PARLIAMENT.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 696, 22 December 1909, Page 8

PARLIAMENT.

. ..... -. - . _—_—»_—.... ! V NATIVE LAND LEGISLATION. ■ \ \ ;.■'•• CRITICISMjiN;TP COUNCIL. ;; » THE PROPOSED TARIFF CHANGES. ; . ; OLD AGE PENSIONS; ; RACING CLUBS ANDi/THEitOTAUSATOR:

■ Besides: sitting in' the, aftnrnopn,- the .Council held "'a le'rigthy sitting- in 'the evening yesterday. Ainongthomeasures which were disposed of were thV.Native Land-Bill, Coal .Mines Amendment Bill,- Public Works Amendment Bill, Stamps , Amendment Bill, and ln ß Country 'Licensing Hill. : '.'■ _ ..-' ~'•.■ : A bnsy. day ..was: spent.in :thc House^ yesterday.- Tho Customs Duties Amendment Hill, Old. Age Pensions Bill, Eace Meetings BiUr Urewera Nativo Eeservo. Bill, and Workers Compensation : Bill all ..passed their, second reading: and ■■■ Committee■ stages. The Eeformatory-- Institutions. Bill, Society-, .of .' countants Bill, and . Magistrates'; Court Amendment'Bill also passed-their second reading/ Tho Defence-'Bill was further considered in-Committee, ana a mild stonewall, which lasted fdr an hour and a- half, was conducted by Messrs.' : T/E. Taylor, Hogg,.and.M LarenWhen the ; stonewall 'concluded, at 1,30,; a.m., good: progress was.made'with the consideration of' the Bill in Committee.... -i'..-■: ■, . '■■~■■.

THE COUNCIL. \ TREATMENT OP : pCea ; ".f,o'r special .institutions;

■W&n-the) sittings;! of' the Council-were: |eMEE (AVeUingtbn). movedi durin'B the. recess,, the of .pro the rfour. largo centres,' of one for the,North> ancUneior-.the S'lsllnd, ifor the :care;of epilep ic ; ...cases, S"£'being- uniif'.for.•■■ttefttmeilt' our "bf a" number, ; -of:-cases :-wHere;,the ? patients belonged te,fhiiiifies The'oversight of such patients, was a-great hfcdship in ,-a:. home:-;: Such ; cases .were much more fitted for..ananstitulion .special y. established for the purpose;-"N'o 'hospital; the, w6rld 'tobk'in persons':suffering from epilepsy. He' thought that annexes might, bev erected either 'in connection- :inte, mefttal.mstitutions •or at the hospitals in: tho chief cincs., ~...

Special "Colony" Should , , . The 'Hon/ ■Dγ. COLLINS (Wellington)'• saW ho .had .known- of: many 'cases, where: mothers haa become' worn out in looking Rafter epileptic children. :Duririg/an' ; attack an epileptic might quito'Unconsciously commit a crime." He-knew of' a' large ■ number ■ of.: cases' m • Now Zealand, and the time, had. come: when some method migbt be "adopted; not; only to help sufferers, but to niak'o use of, their abilities at the-same time '-■ With"proper' supervision, .and- proper CMo'in a properly-equipped-institution; .there woro many,cases which would-.be greatly benefited. Where .epilepsy appeared late, in lite,-thoVcliiiiiccs-of a euro 'were much'greater, than whore ■ tho •disoaso-appeared in early lile: ile thought that-:'thoi,tiiMo had.:: arrived AWhcn.acolony oiie in' America sKmild'be established , in ; . New., Zealand..-. :j The.Hon. WIPBEE (Hawke's Bay) ■ thought that -if 'ai special-ihstitution: for opileptiQs ..were rcquireu, Be;.established on Mount Egmont, ,or'some other mountain. ' New.'Zeat ■ land-born children did not require su'oh an institution'; it. would bo used chiefly by, ,immigifants. 'There was: too-great" a .tendency to build special -hospitals. .-.Had.not -David said in;tho, ScHptnires that' tho' allotted; span -for man was 70years? Of course, if'a'person, were strong' and "healthy, there was no."objection "'to. 'them living on,to:Bo.lyoars. ' (Laughter:) He was firmly of opinion that when anybody reached tho aEO of SO, or beforo :if • they were decrepit, they should bo disposed of. ("Oh! Oh!") .What he took particular exception to was the fact that old people, '.frequently; - wont: in,for largo areas of laiid'Simply,, so that they might have a lot 'of land t(i hand.down'to their children.; Such: an",id(ia was' surely/the,idea of ariopileptic;,''. (Laugh'terJ. 1 .,' -.'.-.. '. .;• •. .. :-,,.:

Remarks by Dr.vFjn'dlay. " '•..■..': : ... -'- ,';Th'o: Hon. Dr. I'INDLAT pointed' ont: that there were .two'-,classes- of and'sane.-,. Thorp.were.at the present;time in the-me'nW,> h'ospitals"a'lhrae ; number of'cpilepr tio ■ patients '.who' 'during ..the ; period 'of.' attack' .wcro.liablo j to , , outbursts: bf, (violence.. Numbers of-'ihoi epileptic, patients- were, , howeverj/' not what ■ might: be described .as; extreme, cases;: A number of .male patients of .the latter 1 , class' resided; in an auxiliary department at Seacliff, and when the number of, similar; cases,amongst women was largo enough ,a similar depart-, ment- would be. provided for, them. It Hyould be therefore, that as. regards/-.epileptics, who werb'proper subjects for mental the- State' was 1 doing-its: duty.- The) class -to lthich the motion referred .could not'be dealt with' as-, insane.-' Of the older; sufferer's a. great many pere .capable -of, 'earning', their,^ownlive-.: lihood.',:.' '• '.-. .. ,•■.:.'•,.■>■', •■ ':<••.■'»-■ ''■"•■''/-•', ; Incarceration' must 'bo Voluntary. ■' : •: V

■• If tho State was dssired to,incatcerate these patients special legislation,-would, be necessary, and"there.yrould have tb'be"justified.the principlq.'that' thbso .who were not.. , insane, but were!'subject'.-to a recurrence of 'attack,/should be iricarcerated> .'Unless'. I 'detention. , .of .'such cases wero niade purely voluntary.'it would -ue. found that the patients would ,not remain iu the institution' !during. thV'periods of attack. .: . llembers:; It would havo. to ;bomade purely , T6iuhtaiy.."'-.'i.'." , -'.■•'...'-,'.■■'...,'.■■'■•"■• .. .'f ..:• -[. ' Dr. Tindlay, (resuming) said ■ tiiat with '.rer gard to children, that, difficulty was not:, so clear.'There.was at'.present: a homo"; tor defective ichildren 'near Nelson.' TKe inmates were defective to the'deicree of. aberration amounting"tp !. insanity'. ■ '.The ' question:': arose: was to' bo-'dpnb' with 'epileptic children who were ..not insario?" The 'Government' appreciated 1 tho points raised in the motion,: and would face;the problem .as-far , as possibles It might be' 'possible to "'erect some institution, whero children. might ■ bo : treated. '■■ ]T\\o w6.uld-'do'!its best., (Hear, hqar:) ..•'.;:■ ';;-." : Tho motion was agreed to without dissent:

■•>;;<■■ vNATIVE; LAND : ,BILL. ; ./^/".-V : ' : /SECOND /.READING:, DEBATE.'- '/ ! :: Eosuniing the. debate on'-'the. second reading' ° The IS liqn.'''W.'. W.' ; M'CiEDLE (Auckland) gc-uerally- : approved-of-. the .provisions :ih the Incisure.- Ho strongly advocated an, mcreaso in. the number of--Native. Land .-Court -judges. .Criticiim by the Hon. J. D. Ormond. '■;..< Tlie Hfln. J. -• D. ORIIOND 1 ' (Hawke's Bay) thought that to allow:, one judgo alone -to.| deal with important'cases ,wns-undesirable. The option , should not he in the hands of the Coiirt to'say whether or not assessors should bi> employed.' Eeferting to' the.Native waste lauds-he deelated-j that the. area-that might bo taken up-ought to be. dpubled. Unless tlio : area.Tero increased,- settlement r of "those lands would- .be retarded. JTo- further, delay should lie allowed jit, the matter .of- making Koldßre 6f customary lands obtain titles.' With rcghrdte tte Maori I>and ! Boards .tho work which they wsid bo required to perform, was 6t-fench greatTlmpertence that competency of their members ■ should be undoubted. It • was onite to,:expect to get the. right doss of member for- the remuneration prov vided—about, the same . as that, for messen-. gers. -He thought .that such enormous powers should not be'placed-in'the.hands.of- a president, assisted by such. assistants ns he would get'under" the terms'proposed.,,lf the Bill were' carried-out as it stood it would mean: the creation of -numerous Departments which Would within a-year ihave to be dono, awaj: with and a-frosh start, m'ado. Thero-.wero in existence trained bodies which would .be 'ablo to , do the-work ten. times,-as well; as the Courts which it was proposed- to;'establish under, tho Bill. He could.not conceive how it was possible that the Bill'could have passed through the other place "or, como, from the Gb'vernm'cnt in its present condition. .'.- ; .■-.-.

]Was the Bill Properly Considered? ■ ' It .was common-talk 'that'.most of the Ministers' never '. siw the Bill , befp'ro it. was iritroUuccd,; thfit' it never ■.irent before Cabinet, and was. noyer ■' properly, considered.'-.; If ; that. woro trun it' was a, scandal! that, a Bill , of. the" ,Xihd that • purported , to. provide tho- most important Native land legislation .that had ever been' brought. down ! should; not have been pro-, herly.'considered'boforb, it w-ns;introduced. ■ . Dr., Khdlay: :.;Tour: for that ; /is wrong. V\ '■' • '-.■'■■'■ -'i -''"'''•■":' l ■"!,'-■ '~ '■', '■ . ■Mr. Ormpnd: Spvcral mombers. of, rarliameilt hiivo' told 1 iho',thai'of : tnoro than • one "Minister eaish";was tht'caM."■ ■ ■ -vAf- , ■■ - ; ■";.-'-,■■ "• - : - v

' Dr. Mndlny: You' might givo' us tho complete' chain , of tho ovidenco. ■ ' , :■''■ ',-■'■ Mr. Ormond: You know very well that very few of your colleagues.know: much, about tho Bill:. '. ■': . -•" ' ■■■.••■■■•'■■.■' ■>'. Resuming, Mr. Ormond - said ■it • was .his opinion that tho.- time had arrived when' the' unoccupied : waste. Native .lands should, bo brought under' tho■■ same conditions as. tho" occupidd 'lands of ■ the ' Dominion; ; Provision should be inserted' in the mpasuro fixing .a , time within which that should be done. Ho was '■ very disappointed ' that •■ the Government had not given effect; to its promises to bring down Native land.legislntion'which would;place; the lands on a proper footing and'further tho settlement.of them. '. ."■ '•'■•' ■.■.'■ -■■'•

Administration. . '■■ , :; \ ■■ ■.--■■. The Iloit' O. SAMUEL '• (Taranaki) referred: tn. the revision which tho. measiire, had.underKOiio'. Although great.care,had been , .exercised, iti could riot bo surprising, if 'numbers of: ambiguities were. foun,d. There would be great difficulty, in connection with .the. work: of ■■the, boards. Tho success of the mcasuro, would depend to a' great extent, upon the choico of thoso who wore appointed-to administer it. .In the past, ho regretted to say, the way in which Native laud affairs Chad bqen administered had not been such as to encourage habits of in : dustry and exactitude. • Touching upon the purchase of land from: the Natives in the early: days, Dr. Findlay bad', he thought,' cast a reflection on ; many worthy early, settlers. ■• ..;-.• - :...'!■■ ■' ~; ' Tho Hon. WI.PERE (Hawke's Bay) said the oulv part of the Bill which would beneht the Natives' was'that portion : under which it jtas. proposed to extend tho advances to settlors ■ svstem to. them. The reason why. the Govern-ment-did-, not'lend sufficient money to the Natives was that it'knew that'if they: improved their lands' they would then' ■ refuse . to. Bel them. He wont 6n to say ■ that he- himself cauld'do witK:tho whole of the.amount which it- was proposed to■'. earmark, ipr-: advances -to Maori settlers.: As regards the Bill os_ a'.whole, ho thought it-would be only, a little while, before it would produce flashes of lightning, aml-'peals .of-thunder.' ■... v -,, •■: '■■•■•'■ .■.".-•' ,: The power of alienation should: , not, be allowed in connection - with' Nativo lands..- , Hβ. thought, the-present measure , -was brought, in to catclv votes. If; things .'went on'as.-they woro going, the Maori, would' soon bo found under the white man's stablo. ;. :'■'.':

Dr. Findlay Replies.. •;.'.'■;.:• .'V. , , ..Tho Hon. Dri.TFINDLAY sai.d.that.if all,that cduld bo said • against the Bill; : was said by Mr.''Ormond, there:werebutfewdeTects in" it?. •Evdrybody knew that Mr.v.Orm'ond'.was-,, oiie; of-tho-riiost experienced-members in-iconnec.tion with' the-Native' land;problem.-..'As-'it: stood,; tKe, Bill'constitutdd >: the, biggest stride.rwhicb: had bcenmado in^legislatibn'-of'.'.the.kin'd. 7 He ch'allehgCQ'.-Mi'.' Ormpud tb. : V'say. measure did contain complete^facilities for, gettmg : Maori land;iJ • he-, had -the'-energy. aJid ; money-to get it. : . There' had 'been,a-'suggestion: that-tho,Bill-liad'not: been properly ctjhsider,ed; Ho;might point put that,the,praptieal..side.had not been , wanting, in:legard'.-to.its-completion; Ministers had well..considered.the Bill.'before, it. Was brought down. For himself,"he might toll members that lie had- been' .more Engaged on.-tho Bill beforo it went' before . Cabinet ;than on any other' 8i11.'.-He defended th'e.limitation of areas,, on the .gTou'rid. that much of tho country: was suitablo'.'fto;: The. time, had pome when, the areas: provided- for■ settlors would have to be reduced as the;, (luahtity:- available- was limited'. , -If the salaries:of :meinb6rs of -the boards, other.-, thnn 'the. -presidents ;were top : small; they could be increased;; Similar work had,been performed :'during : the.. past,; few. years satisfactorily, at, thV. 6ame .'rates- as-'were propose!; -There',were.'soins , people who held thafthe.only solution of,the ! 'Native:land prbblera'wa3 to' allow.free-trafflb'in those: lands'. Sis' had-not over-straineil the:position,-nor.had : he: .said anything, that- was .untrue/when, he'had'.asserted• on the previous . evening .-thai':, if : .free-' tradb in, Native.'lands, were' again,. allowed,,,as was • possible. under:, the 'Act'.of"lß62, the; same disgraceful "results, would bo: produced asi.wero .produced:;47.'years'.ago.':.'. ....-; -.- ;:■:•■ ■: ■The Hon.: Wi Pere: Thefe m'uch : .:talk' on 'the' Bill; Ybuv should • s'ayo: your: valuahlq .brtath.--. ~.•.■;■.'. :".-'-:v:- : --,.vi ■.;;":' . ;:!,.. ; "'y;'!.

\T)K. ~ : tho, -hpn-rgentlenian .can't, sec-his7way ', to.:,behaye''rhifcsslf' I;. mnst.: tike proceedings alongi Constitutional/lines. •..'/,'' • 'Eesumihg,,pr; Fin(llay:sai(l,'ho:was'surprised.' that, Mr. ;Sainuel.' had ; -thought;that .he':had been , . uiidnly severe "in\ his , ', criticism: of --the: methods- by. had'in; thV early days- obtained : Native land. ■ If .freetraffic iii such .lands woro i. again, proposed, it. would at onco be condemned-by tho-Council. ' ■Mr. Samuel: I am. just as. much.opposed'to free-trade in Nativo lands,,as any ■,other:niember. .Neither, myself -nor': anyone- who' is akinto me-has over, purchased' a'single'irich,<bf!.Nd-. tive land., ' - • '■'- wotii-xivl •'.■.Yni'-, '■'■: -''poA '.'Dr.: Pindlay, went ; '.'"oif:'tb , ' r say". ; thats;he'wbij , sui6:'that''Mr. 'Samuel'wbuld-.-agree .with" him , that.a lot of land'r.that-'was , 'ac(imrid''.frdnj-'-|lie' between. 1862'...and .'ißßo',.'was; pbtiinen? by. ■ methods, which ,coul,d ■,only;. b'6 V.cohdemncd a-9 perfidy and chicahory.. ■■ :•■■•■■•:■ .: '■,■•:■ ... The:'second , .-, reading iof ".the Bill 'j-was-'- then agreed ■to;.- ■■ ■;•'.■■; -''■'■':■;'.; '■',"■•'.;' '- ' .■..'•'- '■'.-''.:'■' There'.'was'no :disonssi6h,whilst ]'the. being'put through the; Coninbitteei stage,: wHicb. occupied about. ten minutes/ '..'.'. , ■■','■ ''••■';.-'. '.- The Bill was;tlien read a>tnifd:time ',ahd passed; ' '.'■" '■: ■'■','■" ' ■'■.■•''■.-';'•," '. s ;'■■-. ''.■%■■'[ ■)•■

COAL>MINES AMENDMENT ;BILLy,!; I ■'.'■'.'■• : 'finally- deal? ■■; with! • :''< '■; "\i? ! ■■jVliilst tliis. Bill':'was ,bejng. dealt ■ with\*. i'u Committee, ■', • ■-. .' " ■■• ■ ':v -.'•-.'•■ (■■•■ ':'•.'■•:■ , The Hoik CivM.S LUKE, (Wellington) pto-" tested ; against',-the. : ; 'iuclusidu''.of sbectioi t!, , .which, provides , t"or nii, 'increase);in. tie.cota- , peiisation 'fori.'accidents', rw-v , ' .-V ; '-.■'(;'«.••'■■'■;.. ■"■ ..The Hon.-!Div.{LUNlJLA:Ysaidi:i.t:was":true' , tjiat the'.clauses had been the in';, 'stance', of' a':private inemljer, but ; the, .Government had.sinboy adopted ,it..; : .'.,'.,•:;:' ;':.: ..'•,''V : ■\ '.Upon'.'a , ; division,:;the .clause'■\vas/:ietained, the.voting:being—',,.-' : ..> :.-...,... ■'■:■■!; ■'■■• ;■'':;.. ':'-.. .! I'oT the clause.-(15): Kndlay,' Macdpnald, Trast, Paul, Joues, Jenkiison,'GilWor, »Barr, Beelian/ Lb.ugbudn, !li'Cardle, u .'.'Baldey, Marshall, ,LoTiisson,> and■;'Beeves;;-.:';'V|; : '.; : :.- ': ■, > . Against-'-the' - clause ,'(12): Luke', \.Carncr6ss,' Baillie,<l.'. ; .Jf.'"Smith', G46fge,':Collins,• Orm'ond, ifiUer.vAnstey,; Wigram, •M'Gowan.'ian'd'Saui-: uel. , 'Y- "■■•" : '',:;. : ■.•.'•■'■''■ .'■■•?'' ~!■■■.: i' , ';-. ; ;, i •■:'■.' ,, : ,, •'" .The-Bill 'was,' later.;read" a.' third' time; and passed;' ';"'■ '. : ,!'•'■''.--'■, : "',- : i :''.'■ '.''''••.!'.'. ■'■',•'.■''" ''.'

: ; PUBLip.:WQRKS;.AMENpMENT;:BII.L.;;; ; ■;■''; Upon the-. motion. of 'th'o';Atfornej;-Qeneral this Bill: .was, recuniniittea.i-: r-'i '; . '...."' .-.,: .' The ■ . AT'i'OKJSii i -Uii:\KliAL : ! moved ■' •' Ihnt Clause B,;W,hich proposed - : :'t6 amend; Section 117-Vo£? the- principal i Act,'.should', be , deletedi H!o jaid'.that there., was'; .widespread, opposition to .the, clause: : The.'Government! :'proposed ,to consider amendments'.to : Section.!l?;iiext j .year. ; .Tho. Hon. 0. SAMUEL r ('i'aranaki) -. said that 'thousands of. people;.would, be ,thankful..if,.the clause were deleted. .'■■'.., : "' '" : ■. ■ ."■■".'■": : Tlte.pronosal to amend the Bill wasladoptedJ' The' Dili was, ■■ later,,, read ; a third ., time, and passed.' ■ -. ; ./" •- : ''- ■ : ; - : . v ' ■.-.' j - ■ : . ,; ■'.*''

. LAND. FOR SETTLEMENTS BILL; y i ' 'AJiIiENDMENTS^NOT-INSISTED; U^oN.'; ; - The-Council'considered the, reasons assigned by the House of Hepresentatives for'.disagreeing with : the .amendments of the Council' in tho Land for • Settlement's A'dmihistratioh Bill. •The Hon. Dr. MNDJjAY said that some: of the amendments'-did .infringe: the!,privileges of. the House, but" others wero,;.iri his. opinion, witiin the rights, of the; Council. ,'As'.it was possible "that tho. session-might, como. to. an end in hvo days, members would not'do'anything which, might prevent ■■ tho : Bill, frota -.becoming, law.this.'year. Tho • intention of tho Government,.was to: amend o ...the clauses .by Governor's'.Message,,in.substantially the;same maiincr as.the Council,had done. 'He .would,, therefore, move, that ..whilst tlie CoiAncil .'did npt'in. admit,that'it , had- entrenched on! the privileges' of ; . the' House, it did not insist' on - its amendments, for ■• the reason, that it,'dosircd to,avoid the"list of losing.the B.ill owing' to .thie,-late'"st4ge'. of'the. Bessipii,|'an.d that this concession's not; to.be drawn: into a precedent :: '.''.■■'•! :.'."'. ;, •','■-.''. i.'" . ! ... . The was: adopted. ... ....... v

NEW ZEALAND STATE; ADVANCES BIIX '■'■ QUESTION'OFIAMEifBMBNTS.'-,' , ,' As tho House had disajjreed'Vith the -'amend-1 nients mado by the Council to this; Bill,: on the' ground that tliey iufringed'-'tho; privileges of -,tUo House, tho matter ■ was 'ifurther '•' considered. .-:•-•■ •■'' ' !':' !■■'■■ -'" ■■: ■■' '?' ; Tho Hon. Dr. EINDLAY said he thought", tho Council had no 'right:to hiako '66Sno: of the amendments.' .'..That • remark ,did ~not 'apply • to tho amendment to .Clause ; 18, j'to; the : effect that tho. Council,, as wellas the H6u6C,': should be consulted as to the amount',to-bo;authorised for-advances, to'local. authorities each: year; Tho difficulty was, 'hdwevor, thatHhe' Conncil could not insist' on some 'amondmcuts; land give way on others. Ho would undertake that tho Tights of tho Council in; tho- matter, of consultation , ! would 'bb- 'preserved'; in--an amondineut 'to bo.; brought down by .Goyornor's Message.', '.\'. ' ;■'.. ".' "..' ':'/ . .r':'.''■•(:■' ; ' : -\ . ■; ■•■ A":rcsolntion, similar - in.-,olfpot: to • that; , moved with rogord:.to,the amendments"mad<S'. : .tof,tho Land, for -SottlemontsvAdministration :Bill wtis S reposed and corniid-.by,--12'..votes :to ;5; itho issentiehts • boing:. the -HoDs.-Paul, Barr, i G,' J,-Smitli, Orm'oad,;and:T7lKtam,:,-; . ; -■

; ' TVV.O; BILLS PASSED. •, ..:'■' '.. The'Stamp '. Duties Amendment' BUl'aridvthe King ■' Country Licensing ' 'Bill*- were passed through' all stages without amendment. ... The Council at' XH:4S. p.m.),\ adjourned until this,.'afternoon. ;■ -..'•-" \