MR. HIKE'S CHARGES.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 915, 7 September 1910, Page 5

MR. HIKE'S CHARGES.

POLITICIANS AND LAND TRANSACTIONS. A HOT DEBATE. COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ASKED FOR. REPUTATIONS OF PARLIAMENTARY CANDIDATES. There was an important discussion in the House of. Representatives yesterday, whilst the l Laud Settlement ;■ i'iniincH Bill was being introduced, in regard to the, allegations recently, made by. Mr. Hine, M.P. for Stratford, who charges certain people with having, whilst occupying seats : in' Parliament, received.. commissions on the.'salo of various estates to .the Government. '

'. The discussion was openedi by Mr. T. E. 'Taylor; 'M.IV for .Clvristehurch North, who gave it as his opinion that no member of Parliament should be .allowed to accept directly or indirectly any commission upon the' sale of. any land that passed'through; the hands of the Government. He did-not know what Mr. Hmc intended 1 to do in regard to his charges. It was for him to say whether he thought that the Bill opened wider the to that rascality which he alleged. M.T. Hine had asserted that mem hers, of- a former ■ Parliament had received commissions for services rendered in connection with laud, transactions in which the Government was concerned. He (Mr. Taylor) held that members had no rightto render any such -services for any consideration. .If Mr; Hine had abandoned his charges, it would be for-tho House to find .out who'were involved in the transaction's. He held very strongly that it did not matter .what ( trouble a member went to in regard to public business, he had .no~ right to receive any consideration outside' his statutory payments. ', Mr. Hogan (Wanganui) said he did not see how. members could interest themselves in connection with sales under the Bill. ' .'" v -'■ . ;| Mr. Taylor: By pulling wires on the Land Purchase Board.' In" the .course of further remarks, Mr. Hogaii SiUU thai there would: be dozens and dozens .of ~salcs about which an' M.P..would know nothing at all. ;

A : Roving Commission impossible. "The Prime .Minister: said that on the dayiafter Mr. Hine had made his charges he had written to each of the chairmen of r tho' Land 'Purchase , Board, .Messrs. M'Kerrow; Barron, and Ritchie....'-He might say that he proposed to use the information at a future datel He thought that Mr. Hi an should state the people to whom ho was alluding. That .was still his opinion.; Mr; Hine had allowed a reflection to be cast over every member oi. Parliament, also past members... Ho had .'said that he was in.possession of-certain" information -and he. wanted a roving Commission extending over transactions which might'.. cover ■ -■■ a■' period yof 16 or ,17 years.; No'- Parliament, in" the. "world .would agree :■ to that. . course. In tho' letters in question . ho ' had asked the respective chairmen of the boards .ifauy pressure-"hail' been brought to bear by the. Government, or by members of Parliament, and they said .that no .such' thiiig. had pecufreit.'■■•' Tin. government hadt never; had anything to do with the'transactions beyond. accepting tho recommendation '--'of the Land Purchase Board. .If a : charge hart been made against the Government he would have' set up an inquiry instanter, and every; member 'of the Land ' Purchase Board 'would have bcon -put. on his oath. The Government was not responsible for the. actions of individual members, and if'any hon. gentleman had done anything the nought 'to'.name l him. ; - In the'-'mehntimc .'tho imputation he had; mudo, was allowed to lie on. every ■. member, •' and, he. was : open.to venomous attacks and;slanderous..stated nients. He agreed that a member in;, his official-capacity ought not to rcceivo any recognition "beyond- that paid to him for carrying out his official-duties.". It was due to the country that the names of tho gentlemen, the 1 member for Stratford accused should be given. Ho had known the.'three gentlemen connected with the. Land Purchase Board (Messrs. J. M'Ker- 1 row, A. Barron,'and Ritchie) for years, and no influence could' be brought to bear .upon them., He did. not think anyone would dare to attempt to bring pressure upon them. The.Government had never acted unless .the board was unanimous and- had never, asked tho board to increase its price. ..'..' : .! Mr. Fisher: Has a property'ever been reoffered? ,' ;' /Sir. Joseph Ward: Hundreds and hundreds, and they will bo again. They aro; refused because we believe the'prioo fo, be too high. My experience is that these properties, are invariably reoffered again ami again.. There-can be no suggestion that because/a property-is reoffered there has been an improper thing done.' We' could not have'lookcd at all the properties' that have been,offered to. ua even during,the past five years. He had heard rumours, but they'had never been ; reported officially t0.... any member of the. Government..

Mr. Hine Replies to the Prime Minister. : Mr.. Hine; (Stratford) said that ho would like to givehisj reason, why he had not given the names. It would not be right to hold the names of anybody up to the , public gaze unless there was a promise of a proper tribunal, to inquire intothe matter. He. would give, full particulars of his charges if.,a -commission were set up-;(hear) hear) -and there need, be'no delay. '".'■ i .- Mr. Laurenson:;'What is the comuiia.' sion< for? ■'','- --, ~...' ; -Mr. Hine: To inquire into: my charges. ■: In the course' of further' remarks Mr. Hine said he would like to, refer to another; aspect, of the, matter, viz., a, statement' by the .Prime'. Minister that' no matters of the kind had ever been brought under his notice. If Sir Joseph Ward would carrv his miitd, back to last election he would remember, that a then sitting! member * on.' the':. Government side admitted on the platform that he had accepted a commission not' in regard to a land ■transaction but for piloting'a petition through Iho House. Did the ljrinie Minister \ withdraw his , support from that candidate? Ou . the contrary, lie did not. , Sir Joseph went to that district and made a policy, speech in which his remarks:, were largely ' directed against the Opposition candidate. Sir Joseph: Who was the Government candidate? .-,■ 7": ,Mr.'Hine: I was his opponent; we will put it that, way. .Resuming, Mr. Hine said that Sir Joseph did his best to secure, the return of the gentleman in question. 7 A Warm Rejoinder. The Prime Minister said that if Mr. Hine said he wasawaii: of tho sort'of thing to which ho alluded in his charges there,.was n word in the English language which he would like to use, but ho could not do so in tho House. If Mr. iline, made that statement outside the House he would tako the necessary action to protect himself. He (Sir Josoph) had already to personal friends stated thut in , consequence of an indirect suggestion made in Mr. -Kino's district that he know something he would not shelter himself Mn Parliament if they gave him the names. Mr. Hine was referring to a charge affecting Mr. Syme in connection with the presentation of a petition. He (Sir Joseph) would admit that ho supported Mr. Syme at tho last election. The fact was flint - he did not hear anything of tho matter until the election was on. Then. Mr. Symo had told him that he could clear himself. 'As he had said before if Mr. Hine referred to a suggestion in which it was attempted to draw him into the matter there was only one word which would stigmatise his appreciation of the suggestion. Reputations of Public Men. If it wero suggested that he should go into the character of members standing for the House lie wns not. going to do it to-day, but lie was ready Mr. Masscy: What do you mean? t The Prime Minister said he knew something of the reputations of some men who had stood for seats in Parliament. If he was expected to inquire into private transactions of men who stood in

the Government interest, All. Massey should do the same thing in regard to men standing as Oppositionists. Mr. Massey. I urn . willing to defend any actions of my side of the House. Sir Joseph AVard: I am willing to do the same. If it is a matter of going into the private affairs of men who stand as candidates it is as much upon the Leadei of l.h'.i Opposition as upon me. If we want to go into the reputations of men who are standing for Parliament the. House would make -a mistake if it supposed that imputations were only made against those on tho Government side. Air. Hine had made a reflection upon every member of the House at tho time referred to. If. the hon. gentleman wanted an inquiry he should give names. To go over tho whole period of the operation of this important Act. under which oveT five million pounds worth of land had been purchased would not be a proper course without the full information to which the House is entitled being given. ' Good Effect of the Charges. Mr." Massey. referring, to Mr. Hine"s charges, said the charges were that several members (four or ilve) of the present or previous Parliaments had ■■ received commissions for acting as vendors between men who sold land and the Government. In some cases the commissions were said to be very considerable, in one case it rah into four figure's. Did the hon. gontleman justify that sort of'thing? Sir Joseph Ward: No,'l do not. ■Mr. Massey:' I am glad of that. What would become of the independence, of members if they were allowed to become agents' for vendors, and were allowed to use their., influence to induce the Government tu buy land perhaps at more than its value. It was the duty of tho Prime Minister to give Mr. Hine the commission. Mr. Hine was prepared to abide by its results. If he was.- not prepared- to substantiate his charges his political career would come to an end. (Voice: I should think so.) If he substantiated his charges he would have done gjod service to the country. He had done good work already by referring to this matter and stopping it.' He had merited thanks instead :of opprobrium Sir Joseph Ward had suggested that there were men on that (Mr. Massey's) side whose reputations he could attack. _ Sir Joseph: 1 said candidates. • Mr.'Massey; I'do my best to see that our candidates: are decent, straight-going men, and I think I have been very successful. '. We : do not profess to. be saints or angels on this side_ of the House-(lain;hter)-but as far liament and public life are concerned our hands are clean. , If the Prime - Minister knew anything to the. contrary he challenged him to put it oh record. Ministers and the Purchase Board. /'Tho Prime Minister said there was a suggestion underlying a remark made by Mr. Massey that , pressure could •be brought to bear, on the Land Purchase Board by the Government, ■ and that the Government 'had yielded. He did not object to ■ the fullest inquiry, for heknew that no attempt of the kind had ever been , made. - The Government had no power in the matter; it did not agree to the acquisition of an estate unless the board was unanimous on the point. _ -.Mr; -Massey: Is not. one of the Ministers on' the board?. ■••

Sir Joseph: No.. '~."';'• ltesuming,. the Prime Minister said; that the Government had no power to buy a single estate except on the unanimous recommendation cf the board. Later he would put on record the replies of the respective chairmen of the board, and would also make a statement to tho House.- The' Government was not responsible for the private acts of members either'.directly or indirectly., Of course, the, Government, would regret to / hear that any member, had done anything wrong. The responsibility, however, would bo the member's. : . No member would expect the Government to accept the. responsibilitv; it would be a. gross insult. 'Reverting to the question -of tho board, he would like to say that no member of the Government had ever attended a'mecting of the board with a view of influencing members. Letters had: been .received by the Government from owners, 'but' they had been sent on to the board without comment. Some people .were only , too -ready to believe rumours if. public men' were affected. Mr. Massey referred, to. his .previous remarks' as to' tho position' of Ministers arid.,the board. "It-was".'' not .possible" .to carry.all the clauses of these Acts in one's head, and he had thought for the moment that the Minister for l Financo was ex officio-a member of the board. The Act,'however,, stated that.the Minister jnight from time to" time "direct, the-board to'negotiate with'an owner," also, that-the 1 Minister, "should offer such sum as he thinks fit" for any .property. The board was an advisory .board, but when it canie to making an offer it was, the duty, of'the Minister. If the Minister seemed 'so inclined he could offer a'much largor sum..than the board recommended, '.''•;" ■-.'■'.

The Prime Minister said the position of the board was to examine into' a property,', and' make its recommendations. There was no such thing as the Minister negotiating or making an ■ offer. If it were;foundvthat this year .£500,000 of land was 'purchased in a district,' the Government would' certainly not allow the' board to examine into other properties in the same district until a reasonable".'amount-, of the money available was spread over other portions of the Dominion; ■■ There. had nover been a case where'the Government had recommended a higher l -price than that fixed by the board. The' country would not stand a law undor which the board would have sole ; control. - Mr'.. Massey: -Nobody .would ; suggest such a thing. ... 7 •-.' A Question., Mr. Fisher (Wellington Central) inquired if Mr, Hine gave the names, would the Prime Minister set up a commission. Sir .Joseph Ward: I would undertake to inquire into the cases without any. 'hesitation. •.7 . ' ' Mr.'Taylor:Through a commission? Sir Joseph: Let him do the right thing; send the whole thing to the Government, who won't keep it private, or state publicly the whole of. the facts, in which case there will be a proper inquiry. . - The 'Hon. T. Mackenzie, said' that when "ho, returned to New Zealand, ten or eleven years'ago, he had'heard a rumour of bribery in connection with the salo of an' estate. He satisfied himself 'that there-was nothing in it. The most absolute care had been taken in,connection with the purchase of estates, and no influence whatever had . been -brought to bear: upon the Land Purchase Commissioners. Could Mr. James MacKerrow be suspected if pressure had been brought to bear upon him? Yet he was the man affected in a case stated to him (Mr. Mackenzie) at the time he came back to New Zealand. Then there was Mr. Barron. Was he squeezable by members of Parliament? An hon. member: No. Mr. Mackenzie agreed that he was not. "And if you want my opinion," added Mr. Mackenzie,'! would say the probability is that we are not giving as much. as' wc ought to give for some of these estates, and therefore that we are not acquiring as many as wo ought to. Tho policy is almost too conservative— (hear, hear)—and' we have lost good estates through this. The Clydevale Estate, for instance. In the Case of this estate I took a prominent part in urging that it should be acquired at a higher price than I understood had been recommended.

Mr. Hlne Makes an Offer. At this stage Mr. Hine rose, and asked if the Government would appoint two Supremo Court judges to inquire and report into the charges if he gave the details. Mr. Hogan: Will you pay the expenses? Mr. Hine: Yes. I will pay the expense if it is a question of expense. Continuing, Mr. Hine said the cost would not be great. At this point he was interrupted by Mr. Colvin (Chairman of Committees) suddenly discovering that tho question before tho House was the Land Settlement Finance Act Amendment Bill, in regard to which the matter under discussion was irrelevant.