FIVE MILLION LOAN.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 972, 12 November 1910, Page 5

FIVE MILLION LOAN.

UNDERWRITING PROCEEDING IN LONDON. INFORMATION REFUSED "A SLUR ON PARLIAMENT." HOT DEBATE. TWO INTERESTING DIVISIONS, The following Press Association cable, gram dated November 10, has been r<* ceived from London:— Underwriting is proceeding■/" in connection with the issue of five millions' worth'of New Zealand bonds at convertible into three arid a halfs inscribed stock m 1914. Existing• three/ and a halfs have fallen to 97."

The committal of the New Zealand Loans Amendment Bill in the House of Representatives last night was ' taken advantage of by Mr. Massey (Leader of the Opposition) to ask the Prima Minister to give the House and t-hs country a Statement with reference to the above cable. Sir Joseph Ward interject , ra thcr surprised that vou snould ask such a question. If I felt it proper to make such a statement I would have done so." Mr. Massey went on to say that ha was askmg the question, and it was for (sir Joseph to say whether he felt/inclmed to answer it. Ho hoped ho would answer the question. * _ Sir Joseph said that he was not gofg discuss an important financial transaction publicly at the present time tor the Leader of the Opposition or anybody except to say that so far as the financial matters in connectionwith this country were , concerned they were being well and properly attended to.. He was responsible in the matter.and he would lot the House" and, tha country know at the proper time. "Common Talk." Mr. Herries asked if members wero to understand that the Prime -Minister: refused to give any information to the House about a matter which was common talk in the public, press. , Sir Joseph: It is not common talk.'' lou, are me- to do something that would be improper. • Mr Hemes: Perliaps the information should not have been given to the press? . - 1 ;■

Sir Joseph: I did.not give it. V: - Mr. Herries: It must be . common taJk m London. A prospectus must have been issued by the Government. Ihe people here, were entitled to know as muclras .the'people'. at Home .knew, if the Prime Minister, did not- choose to answer, of course they could , not niako him. It would be a slur on Parliament, whiclr was supposed to control the monetary transactions of thiscoua-

The Prime Minister declared that' ho was not going to allow a statement of the kind, to go unnoticed. The slur was on those members who asked that:he should be put in the position at this end of the world of disclosing con'fidential matters. <

Mr. Herries: It can't be confidential if it is in the paper. Sir Joseph: I am. not} .responsible * for • what appears in the..papers. I-am''re-' sponsible for the duties."of the position which J. hold. I am-not going, at. the instigation, of the Leader of. the Opposition or anyone else, to discuss the financial operations, of this.country in London at tlio present moment, but I time 3S VB Said ' d ° 50 ' at: tte proper

Mr. J. Allen (Bruce) pointed out that tho Prime Minister was not asked to disclose any confidential matter Ho was simply asked -whether the cable was correct or any: transaction was going on or not. If the information should go out to the people in London it should be available to the representatives of the people in Jiew Zealand. ' . Sir Joseph: I say that at the proper time 3nd 111 the ordinary course of fellings I will tell-the House anything' and everything about: the subject.;: I am not in consequence of the" cable going to make a statement before the' proper time. From the point ,of view-' of the country the financial arrange-/ ments were in . every way satisfactory.\: Quite a Natural Question. ■Mr. I'raser (Wakatipu) said it- "was ' very evident; from what ' tho Prime' Minister had said that,he was conduct-/ mg operations for tho 'floating of a loan in London. The House had given him authority-to borrow,. and ho' also had statutory. It was, he held quite a natural question for the Leader ot.the Opposition to . ask. whether tho information was correct or not. • 'Ho did not see any necessity for any heat on the part of tho Prime Minister. They were not asking him to' disclose 1 any private or confidential transactions that had taken place.. "I," added Mr.Fraser, "am quite satisfied from his' reply that he is negotiating a loan. There is no doubt of that, and when' the-Public Works Statement conies down weshalj ! no doubt be told about it." ' ' - Sir Joseph-Ward: I was not asked' that question. ~: - i Air. I'Yascr: I am stating the fact.: •i S ii Tery , ev .Went from what ho has said that ho is doing so. : ■ 1., think tho question asked by tho .Leader of . the' Opposition is a perfectly legitimate, one. Ho was asked whether what is in the paper is a correct statement of: what . is occurring in London. , H© might have given an answer to it without ' displaying tho heat, he did, .; Too Much Mystery. >: c ' Mr. Massoy: 1 regret. exceedingly that tho right lion, gentleman appears : to liavo lost his temper over the asking, of what is a very simple question. ; He said ho would tell us at tho .proper' time. When is tho proper time? Ib' it next financial year; or tho' ono after?

I should say;from what has transpired :. in tho past that we are not likely to get it till tho latter. That'is if ho',-, follows his former course. Thtfro is far too much mystery about our' financial operations. It would be better for him if there wore less.. Tknow bo.hasauthority for raising £s,ooo,ooo—more' thaii £s,ooo,ooo—and when a cablo '• comes along such as this then the people - of this country should know 1 whether v ho has placed a loan or whether ho is negotiating a loan at the present mb-.' : ment. We want ,to know, and wo' aro ",i entitled to know,- as the representatives of the people, because we have our responsibilities as such. Sir Joseph Ward said he wished oncemore to tell tho Committee that as far as he was personally concerned he had ' : no earthly, object, in not-telling 'over,ything about what .was going on in New : ; Zealand or elsewhere regarding. the ' , Dominion, but he recognised his'rcspoiisibility in connection with important financial transactions. If ho wore to do what the Leader of the Opposition . asked— . _ ; Mr. Masse;: What are we asking? ;; Sir Joseph Ward: You are asking 1110 to give information beforc_ I should, do so—before I am in a position to do so, and before it is proper to do so except . by losing the confidence of every nun of financial standing in the Old Country, and who would conclude that I-nm"

"woto to do so, I am' hot* going to dis- . ' cuss matters-of a confidential naturo wen if tho hon. gentleman may say I am out of temper or- anything, else, and iif I were asked I would give the same (information again. ,1 was- told it was la slur upon the country. Mr: Herries : No ; a slur upon Par- ..." 'liament. . Sir Joseph Ward:-I say it is a slur tipon any member who asksiirie to do it. Mr. Divo (Egmont) said ho had a motion on the Order Paper asking for information about loans, but the information was reifused— The Prime Minister said it was out . of order to refer to a question on the Order' Paper. He advised the' hon. gentleman to look after his position'as a representative of tho people, and-ho : (Sir Joseph) would look after his. Ho was hot going to give the information. Mr. Divo: I wish to inform the . . , House that, if members' were all built 'like me they would very soon get the information. . Sir "Joseph Ward: Well, I'm afraid you would crack yourself up first. A Proposed Clause. Almost immediately after this incis . dent had closed.Mr. J. Allen (Bruce) moved that a now clause be added to . Bill as follows:— : "Particulars of- the terms upon which loaus are floated, together : ■ with all costs and expenses of rais- . :ing . same, shall b? laid before Parliament within, twelve months of the floating of the same." Mr. Allen said Parliament Was en- ; titled to the particulars mentioned ,in ; bis" amendment. ". . . Sir .Joseph-Ward: If the hon. gentle- ,. piiah thinks he is going to lead me by the ear he is mistaken. Mr. Allen: I am going to movo this clause at any rate, and-the House can decide. 'Mr. Allen complained that the . . . House, could not get information until four years after the loans were raised. (Returns had been asked for and they had been consistently, blocked. The House was entitled to these particulars iwhich would not interfere with financial . arrangements. ' >

Mr. Massey said he. would like to think , that a ."majority of members would agree to the clause. There could be not the slightest doubt in the minds of those who knew how our financial operations had been conducted that this information]should be given. Those on the Opposition side had the greatest .■ difficulty in obtaining . any information with regard' to the loans that had been placed on : the London market: Ques-tion-after question had been asked and return, after .return asked for and they got nothing, but the evasive replies they Iliad had that night. He had asked a simple,- courteous, and direct question wliicli should liavev been answered, and could have been answered in three words. ,The question was,simply whether ..the Treasurer had.placed a loan of five millions on the London market.

Sir Joseph Ward: That was not the . guestion. ;. . Mr. Massey':. I'read, the cable and I ,asked,'you-to: .explain it. . Continuing, Mt. Massey said the Prime Minister could have replied ho-had placed a loan in; London and . had done it under the authority of Parliament.. He'' had authority to raise five millions or more. Ho (Mr". Massey) did not know' whether 'the. time- was' .opportune, he did . not know, what, tlie .prospects.";of the loan were. All'that was required , was that the .Prime Minister, should have said he was Taisirig a loan. \ i A Protest.' -''

Mr. Massey protested against the, want of courtesy shown by the Prime , Minister to Mr. Dive who l;ad a right to "call attention to tho fact that lie had asked to get information and had been refused. Tho reply and manner of the 'lion, gentleman were.not worthy of the position ho occupied,* and he "(Mr. Massey) regretted ■ exceedingly to notice it. Nothing was to be gained by that sort of thing. The , Opposition treated the hon. gentleman with courtesy and expected courtesy in return. That, was a position that would not; be appreciated by lion, gentlemen on the other side of the House who . were interrupting. A division would j be taken on this clause, and if members cared to vote against it and show they were content with the treatment they received, the responsibility was theirs. * " '

Sir Joseph Ward: I want to deal with one remark of the hon.' gentleman that the financial, operations of {his country have not been satisfactory. • Mr. Fxaslr: He said satisfactorily explained.' -V : :y. v, Sir.Josenh: Ho said-the financial operations. were not being satisfactorily conducted. • Mr. Massoy: Ah, nowl - ' A Challenge. Sir Joseph: I am not a . boasting man, but . I challenge the hon. gentleman to name one financial operation conducted in this country that has not been a success. . Mr. Massoy: I will :tell you one. Sir- Joseph Ward: The hon gentlemen can generalise, but 'they can point' to no mistakes made in connection with financial operations by me. Continuing, Sir Joseph said it was once a' hue and cry that the Government' was. afraid/to.'put Mr. Massey tn the Public. Accounts Committee. He had. now* been, on ■ the Committee for two sessions',. and had anyone heard a word to'justify.the hue and cry? ■ Mr. Heidman-: These operations do • not- come before the Committee. '

Sir Joseph (continuing)! said he was ;' not ;going- to take part in the discus- . sion; on ethics beyond saying he was responsible for, his own conduct.. If members wanted to they could stand up and say. they were refused informa- " ,tion>but:he was not going to sitdown ,; arid, take'that sort of thing. The men- . l»r-for Egmont looked better for the little-castigation he had received. In , V regard, to the amendment that had been • moved, to-morrow .morning they would see the megaphone of the Opposition -recording,, the sentiments of the Leader of the Opposition with a few embellishments in " the way of leader- : etfces that sometimes_ came from a member of. the Opposition. Sir . Joseph went on to say that Mr. 'Allen proposed to ask the House to put him in the- position that he could go back to. the wilds of Bruce Mr. Allen: Be careful I | Sir. Joseph: And tell the people in ■ his constituency,-who were a very fine lot of people, though they make a mistake in .the man they returned to Parliament. Mr. Dive: They pj-e the'best judges. (Hear, hear.) . Sir Joseph: The best judges some.times,make a mistake.. The people of . -Elthanv made a terrible mistake when they returned the sitting member. (Laughter.) . "A Piece of Oflensiveness," ■ , Continuing, Sir Joseph said that Mr. , 'Allen did wrong in trying to have an amendment of that nature put in the Bill. He. had always informed the House- as to the financial position of ■ the country. No other Treasurer had given the . House so much detail in this regard. It did not matter what the House did; so far as the Government "was concerned, . everything was above iV''board. ' : The amendment could only be -.'regarded as a piece of oflensiveness. ■ Mr. Allen: I am surprised—— ■ Sir Joseph: Political oflensiveness is "what- I mean. . . Allen (Bruce) said that the ques- • tion was a simple one. Should the people know the details , of a loan : .twelve months lifter it was raised? If '' members thought so they should support his proposal. He did noV know • why-the Premier did not accept it. It ' woiil-1: appear , that he, was to ' acbepi any proposal from the Opposi- ■ rtion. Lu various ; statutes it was pro-1

'should" be 1 -given to Parliament at stated times. Two Divisions. / Upon a division the clause was rejected, by 45 votes to 27. For the Clause (27). Allen • Jennings Anderson Lang Bollard Malcolm Buchanan Mandor Buick Massey Dive Npwman Duncan, J. Nosworthy Fisher.. , Okcy Fraser ' Pearce Guthrie Phillipps Hardy Rhodes Herdman Scoti Herries Wright Hino Against the Clause ;45). • Arnold Macdonald Brown M'Kenzic, R. Buddo Mackenzie, T. Carroll M'Laren Clark > Millar Oraigie Myers Davey iNgata Dillon Poland Duncan, T. Parata Ell Poole Field Rangihiroa Forbes Reed. Glover Ross Graham ■. ■ Russell Greenslade Sidey Hall Seddon . Hanan - Smith Hogan Stalhvorthy Hogg Steward Kaihau Taylor, E. H. Laurenson Ward Lawry • Witty Luke '

Mr. Herdman (Wellington North) then moved a new clause to the effect that all details of loans should be supplied to. Parliament within two years of the date of flotation. Ho pointed out that Government members had just voted, against a proposal that tho particulars should be supplied within one year. It would bo interesting to see how Government members would vote I on'his' proposal. . The clause was rejected by 44 votes to 28. For the Clausa_(2B)'i Allen, Anderson, Bollard, Buchanan, Buick, Dive, J. Duncan, Fisher, Fraser, Greenslade, Guthrie, Hardy, Herdman, Herries, Hine, Jennings, Lang, Malcolm, Mander, Massey, Newman, Nosworthy, Okcy, Pearoe, Phillipps, Rhodes, Scott, Wright. Against the Clause (44). Arnold, Brown, Buddo, Carrol], Cr'aigie, Davey, Dillon, Hoii. Duncan, Ell, Field, Forbes, Glover, Graham, Hall, Hanan, Hogan, Hogg, Kailiau, Laurenson, Lawry, Luke, ilacdonald, R. M'Kenzie, T. Mackenzie', M'Laren, Millar, Myers, Ngata, Parata, Poland, Poole, Rangihiroa, lieed, Ross, Russell, Seddon, Sidey, ..Smith, Stallworthy, Steward, B. H. Taylor, T. E. Taylor, Ward,' Witty. . •■■■

Speaking on the third reading of the measure, the Prime Minister said that the motions which Mad been moved by Mr. Allen and Mr. Herdman would bo of no material advantage, to the Opposition. He reiterated that the present was. not the proper time for hiin to give the information sought! vpiunging Proclivities." . Mr. Massey declared that he was perfectly within his rights in asking for some information as. to. what was going 'on in London. The' reply he had received was neither courteous nor satisfactory.' He might-say that' he was astonished.when he read that a loan/of £5,000,000 was being raised. It was to be regretted that our 3i per cent, stock had dropped 30s. despite the fact that interest'was due next- January. This could not be unexpected- iii view of the plunging proclivities of the Government. . The Hon. T. Mackenzie: That will help tliie -country a. lot. , Mr..Massey: It is my business to keep the Government'as' straight as I can.Continuing, Mr. Massey. said that during the session authority had been given for tho raising of £6,530,000. Mr. -Hogan: Which loan did you oppose? -

Mr. Massey: I don't oppose borrowing. What I say is that the Government's policy of borrowing is wrong. It is attempting to borrow for the local bodies and everybody as well as the country. If the Government would endeavour to secure'the return of confidence, and. encourage private enterprise it would be doing the proper thing. Then it would not be, necessary to go on the market as was being done. Sir Joseph Ward declared that Mr. Mpsscy's remarks were ill-judged. It might be that in the morning the statements made by Mr. Massoy would appear in London papers. His remarks might have been mado with a view to publication. Everybody would realise that Mr. Massey's speech, whatever the intention—he would not attribute any motive —was calculated to do a lot of harm to this country. He was unable to understand how it was that ' Mr. Massey did not see that his remarks were inopportune. The .idea was apparently to create the impression that our financial system was unsound. There was no further . discussion' on the subject, arid the Bill was passed. ' STATEMENT BY THE PREMIER. SOME DETAILS. ; Late last night the Prime Minister informed the House that 1 he could make a statement with, reference ,to tlio fivo million loan which' he gave authority should bo raised in London a short time ago. In the afternoon he had not the necessary particulars. That evening, however, he had received a cable from the High Commissioner giving information which he was now at liberty to use. The reason why he, could not make the statement before was that of necessity the whole of the preliminaries in regard to the raising of a loan were always confidential for a time and that must be so. Until the whole of these arrangements had been carried out 110 statement could be made by him concerning them. If 110 did it would be looked upon as a grossly improper thing by others concerned. He might relieve the minds-of members by saying that the loan was a 3} per. cent loan and the price was £98 10s., and it was underwritten. (Hear, hears.) A little later on ho would give a further statement. .He said the other day that ho did not leave the financial matters of the country to chance. All the arrangements had been properly made. If the cable had not come to hand he would not have been able to.say anything for some days.

Mr. Herrios: How did the papers get Sir Joseph: I don't, think if you were mo you would inquire. Air. Herrios: l)id they get it from the AgcritGeneral's office? ■ Sir Joseph: Certainly not.. Mr.' Massey made an inaudible remark. Sir Joseph: I heard it. You were referring to a lobby statement. Independent of the cable I could not have made a statement. , I am .not responsible for what the press say. For instance the rate given in the press was £89 10s. • . Mr. Massey: I did not put it that way, and what is more a correction appeared.. Sir Joseph wont on to say that the editor of the evening papor had sent a copy. of the cable to him, but all the information lie could give was that the price ; was £9S 10s. It was liis correction. . • Mr. Massey:. Anybody would know it was a mistake* ■

saiatfiai> licvhappened" to know that an Australian paper had made an inquiry about the matter that day. There was nothing in all the talk about mystery. The position was that lie had to respect confidence. A FURTHER STATEMENT. In a statement to the House early this morning, Sir Joseph Ward mentioned that the loan had been underwritten at £08 10s. on similar conditions to the last loan floated by New Zealand. The bonds are issued at a minimum of four years, and the holders liavo the option of converting at £102. Tho following are the purposes for which tho loan is being raised: — \ Advances to settlers £1,500,000 Advances to workers 500,000 Naval Defenco Loan 1,000,000 Public Works 1,750,000 Land settlement 250,000 Total £5,000,000 Sir , Joseph Ward added that there was no portion of the authorised advances to sottlers loan raised last year, and that explained the item of £1,500,000 in this loan. He said that it was an exceedingly satisfactory loan, and one had every reason to be thoroughly satisfied with it. Tho fact of a large loan of £5,000,000 being readily underwritten at £08 10s. showed that our country stood high in the estimation of the leading financiers of England. LOANS AUTHORISED. TOTAL OVER SIX AND A HALF MILLIONS. Speaking on tho New Zealand Loans Amendment Bill last night, Mr. Massey gave the details of the authorisations for borrowing tliis session. They were as follow: — £ For Public Works 1,750,000 Hutt Railway 35,000 Working Railways 225,000 Water power 500,000 Advances to settlers 1,500,000 Advances. to workers - 500,000 For mining advances 20,000 Loans to local authorities 1,000,000 Land settlement ...! ~.. 500,000 Native land settlement 500,000 Total <£6,530,000