DOMINION'S DEFENCE FORCES

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 929, 23 September 1910, Page 6

DOMINION'S DEFENCE FORCES

qovernmento, mjoposju& CXPLAINED BY THE PR'jiE MINISTER NEW METHOD OF BEiSTMIfa. ;■ THE BILL CRITICISED BY M. J.VALLE-N-

£■ vv .' /The/Defence,Bill'; was the subject of an :':?; 1 -V.'intepe^l]iß.ydUsc^si6n:!in i .'.tho-.yHoure-'..-.'of f'x Sßepresehtatives yesterday.';."..- ;' /; i; ; /The/ Prime ■Minister, said/that the ob;';'.:ject of the Bill wasi to give effect to the ?;: U.recbniniehdations made, by,/ Lord ; Kitch'-. respori-' ;^:-.- : ;. ; v;:':V/>fficiency,-;.-diul- training';, of -the .-defence; ;.;i:.foreesVof .-In 'connection ;;•!■:■ the'. forces-', it'.wass; proposed, t0../ ap-; -S '■■''ftmiP:fc-- : stipendiary : 'magistrate; ;:in /'//-' or - near -'the' 'areas -.concerned;: and -'<• 'three-.y- J-P.'s,. .orw:;bther '■;■;local -//au- >■■■: - thorities,' to /meet:the/area officers,. and t--'-they 'would:be"entrusted .with.'a system pi asMagaiist xqt !•';'"' : ballot under the '. present. Act.-;: By .xegu-. i * ::lation : :"it was,--proposed-", to ; exempt, persons rS- medically 'br' physically unfit; :> those who &.-. bad- qualified- 1 as officers, or instructors of ■A Wr the /senior, and' junior: cadets whilst 'they '.--; 1 ' occupied--those:positions;: members,;of,-;the, ■.v sole -support of ; :/a/family,-those//: in-; :;'.■:/' capable/of earning .'their' living,; those'who' ';;.'■■-■ been '•: convicted--' of:' any.i disgraceful :-v.'orime, and;'those:found guilty, by,a ■court, K' : vVof justice bf ; being notorious,bad charac--:;..-V-ters.•-■'■ In peace: time, all persons residingvin •specified-' areas."might - -be-f-exempted; ■ ..-' :■ Officers and -men! on-'reaching ■.. the -. age. of who : have'leit-tHe territorials,':would K 'v.'eerve.: in the ./'reserve, i for,' five.' years, runtit age :• of / 30'/years. ;>'-4vr6uld'\l»-a J .:pEoyisb- to tb> effect, that-ot- : , :t 'isficers'aiid! senior /non-commissioned": officers ';-fi- 'might cbntinub' in/'th'o'temforials: until: /ft-; they ;feach:'thoVageUftr': retirement, ironi; which■ltter;hol(l.;./^^t i v.-;-:.;-p|fi-,! : £ : ;fl'^ ; .1 ■-:■'-;' V'The'':foTce''-is;'to-; be' : maintained-by. -an a/z/'annuai/'quota/ selected l-e:' i rbin ■ the - general; training .section. '■ ,Dur:, year ■'• the' "quota-: would tfhe; H'V selected"' rrbih.;- among tt&ose'' A/between ;;18 ; ;'■ to "enable 'LbrdyKitchencr's :j pro-.-J ; :K - posal to": be '-given effect to .'ivith: as s:i/\;:;ueiay;'as:-.'■ possible'.'; -:Aiter v that.- the/vre-v : "'^'quired/quota.:tbVm'aintoin/.'the;force-would. :- : -:>be' derived' :from -among;:: thbsd'betvyeeh;:lß :(;:';'■and/19; 'except; in ! i:-unfbreseen;;';circum- : I ; might-vbe.; necessary ;fttp: them 'frop.V; among'thbse ; ;up>to: the '-:V' : i territorials were-- to'. nilm'berTM.OOO, of-all f' voluntarily; /enlisted -. to ■ ! i- ': > 'be:-transferred 7 ;to ;theireseryeratter,- three '-/.::• :years'-;lTainingr:i : 'But:-njider/-"tliis v ßiU' ; the' 'ft'- total' number). v including CM::i^lo:in^the ; firs't.:year'in-theVreserves;f, ; Of: 4 hithe number ■between* 18iand ; 19;-(340(i, 3600 ;:S for., the' ;s : .• iei ritorial';';ForcV,V!'aiid: : |,-would;:bo-,-.lTtoed,; >';;:.i-;exemptibn ; apply to 'iV-vihehi ::^ : ; :'exc'ept"v f:™: ■' i : 'tli 6 -;■ ;-/case.-; -}-eoi ■ ':©fphysick : 'vuniithesS: : Slin : i there-:/- to.-; tenable, : - /;, thoseZ-übt"'-.required-: eabh'/yeai/ijfori/.the; /^/i'-'/quota/up^^S/tovbe/liable/to,be treat'ed-:/-Kin-the general -training section.'-:' Ayhereas, :'':'l\vunder/ithe Actoi'of^lOOSvthe:/number/;of //'.-'.'liieh.;-liable'/fori/tradaingV-was-"30,000, ithe i < v-'total /'liable;: iinder i'the'' neiv'; ;Bill,;>as /hot' >?'fl : :less' than - 75;096i7'in61usive;bf :'the ; ;exeinp-' v?-ifrtions:';vK:,the,-calculation of?exemptions'; ///-'"-.on -the "Continent, / 40/per'cent,! wasVusually:. ' i //:'' : :ft:/fdr-/service: : obtained.;- In/NewiZea-, / / vrland;< it .'.would ;be, /'.;;''/;'6afe:to;put;itat.33\l-3 per';cent,:vSb'that: :-;vs:frbm:; the/totalqbf;;.7S,o96-': thiey// W6uld;:iie-: ■.-jKquire to;''deduot ! 2s,ooo,'.'leavihg a-net/to :'V-s'of :50i0u6/dpprosimatery.-// ':?. : .-::X:M'r'~:'4h /';

.; ;/;-i'.'LJ 1916 officers imd' 4:-//raidc/Vand :iUe, ab>U^ S*-ritbrials4anjdv,w^ .(I?/the' :> reserw^after //undergoing; training: VVi'would;;i» :.10,375^^.flivadditioii;'to^that;.. >-;:« 'allowing* for?:.thoseXwhb/we're/physically. : ;. vj'nnfit'v ; therb r would /be' 'a- fotal ; .of.by ; er/, ; 5000 / :•■"::•■'(of the"'lß!io'l?', nave /i/'/iUhdergone'^that^yea^ p;//i general!; draining •; section,*. /.which'; ; in '/ six " -v: .'yea-re!<would/ give. a ';to,ta/l. of over^^MO, -fS:^Lpaft-:from:.tlose ; .tp;'.wkom^ ■!'■;/-been/ alluding 'iff-; the-general; training /sec-;;. '',p. 4.ti«a£-.rlerei.were: "the i : members /ofyrifle' • ; .'SolnteiJ:,who;itotalled/3iiV' : and-be ; might; ;■!■, '//bay /.that ;'he> anticipated/.that'-their.:num-.' :!v<bers '/ would/-- betlai^ely'Mn'cieasedJby-'the ."• V;*) addition 'of- men- 1 who_>lTad 'completed < their }' r {general;training;,:The:senior cade.ts''hum-, yiSbered'' <1109// at and'-there^werb. t/^3S,2sl;^Ms-iof^ftat ; :age' ; foi; training," as ;. ''by. cadets:-'lt.^^waS'propbsM.tha't;the number, ■'.' training-should 'be'.'increased -to-; 35,000,-. i'.'V.unfit.:*;There 'would!be:'an .amendment in i ■///"the ■'law relating..' to;- boy. : Ecouts; He :■ 'pro'-. -?'>;po%d jthatrthey/'sho.uld 'retain ".their/;de-/ : !•>./•agnation',"'-.but: ,'bfl;..required//tb.:; conform ■>';'•:with'the training:provided for_seriior'uitl .:;,'-'junior j cadets,v.whils%:/;in:/addition; : : they •: b"■■:'}. might //'ccnitinub'ito. y.yrwprt/-'-. ; ; : .compnl66i7;;iraihing: : ''fpr; '/'' '^youths l 'between! 12'.and'18,-it. w^- : notVof; :;5 i Eo'.much" irapOT.tance': in-New'.-Zealqnd!Yto' ;vVvtry and' keepi/them;: separate.'. .They/would ■'', : :f|'r^rii , re'Vtt\6bm'© : 'underi:a' , .;-.Y.struction* and /classification; /among -the 4;':> cadets.,- If; that:: wpre/'-hot-; dbne/.'.the :ladsi ;.i:: : might,'/.by"joining 1 - tho/scontej-evade//the! '//'•'lequiremente-under the 'law dealing '-with' ::^)the./;cadets.,/v./;:/ ~:K':i:'I:: : : /'/!//:,-/,:.,;;!;'/■:;'/' : ''- -::;:.*|::/ ■T;::/'-AWord);as/to/Tralning;;:' : - v :''/J;V.' • The .'period .of.. ltraining : for r'the .fcrfcr ! /-Vcadels/wouldibe :52/ hours, ; ;and/:fbr! ; uhb . ! :-senior,-cadets, 61 iours..: Bipenehce, show-: ...:"',; 'ied that: exercises' too -long sustained.' were: ';0. : -:iiijuriqu«'-.'for'.'cadet8;; The tiriie/would be hours/for. a, day, -2; hours ///!;:for,/a/half,', day,, and-'l/hour-for /aVdrill.- ;' la // the/, compulsory/training; .blasses: /the •-jVi..mea-^ould.V.tfain\^ior;-14/days^ahd- : l2.''.]ial£ . // ':> ■ days between 18 and' 19; ana be held -liable ::./■;for /drill :'■ till - 25.-.The training- 'foriv the <}i -;■ territorials'' wpuW'.'/be.' by .regulation //to //> wr^orm/'m ■'-//! '■ Kitchenbr. /il-'rovision 'woiild !be;made for, ', . /the- payment - of ./capitation, io corps '.'in-. /;//:s6tead:pf:/t6;bach/ company.; This ■ was'to! / ,4enable/'the: formation of ai/souhd. regir"/^mental.',:and ./battalion- organisation'-.,and /. '/, more/economical '-feangomentß./'for'ysup; /;: .plies///In/Committee": he;'would ask- the :'.',-/House': to supersede- the .present; method "discipline. /' Undei-/.Clause ,10 /;'.it was- proposed to se.t.:;up . a. board:.to '/;,'- : .which : :matters. could: be preferred, but it ■'- :,/was now proposed• to: adopt.the English . :systeini. (Hear, hears.) Thb discipline ~ /-under;-the principal .-Act was ;to" bo ; /ex r .'//tended'to 'bring all /officers, at all ; times :., :under v military:law; 'and' to', include thb. : (rank: and file'when/attending'drills /and ■.':: exercises,:,' and : : going. :-.to/ -and returning :: :;froin-;them;. The principal., Act applied to 'the- military- law. during active ..service ■ /'arid;; camp - servico.:. :'■ It / should bo; made , - ,- to -apply: to - all .drills and /exercises -as . - well.. Tjbat.would-.enable the Home;system of general.' and ; district' ; courts martial // to: :be 'adopted../ It- would, be necessary ..'to Appoint : a:, judge 'Allvocate-Geheral, .who .would,.be stationed//in : Wellington- : ■ and deputies in!-the other. - three' centres. ;' .The- duties : of this officer would,- bo. to . see that all charges were properly made, -- and examine the findings and punishment ..'imposed -by -a. Court' before ,they took '-■ - effects . When ho attended the Court, .''■ v. both/parties were.to.have the use of his :- services, on legal points, ."■ ; r :/:' 'Question of Appeals. : , ' In .peace times :,law, wonld.be. /.nndef.,civil:-law, and appeals could be ,'made .to :the higher: civil courts. This ..'/did awny -with the Appeal. Board mentioned in--.Clause. 10. ..The Judge Advocate-■-General'would require: to ,bo an;pfficer ..." with a thorough -military training, and • of'high standing and .-.'considerable .".-Im--'.'.-penal or local military training. 'The scheme would cost £100,000 a year: when completed-i3oo,ouo..:'for/".'the.' first .year, ;■:.£350,000.f0r the "second.year, and £400,000 '..- -'each .year . :aftorwards. ; In/! .addition, ■',',:£150,000 would, be required . for .extra military. equipment,/spread over three

} years. He might; mention that the proportion, of: equipment for,- the- first, year nad, already been; ordered i'rpin- Home. In- regard to the areas for training, ho howd that before long they-would .be ready. To 'enable the latest' system to be carried out in regard' to' them,,: the High, Commissioner .had 'been, instructed to obtain- from /the War/.authorities the latest model- in.; connection with, areas of a similar class. Wheh';it'arrived the work would be carried, on to completion without delay.' •■ It would be difficult to. /estimate;; the; ..tiine - that' would ~' be'..' re- ■ quired'ih'-corinectioh.with, tiie transition 'stage ; 'from;.the"'old to the new order. The .operation of registration in the/ varioiis_ -areas ;svould.".be:;completed by;.-June,'; 1911," when /the /.selection:.of; the quota: necessary. :to' merge -the /territorials/into the : new establishment would be finished, and then the', necessary organisation;/ as the outcome.' would.; be,' made.;' During the period of: transition,..the:;affairsi-of. each unit .-.-were:'to. ,' ; be ..gone' -into'. ..with ,'a ;.': :.yiew. ; ,;, to .;•.: m aking. ;i //some,-,../ arrange-' meht'/as/-'to'-;'dealing ' :with : " their ~lia-; ;biUtiesiprior:...to£:being;, recruited-, 'to the iiew establishment. .: He believed .that his-original.:proposal.that-.the/conhtry should take over'the whole of. the .-assets'. o£ all-companies'-was, the right one,; and; he. regretted that' the.House,;had. not adopted it. . As the: territorials were to -be ..of- aP.ermanent ; -character, l '-it ".would be'better for;all'cohcerhed.- : >Even'-now 'the matter should; be/put-right.' /The', whole/ scheme ■would" be,..-well.iinder' .way -by-'.. 1913, • and; . would Jw',' in, full/yprking, .prder.;' by.;li)lG./ y' '•'.:",;',:'jn":Full: jOperatibni;;lti^i9t6.''■"■ /

: 'Y.Coitinu'.iiig,.:'Sir.^'^osepK;'-'-sVar.d:.' ; said!. it, was: impossible .to, .bring, in a: nevr. scheme in./a:. year/or two. . In '-Australia -their newforce/was not to -be' in' full operation, -until '1920/ / so,: : 'perhaps, 'J the,; Leader of, the: Opposition' might" ask .them -why, theywere, so slow -there;!. '■'■■] '; '': v ;; /•''.'[:' I'-'-.Mrv. Massey: Did.you/say.l92o?■','. .'-',-'■. ./[Sir; Joseph:: ;Yes.,-; : [.; ; /;:;.;.,/' /-'■'-//■/, '.T;Mr..: Massey,:a'Theii '. youV , had/".better look, again./ Mr,'Massey /quoted from a speech;' by[A Senator: Pearce - to,: show" i that a; /large, ,'fqrce; would: be; available l in; Aus- ; tralia/in [.1918.; ;::■,/: '/".j"--"/';/ '■: ,V.', Si r: Joseph said, that : ,in -.any'.case we [compared favourablyi as',6ur [scheme ;.would be/in. operation.in -1913. ;;;.;■;/ ,'-u. ■::.-■:■ ';,::; .;'."'Mr.'-" -Massey:: Yes,: 'but /we,' want •'. only. ,20,000 "men,.: and'..they "want,'lso,ooo.:: ... /'(/ Sir Joseph. Ward:' Yes,[but Sve want the : thing, done properly,: 'ahd-'in /a' /matter "such/ as,; this .we: 7 .cannot; The', 'schenie -.would.';be.-;in; full.:operation:.'.in 1913/) Sir Joseph ''/..added;;;, and!, .would be :.fully. ! established; in 1916, "in .-Ails-; .traliavit"would..hot,;bo;.ih';full /force -till ,1920;/:Siri; Joseph /Ward.proceed.ed. tci-com-; ipare -the systems to be.'.instituted;in -Aus-; /traliai arid/Now,-Zealand, in a .number' of ii^spieets.';-;;'. ; The; : vAct; : _:wasv'to.'.come .into /operation; in ..Australia; in[/;.191l!, here it , iWas/'already-'in/ operation. 'In;,Australia'.! [uniforms [were tob'o supplied, by the .Gov-- | eminent;; ,in;;.New;'/Zealand : :'..:'we: •■• would 'supply;capitation m : and;eventually ; ,uni-. forms,' in,,lieu of;capitation.-; ;"In-.'-:Aiis-' . tralia ■' the [present-.- f orce[ was not, to-be' extinguished, for:.-some time/.'[ln [New/ &ea-.: ; land 'thevpresent / force", was;" to) be .'iriergea [as 'soon as ./possible, after- the 'registration ;was *MmpletedK :/>Ih | :4Neiv; "Zealand/, the ; registration'., was': to/'[include 'the /'ages .17.' .to '25./ Lord. Kitchener,' had-.strongly, re--1 commended, (the: 'quota;, system -.. for' /this [country,- and; the /recommendation/of., tho : ■ A[dmiralty" :,a't' the'; Defence : Conference .in; J[jondpn-,was .that; the-maximuhi -for, .times, .-of/'activityMn.'NeTV-'-Zealand. l should; be 30,000,,' and : the ; maximum:for times, other: /than' war, 20,000.:-;[Ther'e[ was an"ihipres-; sioh [in /the minds.:of.,'some: people': thai-' .we ;shonld -go ,in for universal military; [training, but h6: : (Sir, Joseph) thought that [would; catise'a■ rea,ctioa,,and would'break' :down;,''„:lt//would-be, impossible■'.to bear thei [weight;of.'such'i'a/syste'm.',/,The'.men: /wore ,to receive reasonable. rTomuneratipn. for,the::time,.they[[/were;taken away.[from; ; their employment; The Tank"'.'and file'.were to "receive, a-day,-:'apart'from/>the'"cost ;of;;,their/'keep.;-: ; ':;'';:'v:^-,: ; ''/:- :'[/'m .:':■■■ [' :;V ;^';/ ; ' SThe"[, Financial; Aspect.,,/';,;';;::; [/ [' .Sir' Joseph [Ward then[ proceeded-.to/refer : : to..- the '■'[ financial, aspect',.6f [ ..the '-.'scheme; He; did',;[no[t. think; ; the^um.'/ to. be; ex-: pehded[,was. by^^ : ahy:;meahs'-'a''large-Phe/to /have established a [well-trained., territorial' system.; 1 . -The;total-amount;required ifor ;salaries.aid wages//including: salaries', for' the ''full.'equipment [of./the.commandant,' the /headquarters staff, ■ permanent [force .'officers,./'non*6mmissiohed : officers; and men of.;the':,'territorial['[staff.'f : : junior ■;'. cadet staffs, stores and magazinb:staffs—ih'fact, :; "The..-following, allowances;.-.would;;bo/ ; paid [per./day, .to territorials-'/.durihg/.the■. time -'they:: were out:—Lieutehanfcgeheral,''lss.''; major, '125.',captain, . 10s.[r.lienfenant;':8s,'.;['sergeant-, majorpandi'pth'er..: sergeants, 55:.:6d.j-[ser-geants, ss; ;'; corDorals, 45.". 6d.;v other-ranks, 4s.[:;,;This[/would;amount-ztd -per ; annumi'arid; with the-.otherifigu'res,'would make ,jE157,000' per [annum'.y.'t'o/'be, expendedfin salaries-,and'wages/'tp;■ offiijers[and !n'e'n ; -in''vconnectibnY'ffitn.\tne;SCncrfle/-''ln" addition',-[.'the'] estimate': for 1 [uniforms [was ;£30,000 a: year,: but'this/'would bo -spent in[ the/ Dominiohi and would (provide, eni'r ployment fpr'a-gopd. number-of ,poople : . :' [,-: Contihuing, ; Sir ,; Joseph :-V Ward ;■' ■ dealt again,, with , the' exemptions'" under /the: ,scJieme>-:,;He.>:[»id;'.'^he'.''to'tH | :"nnmbar'- of 'men; that /,'could'v lie;J'vdrawn- - upon - was: seventy-five /.thousand.-:'; The 'number , ,re-'quired'-for.' 'the-^Territorial ; [ Force. ; each year..would be 3690;, or approximately four [tlipusaiidj •',- and the number.•'. available eai ["', year/would be-ten thousand. ; Alloiring 50 -per cent' for [legal exemptions,', which was the,.. German standard,-; there; remained five.'.thousand, ;'o'r one/' thousand more" than/required!:. . The ; terri:x)rials, together with the 'other branches he had enumerated, brought- the':'total. lip to .40,375.;; If;-only 33.1-3. per: cent'were' allowed' for'/ legal exemptions,' [the number of'.. men available each, year [would, be. 6700,and:we onlyrequired '4000;'■.-."■■•.. , ". Mr.'; Allen:■ How .'are youvgoihg-'to deal with the balance?,.'';■ ,'•';.:/:; ,-.. ; ■ Sir Joseph .Ward said thero would be. provision' lor, training men who were not selected under/the, scheme, L and who desired'to be.selected..' --. .•'■-..,■ ~/ ': Mr. Allen: How; do you select them? ' '-. Sir. Joseph .Ward/ said- there would be a magistrate and 1 : three "justices 'of .'the peace,, or some.suitable, authority, and a system of selection; was' to ;be made by thenv .■■■ - ; ' ;;'". ; ; " -'::" : -. - --■- Mr. Massey: How is; that system to be worked?-- ;■:':-.'- : ;';;':.^. ; '.■'■'■•■■.. ; Sir Joseph Ward:; That must bo "done by regulation: You cannot put it into a Bill. " -~,.-■• Value of the "Quota" Systom. i , Sir Joseph Ward added' that Lord Kitchener had strongly impressed -upon him the advisability of introducing the quota and area systems. The objection. to selection by the,ballot system was that unsuitable men might be included and suitable men rejected. . Mr.' Allen: Is tho principle to bo physical fitness? , .. "'[.'. Sir Joseph Ward:,That'is one consideration, and r ; necessarily', an important one, Continuing in the evening, Sir Joseph said that a year after the'registration, 1912, the territorials in training would total -25,000,. and tho .'senior: cadets in training would '.number., 35,000. By 1916 the' territorials and those who''had passed through the reserve would be 40,375. Then those who had p.issol .through, tho general training' section, -5000 a.year, would total-30,000. /The grand' total by 191G (including' the senior cadets) of those who: had been trained would be 105,000. As regards the appointment pf officers, tho Commonwealth was providing that five years 'after its establishment they must be graduated in the Military College. The "selection"' committees would -have.to strike off the re-

gisters those who. wore unfit and lawlully exempt.. They . would have lo -consider those who woro best fitted, considering' tno local conditions, and'select the quota required. Thero was delay in carrying out the original scheme owing to the visit of Lord Kitchener. The 'outcome of his report was. embodied- in the Bill. New Zealand was unable to pay the rate ofsalaries for officers which Lord Kitchener recommended in tho caso of Australia. Defence matters should be kept clear of party politics. Although they wero dealing with .-.the- internal defences, it had to ,ba remembered" that New Zealand was really dependent on the British Navy. It had to ba remembered that the national and private wealth of New Zealand was .already , Mr. Fisher:.' What is .the difference in cost through' raising the compulsory ago from 21 to 25? . .'.;"■ . Sir Joseph worked it out as about .£33,000. , -..-•.'. : Mr. Fisher: What is the reason for the' change? ■•'-'■ Sir i Joseph:/■ It was felt desirable to have;the young men between l'J and 25 in,a state of military training, in view of any possible emergency: 1 feel that the people are imbued with a strong desire that this should be done. REMARKS BY MR. JAMES ALLEN.

the mcu'ot this country was one that no one would attempt to argue. The rights ot citizenship involved tho duty of assisting m tuo defence of the country, f' •A 1 • ll!ul sta - ed that ho was alraid that it looked liko as if the junior cadets were going to be turned into a innuio army. Ho did not' want iu see anything done in the creation of tne detence torco which would be a disability on •the industries of this country. He would voto against the proposal* to increaso the ago for. conmulsory service up to 2d. His opinion was that it .would bo quite safo in carrying out the proposals ■ embodied in tho Bill of 1909. If after the scheme had been in actual operation it was found that a further levy would have to be uiado by compulsion, he would not object. But why was tho crv raised before it had been demonstrated "that an increase was essential? Lord Kitchener had beon here. Thero was always a danger of giving way to tho opinion of ono man who had; obtained eminence in his profession. It might almost amount to idolatry. Civilian opinion had over and'' over again been found to be better than military opinion. He therefore regretted that-we had not first agreod to try training up t0.21- years. With regard to tho Appeal ■ Court, ho submitted that in a I democracy we had no right to allow any power to be placed above the nower of the civil courts, and Parliament.

;- THE-DUTIES OF CITIZENSHIP.--.. '. Mr. James Allen' (Bruce) prefaced his remarks by, stating that he- had never made defence a. party question. New Zealand, had .been, and rightly, committed not only to the principle of internal defence, but also- to send an expeditionary force to help the Empire at.uuy ■time. : People should not be' too narrow in their- idea, as; to the' extent to which they should' help the ;Homo Country.. Belong New -Zealand and Australia mighfj be called .upon to help the Navy in the /Pacific or- in: India. ■ A strong ariny was. needed to,complete the ;work of the Navy., He was'enurely, in accord with the. main' principle of the .Billraising the; age from 21. to 25r-but would like to criticise some of ,the details. The Defence- Council was very; properly- pro-, ■posed'.'to/be- d"ohe away with. .: He was pleased 'at the. recent appointment, ', including that of the/,commandant." .The commandant .would require a free hand, except that he should be under the icontrol of; the Minister. for. Defence, and there should'be- no: intermediary: lathe past the; country had not had .value for the money : it-had spent on : ; defence. Either the whole \ scheme.'should bo done 'away., ivithi'; or: the country .-[should' get a Ml-, return'., for'its/ expenditure.. The .balloting system, .which;was; to be, done away, with,-was the"worst possible, form of- : conscriptioh. . Selection shoiild. be' confined ~ ito the method of exemption-; through the"; medium of. exemption the Government- could do what.'it'wanted to - do without .adopting.any. selection; at all.; He/-hoped: that: the; junior cadets. were not.going to;bo niade; into,a,niimi.c army.',, The. junior, cadet .movement .should be' for-the. purpose of preparing the /hoy's. 1 They , should have ■ physical drill, - and be taught patriotism' and/a; little .shooting;, but.'nothing .more, ; except, . perhaps, 'a little; .drill;/ /.The /movement .from ; the junior/cadets to the general training'section-should- be ,'■ continuousand co-ordinate., He.-was pleased, that it was proposed;.to"-adopt the Home/court martial-system,-, in which- there -would be aj judge: advocate-general; whoso duty.; it .woiildibe to, protect the; accused, and see .that, the; proceedings were' in'•• order.' .'■'

The Right of Appeal. .The 'military spirit was, arrogant, intolerant, and dangerous, . and a trained judge was a. safeguard. Ho hoped the right of, appeal would be a real and not .an imaginary: one. He hoped that no favour or influence of any kind would be exercised in regard to appointments. He was entirely in sympathy with the principle of the Bill, but: there was too much mimicry in the proposed system. We. should take more .advantage of our natural opportunities. ■ Ho believed'the country-would increasingly, insist', upon its citizens devoting what timo was necessary for-training in defence, but ho predicted that .within three years we .would be: turning our attention to a.'defenco force. that would have the skilled rifleman as' its', principal' factor, and -which would be stripped of all-that paraphernalia that was: an imitation of other countries. As to our.' harbour, defences, ,they we'ro practically worthless,, and the money expended on them since the. Russian scare . was. sufficient to road all 'the ,backblocks of the Dominion. •; And all wo' had to show for it were some ■ obsolete forts and obsolete guns,-in'addition to .'which we hadbeen.keeping in • comparative idleness a number, of men who.wore siij]ply;a monu-; ment.;to':our foolishness in agreeing to such an expenditure.' .": .OPINIONSjOF MR.: FISHER; ■-; /Mr. .-Fisher '■ (Wellington Central) said : stages of military .hysteria; appeared to come in cycles: ..We Avere now committing the country: to.- the.. "highest •;expenditure ever : known, -and 'if; times of., depression ; came.,.the., public in.? Ho'h'oped.the Prime Minister would•;see: that: a' great' many more, of the'-big' questions; to. come..before, the House: were' made national questions, and not party,questions,' thus allowing an ex- . pression of-j';undivided-';,opinion.': Refer-' ring to the'revival; of :tfie.commandant, system, Mr.;; Fisher' said the; system 'had

been abolished; because, none of the commandants had .been allowed, a free hand. They had :been:;interfered .with, from .the time:. they got, : up. in. ; the7 morning' until they went' to .bed'^.at 1 night., From, 'the; time they .set foot 'in this country to the; , time they loft, ; ;theywere.<,reduced to an'. ; absolute state .of inefficiency,, because of - the control exercised over them. "Colonel Gbdley' would be as useless as'his.;-pre-, decessors: if the, Minister for.Defence interfered ;;,witli hinv iii lus duties.',* The, . raising, of 'the -age jfrbm .21' years 'to. 25 years was probably the, most .important proposal .in the ' Bill, '■■ The; public had not had \an opportunity of setting ' the, hall ".-mark'-."of .its '.approval:, on ;: the '-. .scheme.':. The, scheme should , bo' set'; off; in the most satisfactory.'mariner;,possible,'-. and ho thought if, the proposal, to '": increase the ago was. passed into' law "it; would raise .considerable, ■ opposition. .'.Would it.not be possible to.amend the schema; so-that those "who'were .'Under' ■ ;the';og6' of -21' at.' the' time of: the passing : lo'f the'proposal should: come..under'., the. •operations : of theßill? -Owing to the.in- I efficiency :of the;, officers—he did -'not blame ; thetn—no';military tribunal, had yet been set up, in New , Zealand: which j knew how .to conduct.' the..proceedings. ,| 1 :/;. Better Transport ;Wanted.' : There was no. use appointing- a- judge : advocatc-genernr.-if:,:.-the .-■.•'courts'-i before' •which he would havo ■ to.'appcar; were.in- • competent...The court that tried Knyvett':l .was oho of .'the most^incompetent'which had ever been, set up in.-'New 'Zealand.; The gift of 'the 'Dreadnought, meant • that .the 'whole; of tho expenditure was incur-:] red puUido,the Dominion; ;..-'',:' ,-.',' y ; Sir : Joseph: ■:Do :you suggest" it. cciuld'. have been. built;;here?' ; ;: >: ;-,;;/ ';.".■ ; : ;;Mr.;-Fisher: I have.seen you-build so: much in your-imagination'.that-1 should 'not think: thatvyou-wero incapable: of a .Dreadnought., .(Laughter,)., ;"' ;■'.. , c i Continuing. Mr. Fisher said that when.. 1 -the commandant -arrived he would' find. ■ that the methods of transport'we're quito inadequate.'. Ho would.like to seo every. , boy of 12. put through -a.'complete'- systemof development. Something/should; ■bo done to instil, into;.the'young people, , a.love: of country', which .was the real.i basis of defence;' If that ;were done, itwould, help the scheme to; a, very." great' extent. This Bill was a; great I improvement on the Bill of 1909. . .

':/ •;Effect of Training in Gormany.'; i : ■ In* regard to .capitation,; he hoped the.' iGovernment : would .'not insist/upon .'. its' proposal.' The. Government' should (take jtke. uniforming of themen .into its; own [hands. [./That would- be." the cheaper-and . [more [satisfactory!,system.'' In-'regard' /to increasing the ; age tp'2s, he hoped every nieinber. of [.the: House.,would agreed to it; ; ■i.V'lii lion, iinem.ber: Tjiey won't.':-;!..'.; : ; ";Mr/. Allen urged .this principle-hot only, frpm'.tho ppintVof.,view..of the soldier,'",but, also' .'of the.' citizen.'■".',; Everywhere,''the[ evidence: in.' favour: of .'the training, was overwhelming.,; The German nation .had. gained'•.[more,:, /men, through: their system '; [of/" training, than. : they, "had ; -lost i in; battle/;ln';.Switzerland and;' No- • ■way. tho nations had similarly benefited, land ,-• .furthermore, such countries had,') 'Benefited '"industrially as '.the: 'result 'of' ; [their military- training..There, was'no ' ;doubt.[.Lord Kitchener, .was.. r'giit': when ;he: urged- that'-wo'should train the", men t0'. : 25; :A: man-couUL not be a soldier" at -21: ; He was,' however, afraid.' the 'scheme 'of .selection 'would :bq far from-., satisf ■ factory;': and, would;' result,;in;' a" kind.['" of'; •conscription; ..Ho much preferred- the ' 'system-of exemption, ,by., class. After exempting the .unfit, "they [could' exempt, •; ;tho:railway;V servants, :.-the' Post .Office, ; ;officials,; certain Government [officers, and , some of those who .were connected.: with education.:/ VThey;:might//also : includo - some... of; tliose. who wore supplying, : i the l , ordinary.' daily,wants.of' thevpeople, such as. the butchers' and[;the; milk .suppliers; • In this '-way he ..-had brought the exemptions ;up t0'32.7. If: it: was necessary-' to • :-widen,it: still-further, 1 some other classes) could : bo-inoludedi..;' '■''■■'■':. ' ."■; ,'::,; '" >

;/; Strength: of the [Trained Forces.'; :; : ',[?ln; regard; tb.[.the'- number, of • men,; he, cpuldVnot see; the number of 20,000 "mentibned'by Sir'Joseph.-Ward: i n Kitchener's;report.:' Lord Kitchener' in his. Australian report; had stated .that [it should,:be; on .the;lines of what was recommended ;by the Imperial- Staff tinEngland.: They recommended: for [New 30,000 ; fully-trained [ : men, ' and that [of 'course.'did not include /recruits; -Ten thousarid 'for each island-was : too small a number.. -According [ to, thp: Prime •Minister's."'figures, .they,- would . have 70,000 fully-trained men; excluding cadets, by 1916. .He did not/know, how,' that number,was'.to' be got under, the. scheme. If'his "figures were right, he would, bo glad. Tho.part."of the Territorial system which- he : did [ not ".like was' a volunteer, system- alongside', a [-[.compulsory 'System. He . did hot,.see- how .they would 'run [together. .Spaing and Belgium were giving up,[the'/mixed• system,: and/ China/ ,was about":.. to ',' adopt- the ' compulsory [system alone. /'All the young men .between; :;-18 :.;[and, ,24 should, ;be trained,'; and if, tho -exemptions 'were not sufficient, •■they -could ...be / increased. ■There was a great responsibility on members in'the .matter of defence." ■:-It was:'a question■-.-.'about /which the Premier need: have'no. fear' of going to the country—that all. young, men up to .25 who .were, suitable should be. trained. The . amount - of training, that w-as proposed to :be laid down in New- Zealand was very'small compared-with the requirements of Other countries. Germany demanded two to three years of- training; Franco the same, and Australia, in. some instances,. more than . was' being required in New Zealand.,

A Word to the Young: New Zealanders. ■■Was it too, much to ask tho young men to prepare', to defend their homes and take their share, in the defence of die Empire P.- -Was 'lit too much to •' ask tho young, men' -whilst/ being' trained to give sixteen or seventeen days in camp P Was it too much to' ask them': to give ii ittlo time every year after, they had been .trained? : \\ 7 ns it too much to ask tho ■employers' to'.give them time o£F for this : He/;had: read recently that commercialism was taking.'the place of patriotism. This he did not believe. The commercial people would be only too glad to make a little sacrifice if they got good value for their money. It was, the solemn duty of every young man to give his services willing and freely. Once they realised the pleasure of their- duty, .the '. same thing would take, place as had, token place in Switzerland;. Belgium, Germany,' and - other countries. They would look upon service as an honourable thing; they would look upon it as a disgrace if'tho medical\ officer declared that they were unlit; they .would; regard it as a disgrace if through. any means .'they wore prevented from, giving, their services; and ■a great pleasure to;' do what was tho right thin? in. tho matter 'of defence. "I ufcr with the Premier in - politics," idded Mr. Allen, "but in - a matter of national importance like this, I am glad to be.able to state that I cordially agree with him, and am prepared to help, him in this matter both in the House and on the platform if necessary.-" (Loud applause.) .'■' MR. TAYLOR ON MILITARISM. Mr.; T. E. Taylor (Christchurch North) said ' that there was no difference of opinion as to the benefits to be derived from a proper course of training, either on a warship or under military ■discipline. But the question at issue was as to what systom of defence . was best adapted •' to the requirements of this country. He agreed with those who were nervous as to tho possibility of.an unwise stop being taken, The question as to the duty of

MR. HOGG OPPOSED.TO THE '■'"; SCHEME. ; , \

Mr,'Hogg ;(Mastertoh) said he'was not] •in' favour , of ' the scheme.': He thought that; the cost of .defence .in .this countryhad', been increased unnecessarily. . The r scheme would add half a million,to the taxpayers' burden and. ; tho . young : men' were going to be robbed of their .physical liberty.. He had yet.to be.told that the. Anglo-Saxons were not equal to tho -Germans, the,Swiss,.the Chinese, and.people of'.ottier.-'countries'.'. .'He -admitted ' that physical: drill r was a,grand 1 thing both for. boys and for-girls; To say- that military drill' : was absolutely necessary was completely- wrong. He. was -surprised, ■that on 'every possible: occasion the"example of Germany, Japan, .and Switzerland was .brought .out before New Zealand. Had /Germany ever .produced a' Johnson ;or a Jeffries? (Laughter.) Had any country on the' .Continent produced a Sandow?, No, -if" one. .wanted, to. find people .of muscle and -courage one had to .go to Old England. ..-'(Applause.) New, Zealand would do all right if it husbanded its resources and developed tho country and'its manhood and gave them a good education. Then they would be able : to battle their way through life hot only in New. Zealand, but in all parts of. the 'world. (Hear, hear.). What had wb!in-New Zealand to fear? Were pigeon-hearted ?. Why should wo rely on firearms and put mantraps in tho gardens when there were' no desperadoes about?. The attempt to promote,war was made - for trade, purposes. The' jingoes were, the mercantile classes whowantcd to go to war so that they might- amass wealth—so. that. they might get rid: of their' rotten meat, of their shoddy, and bf'-itheir bad smokeless powder. (Laughter.) .' All this, talk . about militarism was. due '.to the scaremongers':, who were ' mioro to-be shunned - than the pickpockets. 'Why, : tho scaremongers' went to churoh and, during prayers, Svith their eyes turned. 1 down,' scanned ■ army contracts; .(Laughter.)'.. Germany, Japan, and other. countries wanted to trade with New: Zealand; they did'.not want to relieve the Prime Minister of his responsibilities; nor to ■ assume, the national and private debt of Who brought Lord Kitchener here? The Prime Minister would say the country. ~There was such a : thing as man' worship.,. If the country or : tho Empiro was , ever in . danger, thousands of young men would,hasten to offer their services. They did not want to look like.an Assyrian hawker's window, wearing tinsel and sometimes a . silver medal. .It was his opinion that the money that was proposed to be . spent might just as .well bo put in the bottom of the sea. .•••■■■■■• ' -" . ■ DIFFICULTIES OF SELECTION. Sir William. Steward- (Waitaki) said, that every "effort should bo made to preserve the colonies for the. white race. ;Before many-years tho yellow • people might insist upon entrance to tho colonics, just as IJuropcans had entrance to their lands. Then again one could nover tell in what trouble's the Mother Country might become involved. He was pleased that Lord Kitchener had been consulted with regard to tho defences of this country. Tho Bill mot , with his hearty support. Ho was pleased at the speech which had been delivered by Mr. Allen. (The' Prime Minister: Hear,

liear.) As regards sorao of the criticism which lie made, lie (Sir William) was in complete accord. After the exemptions had been taken into account, it' would still bo found that there was a surplus of young men. He would suggest that tho numbers might be obtained by means of an automatic system, under which the standard of height and weight might bo increased or decreased. This was the only blot in the Bill. •

REMARKS BY MR. MALCOLM. Mr. Malcolm (Clutha) said that the possibilities of war had by no means died out. A mere citizen army was not sufficient for the defence,of this country. Although Lord Kitchener was an expert, tho Government was entitled to use its own judgment. He would ask the House to hesitate before it raised the compulsory age to 25. It. was possible to got too far in, advance of public opinion, with the result that ,the whole scheme might break down. In carrying out.tho scheme the most important factor would be a sufficiency of trained officers. It was a very real danger; so that they should make a modest beginning. 'Then again'by increasing the ago it.would be interfering more with the home life of the young men, for many of them would be married. ' '.' ' '. Mr. Taylor: Exempt them. i '■'" Mr. Malcolm; I am afraid that the oxemptions will cover the- whole of- the young men between 20 and 25. ' Continuing, ;Mr..Malcolm,said that he did not know how the exemptions' were to be made .without creating class feeling. He hoped that the selection of the young onen .would, not be loft to justices of the peace. He could not. understand any. J.P. "burdening himself with the duty. Perhaps'.it would not be' a"-'bad. tning to exempt all : workers—(Oh's !)— and make those v who had to serve the men of leisure, members. of Parliament,-. and.' professional men. ..(Laughter.), H© was not in favour of the judges of the Courts being associated. with a, military, tribunal, and ho, was glad an amendment was. suggested..,!. Britain.,was...frequently, engaged in/small wars, and he" thought, that as a means of '.training our/,officers, a. certain. number of them. should' be sent to the front, wjiere they could be put : to. the supreme, test. 'Once .they ;: proved', their'worth tliey'Cbukl bo brought back to. continue, their'sphere .of usefulness in New Zealand. We-could not afford to. experiment with expensive officers, who' might -fail ; us .in, the hour Of.' need. .;'V: : 'iyALUE^OF;;DISCIPLrNi;-yV:''' .Mr. G.. M.! Thomson (Dunedin: North) said ho ..would, support the. Bill,' although, perhaps not in its jeutirety.:: .Tho./ques; tibn of discipline was going to'be a difficulty.-. Good.discipline wasaifine.thing, but...■■discipline. not properly, carried out became, a positive::danger...:. v The .'.taking away :< of young men from their, employ-, lncnt for-drill, had been .urged by.-some speakers'as a 'possible source .of to commence, but such had ,iiot-:been tho case; in, Germany.:, -He thought"' the, 'scout movement was a,very,:excellent one, but; it was 'one, that' required; a; good/deal'.of watching..-The scouts by virtue of'their position,, as,' scouts were frequently asking, exemption .from. school drill. Ho .thought school;-drill, .should come .first; and., only, so! long: as'.the scout movement .was additional to the drill -was,'it?-the advance it should. be... The' young men of the country!, should-be educated up to' realise:: that they' were part,of-a- great Empire,.-and had :their part'.-.to bear; in' keeping, it up. v '■'■;-: v-.-- : .\.- : '\ ;:''.

:, DTHER SPEAKERS.: y Mr. •', Hanan : (Invercargill) thought '• it would be bettor for the present to limit the.age to '21. years. 'j He'did : not;'kriow that, .public ; opinion : would:-approve, of coiupulsion up to the'age of;2o. ; . It;would' be better',, to proceed ..step :by -step •- and ■work, gradually-.to; tho, ideal'.formula'ted' ,by':Lord-Kitchener.: ;-■" : .'■■•,■■'■'■;■. j■"■'"■'. : '-; ; VV .' :; : ~ Mr.';Pe'arCß (Patea)';was strongly'opposed' to" I :increasing''- the ' compulsory ■ age ■from,: 21 < ;'to ; --25.;/. -If«.tho: ; 'ago-;;,was .extended,'■'. the riumbsr /'available«:would be. more ,than necessary, 'arid.would neceS: sitate a banq't. l .'•■. He .was, also opposed' to' tho,-' exemption' ,'of 'dairy., workers as '.'a' class, :as had - been suggested by .'some .speakers: ■ . '■-'':• !:/:■;:■':'.' i '\-^---

■' ,-Mr. L'angi : (Maniikau).-hope<V that, rifle clubs 'would be encouraged, .-.arid,. -that nothing; would be dono to retard the boy scout - or. cadet 'movements.' ■ '", -'■ . Mr. Wilford ■ (Hutt) '.declared': that' "physically -.unlit": would' be; very, hard .to detine, If >a; man. wero once exempted his services,could never be. requisitioned. ;''-Mr;;!Pliillipps.; ; (WaiterData), emphasised the duty .of,;tho young, ableTbodied men, in .the matter of, the defence, of,"their, .country. -..:'.-':.■ -,:'-. : :;v ■ ' ■;-,'.'.'' ; ," : .(■■ ; -'-V:'. v v.' ;: Mr.,' Luke (Wellington Suburbs), thought, ithat ,if.:some';,of I the of- the /Bill';:wero--. given-, effect; toj; they'-.would "harass; industry and; commercial', life'.' iHe' would, however, do. his utmost toholp, .forward! a' scheme of:defence.-'-He. thought ; capablo' : officers; .could >• arid ..'.should'-, bo. drawn"• from,' the' industrial.,'classesV; :It; :was'. hot necessary, as some'.;pebple'. held, that; officer's 'should: : "be brought, up "in the purp?<!.: :■■'•■;.' ."■...;■; ; :'• .''■-:;,';.••: ,'■.":.-■ '.-.'■':. Mr. Mander ' (Marsden), Mr.'. Wright OVellington South), and Mr., Clark (Port Chalmers) # were opposed .to the increase in' the age limit -in respect to- compulsory 1 .training. ; ; ; : '-- •;."' ' : :■'■ ■

; Replying at "1.45 a.m. thei Premier-said ,he appreciated the fact; that the Bill had been" treated ■' from'., a'• non-party: point' Tof. view.-.He'was very at the'excellent speech made ..by Mr.,- Allen, Mn leading :off> the debato.,, . When'. the scheme was in full operation there .would not be the voluntary as well as the'com-: pulsory. • form 'of training. Y : .■ The" ! suggestion' that in the caseof exemptions "whole classes should- be dealt- with' would be considered. 'He wished to Impress the importance, of. raising".the age, for' compulsory, training : to 25. : It was not.true that -the workers wished to shirk their responsibilitiee. ■■.-•■.'■ .'->' ',-.._,., ;The ; Bill was then read a second time.

the House rose at 2 a'.m.y the Premier said the Imprest Supply Bill 'would- be taken- to-day. , ; : .'■'"■:•■■ v■.