THE DISCUSSION.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1201, 9 August 1911, Page 6

THE DISCUSSION.

ACTING-PREMIER'S MOTION, AND MR. MASSEY'S OMECTION. The Acting-Prime Minister then moved: —"That tho papers lie on the table and bo printed, and be referred to Iho Native Affairs Committee." .lie presumed that tho leader of the Opposition was just as anxious as the Government to elicit all the fncts-Qfr. Massey: Hoar hear)—and ho (the Aetiiig-Pritno Minister) thought tho Native Affairs Committee was very well qtinliliccl for the work. Mr. Massey said ho would prefer a special committee, as tho Native Affairs Committee consisted of nine Government supporters and fc-ur Opposition members, oue of whom was away.

The Acting-Prime Minister snid the .members Pi -the. coajyttca Jui been

selected for their knowledge of Native Affair.?, without regard to party. He wanted lo raise this question above party altogether. He thought that when tho committee's inquiry was concluded there would be- no dilfcroneo of opinion between tho Leader of tho Opposition and himself. Mr. Massey then moved to set up a special committee consisting of Me?srs. Allen, Hordes, Herdimn, Okey, Jennings, Millar, Macdonald, Ngata, Hogg, and Jlnssey. He thought that would be a, fair committee for the purpose. He quite, agreed that the question of party should not enter into the matter.

Tho Hon. T. Mackenzie: Yon havo raised it.

Mr. Massey denied this, and pointed out that the committee proposed by him contained five members of each : party, and there was not a single one of them to whom exception could be taken. Tho Acting-Prime Minister said he did not see that the committee proposed by Mr. Massay would be any improvement on the Native Affairs Committee. -The House had had experience of a special committee very lately. Mr. Fisher: Was it not satisfactory? The Acting-Prime Minister said * the matter could be calmly and properly investigated by the Native Affairs Committee. MR. MASSEY'S SPEECH. HE MOVES AN AMENDMENT. Mr. Massey said that he was satisfied to find tnat not a. singie important slate, nient made by him Had been challenged. He did not accept any Press Association report, because they were not usually loir or accurate. He then read an interview given by him to the Auckland "Herald," July 26 (also in. The Dominion), in which he gave a history of tho Alokau transactions. Mid-way through his reading of the Auckland interview, Mr. Massey paused to say: "Now, I ask the hon. gentleman, (the Acting-Premier), as I go oil, to contradict any statement that is incorrect here."

The Acting-Prime Minister did not reply.

As Mr. Massey concluded his reading, Mr. Davey asked him to repeat the statement that he had attributed to the Committee.

Mr. Massey read, as the recommendation of the Parliamentary Committee, "that the settlement of the petitioner's claim should receive favourable consideration."

Mr. Davey: "Wo did not say that." Mr. Davey added that what tho Committee had actually recommended was that the petitioner's claim to equitable consideration should be clearly defined. Mr. Massoy went on to state that he had-no caso for Mr. Joshua 'Jones.- Ho agreed with the Acting-Prime Minister that Mr. Jones had no legal claim, but considered that he'had a moral claim to compensation. However, this was not his business, and vras not his point. The hon. gentleman (the Acting-Prime Mincster) had mado a very strong point of the danger to the Assurance Fund. What was this fund? It was ono contributed py people who bought and sold land all over New Zealand. The Government held it in trust for the. 'people concerned. . If a well-based claim were made against this fund it was the duty of tho Government to meet the claim. It did not follow that whsn a claimant came along to a=k for a ridiculous sum that ho .was to bo paid all that ho asked- for. The hon gentleman would admit that the Native owners were vri llin s to sell to the Crown, Hi £°\ f en %™ an would also admit it la V? e , had pald a deposit on behalf of tne ntate.

The Acting-Prime Minister: "No." Mr. Massey said that at all events the hon. gentleman would admit that tlw were willing to sell. • „ Master: "There was no deposit, but there was an advance irrespective of whether they sold or not."

"Nothing Complicated About That."

Mr. Massey directed the attention of the Actmg-Pnme Minister to Section 375 ot the Native Land Act, of 1909, which, he said, provided means whereby the holders of leases of Native lauds taken by tho Government could. claim compensation, and have it assessed as under the Public Works Act. There was nothing complicated about thnt. It was clear that the Natives had been willing to 6ell to tho Crown. . i : The Acting-Prime'Minister: They wank ert .£22,500. Wo could not pay more than ■£35,000 for the lot.. ■ •

'in' i. a nf, ey sald . ho wa ' s not speaking pt Uiat. ihe hon. gentleman was indulging in a little dust-throwing. I The Acting-Prime Minister: Oh, no! Mr. Massoy said that the Natives had been willing to sell, and that an advance had been paid to them on the purchase money. Thou the leasehold interests came in. Personally, he did not for one moment admit that theso interests, were' of any value, or that the interest of Mr. H. Lewis was of any value. The duty of tho Government had been to set up a Compensatipn Court under tho Native Land Act. ; The Acting-Prime Minister: "No dispute . about that."

■ Mr. Ma-ssey went on to remark that this Court should have determined the amounts to bo paid to' the people who owned tho leasehold interests.

: The Acting-Prinio Minister: Suppose it had come to more than the whole interest was worth?

. Mr. Massey insisted that it had been, the duty of the Government to act as he had indicated. . . Mr. Davoy.; Aren't. you worried raoro about the amount Mr. Lewis received than the amount ho paid? . ' A' Now Point.'l Mr. Massey' remarked that the fact that tho titles wero vested in tho Maori Land Board suggested a new point, that the local bodies would be unable to collect any rates upon the lands. Ono of the former owners had stated, in a letter to a Wellington nawspaper (Tub Dominion), that some "insignificant Native agent" was claiming 10 per cent, on the purchase money, and the people were entitled to know .whether such a sum as ,£2500 was to be paid on account of the transaction. The Acting-Priino Minister had stated that there were 200 Natives interested in the block, and ho wished to know how many of those owners attended tho meeting of assembled owners which authorised tho sale. Another question was • tho amount of profit made by Mr. Hermann Lewis on tho sale of tlio land to the syndicate

Sir James Carroll: I do not know anything about it. . .. Mr. Massey: That is a point thatshould como out. Continuing, Mr. Massey said that the company proposed to reserve tho mineral rights. Sir James Carroll: I don't know that. Mr. Massey: Well, you ought to know it, because it is a very important point. The Government had allowed the Natives to part with both the surface and the mineral rights to Hermann Lewis. The syndicate had parted with those rights to the Mokau Coal and Estate Company; it had been stated in the "New Zealand Times" that the company had no intention of parting with- tho mineral rights. Ho was/glad that the Acting-Prime Minister did not. intend to burke inquiry, for the points he had mentioned must he cleared Tip to the satisfaction of the House and the public. He moved an amendment that the matter should bo dealt with by a special committee consisting of Messrs. Allen, Herries, Uerdman, Okev, Jennings, the Hon. J. A. Milar, tho Hon. A. T. Ngata, Messrs. Macdonald, Hogg, and Massey.

The' amendment was seconded by Mr. Hardy.

Mr. W. T. .Jennings (Taumarunui) expressed the opinion that it was unjust to suggest tliat the Native Affairs Committee was not competent to deal with the matter.

FULL INVESTIGATION WANTED. AND PEEK FEOSI TARTY INPLUENCii. ■ Jfr. J. P. Luke (Wellington Suburbs) supported tho amendment as ho thought the Houso and the country pmoraViv wero enlitlod to the fullest information regarding tho transactions. Tho question was whether the people who were parting with Native lands'were king justly treated. Tlh> House would be stultifying itself if it did not agree lo tho appointment of the proposed special committee. Tho mailer must be fully investigated, ami lio desired that tho inquiry should be of such a character that it would l«j free from all suggestions of party iniluenee. Mr. Taylor resented the relied ions which he, said had been cast upon members of the Native A Hairs Committee.

.Mr. ]'"ishcr urged the appointment; of a non-party committee in preference to (he Native Affairs Committee, which was >n largely, composed of members of the Government party. One member of th? comjaittes propoisOj. w fioyeraaeot liad

himself been found guilty last session in regard to certain Native transactions. -Mr. Sfcillworthy: He. paid tho penalty. Mr. Fisher: And did he not get paid for paying the ncnally? .Mr. Taylor: No, he did not. llr. Mrissi-y: He got .CiOOO. Mr. Fishrr went on to deplore, the fact that their system of government necessitated such a motion as had been proposed. They could not get a proper inquiry under a party committee. Sir James Carroll: This is not a party question. Mr. Fisher: Of course it is a party question. Do you mean to toll me that if tho charges are substantiated that ■ tho matter will not be a very important factor at Hie coming general election? The Hon. Thos. Mackenzie: You aTO trying to magnify it into that. An lion, member: AYho would you refer it to? Mr. Fisher: I would refer it to an outside/tribunal. An lion, member: Two Judges? Mr. G. W. Russell: To the Auckland Chamber of Commerce. (Laughter.) Mr. Ngata: The only charge is that tho interests of the Natives have not been looked after. Opposition members: No. Mr. Fisher: No; there are other charges. Mr. Davey: Is it not an unusual thing for the Leader of the Opposition to nominate a Committee of this House? Mt. Fisher: Not if it is made necessary that ho should do so.

REMARKS BY THE NATIVE MEMBERS ME, NGATA AND DR. TE EANGIHIROA. The Hon. A. T. Ngata said that what tho House wanted was not so much the recommendations of a committee as to tho facts, and he thought tho Native Affairs Committee was as competent to elicit the facts as any other committee,. however constituted. The. Native Affairs Committee also know enough of the temper of the House to havo the evidence all taken down, printed and laid beforo the Honse. He resented the suggestion that in .a matter of vital importance, to tho Native race the Native members of tho House should not be represented. When the charges canie to bo formulated, they would find that the first would l>e that the interests of the Native owners had not been properly considered. Who, more than the Native members of Parliament, should be concerned about', tho interests of the Natives? It happened that all the Native members supported the Government The Natives did not send men. of the other party to Parliament.

Mr. Massey: They wiil when we get a majority.

Dγ To Kangihiroa (Northern Maori) protested against taking away a matter of vital importance to tho Native race from tho Native Affairs Committee. He had understood when he entered the House, that matters which concerned the Native race—and there could be no doubt that tllis Mokau case did affect tho Nativerace—were referred to the Native Affairs Committee. If they were to go on like this, what was tho use of tho Native Affairs Committee? (Hear, hear.) He deprecated references that had been .mado by two previous speakers to charges laid against a Native member during tho previous session. He had hoard a lot about British fair play, and regretted that these remarks had been made when the member concerned was not there to bear.

PROBLEMS OF PARTISANSHIP. A DONNYBROOK. Mr. D. M'Laien (Wellington East) said it was desirable, in his opinion, to settlo this matter on non-party lines, but thero was an evident intention on both sides of tho House to make it a party matter. A member: "No fear!"

,He was'not, satisfied with either'of the committees suggested. With fivo members on each side there would be a party Donnybrcok. In setting up such' a committee as this, members who belonged to neither party had as good a right as any to membership. The member for' Auckland East, for Wellington Suburbs, or for Wairau, might be included.

Mr. Okey, Taranaki, considered that there could bo no objection to having ono member of tho Native raco on tho committee. Thero was nioro to be considered than the mere transfer of tho land. It had never been intended that an Order-in-Council should be issued permitting ono person to occupy 53,000 acres ol land. Another matter to be considered was whether settlement , could bo carried out as well by a syndicate as by tho Government. He would support the amendment,. . '

VIEWS OF MR. WRIGHT. THE PRESS ASSOCIATION. Mr. Wright (Wellington South) said it seemed to him that the Press-Association was absolutely under the thumb of tho Government. Ministerialists:- Oh, oh! , Mr. Wright said that at an important meeting recently in Wellington a very strong resolution against tho Government was carried, but the Press Association not only failed to send a fair and adequato report, but failed'even to send the resolution. No doubt the association thought it advisable to support the Government in every shape and form lest some of its privileges should be interfered with. As to the committee question, ho remembered an instanco in-which a petition which had been referred to tho Native Affairs Committee was lost, but fortunately ho had another copy. That was the committee in which they were invited to place so much-confidence. The principal charge in regard to the Mokau lands was the selliug of tho freehold with the sanction of tho Government. How could a committee of 12 members, containing 9 loyal supporters of the Government, bring down a iudicial report, on such a charge? Tho talk about rising above party was absolute hvpocrisy.

He read a letter written by Mr. C. H. Treadwell, then solicitor to Mr. Jones, on June 22, 1910, to Sir Joseph Ward. In this letter Mr. Treadwell said that the Solicitor-General was of opinion that a Eoyal Commission could not be appointed to deal with tho Mokau question. Ho (Jir. Treadwell) suggested that the Government should purchase tho interests of the Natives, which, ho understood, could be dono for .£15,000; that the Government should tako compulsorily tho interests of tho leaseholders, who would bo entitled to claim compensation; and that Mr. Jones should receive a Crown grant of the minerals and other rights. Thu writer also said ho had shown Sir Juseph Ward a communication setting forth that by an arrangement with persons in England Mr. Jones could bo relieved of his difficulties. This letter (Mr. Wright stated) had never been replied to. Why did tho Government let tho opportunity slip when they could havo Ixnight the freehold from the Natives at .£15,000? They could have sold, or, preferably, leated it to settlers. Had the leasehold supporters nothing to say about that? The settlers who would lake up the land now would havo to suffer for all lime on account of (his. He would have preferred to have tho matter investigated hy n judicial body outside the Hou.sn altogether.. Ho had no faith in political committees. A committee with nine Government and three Opposition members would present findings something like those which might be- expected from the Chief Justico in regard to the Cook Islands, where ho hold a secret inquiry, without power to tako evidence on oath.

■.Mr. Jennings said Mr. AVriglit had made a most unfair and unwarrantable statement touching himself as chairman of tho Native Affairs Committee. The facts were that Mr. AVrieht came to him and told him the petition was lost", and he (Mr. Jennings) promised tn give liini all tho assistance he could in Use matter. Mr. "Wrifjht said that: it was Mr. .Tennintrs who came, and told him tho petition was lost. After further alterations and appeals to Ihe Speaker, (V incident was closed by Iho Speaker saying: "If honourable members make diamelrirallv oppoMle ■slalemonls. 1 suppose Ihe IToufo must accept both." (Uugbtor.) MR. RUSSELL'S OPINION. A SUGGESTION. Mr. G. W. Kussell (Avon) said it ap. pr-ared to him that lion, members who had previously spnken, among them Ihe member who had just sat down, were projudu'i'iiß the inquiry. Tho member for Wcllhißlon Central had refenvd to Iho Iline charges of last your. AH would remember the contempt with which tho, filidin? of t|ie Jline Committee hild been spokisn aliout. by Opposition members belore, it .\t,ls brcugUt do.v:£L Alter tho rev

port had boon brought down, not a single member of llio committee, tjiat there had not been a. fair inquiry into every one of the charge;;. Mr. Mussey: "That was a special com. mittee." Mr. Kuspell rejoined that, there hr.d been a majority of Liberal nieinbcrs on the committee. The member for Wellington Central had said that it was impossible to got ;i fair iiic|iiiry from (ho Native. .Affairs Comniittro, because, tho Goverimicnt had a majority of members upon it. His own opinion was that the same would follow in this casa as in tho case of the lline charges. He suggested that another meinber of the Opposition should be added to the Native Affairs Committee so as to brine it up to its full strength. Tho reason that There was a majority of Government members on tho committee was that there wore 51 members on that side of tho House, and 27 on the other.

Mr. Fisher, in a personal explanation, stated that the lion, gentleman had treated him not quite fnirly in attributing to him a statement that members on the Government si(h of the House would not deal with the question fairly. What he had said was that no inquiry would be conducted fairly that was dominated by party influence.

THE GOVERNMENT ON TRIAL. VIEWS OF Mβ. LANG. Mr. F. \X. Lang (Manukau) said he had tho greatest respect lor tUo Native Allairs Committee, ljut this was not a matter of Native affairs. Tho question wus. whether tho Acting-Prime Minister and Native Minister had acted properdin the Mokau case. The Government was really on trial for letting this land get into private hands.

The Acting-Prime Minister: "Is that tho charge!'"

Mr. Lang: "I take the charge to bo that tho Native Minister has done an improper action in allowing this land to fall into the hands of private people instead of the Government settling it themselves." The whole question arose as to whether tho Native Minister had done, his best for the.Dominion. He felt sure that tho people would bo far better satisfied with the report of a committee such as that proposed by Mr. Massey rather than that of which the Native Minister was a member.

Mr. W. H. Field (Otnki) contended that tins was essentially a Native question. Tho Native Affairs Committee was hero to look after the affairs of the Native race. It had been suggested that Native members were unfitted to d-al with the matter, but several honourable members, if they had not prejudiced tho case, had anticipated the report of a. committee. The thing to do was to elicit the Facts. This could be done better by the Native Affairs Committee than by anybody else. The House would have ail' opportunity of discussing the facts when they came down, and if members could not come to a conclusion satisfactory to (ho public, tho public would . have an opportunity later of discussing the facts.

STATEMENT BY MR. STAUWORTHY. DENIED BY MR. MASSEY. Mr. Stallworthy (Kajpara) regretted tho reflections that had been cast on Parliament, the highest Court in the land. Ho did not enro what committee this matter was referred to. It seemed to him that the caso of the Leader of tho Opposition must be a very bad olio when ,he wanted to set up his own committee. Mr. Massey had that afternoon mado ,misstateinents in connection with this matter on the floor, of the House and had admitted it. ■

Mr. Massey: "That is contrary to fact." He added, in personal explanation, that ho absolutely denied Mr. Stallworthy's allegations. • .Every statement he had mado in regard to tho Mokau transaction had been proved up to tho hilt. Not ono had been challenged. Mr. Stallworthy asked if Mr. Massey had not said, reading his own interview in Auckland, that the Parliamentary Comniittce had recommended favourable consideration. Ho (Mr. Stallworthy) had f-aid nothing about Mokau Jones ct Hermann Lewis.

Mr. Massey said Mr. Stallworthy was trying (o place him in a , false - position in regard to the report of the committea of last year.. The substance of its report was exactly as he had stated, and ho had been absolutely right. Mr. Stallworthy denied (hat he had been guilty of misrepresentation.

THE VOTING. AN INTERESTING DIVISION. GOVERNMENT MAJORITY ONLY SEVEN. \ Mr. _ Massey'e amendment was lost on, a division, the voting being 33 to 2G> : I'ollowing is the division list;— Against the Amendment (33), Arnold i Lawry uuuuo Macdonald Carroll M'lvenzie, E. Colviu Mackenzie, T. Davoy Millar Hon. T. Duncan Ngata EH Parata Field Poole Forbes Kangihiroa Fowlds Keed Glover \ "Kussell Graham Smith Hall' ■ Stallworthy n'anan ' Steward Hogg Taylor Jennings ' Thomson,. J. C. La'urensoa For the Amendment (20). Anderson Hiiio Bollard Laug Buchanan LukG Buick M'Laren Clark Malcolm I)ivo Massey Duncan, J, Newman Fisher Nosworthy I'raser Okoy Guthrio rhillipps Hardy Scott Hordman Thomson, G. M. Herries Wright

Tho Acting-Primo Minister said he was sorry that so much irrelevant matter liad been introduced. The issue was quite plain: whether tho Native Affairs Committee was the proper committee or the Select Committee proposed by tho Leader of tho Opposition. He (the ActingPrime Minister) had replied to the various questions and interrogations that had been put. Mr. Massey: No, you left them. • Tho Acting-Primo Minister: They have been answered, and I think it my duty to supply every official record or fact that is in our possession. Ho anticipated that when a full inquiry had been made,, the hon. gentleman would lx> satisfied. It might bo that certain facts, placed toKcther in a certain way. might suggest a doubt as to the propriety of ccrlain actions. Some, no doubt, would take that view. A plain exposition of tho 'facts, however, would satisfy every mombor of tho Hcm«) flint Uio best had been dono under tho circumstances for tho Native owners and others concerned.

Tho Acting-Premier subsequently gave, notice that he will move that the name of Mr. Dive- be added to the Native Affaire Committee.