A DOMINEERING MINISTER.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1189, 26 July 1911, Page 8

A DOMINEERING MINISTER.

THE ACTING-ESAYOR BROW-BEATEN.

HECTORED AND GAGGED.

HUMILIATING -.EPISODE -AT A DEPUTATION.

THOSE TRAM RULES.

'At 10.30 o'clock yesterday morning, the hour, at which tho;deputation from the ..Tramways Conference had ; arranged to meet tho Minister for Public , Works (tho IHori. E. M'Kenzie), tho Minister was not ready for them, and tho interview was adjourned for half an hour. The deputa-tion-waited on tho footpath in front of Ihe "Government Buildings.

'•At. ill o'clock they again entered the Buildings and wero escorted to tho CabSnet.room. .

"You look pretty comfortable this morning," said the Hon. E. M'Kenzio' as ho entered a few minutes later. "I hope it ; is tho result of heariug your Town Hall organ last night."

._ Tho Minister'.laughed, 'but tho gatherling, which had. risen courteously as ho 'entered, seated itself in unresponsive leilence. '■;■■'■ .• > ' •

Minister and Acting-Mayor. i The. chairman of the conference,- -Mr. Uohn Smith, of Wellington (ActingIMayor), roso to speak.

; "Before-,wo staTt," said the Minister, F'letiiis have a fair understanding. Your (conduct; , Mr. Smith, has been so discreditjablo.that I prefer, to deal with someone ,*lse." ,

i Mr. Smith, quite taken aback, endeavloured to protest'.

I "I think a man who has acted as you have done," interrupted tho . Minister, 'over these regulations should not bo on the deputation at all." f

I "I think it is unjustifiablo that one who lis a Minister of tno Crown should speak as you do," said Wellington's ActingIMayor, with dignity. ! Tho Minister: "Well, that is my opinJion. You can think what you like." : Tho Acting-Mayor: "Well, I don't think your opinion is at nil justified." i Tho Minister: "You had better bo civil ,t>r I will order yon to leave the room." i The Acting-Mayor, who was shaking and [visibly much upset at tho Minister's atItack, rejoined: "I have only done in this iriiatter right through what I consider my Kluty." Tho Minister: "Nobody else would consider it his duty to give away a confidential document. No honourable man .■would have done what you have." I Mr. Smith: 'Ton h&vo no right to ■gpeak to me like that." ' Ho resumed his scat. A Deputy-Speaker. Some-of the members, of the conference /had meanwhile held-a whispered consulta-' 'tion, and then Mr. Booth, a Christcliurch delegate, rose and said lio regretted exceedingly that tlio Minister had found it iiiDccssary to administer the rebuke ho had fto the chairman of the conference, because it put them in a. difficulty. Tho Minister: "You need not be in a jdifficul.ty.-at all, becauso I can hear tho irest of you."

"Some of us," continued Mr. Booth, ''think the rebuke may not bo irameritcd 'because tlie communication (the regulations) was sypposed to' bo confidential." 'There had been a good deal of feeling in itho public press on that point, and he thought it just as well, perhaps, to say ■what ho :had in order to clear tho uir ■It had been thought best by the conference that before any publicity was given to their deliberations they should go first to tho Minister with their criticisms of ■■the regulations, and ha hoped, in fact he :felt sure, that the Minister's mind would not bo prejudiced by the unfortunate position that had arisen.

1 do not propose-to criticiso'the clauses of the regulations., in detail," continued Mr. Booth.- It would take a. long time. :lhe conference;had, in" foot,"passed .a resolution that-the'Minister be asked to OJcrmit a conferenee.to bo hold between the expert representatives of-the ' tramways and-the responsible officers of tho department'regarding tho technical and ■other details of the regulations, before jtho latter aro issued, in their final form, at would bo almost impossible for tho deputation at that stage to go into all tho ! details with the Minister. They could be (thrashed out more satisfactorily in tho ksonferenco lie. had suggested. The recomjmendation, of the "technical" emb-com-liuittee of the conference could be laid (before the Minister, but even lhe«6 would jconvey very little. The Minister would Require, to know all tho reasons which had ;«uggested tho alterations, and that would jtako up a lot of time. It was not sugtgested the presence of the experts in Weljlington now' should be taken advantage jpf.. It.was'a.matter for several days' eonisideration; and the exports would bo ready jto confer with the Department's represonttatives at any time.

: Another resolution had been passed by rthe conferenee, proceeded Mr. Booth. /They had felt tlvnt the course adopted by rthc Public Works Department, viz., of issuing tho regulations in a tentative way for criticism, with the idea that sircii criticisms would be. considered and modifications made before tho regulations were gazetted, had met. with their cordial approval. It was a course that had been adopted for many years with great success by tho British Board of Trade in tho regulation of street traffic, lie understood that such, a course had been in the Minister's mind when ho issued these regulations. Every assistance the tramways Fystoms could give iu carrying out this idea," and in having every detail discussed, would be forthcoming; and they.would BupppTt the Minister in getting tho regulations affirmed. Of course it was obvi-ous-.that this was going to be a difficult matter. The systems in tho Dominion .varied-so much.

A Resolution, The resolution he had referred to, said Mr. Booth, was as follows:— That the-Minister he asked to arrange for export representatives of tho different tramway systems to' confer with the. responsible, officers and tho engineering staff of his Department regarding technical or other details to bo dealt' with in the proposed re- ■ eolations bsfore the issuing of modified regulations. That in new of tlio- varied local conditions under which the several tramways systoms of tho Dominion are being-worked and of variations in their equipment *nd tho difficulty'of framing regulations' which, while properly providing for tho safety of tho public will, at tho same timu, be reasonably applicable, to , the several systems, it is- suggested to the favourable consideration of tho Minister that in future the Public Works Department issue recoiiimendatioiß as is understood to bo the practice o.f tho British Board of Trade, such regulations to be tested by the' Several tramway authorities as to their utility and practicability for, say, 12 month's before their being embodied iu the binding regulations. Mr. Booth proceeded that he-preferred not to discuss any of the amendments suggested by tho conference- until they had been discussed by technical experts representing; both sides. The 'Minister: "But they havo been published !'•" Mr. Booth: "Yes, but not our reasons." THE MINISTER'S EXPLANATION. THE DESIRE 01' THE GOVERNMENT. Tho Minister: "Perhaps it' will be as well if I indicate the position of the Government in connection with the matter. , , ~ J. wish, to jmpress oa you

that we sent out the regulations marked 'private and confidential' (which was exceedingly abused) with a view of consuLiug you chieily to get your suggestions in anvthing you wanted to recommend.. Tho position of the Government is that we owe a duty to the public. Parliament imposed on tliq Government: certain things in connection with the tramways last session. These things, whether suitable to a, certain section of the community or not, would have to bo done. The desire of the Government, the Minister proceeded, was to give the municipalities every facility to carry on their own business in the best way. The regulations were not an attempt , , as had i been said in the Wellington press, on tho part of the Government to get control of the tramways. The Government had to attend to the safety of , the public, and this duty was just as important in.regard to the tramways as in any other direction. This was thrashed out during tlwi session. The regulations, he continlied, were nerer gone into by tho Government at all. They wore issued by the Department. There were certain matters contained in them that had a legal aspect. He would welcome a conference regarding the technical matters, but the lepal- details must, bo kept in conformity •jvith tho Act. The Government did not intend t'o Gazette tho regulations as they had been sent out. ■ The Government had not wanted, cither, to harase the tramway authorities or the public in any way.

A Dig at Wellington. As far as Wellington was concerned, tho Government did not want to raise their fares. Instead of increasing their fares if they treated their men a littlo better and brushed the cobwebs off tho management, they could reduce the fares 25 per cent, (Murmurs from Wellington representatives.) There were certain of tho regulations that would have to apply to Wellington, and, perhaps, Auckland, but would net apply to Christcliurch and Duncdin. In regard to Wellington, he believed the Government allowed three more miles than they allowed themselves. But they were not going to be allowed to deceive themselves by showing that a thirty-mile time-table could be run at a rate of fifteen miles per hour. "You will understand , that Parliament tied the Government down to a position, and that Sisition the Government will stand to." o would see that Cabinet were given their suggestion. Personally, ho had no objection to the conference between the Department and tho tramway experts. He did not for one moment, • however, concede that the Government v;as going to affirm everything tho conference did. It had been said at the conference that if it were not for the Act of Parliament and they were allowed to draft their own regulations, they would do what was best for the tra-mways, but there was' the public also to consider. If they held their conference without desirinir to make political capital out of it, he had no doubt it would be easy for them to come to an understanding. However, the Government were prepared to give every assistance, and did not want to harass the local bodies. He would recommend to his colleagues that the conference bo held. As far as overcrowding was concerned, he did not say that that was a technical subject for experts to deal with. It was a question of fact. As far as regulation of traffic was concerned, he did not intend to interfere with it at all.

About the Step. As far as the "stop" was concerned, ho did not think there need be any difficulty. Every cab had an automatic step, and there was nothing to prevent the trams, if necessary, being provided with them. (Murmurs.) He admitted that there wero several questions in tho regulations that would never, perhaps, have passed Cabinet. Mr. Booth: "What you have said is just exactly what I expected you would say from the deliverances you have already made on the matter. I think we recognifo that yon are only anxious to do what is fair and reasonable, and the experts and authorities will bo only too willing to help you. I think, however, you should explain the word 'technical.' The technical details can scarcely ho confined to equipment. There are tramc technicalities, also."

The Minister (ironically): "I can quite understand that. The overloading too! I presume that would bo a technical question too?"

Mr. Booth': "There are other questions that lire not mechanically technical, but involve special knowledge of tramways and their conditions of working." The Minister: "I shall impress upon the Government officers that they are not to do anything that is outside of the Orde-r-in-Council. You must work in accordance with that."

Mr. Booth: "That is quite right. These matters concern the 'safety' and 'convenience' of the public. Our main object is to ■carry people," The Minister: "That goes without saying— and some of you want to carry as many as you can!" Mr. Booth: "Not .only because we want the extra fares, but because the people want to gel; from one place to another as fast ns they can." .

' Tho Minister: "My premier function is to protect, them against you and .against themselves also."

Mr. Booth: "I don't think you >houlil consider us as their enemies. (Hear, hear.) However, if you will do as yim propose, , it will save a lot of further discussion this morning."

A Dunedin Expert, Mr. Booth then suggested that Jtr. Alexander, tramway manager, of Dunedin, who. hiul presided at the meeting of experts tho previous evening, might like to say a few words. Mr. M'Kenzie: Very well. Jlr. Alexander said that the expert 9 recognised that their work in altering some clauses and deleting others would seem to the Minister very bare nnd brief. They therefore desired a chance- to-show the Government experts why clauses were deleted, nnd so forth. The Minister: "There is another thing I would impress upon the conference, and it is this: That most (if the alterations to the regulations as reported in the newspapers nro couched in ambiguous language. We are not going. lo have any ambiguity in our regulations." Mr. Alexander: "It was most annoying to us—and most unfair— to find that t'hoso alterations to the regulations were published this morning. Wo feel—l don't know exactly the words lo express if—but we fool that we have been fondly trealed by our own conference. We were fmminjf .something lo put before you, and not before the people of Xew Zealand." Mr. Alexander said in conclusion that ho did not think there was anything else to be done. The experts would go into (he matter with tho Government experts and come to some conclusion.

Mr. M'Kenzio: "Provided Cabinet approves." -Mr. Alexander suggested that the conference of the two lots of experts should get right away to business. Tho Minister: "I will try and get ,1 Cabinet meeting, and enable it to be done." Mr. Booth: "I disagree with Mr. Alexander to a certain extent. I don't think it advisable to do the thing in a hurry. It's no good trying to do it this afternoon. It might be better to havo the experts in Wellington for a week." "Justice to Mr. Smith." "I hnv.e only one thing more to say," tidded Mr. Booth, "and that. I must say in justice to Mr. Smith. When the conference met last evening, he announced that-in accordant with the general'de-

sire nothing was to Ijo divulged to the press." Tho Minister Inuchcil. Mr. Smith: "It was not my fault that tin , information got into tho press-." Wellington city delegates: "Hear! lu-nr!"

MR. R. FLETCHER'S REMARKS. a matter ov orjxio.vs. Tho deputation were about In withdraw, when 31 r. t'leldier (City Councillor) said ho would like lo siy a few word.s. "1 wish to my," he went on, "that I very much regret indfed thar tho Acting-Mayor has not been allowed to say something this morning, as representing tho oily of Wellington. T also regret the unfortunate incident that took place in regard to the publication of the confidential document. At the fame time, I think the council are involved in a very large undertaking in regard to their trams, and 1 think it would be, perhaps, gracious on your part if you heard him, even though you censured him. ns representing the council." When the. matter tJime beiore the City Council, ho (Mr. Fletcher) had moved that they write to the Under-S.ecretary for Public Works, pointing out how difficult, it was to discuss a document that was confidential, ami suggesting that the embargo be removed. Quito a number of the regulations he could agree with, but some were absurd and impracticable, and he did not know whether the Department's engineer had anything to do with tho framing of them, but he should say he had not; because most engineers he had spoken to ngrei-d that quite a number of the regulations were too absurd—

"What Are You Driving At?"

The Minister: "What are you driving at now? They might be absurd from your point of view, but you might not be an expert. 1 don't take your opinion at all."

3lr. Fletcher: "I didn't ask you to; but I am entitled to express my opinion, and I certainly will express it." He said he got his information from engineers and experts*.

The Minister: "I don't attach much importance to it."

Mr. Fletcher: "I attach as much importance to your opinion as you do to mine."

Mr. Fletcher went on to say that he also took exception to the statement of theMinistor regarding the treatment that was Riven by the Wellington City Council to the tramway men. He had hod five years' experience of the matter, and he declared that the treatment had been exceptionally good. Ho also ventured <o say that the treatment the men got from the council under the old system was better than under the new method of the Appeal Board that had been set up by the Government. He knew of no single case in which a man coming before the council had not been treated most generously. The Minister again laughed. "They came to me and told me all about it!"

Mr. Fletcher: "Yes, there will always be a certain number of men in »v"r body who will haw complaints and tell people about them, mid .sometimes uioy ru not .proper complaints. But you must take the opinion of the whole body." The Minister interrupted: "Speak of the tramway regulations," he said. Mr. Fletcher: "I am speaking of tho regulations now." The Minister: "No, you are speaking of Wellington." _ Mr. Fletcher: ;'Woll, you spoke of Wellington a 'few minutes ago."

Would Tak3 His Seat. The Minister again inleriupted, and Mr. Fletcher protested that if the Minister would not allow him to go on he would tako his seat. Another brief passage occurred. Mr. Fletcher went on-to say that the Wellington, among other Dominion trmways systems, had been reported by tin? Royal Commission, 190 D, as very good. He said emphatically that some of the regulations, in his opinion, were pernicious to a majority of tho systems, in New Zealand. Ho hoped a number of thorn would be removed as the result of the conference, and a number modified.

Of the Same Opinion Still. The Minister again rose: "I wish to express my pleasure in meeting you. I was going to tell Mr. Fletcher that I had put my opinion of the Wellington tramways management on record in Parliament." (The Minister held up a copy of "Hansard.") "It is recorded under November 28, 1910, and I have not changed my opinion yet. Thi- is what I said." (The Minister then , started to read one or two brief excerpts from his "Hansard" sDeech on the Tramways Bill of last session.) Mr. Fletcher (interrupting): "I have rend it all." The Minister continued. Mr. Fletcher: "You needn't go on; I've read it all." "Go and Play Your Organ." The Minister: "You can go and piny on your town organ and we will still bo here. I am not going to run away." The Minister concluded his reading. Mr. Fletcher: "You needn't have bothered. I've read it all." Tho Minister: "Well, you had better go and read if again!" Mr. Fletcher would get his reasons there for his remarks about the trams. : Mr. Fletcher: "You have only got your own opinion to go upon. I have got mine from experts." The Minister then sat down, and Mr. Booth thanked him for the hearing he had given the conference.