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PARLIAMENT.

—. THE HOUSE. CIVIL SERVICE REFORM. MR. HERDMAN'S BILL. DISCUSSION ON INTRODUCTION. In tho House of Representatives yesterday afternoon, Mr. A. L. HKRDMAN (Wellington North), in moving to introduce tho Civil Service Reform Bill, took the oppor< tuuity of speaking on the measure. Ho remarked that as possibly the Standing Orders of the 'House might prevent him explaining tho. measure later, he would take the opportunity of doing so then. Some misconception had arisen as to tho provisions of the Bill. Various statements had been made by Government members regarding t'he Public Service. Board which the speaker had suggested last session and the session before. AL Christchurch tho Acting-Prinio Minister (Sir James Carroll) had said that the board proposed would not bo responsible to the people or to Parliament. When tho hon. β-entfcman mado that statement ho showed quite clearly that cithor ho did not understand the Bill which had been before tho House, or that ho had misrepresented it. Mr. Hcrdman said ho could justify the attitude ho took up on quite a number of grounds. In these modern times tho management' of largo bodies of civil fervants and public servants was gradually becoming a science. New Zealand was behind the times so far us management of public servants was concerned, "Considerable Amount of Discontent." Hon. members would know that notices of motion wens continually being brought before the House, dealing with the conditions and stains of civil servants. These notices of motion indicated very clearly that a considerable amount of. discoufrnt existed in the various brandies of tho Civil Service. There must have been, •10 or 50 notices of motion dealing with railway (■ervnuts alone before tho House that session. Throughout tho country, from tho North Capo to tho Bluff, discontent was rile in the public service at the present time. This discontent was justified by the mismanagement that existed. Tho management: should be taken out of the hands of the Ministers and placed in the hands of an expert board, lie was quite prepared to admit that he could dot lay u perfect schemo before tho House, but he was confident that, beyond all question, the. scheme which had been adopted in Australia of placing the control-of public servants in the'hands of a commissioner, or in the hands of two or three coininissio.:icrs, was infinitely better than the existing order of things. No political section iu any State of Australia at the present time was prepared to go back to management by Ministers of the Crown. Individuals might bo dissatisfied, but no large body of public, opinion was prepared to go "back fo' the old order of things.

Parliamentary Control. Explaining the provisions of the Bill. Mr. tterdinon stated that ho proposed that there should bo a board, consisting of a Chief Commissioner and two assistant commissioners, appointed by the GOv-ernor-iu-Couucil. This board should regulate, appointments, fix salaries, and regulate promotions. The commissioners should ba resjioMble to Parliament; a-.ul uot cut away from Parliamentary control, as Sir James Carroll had suggested that, they would be. Tho commissioners and assistants should bo directly responsible to Parliament β-ntl to nobody olse. Tho principle of the Bill was similar to that under which a Judgo was placed in an independent position. . The English Act of Settlement, passed in 1700, provided that Judges should be appointed during good behaviour,' their salaries wero fixed, and they could be removed only by a vote of both Houses of Parliament. The effect of this provision had unquestionably been to make- the administration of justice in Britain bettor than in any other country in tho world. Sir Charles Lucas, one of tho most eminent public servants that Great Britain had ever possessed in modern times, h«d stated, regarding Australia, that there was notliini; more admirable in Australiathaii the efforts m ado to keep tho permanent officials outside the scope of political influence. That was the observation of a man of wide experience, high character, and great sagacity. ; Refuting tho Acting-Premier, Section 6 of the Bill provided that nny person who. sought to obtain'assistance from a member of Poriinmcnt in obtaining employment in the public service should bo disqualified for such employment, and that any person seeking promotion or other advantage by similar means should Iμ dismissed. Tho Bill provided that tho .Chief Commissioner ar.d tho two . assistant commis-sioners-should be appointed from outside the ranks of the Public Service. Section S completely refuted the statement of the Acting-Prime Minister that the beard would 1)B fro? from Parliamentary control. Brielly it provided that tho Gov-ohior-in-Council might, if he wiis dissatisfied with, the conduct of the Chief Commissioner, remove him from oflice. If, however, Parliament, within 21 days after it sat, did not approve the suspension, the Chief Commissioner -remained in office. It was clear Hint the Chief Commissioner was responsible to Parliament, owl not to a Minister of the Crown. That was the groat fundamental principle of tho Bill. It was the most democratic measure that could possibly be intrcducc-d. Thb Dearth of Information. The Hon. T. Mackenzies "How much would Parliament know, about it?" Mr. Herdman: "It would know a great deal more about it than, it knows now. Wo know nothing. We get no iuformiition. If some lion, gentleuieu would only, take an interest in this subject aixl compare (he Commonwealth returns with tho state of things in this country, thoy would not be in two minds about the course that ought to 1» followed." Whatever might be advanced iu the shape iif objections to this measure, tho two real objections in tho minds of the Ac«iufrPiemier and hi? party were:—(l) That it would remove- Civil Servants from'political inllueiico; and (2) that it was submitted to fhc House by a member ivho happened to belong to the Opposition. Subject to the control of P.irliaiiKint, Mr. Herdman continued, the Chief Commissioner would have complete power.. •\t the present time there was a provailing discontent in the Public Service that must bo rootod in injustice. If the Xiill were passed-Civil Servants would Ret justice, and' bo controlled by better ninfters. The public, on their part, would get better 'service. He was absolutely satisfied that, while there were men of conspicuous talent in the Public Service, th?re were others.who .should nev<r have been employed, and some who had b(«n promoted and should not have been. Hβ desired that the son of a poor, man should, have the same, right, as tho eon of a rich man. A motwlmr: "Po thov hnve now." Mr. Herdman rejoined 'hat - , at all event-s a man in the Public Serrc? who could-win political iiitlucnc wns in an infinitely lW.lov pnsitkn than the man who could not. Tf it were a quotum of the *-n of f-V h"n nr>mN?r fnr Avon, or his (Mr. n>r.*mon'<l '■•■" p-t'Mi- info thn Public Sni-vie-. uiiil"ubtodly th» s-n of the nwinboi- hr Avon wriiM, M i»... Mr. Tinfoil-. Tf m- ,-„ .-' ■•- : l wnnld l)i> liprniim he hnd more brains. ' Mr. lTer.lm.tn: T lriv Mi t «n»« dny we may have n contest of that •■oscrinrlon. A Demerrifir Mrjn.ire, Tho I'ill wt'iihi !<-avi< tin' con'rol nf onoh IX-parti.ifn-: tn ihi* head M thai D'lMi-t-------inrnl, bin vv , :- ,, !) a'ni'fl • .'iicei , iv.n. ri^inil •-•! mi m.in u.iil.l 1" -iinK-ii'ied fvept on • -i cwtinVnl:' u! ilif t"iiwm\--|. ii-r. and- Hnlironioli'.ni «1' o!l;.vi> -in--! ipv'*" i'i their >al:iii--s »vt,.»!.,i hi lib I'.tn-..-- I ;'iHill also ih.'l the Vlida>s ,i- m lr.(. Commoinvfalt.il Bill. This wavll.i iii..-t democratic measure ever siilitiiiltitl Id t-lie House bfmii.se it gave the control to Parliament instead of to the Jlinis'era of the Crown, and this was everywhere tho tendency of democracy. He seriously commended" this measure to the House. He did not expect to convince tho other side, but ho wanted ' to make clear to people outside Parliament the provisions 'if tho Bill, and ho hoped to compel them to come to the conclusion that we must

have, an up-to-date Civil Service system, in line with Governments like ths> Commonwealth and other Australian Governments, tho United States Federal Government, and other Governments which .desired to get an efficient staff and eradicate political influence. When the public really understood tho matter, they would insist that it should be seriously taken ■up, and a law placed on the Statute-book, providing that tho large army of.publio servants should bo appointedand controlled by a competent and proper authority. MR. HANAN'S VIEWS, SYSTEM OF PERIODICAL TESTS • ADVOCATED. Mr. J. A. HANAN (Invercargill) objected to the action of Mr. Herdman in. discussing the Bill at the present stage, ami suggested that the Standing Orders should be amended to prevent such a thing. Mr. Herdman would lead the House to believe that the operations of the Civil Service Board in Australia were giving'satisfaction, but the fact was that the service there was seething with ■ discontent. He (Mr. Hanan) read an extract from the "Public Service Journal" of Australia to show that, in the opinion of the editor, political appointments still occurred. The Melbourne "Ago" had nlso ; given instances, of political patronage in the' State Civil Service, in spite of the board. To put the proposed power into the hands of a few officials must lead to abuses, and the system proposed by Mr. Hordinan would bo no improvement on the present one. From his own inquiries in Australia, he was sure that' all aDpointments were not properly made. He advocated a system of periodical Departmental t«sts, as already .in force in the Post and Telegraph Department. If wo were to hare a true democracy, we must not have a bureaucracy with official rule. It was even now said that Ministers were too much influenced by Departmental heads; but what would it be like under the system proposed? Ho understood that Mr. Massey did not approve of Railway Commissioners, but the principle was tho same. To establish these Commissioners would be a violation of democracy. Mr. R. B. ROSS (Pahiatua) read tho speech made by Mr. Poland last year, contending that the establishment of a board would not eliminate political influence, and said it was doubtful whether the innovation would enable any economy to ba effected. ' MR. MASSEY'S SPEECH.

THE LATE MR. .SEDDON QUOTED. Mr. -VF. F. MASSEY, Leader .of the Opposition, repelled the. suggestion of Mr. Hanan that the Standing Orders should be amended to prevent speeches on the first reading of a Bill. If. things went on' as they had been going the rights ; of private raembrrs would disappear, and _ they may as well stay nt home and leave , Ministers to do the business of tho 'country. It was well known that the Melbourne "Age," which had been quoted, was persistently and regularly adverse to the Public Service Board system, but the reason he did not know. A Bill similar to the present one was introduced by a, private member in 1883, when there was a truly Liberal Government an power, and the Bill was allowed to go [to a second reading. The member who 'introduced that Bill was the late Mr. 1 Seddon.

The Hon. Mr. Duncan: If he believed 'it was right, he would have introduced it when he was in power. Mr. Masscy: "That is passing a reflection on- the lato ' Jlr. Seddon—(Ministerialists: "Oh, oh!")—which is a thing I never /do. I believe that if the lato Mr. Sed- ; don had not. thought in 1883 that the Bill was right, he would not have introduced it, and 1 believe ho thought it was right until tho' end of his career, but .} circumstances arose which - caused ■ him inot to introduce it again." Tho {unction >of tho Railway Commissioners was t'o imanago the railways, a very different matHer.. from' controlling appointments and (promotions. It was not any moro necessary to have the railways managed by .■commissioners than to have the Post OfIfice so managed. Ho quoted the opinion of. Mr. Waddell, formerly Minister for Railways-and Treasurer in New-South: Wales, that non-political control was a heuccess, and there was no proposal to ijibolish it. -.The president of the Trades (■and • Labour"'Council in Auckland -had imentioned in a. speech that Dr. Jl'Arthitr, 18.M., the Hon. W-. Beethan, M.L.C., Mr. ■Harle Giles, Conciliation Commissioner, i.ind others-had been, when appointed, members of the Liberal and Labour Federation. The inference waa clearly that It bat was why they were appointed. He {(Mir. Massey) had nothing to say against (those gentlemen. He hoped and belioved ■that' the time was not far distant when *uch a proposal as that of tho Bill would ibecome law.

MINISTERIAL SUPPORTERS. SPEECHES AGAINST THE BILL. Mr. W. .T. JENNINGS-(Taumarunui) ifiaid that the late Mr. fieddon wag in his ealad days of political life when ho .'brought in the Bill cited by Mr. Masse.v. 'Ho (Mr.'Jennings).would oppose the-Bill, Ibecause he thought the House should not jsurrender any of its rights to any com.mission or. /irresponsibh? officials. -.Had the Racing Commission been satisfactory? , Democrats everywhere were watching with grave apprehension the growth of tho ipower of officialism. At a dinner given by heath of thp Civil Service in Wellington a few years ago, Ministers being present, •one of the speakers said it was a mere .fiction to say thai the people's representatives governed the State, for it was rreally governed by the permanent offiThe Hon. T. Y. DtfNCAN (Oamani), in opposing tho Bill, spoke in praise of tho present system and the service. iToo Many Masters, ' Mr. D. M'LAREN (Wellington East) combated the statement of Mr. Herdman (that his proposal wns a democratic one. Jfe (Mr. Jl'Laren) had never heard of any Labour body appealing for the establishment of a Public • ServiceBoard on the lines advocated hy the member for Wellington North, as a Tnatter of fact, the people the hon. centleman pretended that ho wanted to help were opposed to -his proposals. (Ministerial "hear, hear.") The workih", people did not want more masters. They realised that they, had had masters and too raaii.y of them for too lons. Hp could not see anything but a sham and pretence of reform in exchanging, one boss for another. Tho Hon. T. Mackenzie: "An additional boss. Mr. M'Laren: "Yes. n Pooh-Bah, a sort of Japanese over-lord." Ho advocated statutory definition of working hours. Finest in the World. ~J lr - A. W. HOGG (Masterton) credited the hon. .member for Wellington North with an honest desire to improve the k IV i i if v:c3 V, but rerain( led him that it -hod-been the boast of members on both sides oi the House that New Zealand lad thp finest Civil Service in the world. Ho conceded that wherever a large body of men was gathered together discontent was bound to arise. This was only natural. It arose from ambition and other ever-present causes. Personally, he had failed to discover anything seriously wrong ,with the Civil Service. \t th° present time the cream of the population was entering the public service. The establishment of the board would open the way for all sorts of blunders, and thexo would bo less satisfaction with the Civil Service than at tbi; present time. No good reason for the radical alteration proposed had been advanced. A Distinct Reaction. Mr. G. LADRENSON (Lyttelton) said the debate was warranted by its importance. Some 20,000 men and women were employed an the railway, post office, and other State services. The member for Wellington North and bis friends had in-dust:-;cMsly circulated statements that corruption and nepotism obtained from one end of New Zealand to the other. Upon examination these accusations would dissolve- into thin air. The result of setting up a board that would be as independent as judges now were would be that appointments would be conferred only on people who were in immediate touch with members of the board. A member had remarked that he (Mr. Laurcnson) had at ono time introduced a Public_ Service Jiill. He admitted that in his callow political days he had done so. Tie had seen more of the working of politics and of tho public service since then. Ho now considered that to establish a Public Ser-vice-Board would be a distinct reaction. Th« Bill proposed to s-jt up a hoard that would be absolutely independent of Par-

liament, and would centralise all appointments in Wellington. If the Hill wore passed it would introduce a worse system than that in vogue. Mr. .11. G. DLL (Chrisfchurcli South) said it. was quite true that there was a certain amount of discontent in the public service. He supposed there always would be. It wns beyond human ingenuity to silence this discontent altogether. l!e----ferring. to the Public Service in New South Wales, Mr. Kll declared that l?«.s regard had been paid in (hat State under a board to the. interests of the men who did the rougher work than had been paid them in this country under Ministerial control. He saw no justification lor the Bill. The Public Service was strong, efficient, find well managed. Mr. Herdman rose to reply at 5.21) p.m., but the Hon. T. Mackenzie also rose and began 'to speak. Before he had completed a sentence the Speaker interposed for the adjournment. FIRST READINGS. The following Bills were read a first time: Wangaiuii River Bridge Bill (Mr: Hogan); Mount Hutt County Bill (Mr. Hardy). TOWN-PLANNING. MOEE DISCUSSION OF THE BILL. Mr. G. \V. FORBES (Hurunui), resuming the debate on the second reading of the Town Planning Bill, said Hie Opposition did not seem to be very enthusiastic about the Bill, but perhaps some of them would yet make syseches that would shoiv that the plank dill not get into their plat, form by accident. It was no wonder that the Opposition did not seem to care about .the measure, because it meant restraints upon wealth. Mr. Allen: There's nothing of the sort in the Bill. . Mr. Forbes said that was the principle that ran through the Bill. _ Hon. G. Fowlds: Quite right. Mr. Forbes said the local bodies had now very great powers, which they had not used, and perhaps if a clause were added to enable the people to. requisition a town-planning scheme, that would supplv the uecessary stimulus. Uhe general Government might engage expert advisers in town-planning. Mr \. K. ULOVEII {Auckland Central) congratulated the member, for Auckland East upon having initiated the activity represented by the Bill. He supported the Bill, but considered there need be no hurry in passing it. It should first of a|l be circulated among the local authorities affected. Mr H G. EI.T, (Clmstchurch South) urged that the existing powers of lecal authorities should 'be widened. At present tho local authorities were not in a position to exercise control over owners cutting up blocks of city lands. I here was no power to. compel owners, when cutting up land in cities, to set aside school sites and other necessary reserves It had been said that the Bill involved too great an interference with local government, but some over-ndmg authority was necessary. The people had been hungering and thirsting for such powers j as were provided in this Bill. It should bo passed that session. Parliament and Local Bodies. Mr. J. A. HANAN (Invercargill) said it was to some extent because of the apathy shown by the municipalities of Auckland, Wellington, and Christchnrch, and their indifference to public interests in dealing with the evils of overcrowding, that this Bill had been introduced. It was the duty of Parliament to bring power to bear on local bodies if they failed to carry out their duties. If a Local Government Bill were put through the Bill before tho House would bear the relation of a supplement to it. He endorsed tho suggestion of the member for Wellington East that power might bo given to the people to initiate a echemo by a referenda vote. Ho was as loth as anyone to interfere with local control, but, because he believed that there must be at times a' stimulating interest, he would support ths Bill. Mr. T. H. DAYEY (Christchurch East) contended that the municipalities., had. not been by any means so neglectful- as Mr. Hanan had. indicated. Ho (Mr. Davey) objected to too mnch centralisation. Under the Bill .the local authorities would bo practically ignore<T.''lt;.\vas''n.io<t' unfair that Cabinet should hate power to say what the local bodies should do or should not do, that it should have power to reject a scheme upon which a local body had determined. He hoped that some, town-plannins scheme would ba placed on the Statute Book, but he would make every effort in Committee to ensure that local bodies should not be undnly interffTed with, and to secure that when tho people of a locality determined to do something no Order-in-Council should bo able to prevent them doing it. The Centralisation Idea. Mr. J. GRAHAM" (Nelson) said that like other members of the House, ho disagreed entirely with the centralisation idea, that the Governor-in>-Council should have power to veto any improvement proposals adopted by a local body; The Ministers had plenty of work to do in looking over tho general affairs of the Dominion without taking over control of affairs which now lav within the province of the local bodies. Ho dissented also from the proposal that burdens should be , imposed on districts without a poll of ratepayers being taken to authorise the expenditure or otherwise. No taxation should .be placed upon tho people without their consent. Mr. G. LAURENSON" (LyttcJton) said this measure had not como before its lime. To an extent ho agreed that a town should not go in for land speculating, but sometimes it was totter that laud should be cut up by a local authority than by a private individual. Mr. Davcy had expressed some fear of the Governor-in-Couucil. but he (Mr. Laurenson) was more afraid of the parish pump man than of the GovernoT-in-Council. Mr. Laurcnson said he did not yet despair of seeing the centre of Government, removed from Wellington. Under this Bill a new capital site might be- found in the AVairarapa, in the neighbourhood of Palmerston North or in tho neighbourhood of Wellington.

Mr. Ci- W. WITTY (I? icca-rton) opined that thtt local body should have far more power than was given in this Bill. The Governor-in-Council should not have power to Tcvcke a soh-eme approved by a. local body. The operative clause of the Bill should be made mandatory instead of permissive. HON. G. FOWLDS IN REPLY. THE GOVERNOR-IN-COCNCIL. Tho Hon. G. FOWLDS, in reply, said there had been a long and fruitful discussion on. tho Bill. No better proof could be had of its popularity than its adoption j -as pnrt of the great constructive policy of the Reform party. As he had anticipated would happen a good deal of life service had been paid at anyrate to the title of the Bill. The Minister professed himself amused at the, flaunting of democracy by the "Tory Democrats," and he was sorry that they had been supported by one or two "Liberal Conservatives" on his (the Minister's) side of the House. There had been a good deal of talk about the Gover-nor-in-Council. What was the Governor-in-Council ? A member: "A Ministerial despot." llr. Fowlds said the Ministers of the Crown could not hold their position save by the will of and representatives of the people assembled in Parliament. This was a thoroughly democratic foundation. The Govenior-in-Councii never dealt with an Order-in-Council in this country until it had been dealt with by a Minister, and recommended for adopton or action as the case might be. The position was that in every country you must have some authority to give legal sanction to various administrative acts, The member for Avon had asked whether it was "trusting the people" to give thn Governor-in-Council power to veto <i scheme adopted by a local body. Mr. Russell: "And approved by tho board." Trusting the People. Mr. Powlds said he was prepared to trust the people unreservedly. New Zealand was thirty or forty years behind the Old Country in the matte* of voting on loan proposals. He was prepared to trust the people, whose lives were endangered by the slum conditions in which they existed, but, if they waited until ratepayers sanctioned schemes of town improvement, then slum conditions would continue to exist. Mr. Fowlds defended the centralisation provision? of I he Bill on t'no ground that town-planning schemes would continually go beyond the area of any particular local body. Some means must be provided of making Hitisfacfcnry arrangements on such occasions. lHe believed that ultimately the Govern-

ment should provide the services <" -in expert in jown-plnniiing. a iiroper position for this tunetioiun v would l>.i upon Hie board. The power ni vetoing (i. scheme was on sill fours with I"' , existing provision For revoking mi Onlrr-in-Coinicil. The latter Imil boon iouud ncce.-.-nr.v for tho protection of I lie local bodies tnciiisolvrs. It was quite useless to talk about what might hn limiu by Ordcr-in-Council. Tin; work d'.inc \vii.< well considered, im<l » |iliiu would be only revoked if it was. shown that the interest of some, individual or local body had not been duly «i If guarded. It was an undoubted fact that the local authorities had nol up to tli , present exercised the powers vested in them tn secure the orderly cutting up of land. Neither had they exerted their powers in the removal of slums. The very passage of this Bill would bo a stimulus to local bodies, lie had no objection to the application of ':nvn planning principles to tho case of future Bills. The second reading was carried on the voices, and the House adjourned at 10.35 p.m.

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Bibliographic details

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1203, 11 August 1911, Page 6

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4,268

PARLIAMENT. Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1203, 11 August 1911, Page 6

PARLIAMENT. Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1203, 11 August 1911, Page 6

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