THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 690, 15 December 1909, Page 5

THE HOUSE.

>; : \' !" UREVVERA RESERVE BILL. ! Wheii the . House niet yesterday'afternoon, the DFrewera. Native District Reserve Amendment Bill'. (the : Hon. J. Carroll) was introduced and read a first, time, the second reading be'ng-set- ■ down for to-day.;..; .! '■■'■ ,• . . " ' ' . ,?';'•'SHIPPING.;AND 'SEAMEN BILL.' ■'; The Hon.;J. A. Millar moved that the at.end- ■ mentsmade by the Legislative Council in : the Shipping and Seamen Bill be agreed tqJ.The amendments were! quite unimportant. , ■..' ,-'■• .. The motion was adopted,! and the Bill was .passed.': "'.;■';'; ■';".■" ■■■!■'.■..." ■ '.;':'■: '.' ,':'.',, : . ;' :V; vv,!;:;;TH0-'DEFencej;'Bill.' ';>'':■'■: ; !; DISCUSSION IN : ,: '.The' Defence. Bill -was considered .•in-'.Cqm-.mittee.".;.,- . ■■■•;■ , - \ '.■'■:'■• ■■■ ' ■■-... '•: ■' ■' ;.- ; Mr. -EHODES .(Ellesmere) proposed' that "jljiuse'-l. should be amended by the substituion. of ."a .field arnbularice , ,'; for" "an-; ambulance company"'in, tho interpretation, clauses, ; but'on a division the'.amendment 'was-re-jected. ,by 37^"votes to,22;votes;'-- {■■:'■■'■■ .'. ; : the '.Committee- were considering Clause 3,.•'which provides, that.'the Governor, may divide New'Zealand,into districts, ::';.. •""MrjV-llASSEYvsought to'know how-many districts'.it: was proposed ■ to constitute. ■'.. ,-.. ... Too..Much to be, Done by Regulation. ■ : .■-.-.:' . Mr. AIiEN (Bruce) asked, in regard .to the force up to 21 -years of age, if! it would, be organised-and attached to a district or simply bp'-av force .-..under training without organisation,', and,in'regard to the Territorial force, if it -would be attached ,to any particular dis- , ".tript^or,!'for. instance, to the four chief, cen- ■ tres.■'.-■ '■.-.-' : -'-.■■■■■ ■:■ ■-...'■ .- : .' : ,'' :; : ,.. "■■■■.•'. i. .: ; . ".The PRIME MlNlSTEEsaidthat. the clause: .was similar to!orie in the"existing Act..:.-Thß; districts, would remain as at present.: :!......' :Mr. 'Allen': Where will, the ■ headquarters' ■ -be?.;:' , -::-' :; ';"'-:-f'-;,:'.:-' : ' ■.■..!.:!:..\:,';;:'v;,:i ■:., ; ! ■ '■ Sir \Joseph: I: can't give all. that jnforma- ' \tiori .now.■ ',- ~ ,'■'.'■■ ',:'.' ■;.■■!.•-.,■-■:■,;■.:;!:;■.;'■■ Mr. AILEN (Bruce),, later, complained that too much was left to be dealt:with.by,way; of regulation.' ■ He would like to know whether the senior and junior cadeti.would wear: distinctive clothing;. whether the force' between 18 and :'2l: would , be ; uniformed;;and< receive pay;'and;what Would be .tKe'position'in that regard'-in Preference;. to ; .the'-- territorials.' ''".-, : : .':-. Sir" Joseph'. Do you want all- that in the Bill?;;■■:.;;■;'■- ••": ~::-: -./:-.-..,. v-;,'. v: ,'...:- .';, ■;. ■ 'Mr. •: Allen;.; I ...think 'it should-, be : P "The D "EEiME MINISTEK said that'it was: usual with: those: "matters' ins regulations. He wont the senior and junior, cadets-would have .uniforms, .but the! general training' section would not be uniformed. Full- information-could not be given -until ho went;into!the^whole;details of ; the:organisation. : ;Mr.'' Allen:' Aad- we have'to; go: on blindly , in the'.meantime?." ,"-..: ' : \'- : : '>j":y ■■■ ;-y : v '■'■;,'.: ■' MrvMassoy Moves.;an' ! Amendment. ! • ! '..'Mr. MASSET said',ho- could see no provisionto '-the- effdctJ that bo placed;.before..Parliament:- He moved a.new sub-clause -that- the "regulations:'should- be laid before Parliiituent,-: within fourteen days, after i being;gazetted. if!Parliameht:w>s;.sitting,-and' - if notj- \ritlnn;,f6urteen.;4ays "of ithe: meeting "of tlie'House, ---'h'; - -;' : - '■:■''■['■;:'[''■''■'. Vi'- , : ! ■' "■'■!' Sir Joseph:--The" defence ; regulations :have : never been-laid before Parliament.' '.-■"'. , SH; Allen:".Would!you],allow the,regulations . to ; be" submitted' (before being gazetted) :tb a committee of : the House ?. ';;'■' V. . ■ ' ■'-, Sir Joseph: It: would- not bo workable. There is no' Defen'co Committee in England. " , . Mr. :T;:i:.".TAYLOß.;(Christchurch "-North)' , urged that Mr. . amendment 'was necessary to provide' a check; upon the large expenditure" that wonld' be, necessary under;the scheme. ::He could not see. why.:tho amendment shonld.be refused. Unless it wore they : would practically' be : ; creating a military power.' superior"'tp! the civil power. -The Govornor-inT , , Council. would be' able .to, frame 'any "regulations he'likcdl.'andi.tlie House would.not "lit. able to' revise tho regulations.. Ho asked; what iwa's the meaning of.a new clause in the Bill ; stating that .tho" regulations "shall thereupon: have: the forco of 1aw.". , ; ■• ' :• ■ ,'•'.' "V: . ."'■ The PRIME MINISTER replied .that ; all similar! regulations had, the :force' : of law now from the.time when-tho Bill' with,which they, were,connected;.camo into .force;. .. f ■"■:-.' ..., |f the: Dairy,;RegulatiqnsiHad: ; B.een Reviewed? : ".Mr.: THOMSON!' (Wallace) .hoped that 1 the Prime Minister 'would -accept amendm'onts.' to the.'.clause.'-'.An attempt was being made from Aiicklaiid: to fix. upon- this country! a compul- • spry system .that in a;few years would .become a curse to ;the, country. ..The regulations'should be J to Parliament befpro they had the" force of law. •'. .What]:was':done with the dairy-regulations?. -(Laughter.) He agreed with' the-views ..expressed by Mr. Taylor.. \They: ! did not know ■ when a' system: of complete" compulsion "might be "brought anto. - : operation. The'.'.number;. of. the .-.'permanent-'force:-'.should ,bo ; - fixed. v ; " ; \ : :'. '.■-'-■.■"•■■•'■ "i. '.-■ '.'■■"■■■'.'.■•;■'.■'■'■ . "'Mr.'MASSEY;:stated that if the scheme was . to ■ be,,mado! '■<a' success, the. .utmost, publicity inust-bo iß'V?n to .what, was being done, .and ■tho .manher!inwhich : the. people's money was ' being expended. ■■ He 'read from the 'Territorial .-Forces/Act-of 1907- to show that the-British procedure went: further than was proposed . by. his: ttuiendment. ; The! clause under ■ dis- ; oussion. was'the:, most important, in the Bill. If .the amendment was,not passed, they'would be ;'giving,:-the'Defencp Minister and his cpl- : leagues for ,£IOO,OOO, and allowing them-.to, dp what ;they liked with it. That '. was a position to which ho.would not agree.: Premier Defends His. Attitude. :. :' , -The- PRIME' MINISTER "said; the position under the old Act: was 'that the regulations had to be ■■gazetted, and came into-effect from , a- date.: therein .prescribed. It was' .further , provided that no. such regulations should be - adopted :: if: they were .repugnant, to the pro■i visions of the Act. Similarly in this Bill it ; was provided that the Governor could make , regulations-not inconsistent, with this Act, , for'any. of. the following;/purposes . (the purI poses were then set.out).- The position had , been the same for many years, and no harm ' had resulted.! :.;.■'!:";:!: ,-;,.-.■ I : A member pointed :out that one. of ■'.the pur- • poses set put was "anything deeme'd:necessary for ■ effectually carrying this Act into effect." -Mr. 'AIjLEN said that Parliamentary .super- ' vision was, the more necessary, in that nearly : everything would be done by regulations— '' expenditure, pay,' accoutrements, clothing, were J -all-deft".to-'thenu- The House had gone too : far , in relaxing its cpntiol of expenditure.'Ht ■ would'mpve an. amendment that the-regula- ■ tions should bo. submitted tp such committw ; ;as'.they'Hou'so : 'mighf>:direct. •-'.. •'..' '■''■•'.- '"•■■:■■ I, ■ iMr. -~ M'LAREN •. (Wellington ■ East) sup- ,.' ported tho:'alnondment.' The regulations musi - bo" "consistent' with the-Act,": but what wat ' meant by that? Ho objected to provisions it '' the Bill for punishments apart from the Civil -, Courts. '".. ' ' ■-".':..- ■■■'. , ; ■'-'"..,.■ ' 'The PBIME'.MINISTER said that not ashil- ! ling of expenditure, could'.take place without , the/authorisation -of .Parliament.-,- , : .;!'. '~ ; ' Mr. 'AlleniOh, we all know that. ': ] '■:'■"■- '■ ■■ f. Mr. :I2ll|, (Chrietchurch South) argued that flif ; 'no.«itidn "had been sufficiently safeguarded .-: under, the ; Act. of. 188 G. ~.,:•■,■ ".■ . ;.-Mr. Massey:. We're doing a great deal more _v now.■:•-.'.•■■ ■-.';■'. ~'•' ;■■■■.-': .■■:.•■':..• ■.■V^: ■.'.--. ..-' •:■:::■_■ [■ Mr. Ell ; replied that provision ' was ■■ being ' ntado for.territorials instead of , .volunteers.- Ho saw nothing , to be alarnied about. . ''■■;■'• r B Mr. Hogn Supports the Amendment. b. !. Mr.., HOGG he hoped the 3 l'riuie' Miuister. would be' reasonable. The i ainondmont, was , only in. the. cbii- :-. serving the'limited power and privilege tha! - .'Parliament ought tp enjoy. If,the' regulations e ' had'not been submitted to Parlkmont before, :-■ it; was time ;to amend, that course./ Perhaps [1 that..wiv tho-'Teason why tho volunteer v S y S . • ;i - torn had: bo«n so -far from a. success'.' ' He a thought it ..was highly' desirable that-" these . J regufations,.comprehbnsive as'they were, should

. bo periodically submitted to the ■ House. . Hβ ■ hoped-that the Prime Minister-would , still give way.and accept a reasonable amendment, even ! though it came from the Leader of the Opposition. ■ Mr. Alien read extracts from the. English ■ Aot•■.- to show that all regulations had to be submitted to both Houses of: Parliament withi out.delay.' ■;-. , . '.. ".. .'. The.Prime -Minister:. The; system we are fol- ■ loinng'has.been in force, for,' 23 years. Tweedledum and Tweedledee.' ! ':''. !■ i .Mr.;. LAUBENSON!(LyttoIton) thought" that , tho difference.between what the::Prime..Minis- ! ter offered and what the Opposition wanted , was a .difference between' Tweedledum and . T-iveedledee. (Opposition members; Ohl- and laughter;) The regulations would be printed [ in the. public Gazette, .which could be seen . by everyone, and to'speak of tho necessity ; of placing tliem , before Parliament was'only ; raiding : bones of contention. % , •Mγ.' THOMSON (Duncdin North) deprecated , tho-suggestion of Mr. Laurenson that the Opposition - ( wanted to obstr.v.ct the Bill. They were all anxious to help the Prime Minister : put.the Bill through, and in this matter they ; wero only: conserving ■ tho 'rights of the House. . A; Change of Face. -.'■..','■ . ; Mr. FISHER (Wellington "Central) asked if Mr. Laurenson remembered liow, >iu-. June, : 1905, whence was not.Whip to the .Government party, but in strong opposition to.them, he v quoted from the defence regulations, and pointed out how ludicrous they were, and cislced that the regulations.should come before , Parliament for review. V Mr. : Fisher read t lengthy extracts from. Hansard of that date, j amidst the laughter of ■ members, and stated t. that, I " Mr.'Laurenson had/enlarged''on the:absurd ,character of'some!bf the regulations as - an.argument in favour of;their to Parliament; Now that tho Opposition" was urging what he himself had' previously urged, . Mr.'.Laurenson described the question at issue . as . the difference , between:' Tweedledum and i Tweedledee!' Mr. Fisher, continuing, said it 'would''require a- Philadelphia lawyer to make j anything of tho defence regulations. They were amended three: times> a week everv week in the year. : He strongly supported the ' amendment. . ,'.-■■.■.■.-.,■. A Withdrawal Wanted. ;!,: ; '','.■' ' Mr. LAURENSON denied':that he.had made . a.speech to :«rge, on Parliament, the mistake - they were making in "not- insisting that all . regulations should be laid on • the : table of , the House. He had never made such a statement: He. had never asked that a single regulation of those qiwted should; bo laid , on the ; table of the House. Mr. Fisher should withdraw his statement.' •■ '. '■ - : •■ - •• j ; Mr.-FISHER said he had riot had time to read . Mr.Laureuson's, speechright through, but he found , - in it. these; words:—"l\?ant .to impress .. upon.the.Government this fact, that the sort of rubbish ithat I have. ; meritioned is not what the country: wants' in'.connection with the a<i- ■ ministration of the Defence '• Department. It cbmmon-sensel" :'.''. .-..::■ -.-■.■ -.-- >.- -Mr. Laurenson: Exactly. '"--■ ""■•.-■; ■■" ■■. -.'" ) . t .Mr.iFishcr:-Then.lhat's : wh4t we'want. : " ' Mr. Laurenson repeated' his demand for a ; withdrawal;' and Mr.- Fisher-.stated that if t hethought he'had been misrepresented so far ■ as" the actual-words were■ concerned, he was ■ quite willing, to withdraw,' but Mr. Laurenson had urgedon the Government,the advisableness >'; of. allowing.tho House to discuss the Tegulai: tions..-.- .'• ■'■ •:". ■-.. '. ;.,;:., . - - ■;■■'"• Mr. Laurensbn said he wanted an unqualified ! denial of:the .statement that he-asked-that the regulations 'should'be- laid on' the table of ■ the. • House. Mr. ■ Fisher," he said, could not have given' him .a-better-illustration of his argument ; than the quotation, viWch showed that it was ' open, to any member of' Parliament to bring : any one'of these regulations;before Parliament • without.; their , being! laid on the table of-tho i Hou'sel : ~'.:.!' ■•■ . ' ■•.'■■■ , . -I , - ,-'■; . ':■.-■■-■.' ■', ! . Mr.-Fraser:'Hecould not" alter it, though. ; ' Mr. Laurenson: replied ■: thit' if the House thought that a regulation' was improper, it could s order an alteration. :: ..,. :; '■'-.• ) What Harm! Would Result? v , ■..'■]':'. ; ■Mr; : said ho ; had not 3 .-.' heard .what; harm ' would done if. the a'merid- [ nieht: was : agreed to' •"' He' had ' heard what ' good would .follow, -and-he would like ..the J Prime "Minister to, , say : what, "his objections •' were, , , so .that he might, have ..both sides of "the 1 matter'before him. r . : -■■'■.:■■.' ..' ■ ; Mr. EUSSELL (Avon) declared . that: : he 1 could not-seo what all the bother was about. Members, seemed - to forget' that ' they were : ! -withiu'-afewdays of tho end of' tho ■ session.: , Therp '.was very little - variation ■ between tho t clause..' in. the Bill and the previous law, and J it was/only, a difference of terms. Ho thought ' that there would be. no harm if the Prime I Minister agreed,tb:iay the regulations on the : tabloiof the House: , ; They'.should'not,'how- , j ever, he liable' to, criticism,; line by line, by t. the! amateur generals of > the/House.': "If that ; werel.'allowe'd the 'House:.would, need, to-'sit s for the whole year. ' ' :. .' . . .'iMr.XPOOLE , .(Auckland' West) alleged that 3 some of the . Opposition 'members - were ■ not i anxious'-tp'expedito;the.i.passage,;of:,tho . Bill-.'-He saw no", need-for the amondment. ■•'■';■ 5 Mr. MASSEY said'the, Extracts read from : the: English; Act showed that every regulaI tionj-Order-in-Conncil, or .-.scheme! in conhe-c----3, tion with, defence! matters'put. forward by the ! Imperial Goverument must bo submitted-to ' the- Imperial Parliament within-a certain c number of days. Ho wanted.to know if they '. were tp : be less careful' of the interests of. -, their ; constituents: than the members of the - Imperial Parliament. Therp was no proposal ', in his amendment-to. have, the regulations ' submitted to the committee, and pulled about J on the floor of the House. ; ' - ' Mr.HANAN (Inverca'rgill)', opposed tho amendment. the regiilatious -were" placed I S n; IID,l ID ,v tablfl of.the House,' they could only be-challengedi by a motion, which was open to be talked out: or treated as a wantof con- '. fidenpe motion. .'.."■ ".' ■■•,'.'■•-■ . A: Division.':.' •■•'■'. ■■.::■;■;..'.'.■'■ ,':■-■■,:■'['■■■■': . amendment was rejected . by 3 42 votes to; 31. ■■•.:. ~"■' . ! ,'. : : s •..'..-..•.'.. j- ..-The:following is the division list: . ".-.'. : -. '':,;-,;.;■ .^?::\ : .: /Ayes, ,3U ""' ; './" '" '■ ; j Allen ; : - '""-.■' :.'■ Luke •'.'' ■■;- : " 1 -,-.-- ; '';■■■' i : Anderson; M'Laren I Bollard ;,'- :'!.;- -Malcolm '': j Buchanan •: :Mander , . ■■'" :■ 'B.uick:'! : '■-.■'■ . ; .. Massey. - . ~' . ' ■ .'. Dive ■~'-."- . , . :.■ -Newman ' - -.•-■'.' ■ " :Buncan;j. :•:;■. -.Noswprthy: •".''■"■■. ' j .Fisher," ;. . '.vOkey , '----' '..■.'. ; ! . :. Fraser::.; , V ::' . : Pearce - : !' s Guthrio : . : : ■ . Phillipps ' „ -Hardy ~:.,.-.•„,■,,, Rhodes: .. - '.'■ j :Herd_man ;: :■ -V. 'Scott.. ■ :■'.-..-. s Hemes- ; . -■''■".-•■.■:■■■ Taylor, T. E. '.'■'' j Hine; •■■ -. .--. Thomson, G. M. : . li /Hogg. '.'!•"■■"' "■■"- ..Wright - ; (1 ;Lang ;.: : .... ;-,-■. ":.- :'. , !■ ■.■.',."■■. -. • ■ i- :'.■'' !'.'. '"'■ "'.■' ','.■' ! : Noes, 12. '.- : ; .; ; '. ■;. ■ I. Arnold ■ . . : " "'.Laurenson -.-,'"' ' d Brown '■.-:■':'.■."' . ...Lawry:. • : ' [- .Buddp- •'-. :■■ ;■-... ; ' Mac Donald : ■ g Buxton'.., ••,-•■' .• ;; 'M'Koiizie,' Hon. R. ! .t i Carrol I',- ,! -' Mackenzie, Hon. T. - ' ClariJ. : :, v . ; ■•Millar,., ' < '. ...Cblvin '''!'■ ;: >. :'-..Ngata •■■■■-.-, ' ':, -.. : :■ Craigie. • ■". ■• . ' Parata „ ..." '! n Davey Poland s Dillon ■ -.•-. • . Poole: " - h . Duncan, Hon, T. Reed ' : --\ '" ir Ell : : ■-' ■-•"•■'- Ross ; "■■'•■' ' •:-•■-■■• ■"• e 'Field:..:, . . ■ '-:. - Russell." ; ■..'."■ j. ' Forbes • " ' Seddon,' ..' : it Fowlds - ':■- ■! ■ • ."■ Sidey - . . :e ;\. Glover :-;. :,.-:,:Stallworthy fc Graham ■ ' Steward' !-. Greenslade '"■.-,■ ■ ( Taylor, E. H. . d 'Hall ■-.' r,- , -;, .'■'.. ■■;■■'."' Te/Eangihirpa . n Hahan ■'' 'Ward ... . ; . ;■: Hogan.: i : :. /'Witty.:-./:.:,. x ". r-" ■' ': ■ -■■■'.- . ■ '. ■ ■ ' .■■."'•."■'■' ."■'■" ," y Right of Appeal. ■..-..-.- - .-.'..,. Mr. T. E.' TATLOB (Christchnrch North) r- moved a proviso to the end of Sub-clause 2 J of' Clause ! 4," to-the effect that any .-person ~ serving in ' any section of the defence forces ' e in. New Zealand whd might bo charged beforo |°' any ■ military tribunal with an offenceagainst k the reguliitions should have the right of appeal l - to a. stipendiary magistrate. - ~::.). . 50 ./The addition, was by, 52 votes to. 9.' P- Mode-of Selecting Officers. ' ;/'.-.' f s Mr. MALCOLM (Ctatha)/moved an amendment to Clause 5 (which provides,; inter alia, m that may appoint tho ■ officers .of the'defence forces)^to the following i/ oll'ect:—"Subject to tho provision that every I- !cdmpany in the Territorial forces! may- elect ■ all tho company officers thereof." L He held ! that as a rule-companies selected men who i would ■ lead them capably rather'! than , men j. whose only qualification was their popularity. Q In tho, South African War, Britain did little good until many of the original ;■ officers became; incapacitated,-V or in, somo /other, way ' ! were roplacod. - , ', ■ : ■"-. / -, •»" -: 'Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) ;spoke strongly against ■ companies being-allowed to elect their own '.' officers. ■'/. ...■..'■.:' ,■.,.,".■'.-■;•. ~ ;: ■:'../-.. . 'Mr. RHODES (EllesmerpLfavoured thoselec- - tion of officers as, prpposcd/in the Bill. '■'. ■-■•■ :e. -'Mr.- WTI'TY' (Riccartbn), , who supported tho' i.o amondmoat,' , twitted, Mr. Hardy and \ cither 1-. members' with" hot haying had ■ military oxit poribheo. , ' !'/.-. . : : .: " ' . . ■ ; - ■,-■'•■-.• /' .. is /■Mr;'.,Hardy:: Why,... I.belonged. -tc a 'corps D, boforo .'.you.-wero born, and I will help yoluri-. is teering after'you aro dead. ■ (Hear, hears.) s- I.Tho PRIME MlNlSTEß.declarod that tlin old to' method of/selectibn ,-, had •: not; been ','satisfactorv^ » and ■ that the: new: metjibd. would ■ be ■ the' ; beil ,d in .connection with the;Mw '■.-■' ..

, Mr; FISHER (Wellington Central) said .that if tho meii were allowed to go into camp when it pleased them, they: might not' receive instruction uudor their own officers. No system was satisfactory unless it providod for n test. Tho PKIME MINISTER saidit would depend to a largo extent on local circumstances. There was lio.' reason why companies should not go into camp under their own officers. Mr. M'LAREN (Wellington East) remarked that if tho universities were used to give training on the subject,/it would lead to -class distinction. •.•'{':'• , Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) contended that as the universities were open: to all, class distinction coiild only bo a bogey. Mr. MALCOLM (Clutha), in reply, asked supposing Parliament wore formed into a company would members prefer to elect their' own officers or would they allow the Government to elect them for them?The amendment was rejected by 56 votes to 9. The Council of Defence. '.-. When Clause 12, relating to the Council of Defence was' undor consideration, Mr. ALLEN' (Bruco) thought the council should bo constituted on the basis laid down by the Imperial General Staff. There was," in his opinion, no need for the Minister of Defence or for a Finance member to be on tho council. ' ; . ■ The PRIME,MINISTER said it was desirable Now Zealand should maintain a system similar to that in vogue in other' portions of the Empire. First'of all, ho had contemplated doing away with the council, but had later dropped the proposal. Six on the council was, in his' opinion, far too many, and the number had been reduced. It was very important that the Minister for Defence and a Finance momber should be members of the council. Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) held that the Chief of the General' Staff should be the head of the council. Under the, existing system there had been four or-fiye heads, with the-result that they had been in-conflict nearly the whole of the time, aiid nothing effective had been done, and thero had been a:great waste of money. He would move to delete the sub-clause making the Minister for Defence president of the council. , -./ '••'-. : - The amendment was defeated by 49 to 17.--Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) then moved that there should be no Finance: member.on the council, but tho amendment was rejected on the voices. • Upon the suggestion of the Prime: Minister, Clause U, dealing with the duties of the commandant of the defence forces, was struck out.'. . - . . ■ ' .;■' . .- Position of . Permanent Force. There was some discussion in connection with Clause 17, which provides that members of the permanent force shall be subject only to their: .own: officers. - • : . Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) described" the clause as out of date.' If-such men went into camp they would not be .under tho "control, of the 'officer in command ,of the camp. . ' Mr. FISHER (Wellington Central) declared that •members - of t.ihc permanent forco were sometimes used for purposes for which they were never enrolled. " / '■"'•'■' The clause-was retained by 39 -to 29. Service Abroad, Mr. MALCOLM'pointed out an apparent contradiction between Clause 22, which 'stales tha- "no part of the Territorial force shall be carried or ordered to -go out of New Zealand," and Clause ~§9, which states that the Governor may accept" an offer'from Territorials tp subjectjjthemselves to tho liability to serve in any place outside New Zealand/' K Mr. Malcolm moved to insert in Clause 24 except' as hereinafter provided." The amondment was opposed' by the Prime Minister, and lost on tho voices... The Territorial Scheme. ■ ' ..-Mr.' ALLEN said he intended to take a division on Clause 23, which provides for the complement of the Territorial forco being: made up from the general training section. Ho belioved that the balloting of members from the compulsory training forco into the Territorials would deplete'the former, body. Moreover,' it was not desirable that young, raw members should bo balloted into the main defence body of Territorials., It-yfould have been better if in place of the Territorial force, tho Primo Minister had continued compulsory training up to/the ago of 30; ajid instead of two muster parades provided for,; as many'muster parades as 1 woindi.:be required to make'tho'men efficient.' Twenty-one parades would make them fairly efficient. . -.•-.. -,'.■ .. .. ; . . Mr. T/ E. TAYLOR (Christchurch North) prcdicted t that 'within two years the expenses of, the scheme would be cut down by ono half, and it would be entirely reorganised. . Mr. t FISHF,R asked if the Prime Minister •would--; agreo to . transfer into the Territorial force."' those who had'served longest in the training section, instead of balloting. The effect of, [balloting !might,'b'e" to" put men into tho Territorials who. had undergone only a very short term of compulsory training. ~ ,' Mr. (Wellington East) thought that the scheme could bo called compulsoryyoluntary or 'voluntarv-compulso'ry, 'Imt it was decidedly mixed. "The consent of members of the Territorials tp'oversea service would bo 'ldss'/important: than'.- the /.consent of theirofficers. ■ He objected to the !.balloting-in provision. Service innhe Territorial force should be entirely voluntary. , • ;'■-'■ , - .Mr: ALLEN moved to strike out tho words "from'the.general training.section," and providing that tho transfer to the ■ Territorials i should bo from men who had passed through that section—men say from 21 to 24 years of ago. '■-.." .- ',■'■ .' ' . : . . : The'PRIME MINISTER objected that this was tantamount to extending the age of com-pulsion,-to which he was not agreeable. He could not agree to the amendment. Mr. Fisher: Do you object to our moving anv .amendments? ■".. > - , ' Tho Prime Minister said that he did not object. Mr. ■ Allen's amendment, howover, proposed to alter tho policy of the Billi The amondment ;was negatived by' 42 votes to 23. .:■ - . .-.- . - : >■■■ -.■... :•-■• - ■■■ Mr. Fisher then moved , an amendment incorporating! his proposal. This was defeated by -to t0:24.-. -■ - , ' '. . . Assets and Liabilities pf Volunteer Corps.. An amendment' to Clause 26, which states that assets and'liabilities of volunteer corps shall pass.to tho Crown; was moved by Mr.' Allen to, limit the 1 provision to assets secured from capitation payments or ' Government grants:".'.Many, of-.the-volunteer companies, ho pointed out, had private property, to which the Crown had no:claim. ■.■■■, • ; Mr. HOGAN (Wanganui) said he hoped that the Primo Minister ;would agree to this amendment., " ; '•-•'■ ' ■■■''■ . . ANDERSON, (Mataura) read a letter from a leading - volunteer officer, who- stated that the proposed , Confiscation was preposterous. It meant taEng atfay the savings: of the thrifty to pay off the debts of wasters. " ' - Mr. SIDET (Dunedin. South) said that the State would have to take over corps' liabilities, which, might have been incurred as against private, assets. Some alteration in the direction of tho amondment 'was required, but the Government" should be safeguarded. / ' Mr. : FISHER said he knew corps which had regularly paid a monthly levy into the funds of the, company. They were encouraged to do so by a. provision in: the old Act under which companies were allowed to "divide their private property; among their members on disbanding. Other- corps had raised funds by means . of bazaars and art unions. He asked if the Prime Minister' would have this clause reserved' for further/consideration; ' Prime Minister Threatens to Abandon the Bill. The PRIME MINISTER: I think. I should consider whether I'll go. on with the Bill or not.': He thought,it was grossly unfair to suggest that the Government should take over all the liabilities, and that corps should take the- assets, whon they could not distinguish whether they .were duo. to.; capitation or grants, or what. ■ ■ -' . ' •-.-• -.-■ ■■' Mr. FISHER said he merely asked the, Prime Minister to'let the-clause stand over. ■■■"-.• Sir Joseph Ward: Well, I won't. Mr. Fisher: , Tho ,hon. gentleman; won't do anything; I suppose'what we ought to do is to allow the Bul.&igo through without any amendment'or discussion Whatever. Thafra what we're here for. ,No suggestions,/ no amendments! It is not considered the proper thing to speak on the Bill at all. ■Opposition members: It would be better for the'-Opposition. . ' ;' . Further Debate on the Clause. . , Mr. FISHER urged that they were trying to make it a better.Bill. The Prime Minister know that they could put the Bill kite-high. The Prime Minister: I'don,'t care whother you do or not.- .. ' ' / ■ Mr. Fisher: We'don't-want to. We want to help the Primo Minister with the Bill. The clauso under discussion was one that would do great 'injustice.' ■ '• - ' / The PRIME MINISTER said that no one could discriminate as to the origin -of assets, arid he could. not make a present of all theso moneys to the companies. He.would not hold up tho clause for.that purpose. Tiie Government had been assisting the companies from tho beginning.' He-would send the Bill kitehigh himself, and be done with it. He would not .accept tho amendment.:. - : . ; .■ • ' Mr. DIVE (Egmpht) supported -'the - amendment. He had'a leMer fronra volunteer corps which had- assets.-ifint no liabilities, nnd objected to tho assets -belng: taken-by tho Government. ,".: . ; -.-: '■-.■■■■"■ .'■ '. ■ '/ ■-■■■ -. ■•• -'■■ ■llr. HOGAN (WaiißanuiJswd-that the only prb{)orty of the, corps ;which; belonged to t.ho! Govorntrxeut wna the artns'/nhd accoutrements. (Mr. , :Allen:. Not always';the necoutrements,) If all' the corps, diibanded, tkat' ytae ail th»

Government would get back. The, cash would | bo divided among tfioir members." It was only got together by careful administration during a number of years, and it was spent on shooting prizes, rango facilities,, and other objects that made for efficiency. No.new company had any private funds. ■ • ■-.- t ßop]ying to an interjeotion by tho- Priino Minister, Mr. Hogan said the volunteers would havo beon prepared to stick to tho present system., . ..-,..■ ..." ; ■ ■:. ■ ,Sir Joseph: Perhaps it would be better if they did. ' .•■-■.•" ■ ■ ■ ' Mr..Hogan: But owing to the fact .that thoy could not get a sufficient number of men to step into the ranks along with thorn, they are forced to accent tho proposed system. : ;. Mr. ANDERSON (llataura) thought it was ridiculous for tho Primo Minister to havo talked as ho had done, because there had been protests in connection with certain provisions.' '■' .Sir Joseph: What do you call a protest? .-Mr. Anderson: Well,'! read one tin's evening from a gentleman who has been a distinguished officer. Sir Joseph: That is not the kind of protest to which I rrfpr. 'Hore we havo had a protest of from sovon to eight hours. Mr.. Anderson: But I havo had nothing'to do'with what has been done before. Sir Joseph: But I have... '. ~• Mr. Anderson: I have: just voted on ; the ..various clauses as I thought fit. Primo Minister Reports Progress, At : this stage, the Prime ' Minister, to the surprise of everyone in-the chamber, moved to report progress..-,'.. . Tbo Chairman: And to ask for leave to sit again?' -.-.- ... . Sir Joseph (after a brief pause): Yes. was reported, and.on the motion of the Prime Minister the House adjourned at 1.30 a.m. until this afternoon. .