THE LICENSING BILL.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 972, 12 November 1910, Page 6

THE LICENSING BILL.

FURTHER CRITICISM IN PARLIAMENT KING COUNTRY AND LIQUOR. SEVERAL HEATED EXCHANGES. THIRD READING CARRIED.

The Licensing Bill again came up for consideration in the House of Representatives yesterday, when discussion was resumed on Section 34, which deals with tho illegal use of premises as places of resort for the consumption of intoxicating liquor

It was resolved that the initial clause should read: "No building, room, or other premises in any No-License district shall be kept or used as a place of resort for the consumption of intoxicating liquor on those premises."

: Mr. T. E. Taylor | (Christchurch North) said that what was wanted was legislation to prevent any person from storing liquor for the use of another person. Sir Joseph: I intend to go into, the whole matter of the locker system. Right to Vote in King Country. Mr. Jennings (Taumarunui) moved a new clause providing that a poll should be taken in the King Country as well as in other parts of the Dominion on the question as to whether or not licenses should be, granted in the district. He said that when . the King Country was made a prohibition area its residents were chiefly Natives. Now, however, there was a large white population, and the district was' one of the most intelligent and enterprising in New Zealand. He proposed that the majority to carry any issue should be three-lifths. If the electors favoured licenso he proposed that they should not exceed one to every 1000 inhabitants. Mr. Massey: Is it proposed to give tho Natives a vote? Mr. Jennings: No. Mr. Laurenson (Lyttelton) raised a point of order that as the amendments affected the Natives they should also be rendered in Maori. The Chairman ruled against the point of order. Mr. T. E. Taylor (Christchurch North) did not think such an amendment could be made in view of tho proclamation of 1884, which made tho sale of liquor in the King Country illegal. ' .

Mr. Herries (Tauranga) argued that the existence of any proclamation could not prevent the passing of any clause, otherwise the Treaty •of Waitangi would prevent the passing of legislation affecting the Natives.

Mr. T. E. Taylor (Christchu'rch North) declared that many people had gone to live in tho King Country because if was a sanctuary, wliore drink was not allowed to enter. What hapI>ened ujxm the grant of tho wholesale licenses in the King Country? There were three violent deaths at Raetihi within a few months.

Mr. Jennings: Absolutely untrue. Mr.-Poolo (Auckland West) said that he felt very strongly on the matter. The chief sly grog-sellers did not live in the King Country, but in the largo centres, from which tho liquor was sent to the King Country. If any man had a soul he must enter his protest in the matter. The Prime Minister's Attitude. Mr. Taylor (to tlie Prime Minister): What aro yon doing? Sir Joseph: I am opposing the amendment. Mr. Jennings: You aro breaking your word. Mr. Chairman: You must withdraw that statement. Mr. Jennings: The Prime Minister does, not object. The Chairman; You must withdraw it. Mr. Jennings: Well, I will, but I am sorry that the Prime Minister is not keeping his word to a public deputation and to the Houso.

Continuing, Mr. Jennings said that it was a]] very well for Mr. Poole to talk about character, but long before Mr. Poole entered the House he (Mr. Jennings) had a higher character than Mr. Poolo ever would have. He would admit that there was a lot of sly grogselling in the King Country. That was what he wanted to remedy. Why, during the past six years thero had been enough drink sent in there to float half a dozen Dreadnoughts. A Lively Interlude. Mr. Poole: And those who are sending it there are the men who are inspiring this clauso. . Mr. Jennings: You ought; to withdraw that remark. ■ Why, you are only to a large extent ,a "carpet bagger" in this country. The Chairman: That expression must be withdrawn.

Mr. Jennings said he had seen more Maoris drunk in Mr. Okey's own town than in the King Country. The position was amply safeguarded under the clause. The people of the King Country had a democratic right to settle this question for themselves.

Mr. Laurenson regretted the attack made on Mr. Poole. The member for Auckland West had been called a carpet-bagger, a term implying casual residenco in the Dominion. Mr. Poole had been a respected resident of the Dominion for fifteen years. He had been returned twice in succession by a constituency in tho largest city of tho Dominion, and occupied an honourable position in tho life of the country. Mr. Jennings remarked that Mr. Poole had attacked him. Liquor and Dreadnoughts. Mr. Laurenson replied that no attack had been made on Mr. Jennings's character. He had a high regard for the member for Taumarunui. and he did not think a reflection had been made on his character. Mr. Poole simply asked who inspired the clause. He was not\going to say anything on the question more than that having made a solemn compact 26 years ago honour demanded we should keep it. To show the hyperbole of Mr. Jennings's statement that there had been enough liquor in the King Country to float six Dreadnoughts, Mr. Laurenson stated that to float six Dreadnoughts would require 18,000,000 gallons of liquor, and the total consumed by the whole of New Zealand was 11,000,000 gallons. Dr. To Rangihiroa said that promises made to the Maoris had usually been made for the time being. As far as tho younger Maoris were concerned they were against the introduction of liquor into tho King Country, and at three conferences tho Young Maori party had carried resolutions against such a step. He opposed the clause, though oil the liquor question he took up a moderate attitudo.

Mr. Hogan (Wanganui) argued that people in the back-blocks of the King Country were as much entitled to vote on questions of local and national importance as people in other parts of the Dominion. He had not talked the matter over with Mr. Jennings, and it could not be said he had been inspired, but he favoured the clause. If the people of the 'King Country wished to keep it a sanctuary against tho temptations of drink they would vote against tho introduction of liquor. The Division. The new clause was rejected by 53 votes to 13. , , Against the Amendment (53). Allen Mackenzie, T. Anderson M'Laren Arnold Malcolm Buchanan Mander Buddo Massey Buxton Millar Carroll Newman Clark Ngata Craigie Nosworthy Davey Okey Dive Phillipps Duncan, J. Poolo EII To Rangihiroa Field Reed Fisher Rhodes Forbes 1 ■ Russell Fraser Scott Graham Sidey Guthrie Stallworthy Hall Steward Hanan Taylor, E. H. Hardy Taylor, T. E. Hogg Thomson, J. Laurenson Ward Luke Witty Macdonald Wright M'Kcnzie, R. •' For the Amendment (13). Bollard Kaihau Duncan, T. Lang Glover Lawry Herdman Myers Herrie-s Parata Hogan Pearce Jennings The Dominion Vote, After the vote liad been taken Mr. G. W. Russell (Avon) asked the Prime Minister to assure the House that the people in the King Country would have a vote on the Dominion issue.

Sir Joseph Ward said ho thought that right was safeguarded, but he would make quite sure. The whole Dominion was treated as on© licensing district.

Mr. Hogg: The same argument will apply to No-License districts. Mr. .Massey considered there was. no difficulty. The people in tho Taumarunui electorate now had a vote in respect to hotels —such as those at Waitara —which wero outside the King Country although in the olcctorate. Sir Joseph said there appeared to be no doubt that all the Europeans would have the right to exercise the vote, but he would make quite sure. Native Local Option. Dr. Te Rangihiroa moved a new clause to the effect that from time to time, when interest was aroused on the subject among tho Natives in a district they should be allowed to express their opinion on the question of local option, the poll to be conducted by tho Maori Council, which should pay the expenses incurred. In doing so, he said, tho Maoris had not reached tho stago of evolution that would enable them to oxercise the necessary self-control in respect to what might be a useful beverage. If a majority of tho Natives should decide against tho liquor traffic they would prohibit themselves. ' Mr. Pass: What majority do you propose ? Dr. To Rangihiroa: Bare majority. The clause was added to the Bill on tho voices.

Mr. Jennings: I withdraw it, but I am not going to allow him or any other, member to make an aspersion against my character. Mr. Jennings explained further that he had not been influenced by anybody in the matter.

Tho Prime Minister said that he did not_ think the time was ripe when the ordinary licensing laws should be applied to the King Country. > Mr. Lawry (Parnell) said that Mr. Poole professed to know a lot about the subject. As a matter of fact he knew very littlo. He talked about the compact with tho Natives. Why did ho not get up and protest against the violation of the first principlo of that compact ? Mr. Poole: I have too much sympathy for you to insult you—that is what I think of you. (Oh's.) Mr. Lawry: You can never take an insult from a man who has common sense. 1 •Proceeding, Mr. Lawry said that ho was the -first European member outside the Ministers to address a meeting in the King Country. There were 3000 Natives and 2000 Europeans present. Tho Hon. A. J. Cadman said at that meeting that the Maoris and tlio Europeans should have an opportunity to dccide whether licenses should be granted in the King Country. And this was the proper attitude to take up on tho subject. Why, Mr. Poole himself had always said that the vote of the people should be taken -to decide every question. What had happened? The Government had been influenced by the fanatics of the country, not one of whom he would trust. He would just as soon trust a pet canary in tho clutches of a wild, hungry, torn cat. It was to bo regretted that the Hon. . Mr. Ballance should havo refused to givo offcct to a distinct promise given at the big gathering to which he had alluded. This was the only blot on tho political escutcheon of a great statesman. Mr. Okey (Taranaki) strongly protested against the statement by Mr. Lawry to the effect that the temperance peoplo were fanatics. Mr. E. 11. Taylor (Thames) protested against the amendment being even 1 considered.

Mr. Fisher (Wellington Central) proposed a new clause, the object of which was to secure that every agreement that was made between an owner of licensed premises _ and any other premises shall be fair and equitable, and shall not in any way infringe the principles of the Licensing Act. He said that it was moved with the object of doing away with the evils of the tiedhouse system. There had been repeated cases where harassing conditions had been thrust on licensees by owners of properties. Mr. Wilford (Hutt) could not see the wisdom of the clause'. Mr. Fisher: The Philadelphia lawyer is always ready to pick out defects. He should wait until I lmvo thoroughly explained the provision. Then ho could mako his remarks on the subject. An Important Division. Mr. Wilford: Perhaps 1 could not .make jcou understand. . . J

Mr. Fisher You are sometimes incapable of making anyone understand. (Laughter.) Upop a division the clause was rejected by 38 votes to 34. Against-the Clause (38). Arnold Mackenzio, Hon. T. Bollard M'Laren Brown Millar Buddo Myers Carroll Ngata Craigio Nosworthy Davey , Parata Duncan, Hon. Rangihiroa Ell Reed Field Russell Forbes Seddon Glover Smith Graham Stallworthy Greenslade Steward Kaihau • Taylor, E. H. Laurenson Taylor, T. E. Lawry Ward Luke Wilford Macdonald • Witty For the Clause (34). Allen Hogan Anderson Hogg Buchanan Lang ; Buick Malcolm Clark Mander Dive Massey Duncan, J. Newman Fisher Okey Fraser Pearce Guinness Phillipps Guthrie Poland Hall Poole Hanan Rhodes Hardy Ross Herdinan Scott Herries Thomson, J. C. Hine , Wright Mr. Wright (Wellington South) moved a new clause to meet the offence of "lighthouse" selling. He proposed that power should be given to constables to arrest a man who is caught in the act of sly grog-selling on the street, and take him before a. Justice of the Peace, who shall decide whether a warrant should be issued. The Premier said that ho was against arrest without) a warant. He would not object to power being given to a constable to take the name and address of a person suspected of selling liquor on the street. If the proposal were allowed to stand over he would bring down an amendment himself. Mr. Wright agreed to this course. The schedules were amended as under :— First schedule to contain the following issues—

I Vote for Continuance. I Vote for No-License. Second schedule to contain the following issues— I Vote for Local Restoration. I Vote for Local No-license. As regards national option, the fourth schedule is to oontain the following issues— I vote Against National prohibition. I Vote for' National Prohibition. A fifth schedule traa added to contain the following issues— I Vote for National Restoration. I Vote for National Prohibition. There was some discussion as to whether the Bill should be read a third time that evening, and ultimately the Premier announced that he intended to move the third reading at a later stage. Motion to Adjourn the Debate Lost. 'Subsequently, at 11 p.m., on the motion that the amendments be considered, Mr. Massey moved the adjournment of the debate. His object (he said) was that the Bill as amended should be printed, in order that its provisions might (if necessary) be further considered by members before the Bill left the House. It could not be said' that the Legislative Council had no other business.

The Premier said it would be better to let the Bill go on to the Legislative Council. .'

gresaive. legislation, but such a , pledge I would not bo asked 'for again in view' of the elfoct it had had this time. Several Redeeming Features. The Bill had several redeeming features. One was the sejiaration of the ballot papers, the uniting of which was never sanctioned by the No-License party. The temperance party would never be satisfied till it got the present handicap of the majority reduced. The party would never be satisfied till, it got the democratic bare majority. Considering the constitution of the House the Bill was fairly satisfactory, but the fight would bo continued unceasingly until the country was freed from the operations of the liquor traffic. Mr. F. La wry (Parnell) said 999 men out of a thousand had no right to say to tho one mail that he should not buy or '"sell a glass of beer. He protested against, the dominance of the liquor issue, and ho hoped that great national issues would be dealt with in future, and trumpery insignificant things such as this allowed to drop.

Sir. .E. H. Taylor (Thames) said tho House realised tho strength of tho temperance sentiment in the country. He was not down-hearted at tho result of the divisions in the House, but he warned members that at next election the question of the bare majority was going to be a much more burning question than ever before. He was disappointed at the loss of the reduction issuo, and the fact that the majority had not been reduced, but he did not think tho prohibition sentiment was not strong enough to carry national prohibition on a threes fifths majority. In a few years the barmaid would have gone, and this and several other reforms were very desirable. A Prediction. Mr. Mander (Marsden) said that he believed that it was unwise to. alter tho existing la.w. The No-Lioense party had not much to be thankful for in the matter of the amendments. Advanced legislation could not be expected at the present time. To have forced tho legislation was bad generalship on. the part of the Temperance party. He would predict that at the next election the No-Lioense party would not close a quarter of the number of hotels that were closed as a_ result of last felection. If compensation were allowed in respect of the houses that had been recently built he would agree to the bare majority. Mr. T. E. Taylor (Christehurch North) said, he did not see why disappointment should be expressed with the Bill. It was impossible with the present House for tho No-License party to get all the amendments it desired. Mr. Malcolm had expected too much—'

Mr. Malcolm: I thought we would'get the 55 per cent.

Mr. Taylor (continuing) said that that was only possible with an embarrassing ballot paper. He thought that the expectations of the Trade - would prove a disappointment. Only one issue now remained. That was the question of majority. He looked upon the Bill as having cleared the decks. He had never regarded the reduction issue &£ being fair. Honours to the No-lilcenss Party. It had practically been a dead letter for the ■ last two or three . polls. He had not "thought that the majority would be altered this year. It was pleasing that the depot system had been dealt , with. More could be said, but he did not think it could be said wisely. Ho believed in the , bare majority—it was better that a majority of one should rule than that a minority of two-fifths should. He congratulated the Government on dealing with _ a most difficult subject, in regard to which he believed the No-License party had the most ground for congratulation." Mr. Anderson (Mataura) said that he would be surprised if the No-License people got more than a bare majority on: the national,-.issue.' It was absurd for breweries to be continued in NoLicense'districts. '.J

Mr. Stallworthy (Kaipara) said that the No-License people had only lost the right to. vote on the reduction issue.' And they had agreed to suffer that loss. Had they gained anything? Yes, a good deal, including the right tovote on national option. The bare majority would be adopted after the nest election.

Mr. Hall (Waipawa) hoped the Leader, of the Opposition would withdraw his objection to the third reading of the Bill proceeding. The session had extended twenty weeks, and after all the claptrap that had been talked it was time members were going back to their homes. On a division the motion to adjourn the debate was lost by 44 votes to 26. THE THIRD READING. BILL FURTHER CRITICISED. MR. MALCOLM DISAPPOINTED. On the motion for the third reading of tho Bill, ' Mr. Malcolm (Clutha) said the people had had a right to expect a substantial measure of licensing reform, but they had failed W got it. The liquor trade retained the three-fifths majority, and one could only look upon this victory as simply amazing. The cutting out of reduction wa-s another concession to the Trade. Four years and seven months had been granted the Trade before National Prohibition came into force. ,

Messrs. Russell (Avon) and Wright (Wellington South), and the Hon. A. Ngata continued the discussion. The Prime Minister in the course of his remarks said he was glad that the leaders of the No-Licenso party in the House had been willing to recognise that a section of the House was tied by election pledges to the three-fifths majority. The Bill was then jut through its final stages and passed. PRESS OPINIONS. BATTLEDORE AND SHUTTLECOCK. (By Telegraph.—Snecial CorreenondentJ Auckland, November 11. The Government's volte face; on the Licensing Bill-is dealt with editorially by the "Herald" this morning. Tho paper says: "Inconsistency in the Ministry is never astonishing, but its singular indifference to the dignity and firmness which go so far to the making of : . good Government has never been more' unblushingly exhibited than in the right-about-faca on the Licensing Bill. When the Bill appeared again yesterday, the Government had completely changed its policy, for nobody can change opinions in this summary fashion. Evidently the Government is as lacking in conviction upon the liquor question as upon every other, desiring only to please as many members as possible, and to offend as little as. it may. This method, which makes of Government politics the njere shuttlecock of battledore interests, be a satisfactory expedient for politicians whose only aim is to retain office, but it is fatal to statesmanship and demoralising to politics."

The Prime Minister: know they asked•for nine years. Mr. Malcolm: Asked! Theyj might ask for ninety years.

Again (said Mr. Malcolm) they had been granted what was very dear to them (the Trade), "No license, no liquor," in the event of National Prohibition. The professed gains made by the No-License party wero that bottle licenses were abolished, minor provisions had been made for the better enforcement of the law in No-License areas, and some regulations had been introduced into the Bill dealing with the regulation of the law as it stands. Further, the age of youths to whom liquor can be supplied had been raised from 18 to 21. It was also claimed that barmaids had been abolished, but every member of the House knew that this was not so. Nothing had been gained in regard to the question of barmaids, not one of whom would lose their occupations by the carrying of the Bill. ' ! "A Triumph for the Trade." The Bill was a complete triumph for the Trade. Ho regretted the victory of the brewers, but he admired the cleverness, astuteness, and force with which they had played the game. This miserable apology for licensing reform was the result of the conciliatory spiritshown by the No-license party. Personally, he had done with conciliation on this question, and ho trusted that tho No-license party would also be' done with it. They would, ho hoped, recognise that they had gained nothing, but had lost much by their conciliatory spirit. Disappointment would be felt by thousands of men and women who had sacrificed themselves for tho good of the cause. Substantial results had been expected, but had been denied. 31r. Poole (Auckland Wost) expressed regret that the last speaker had shown such a depressed spirit. He (Mr. Malcolm) must bo slightly liverish. It was quite depressing to call to mind the utterances ho had made. There was nothing to go into ecstacies over in the Bill, but he could not "bust". out laughing over it, nor could he "bust" out crying over it. Tho No-License party was up against a stiff proposition, because so many members were" pledged to tho threefifths majority at the last election. Some of the members no doubt found it was' mighty convenient to have this pledge to shelter themselves behind when progressive legislation was brought forward. The pledge was asked ,[or in;.view of the jjossibiiity. of retro-