THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 911, 2 September 1910, Page 7

THE HOUSE.

?'' ': the House;resumed 1 its sittiaas <".".. 'jyesSer^y/f.--.,-:-./^----'-:...---.-'...■■.•..•..:■■-.■.•.■ ■■'■■ . \:--X.. '-■ . .;_The itempieton' Domain.;-Alteration : :cf ,;■■.. yßoundanee-Bill and- ;..:■■■.'■ - ■~ ■...-:*• ■ ■■ Wan ? anni Harbour Board Vesting ,;,. IBiU-were dealt with, in Committee!: '■V \.- 1 ™: following Bills were passed throuKh' : j ; : (their TCmaining stages: '; :•.■■•.-: , ■ Chrirtcharch Tramway: District A'mond- , meiit_BUl, -Neleon- City Drainage- Loan .• and _ Empowering Bill; and the Gisborno -,' [Sarbour Amendment BilL- ;.■■•'"■ ..--:.••• : ; PUBLIC DEBT ,^)(TINCTIp^ SOME IMPORTANT SPEECHES.: % :'■;;-: ■ ;THE;BILL PASSED/ .'■ "■■■' ; :< '■ I ':■■. lnVmovirig.:the: adoption/of'the report of J;ho _. committee on ;the Public :'• Debt .-■ a&tinction Bill, . .•"'="'• V t PBOU3 MNISTBR, .- pointed out V the. amounts, at the disposition of ■ ,the;.sinking-fund commissioners would ,1», invested ; mortgages to the people !<",: ; the: Domrnioa and to local bodies,' Vffnilst- jf;. at any time there; were surplus ■ puoneys .available, theso might be used ■for the'purpose of reducinf; 'tiie public , ■ iuobt'.by; the purchase,of opr own stock f-'. .Eo-lbngas;it was rilling below, par; The , Weaknesses that'existed in, past eysteme ■ Yhad been avoided under ■'; th'o present One of the sti-ongest safe...guards'was that in : future ailstock would >,-: !tear;'an endorsement .to the effect that ; ia sinking fund existed;'-for'.-the' purpose . [of -redeeming nt. .: Hβ ventured :to say . Jthat-.vin:, fifteen- or iwenty years i there : lie a etrohg publio* opinion that pjo attempt should be made in the I 'way; ,of diverting the- sinking funds , . ißy thattime .; also . there would be a striking . diminution of the amount of money n>.qiiired for public -works. The absence .of,a need for further loan moneys would be;.a. great .incentive tp the Government '. of the ■ day to see that . the scheme was ■: .continued; During the previous de- > ■:■■ Jjates some of the critics of the Bill nud ';■; heen anxious to know,when tho repay- ;; ment of loans would begin. As he had ; eaid before, if loans fell duo in the early : ..course'of:the -scheme, they would have •to be renewed. . . ' '• ' '.., Mr. Allen: For . a further. Eeventy-five ,': years? "■•■."''..-;' : .. ■• ' ' ■ ■ ' ■ - ■' V' Sir-Joseph: No; I den't siiy so. Mr.' Allen: Will' their sinking funds .-. bo for seventy-five years? : Sir Joseph: Yes. ' ■'" .. ' ;^'Nothing-Left to Chance." - : ' Coritiriuing his remarks,'. Sir Joseph . .etated that the repayment of any ,-loan' the amount that was previously

paid into the sinking fund in respect of it must he; continued. There was no possibility of any diversion from the tunds; nothing was left to chance. It would be quite wrong to have u mandatory time at which the loans should be repaid. It : "wna more important that the , funds: should be allowed to bo' built up than 'that loans should bo paid off here and tlierfc befbrQ tho State was ready.to make a practical application of the scheme. Of course if in ten or fifteen.years tho Government of tho day wanted to repay any loans it could do.so, so long as it continued to pay the amount in respect of the loans into the sinking fund. In.the course of the debate, it 'had been suggested that New Zealand should copy the system in forcb in Great Britain, viz., repaymentof- loans out of surpluses. Tile system could not bo adopted because the position of the'two countries was so very different. In■ the first place the margin 'of surplus in the Old Land was much ■ greater than in New Zealand, and, secondly, it had'to be romijmbcred that J<ow Zealand was but a young'country in its developmental stage. .'■■■:'— Mr. Massey on.-: Borrowing. \ Mr.. MASSEY said that, in theVcoiirsv of the debate' the Prime Minister ; had suggested that in fifteen or twenty years borrowing would bo concluded. For himself he was anxious to see. borrowing reduced.but ho could not look forward to the time when il. would not be necessary to borrow for public works.. He would like to see tho day when. there would be a Government strong'enough, and a Par-; liament willing, to keep down borrowjng. for public works to one million ,a year. That stage could.hot, however, be reached for. soine years yet. As soon as possible the funds sh.juld'be used for the purpose of meeting the more custly loans. lit had not .suggested that surpluses should bo; devoted towards.the repayment of.loans. As a. matter'of fact,' h« thought .it wai) the ; proper thing to transfer as much,of the , surplus as possiblo to", the Public .Works I'uride.. As regards:'the railways, he thought it would be a good thing if ''■ h sinking fund "could be '■ built up out: of. profits., Instead of laatinjr. 75 years, he did iiqt : . believe /that 'the would last a quarter 'of: tlut iperiod,;;- ; Theru. would be losses unless provision was'.oiade .out: of the Consolidated Tund to i. meet breaks ; in the • continuity, of: the; investments, also.'to-meet the.; expenses ,oi', re-j newals of loans, etc.,/ The. joke of the I whole thing ':>vas that the Prime Minis-; tor,', who 'now'asked' the/.House to. take; Win-.seriously, in ..connection with the proposals contained in the measure, was •a' member, of .a former Ministvy ;J.whioh collared'certain; .sinking-fund's. ' ; ;'-: ■.

.Weaknesses of iihe;' Scheme. ' ; ;.'. :■ •■Mr,' NEWMAN ■ (Manawatu)7sai'd; thai he did.not know pno.financial 'expert outside Parliament /who believed: that the scheme would' attain.its end. One of the objects-.-of the "Bill mii to' delay ~the repayment of''our loans to a'time when 'none of .the: present.members, would 'be .taking any' interest in finance—— .'.'■ :■ Sir Joseph .Ward: .I.don't know, about that—somewhere', else. . 7 v■" - ' Mr. Newman r . I hope that : we'.'will .be '•indulging in something; more interesting.(Laughtei\)- -> t ! ■ . : : "'■' : ' 7V'7 ; '" Continuing-his.'remarks, Mr.-Newman said, that he. 7was7soi'ry that. had not. accepted, 'his ; proposal;- that" a period/ should be. fixed' when th* repayment of, the loans , should begin. In that regard, he . pointed out that ■eventually the loans ..would have to. be . paid off gradually: He did not think. i.that'.the/ people: of the country realised that .it was 'possiblo, under the scheme that no. , more .loans! would, be ; paid off for." 75' years. For himself;he did; not think; that the whole of the' 'public debt should; be paid oil tor many years; When the sink-, ■ing funds-.grew they: would attract-, the' envy of the Treasurer ot. 'the day, who ,would ask the ; House: to .provide.-.means , whereby he might,be, able to, make ust[ of them. ■".; ' ■;-.;.7 ".-'••■. ■ . ■■'...• '"'

,; Mr. WILFORD 7(HuttX said - that ■ it ought:'to .be.open to -.the'-CploniSl ffieae I ', iurer to" take.loans bearing a high rate of interest, add; them .together, and -arrange ' soiiie of conversion; - Sinking ;: fuuds''should-.-be''confiiied-.te.! those; loans bearing. a-high rate of interest. .7 "Juggling With the Finances." 7 ■ : Mr. -ALLEN : (Bruce)-pointcd ; '.out .that' the :conversion of loans: would not pay off tiro debt. Hβ believed that'the Bill had. introduced abuses of the principle upon 7which it. was based. The ,G6yernmentTwas breaking faith .'in'regard to ■ the -loans to local, bodies, .and. the. warloans by: merging, their . sinking; funds into the new fund. Tlio law provided in regard to. these sinking.iunds that the annual'amount should be i iier'oeht. of the principal; but the new Biir.prpvided .for" a longer term 7of . .repayment and---'a'/sinking;',fu'nd- appropriation' of only ■■ one-fifth per ' cent. , The " 'effect 'of the'-measure ."would 7be that the Colonial Treasurer could seize the'sinking funds" attached to the loans and the interest ontKem.-arid utilise .the moneys for the purpose of juggling with .the .finances. The" Crown was7postponing to posterity heavy .responsibilities in respect of the loans to local bodies. When ■the:-.period of these' loans. to the local .bodies expired the Consolidated Fund would have to'.find another i£liO,-<IQO per annum, in respect7of them:, for the- remainder of the. 75 years. A weak'point in'connection with-the scheme, was; that tho ' Prime Minister had practically. admitted -that .he,did riot mean to pay,'off any of the public 'debt in the early stages of the 75 y*ars. What did ho mean by • the early stages".of the'period? .

Most Optimistic Man in New Zealand, r As. regards the present. : accumulations of' sinking funds in respect of the loans.to local bodies, and the war loans 'these were to. remain intact for 75 y*ars. Thut was undoubtedly, a breach' of crust- for the moneye .were accumulated to meet- those .loans at a much earlier period. •. In regard ■■to the proposed endorsement on all stock .in. the i future he would ltfe to know what it meant. Was it fair to enter into va> bargain, .with the holders in respect ,of o scheme which- was only an experiment ? The endorsement could only say. that thfe sinking funds system provided for, a pooling sohem*.-.-'. He would still invite the Prime' Minister to leavo out of the scheme the loans to local bodies and the war loans. 'In the course of his speech. Sir Joseph hod stated that nothing was' left to. ohanco. Ho knew; the . Prime Minister .was. an optimistui man,: probably • the. most optimistic man in New-Zealand. But. was .nothing left to chance? Was it not a fact that the ■ financial conditions were, always chansing? -. ■.-...., , .- , ■;. . :,'.

Wanted: Vigorous Public Works Policy. The Hon., T. MACKENZIE -said' that I 'demands: had beon made from time to time for a system of sinking; funds in connection with. the. public works. The present scheme was a' beginning of such a. system. As'regards borrowing, he would have, to refer those who wanced the amount to bo reduced to the , numerous demands-.all:-'over the country for further public works expenditure. If all tlie .demands last'-year had been acceded to the public .works expenditure would have -totalled over ten millions. * For himself) he was in favour of a vigorous publio .works',policy. , Replying to an interjection by Mr. Hine, he .stated that no portion of the country had. fared bettor in. the way. of votes in recent years than Taranaki. He wont on to say that those who were talking about tapering - off. the borrowing did.not renlise the vast potentialities of Hie Dominion. ' In America half the public debt had', been, paid off within'a brief period. .'.Mr. Allen: What was that? ' Mr. Mackenzie: You don't believe in interruptions; and I am going to have my say. ■ ■ ' ■■. ■ ■'■■'■■ Continuing his remarks, Mr. -Mackenzio said that a substantial farmer who had just returned to New Zealand had written him to tho effect that all this country wanted was to throw a few croakers into the ocean. . . -.' View's of Other Members. Mr. J. C. THOMSON (Wallace)- believed that the scheme was au honest attempt to lay tho foundation for the reduction, if not the extinction, of the national debt. Mr. STALLWORTHY (Kaipara) described tho .Bill as a kad-poncil which had been so well prepared that it would unfailingly write off the public.debt. Mr. LUKE (Wellington Suburbs) ex- . pressed his approval of the 6cheme.

Sir. HINE (Stratford) was of opinion that, the Bill should l>6 recommitted in order that a clause might be inserted providing that, all' existing, loans should bo repaid within the 75 years.

Mr. WRIGHT. (Wellington- South) stated that if tho Prime Minister was in office in 25 years, and there arose a financial crisis ho would undoubtedly find a way of getting out of the difficulty. Sir Joseph Ward: Not by seizing the. sinking funds; I have nev-er done it. Mr. Massey: Yes, you have. Continuing his remarks, Mr. Wright said .that he did not think that the Prime Minister was tho real author of the scheme, and he doubted 'whether he had got to the bottom of the Bill himself. ."■'■■■■ Messrs. J. A..'HANAN (Invercargill) and G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) also spoke, and the report was adopted. 'On the motion that the Bill be read a third time, ..■•■■■■'■■ 'Mr. J. T. HOGAN (Wanganui) also contributed to the discussion. Premier in Reply. The'PRIME MINISTER said ho was surprised to hear Mr. Allen state if the scheme weiu adopted it would mean breaking faith with those who had lent the money.for the loans to local bodies. Who had lent the money for those loans? he asked. • Was if the British moneylenders ?'No. The moneys for these loans had been obtained from the Post Office in this country. Not one penny, had- been obtained from outside' New Zealand, for this .purpose. It was true that' at one time an advance of .£50,000 had been obtained from a bank for loans to local bodies, but ,it had long since been repaid. When ' the Opposition had talked about the British system of redeeming loans he was surprised. What was the position at Home? . Since 1891) the Homo Government . had raised i!200j000,000, but' it had only reduced its total indebtedness during that period by ■•.-■■■■' J . In the ■ course of further remarks, Sir Joseph referred to the position of a loan of ,£500,000, the sinking funds in connection with which had been utilised. Mr. Massey was, he said, quite wrong in.supposing that the transaction had cost the Dominion He (Sir Joseph) had in support -of his ) contention tho statement of an outside actuary — '■ ■Mr. J. Allen: I don't believe.it. ■ Sir Joseph:, Well, I don't believe you. - : The Speaker: Both those statements must be withdrawn.. ' Mr. 'Allen:. What am I expected; io •withdraw j ''the remark. that; I don't believe, the actuary's statement? ■ Sir Joseph: You .meant something else; well, I will, withdraw what I said. .

More Friction.-. ' ; i : . 7 '. - J ..'There was: another 'little "breeze" almost immediately:afterwards. ; The Primo :Minister declared that-Mr. Allen'bad stated that he : refused to .believe a man inorehonourablo than himself.7 77 ;V 77- . ■■'.■■..■■■■ .7 ■■■: ■ • 7 .'Members ■ : ; ; ■• I- will say a man as honourable! as■ himself.. , . ~ 7 In connection'.with ' the sarno matter .there was further' irritation. .-•■.-■.■■ '■■ ' "Mr." Massey asked whether the Prime Minister was in order in • stating that, he made a ■remark which ho knew was contrary to fact. . ■ '. . . Sir'Joseph':!'*said that you-should have known;.as a matter of fact, it,is contrary to fact. -7. ' ".;:■■ ' ■.■'■'■ ■ ' :■, .'■■■■■ . ' ■ The Speaker:..lt is not in .order to say thata member made a' statement which he knew was contrary to . fact. |. Sir'•.Joseph':'Well,'he knows now that it is .contrary to. fact, and he should withdraw his remark. \ .-■ * .'.■-. ;. Mr.' ; Massoy: V I did not cast, any aspersion oh the;late Treasurer, and I.stand by ,ull-that 1 havesaid in regard to the present Treasurer. ..... '"•.'(■ When the question was put that the Bill be.read a. third time, Mr. 'Dillon and Dr. To ■ Kangihiroa called. for. a division, .whioil -resulted as uncler:— V'' : :

7 '7/7 ;y -Ayes (51). - ''■' ■Anderson: 7'., Macdbnakl. •. ' . ■ Arnold ~-:.-. .77 -M'Kenzie, Hon. : R. :-Browh . .-7 ■■■■•■• ■;,'Mackenzie, Hon..,T. .. Buddp '■■ ".'■'■,"■■■ . .M'Laien .'■'■'■'-',', Buxtpivi ,; Iγ. 7- •" . Millar 7; , ~ . ,Garfolli V.',77 i, -'•' Ngata .. . Clark , Nosworthy ' ■ • fiohirj! y'-; n , -.,-.:,■: ■;.. Okey; 7 ■.. ( ! Graigie.7' "'' : ' Pearee. : . ' : ■'' ;. Davey ■■>-■>; '.:■ ./../.Phillipps/. , ■~..' ':■:■.. Dive. .... : , t . ' i i Poland ■','■';■., •, Duncan, Hoii. T, Poole ~ : . 'Eli' .'■"•.: .WaiV" -Reed' - . ' . Field/., ■■•'■■ ! ,. Ross ..,'.. . ■>' "Forbes.... .--. ■■.'{•. . B.ussell. ... .Fowlds ■■■ '■• ■■'.! : ". .- Sveddon -■. :-■.-'■ Glover ',"•. '. ' 7 Sidey . :.. : Graham , -..'"'7 ■■ .Smith . " tffreenslade Stallworthy Hall ■••-•■.■■■■ • ':■ Steward- -). . ... ; Hanan- ..7 . ' Taylor, E. H. Hogan ■7.. . . ' Ward ■' ■ , : Hogg . ..:'.■ ; : ,7: Wilford;. 7 ' ■ Jennings 7 • ,;'.' ,■. Witty. : La\vry ; .'■. ; ; : "Wright . ■' Luke '■-. '. - - '■''■..', ' ;.; •':.. :.7 '7.Noes (1C). : 7 - .--7 'Allen 7 . TKaihau'.' ■ Bollard •■:'■:''''.' '' Malcolm •■. ...-./' : Buchanan-'-v ■•■ . Mander . ■ 7 Dillon '-.•■■•' '7 Massey Guthrie 7 • Parata ■■ .' Hardy ,-■-■■-?■..■■• '"Rongihiroa, Dr. .. .Hemes -- ' Scott ; ' :.■:.:. . ' .. Hine .-. ~ ■ 7 Thomson, G. M. .': Subsequently.' Mr. ...Dillon , and Dr. Te 'Rangihiroa stated that they |had moved :for a division simply to test-'the. feeling of .'the House. . ■ ; CRIMES ACT AMEWDMENTBILL. . 7The Crimes !Aot Amendment Bill, which 'was received from tho Legislative Co'uncill,' was read a ■ first .time. ' .The House at this staget adjourned.- - .--.7 '. '■ ■'. "' 7 " '■'.-'■ ■ '•' \ ' ■' 7 '

MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS. ■ It is understood that the Medical Practitioners Bill lias had the consideration of: both the Minister' for Internal Affairs and the-Attorney-General. The Bill as 'originally drafted'has been • amended in material directions, ■ and it is believed that the amendments are approved by the Medical Association. ■ At .present the Bill' is before Cabinet for further corir sideration, and, if approved, it will no doubt be introduced this year. .■'■■•■.' LAW PRACTITIONERS AMENDMENT. ■'■ No alteration in respect to the law with regard to 'the examination or classifica : Woe of practitioners is provided in the Law Practitioners Amendment Bill. The Bill merely aims at providing, among other things, for contributions; from tho profession towards tho creation of a judges' library in Wellington, and ut giving further facilities enabling the New.Zealand- Law Society to carry out the powers and duties already vested in, the society by the Law Practitioners Act...; The Bill has. been introduced at the instance of the law societies, and has been submitted to , the New , Zealand Society for perusal. ' \

INDECENT PUBLICATIONS BILLy Tho Indecent .Publications Bill, which was reported to the Legislative Council yesterday; by the Statutes Revision Conimittoo, suft'ored very little during its passage at the' hands of the Committee. An important amendment has been made ,to Clause 3,,.the Committee removing the necessity of proving guilty knowledge on the part of a. person sending, causing to bo. sent, or ; attempting . to send au indecent document through tho post. A similar amendment has been made in regard to a person delivering, leaving, or causing an indecent document to be left on premises in tho occupation of any other person; Clause 13, which originally provided that no information should be laid by any person other than an officer of police; has been amended to. provide that no prosecution shall be commenced except, with tho leave of the' Attorney Tho Bill has been set down for committal' to-day.

QUAINT NATIVE PETITION. ' A somewhat quaintly-worded petition has been presented to Parliament on behalf of a- number of Natives. ■ The petition begins on the following lines:— "This is the prayer from us to you in the matter of oiii misfortiinu.-a. very great misfortune—our small area of t land is being taken away." The petitioners go on to state that the lands referred to wore arranged to be "restricted for the purpose of fishing grounds, cultivation, shell-fish grounds, and other descriptions of food eaten' by th<> Maoris for the maintenance of the tribe." If these restrictions are removed, soy thfi-"' petitioners, thfey will bo utterly undone, and there will be no , object m-remaining -alive in the world. . ■ .