ' "The President: That .is very importnut. Is it proposed that this Council should have legislative powcis? . "Sir Joseph Ward: I intend to explain presently what I think'it should have. "The President: Mr. - Batchelor asked the question, and I understood you to say yes. "Sir Joseph Ward: Yes, I proposo that it should be created by legislation. "The President: Created by legislation, yes; but to have legislative power is a different thing. "Sir Joseph Ward: And that its powers should be defined by legislation. "Mr. Fisher: I understand yon to say that" it would have legislative powers, as a constitutional 'body. "Sir Joseph AVard: Perhaps it would be more convenient if you would wait until I explain what it is I suggest should bo done." "What Do You Call It?" Sir! Joseph Ward had not gone very much further in the elaboration of his argument before Sir Wilfrid .Laurier again intervened: "Sir Wilfrid Laurier: TheTe is a difference between a Council and a Parliament. What do you propose, a Parliament or a Council? I want a proper definition of .what yo'u mean, because you havo proposed neither so far. "Sir Joseph Ward: I prefer to call it /a Parliament of Defence. "Sir Wilfrid Laurier: Very well. ' "The President: That is a very different . proposition to the on"o in your resolution. Your resolution is 'An Imperial Council of State'—nothing about defenco —'advisory to tho Imperial Government.' Il is limited, as I understand the resolution, to giving advice. "Sir Wilfrid Laurier: When it is started it is to.be a Parliament; who is going to elect that Parliament? "Sir Joseph Ward: I will presently explain it. ' . "The President: All I say is that that is not the resolution in any of those particulars.

"Sir. Joseph Ward: I would point out that, the resolution is 'with representatives from all tho self-governing parts of the Empire.' Sir Wilfrid Laurier: But you say 'Council.' Is it a Council or is it a Parliament? It is important we should know exactly what is the proposal. Sir Joseph Ward: I prefer to call it' a Parliament'. ■: Sir Wilfrid Laurier: .Very good, then; now we understand what you mean. "Sir Joseph Ward: I prefer to call it a Parliament, although I admit there is a good deal in the name. "Sir Wilfrid Laurier: There is every- , thing in the name. "Mr. Fisher: Would it not be as well to amend your resolution on those lines? "Sir Joseph Ward: No, I do not propose to amend it; if it is necessary afterwards I should have no objection; "Sir Wilfrid Laurier: You propose a Council in your resolution, hut you advocate a Parliament. Sir Joseph Ward: You can call it a Council if you like. "The President: AVo want to know what /on call it." Mr. Asquith Cannot Understand. The next to interveno a littlo later w-a.5 the President (Mr. Asquith), who practically confessed his inability to understand either tho proposal or tho argument with which Sir Joseph Ward endeavoured to support it. "The President: I should like, if I may, tn ask you this question. Ynu say this proposed body is to have a voice— I suppeso yon mean a decisive voicein the question of peace or war. How is that to be. worked out practically? Are wo to have a debate on tho question of whether or-not the Empire shall go to war, at which everybody is to speak, with a division, and so on—3oo members? ..... "Sir Joseph Ward: I havo not suggesti ed anything of that sort. "The President: ;That is your suggestion—the only suggestion before, tho Conference. "Sir Joseph Ward: I havo not suggested anything of tlie kind, with all duo deference. "The President: Then I do hot understand it." After this it is' not surprising to learn that Mr. Asquith condemned the proposal root and branch, and in very emphatic terms. He condemned it from tlje point of view both of tho Dominions themselves and of the Imperial Govern-" mail in these words: "So far as the Dominions aro concerned, this new machine could impose upon the Dominions by the voice of a body in which they would be in a standing minority (that is part of the _ case), in a small minority indeed, a policy of which they might all disapprove, of which somo of them at any rate possibly and prcbnblv would disapprove, a policy which would in most cases involvo expenditure and an expenditure which would have to bo met by the imposition on a dissentient community of taxation by its own Government. We cannot, with tho traditions and the history of tho British Empire behind us. cither from the point of view of the United Kingdom, or from the point of view of our self-governing Dominions, assent for a moment to proposals which are'so fatal to the very fundamental conditions on which our Empire has been built up and carried on." After further discussion Sir Joseph Ward said: "In view of tho expression of

opinion of tho members of tho Conference against the resolution, I ask that it bo withdrawn," whereupon Mr. Asquith remarked: "1 think that is the much better course," and the motion was accordingly withdrawn.

Tho full report (the "Horning Post" says) shows inuch more clearly than the previously published precis that the exclusion of the press was primarily duo to tile counsel and influence of Sir Wilfrid Laurior, backed up by Air. Asquith. Sir Joseph Ward had sulfcred so much In the 130" Conference from the policy of suppression that "his existence was not known," to quoto his own words, '.'for somo time alter the commencement of that Conference," that ho determined to niovo for an open Conference on this occasion. It did not appear that tho Canadian representatives' existence was unknown to their constituents, but that may be presumed to be explained by tho fact, according to Sir Wilfrid Laurior, "there lvero enterprising journalist.?, newspaper men, who undertook to get what information they could and send it to their respective Dominions." Sir Wilfrid Lmirier sc?med to think "that rule worked very well," but Sir Joseph Ward did not agree with .him, ami proposed that "the Conference bo open to the press, except when tho subjects arc confidential."

AN EARLY VISION. ■It may interest the public to recall that our contributor "M.C.K," in an article printed in these columns on May 29 last, tho Monday following the debate quoted from above, gave his vision ot the proceedings, which at that time of course had hot been mado public in any detail. It appears to have been a fairlv accurate vision, almost prophetic in fact. It was this:—

Sir J. G. Ward (loudly): Eureka! Iho others (coidly): Proceed. bir J. 6. Ward (warmly): In order to secure that consolidation necessary to draw tighter tho bonds of Empire and promote, as I have said, that better development of our heritage, and I say so without hesitation, then if wc are to do so it is necessary that wc have a due regard to the necessities, and I am sure we are all agreed that the time is critical and tho burden of Empire great. Briefly, I propose a Parliament of 300 'members, with representatives from everywhere, to carry out tho policy. .Mr. Asquith.(icily): I am not sure ' Sir J. G. Ward (hotly): Let mo recall to you. closer-union, tho great growth of tho navy, tho complexity of things in general, .the. wetness and depth of the sundering .ocean, the .entire "absence of adequate means of foothold in the atmosphere, and tho.difficulty of constructing pneumatic .. tubes on a comprehensive scale between Birmingham and Dannevirke,. between Pretoria and Skagway Let me recall

: Mr. Asquith (freezingly): One moment. When did theso awful things happen? I •have.no official advieo of them. Sir J. G. .Ward (passionately): I have just said that there will bo 298 representatives, and the. policy of consolidation, for which I ask a trial Sir Wilfrid Laurier. (malevolently); Pardon mv interrupting. But liow? Sir J. G. Ward "(with emotion): The system works splendidly in New Zealand. The Empire, I repeat, must be riveted together. Of course, iron or even brass rivets will he useless, the Empire not being a.destructor boiler, tmt legislative rivets • , . ■ Mr. Fisher (frigidly): May I speak? This will mean a written constitution, which is unnecessary and dangerous. Sir J. G. Ward (ardently): Pardon me, it will not. But if so, so much the better. And I therefore move my motion, tho fruit •of many years of prolonged thought, tho necessary means of securing that consolidation of tho heritage that is now tottering on the verge. I mova Mr. Asquith' (firmly): I am against. Do you favour the motion, gentlemen? Mr. Fi=her (pusillanimous!}-): No. Sir Wilfrid Laurier (meanly): No. General Botha (nastily): No. Mr. Asquith (joyfully): Motion'lost.