THE ESTIMATES.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 669, 20 November 1909, Page 7

THE ESTIMATES.

FIRST ITEM DISCUSSED. The/discussion on tho Estimates was commenced at 4,pm. On t the first item being put, "sabres and otfler charges of the Legislative Council, <£135Q," . Mr. MASSDT took tho usual course of asking for,information oa various matters ' Ho said that the Pabho Accounts Committee, which,was by far the most important of the committees, had never yet beoc convened, No chairman had been appointed, and practically the committee was not in existence Ho wished to-know if this committee would bo convened at -an ear!? date. The PEIJIE MINISTER said it was proposed to.c'onvene the Pnbho Accounts Committee for fiexl weak. Up till now only one niattor that required roferenco to that committee had nrfsen. Ho could assure Mr. Massey that the committee would have ample opportunity to deal with all matters which ought to como before it. Superannuation Fund. Mr. HEKDMAN (Wellington North), in tho course of his remarks, contended that members of tno Civil Service Superannuation Tund shonld'have been consulted before tho Government determined to male a radical alteration in tho fund, by reducing the maximum pension to about .£SO Mr. T. E. TAYLOE (Chnstchurch North) said l that in a few years they would be in the "happy position of not being (iblo to cnfacisa the expenditure at all. Out of nine millions of expenditure there were- threo and a half millions which they could not criticise, because they wore permanent appropriations It was also icgrettablo that they could not move a motion, during tho discussion on the Estimates, to see if members>TvoTo,ra favour of >• an u elective Upper House. Nothing wai much worse wanted in Npw Zealand today than t constitutional reform. i ' An amendment by Mr. Massey to reduce the first item, as a protest t against the Crown Suits Act, wai lost by 29 votes to 25. Tho discussion is, given in,another column CHIEF JUSTICE AND COMMISSIONS. Mi. riSHEE (Wellington Central) said that durjngithe last,year payments had beon'made to, the Chief Justice m ewes 3 of has salary as fixed by statute. Ho would move to reduce tho tfom iy £i, ns an indication that iwhat was,'ho believed,, a constitutional t principle shouldsnotvbo allowod'-to be'violated-by tho Executive ■ Tho Judicature Act laid down that tho. salary of a judge ehould-not be diminished during tho cpnttnuauce of his commission, the object being for tho specific purpose of assuring that thcro should bo no tinkering or power of 'paponago or favour on'the part oi tho Executive or Parliament in relation to a judge lor hid 'work in connection with tho Statutes IttrisiOn Commission, a special payment wai madoito tho Chief Jnstico of .61415 In addition to that, thero had been a payment, tho amount of which, he thought, was not yet known to tho Houso, for his services as Chair- , man of, tho Nafavo Land Commission It was rather singular to nohco hrst, that m Victoria wnoft the statutes wcro revised by tho Chief Justice tJiero uas Ho payment made, and, second, if they were to beliovo tho opinion of tho puittie , * judges, .tho work of revising the statute) hat' been very badly perJormed U iwas never contomplated under tho Constitution Act or the Judicature Act that any payment would Sβ raado m excess of tho statutory jmonnt on tho volition of tho Executive. He had looked for precedents among tho parliamentary works to find out if anj ruling had peon given on a question of this soit, aad ho had/not been able to find any Ho wished tAo House to express an opinion as to whether it approved this tendency on tto part of the Administration to mako judges chairmen of comraiyions and pay them auv amount it pleased in excess of the amount iixed by statute for their j salary. If that was not, bringing tho judges within tho reach and patronage and taVour of the Government he did not know what was If there was a ngnt to increase the-salary of a judge there should logically bo a right to disease it. It was neVtr intended " that th"o Executive should interfere in any way With the remuneration of tho judged l\o doubt y thero were travailing allowances m connection with tho Native Land Commission as ■well , .lie believed that the Chief Justice had received something over JJ4OOO for his year's workj Ho had dono very well, and the only Consolation was that ho was a man who had served tho country fairlv and well

-, NU.V.BU, uie .tuumry ■jcuriy > ana wen. 'o^ ; -^'''!fe^V-.';V".fi-^'->*i.' r 'i'.'vK'' : '' v '!. v . : , '■?A-.''j-?<y& ■'■-■-'■'::. ::;-;Mr,JH6rdmanVPrDtest,;^;!;^.i : :S^vr.^ ;'/;J :^vHEßD^:(*eilington:; Nortn)t said' thaf ..: tho,.;pnnciple:jwas ior..-great.,importance, -and■ ■ ''..likelyj'; t6::;have ; considertil)le. ; 'jnnue"nce on 'tti-'- . :. : tht»t/,:the:ailnjinistratipii;6£ justiio.'was the ' ; ; Vpdrturiprint pbject.ttat \should'be: keptsteadily '■I', inivi^Wby ; all'sections of .tho;c'oniniuntty> Ono. v J of;thp,bulwarks oithe British/Constitution was; " ;;tlie 'jdsitlori of '.ihdepondence: otcuDiedby'. Bri-' : :::(in;^th.i&i ;< conntri:;Sfpiv/whioh';: Ithe:' ; '' pub- .: -.■ 116/a 'j/Md ■ "•:..respect :•'.;• and ,; ;H confidence ■'-.''' : was■ . ■:■;;the;^ vJßenbhi : ' iand/'^judges ''.'6h6ujd:ilpt':b4induced!to'become competitors for v ■'anyV-office iwnich'itha.'Government' might have- ;;.: in;;s,toro;for,' .judges'linust >;bo-kept .;,;indopeildehtf and 'be .absolutely:divorced from -;-:;pout|c&;r,On6e : .tli(3r6 : .was aroused, in the. minds' there .:...waa'ahy tendencj;..'pji.;tlw.'jiart'.'of ■-a'jndge'.'.to' they were .V.iipslStting.the ■'~-'' ■:-}-r; ho ; would ;■'■ ipost.i/HoVwas. opposed to', the ~-; eyatemjby'.•whioK/ii'ppiitical' p<jrsouage\beeanie ■■', ':;Chi4f .■'Justite.v.'pnce- a r a-judge he ; ; .vehQlildj.be'.able; to,:reqeiye. l 'nothing' from; the Z..' excopt;-aßVit'\¥er6, ; -autpmatically. , I ;Thfj',ienior ;judg<? i . should'rbo.ap'pointqd, Chief ~<: JuSqce;. and..:the|A.ttbrfey-Gerioral, if'he ,ac- : ...,ehip{'and,take his'chance ofiworJtineiup to a j..'Benlor,ijudgeship;':.The:evile'.;that could - jj /;in6noji,\yasptiid -to .judges '■■:'iniiso bo!.clear- to v:.■ ■ ev?r}':perspn;,wlio.con«idercd.the matter. : '"•■'

Mr', Massey's Views, w ' Mr. MASSBY said ho affj*id with tho opin ions expressed by tho other speakers Hβ dul not intend to reflect iri any way on the Chief Justice Ho hoped that tho Houso would givo BUch nn emphatic expression of opin-, lon inpon what had happened as ■would prevent anything of tho sort taking placo in, tfio future. It was one of the fundamental principles of tho British Constitution that tho judged should bo removed from 'any suspicion ef political influence or patronage. Thero was an unwritten law, whioh he believed was etfiatly observed in Britain, that a judge should never receive anything in addition to lm salniy. From 'any , point 6f view, what had been flono via bad and urong, and ho blamed thd-'Ooverwaont a (treat deal more thin he Wamdd the Chic! Justice. It shonld have loiowrt better than to set up such a bnd piecodent, nnd he was sorry that the Benoh of had been plaoed in 6tich a hualhating position by tho Goiornracnt. Prime Minister Ropllw. Slt' t .tOSEPH WARD said it uns to bo re-pi-otteil that the Lender of the Opposition had drawn politics into tho qncstion.

,;S Mr.'iMassey :>I :do;nbt jwant ;to ;draw;;politics. .into I did that.^v-.'..-;^^'', I .::^ ■':;:.'''^ : -'/,> 'jU : '■',>■>!: :: i< ■';Sir- ; Joseph'sfiid l that : np.politics vhadv.been; ,br6ught^jntd\tb:d.■■matto^■■so■■fn^.:■a's■^tKβ■■Qpvißr^-■ waala-rellectiOn oh the judgo' or. judges .who, had-iaocepted , positions .'on wmtnissiojis. ' -V. "■ '■ «aid he wai.willing totadniitthdt: tho- indgesi should.not ;bavo accepted these, pbsi^iona'.'-:-..■;.■•.■"'.•:■".='.• -"■■", ; ■" -■- ;■.- ••' : i>;.; .The' Prime Minister ..said Hr.'Herdraanllia r suggosted.-that the acceptance of the .position, by .tho Chief Justico was .putting him rindei , : an■ oblijTfition in some wnjr to tho Government.-. ;:Mr.'Herdman said.it might have a tendency; to create,in tbo.nibd of Vjud(;e : tho.belief; that ho under an obligation. ; ' ~- ■ ; ; . ;■■. '.! "Sir ■Joseph said that without -.doubt., thertr had. been'a'reflection on tho judges. T. :■' Mi-.'lusher: .Did tho. Chief'-Justice": ask : for;i the position or did you ; ask hiui to accept' it ? ! ; ■ Sir;: Joseph did not answer this'.inquuy..: Hβ: said ,itv.inight:;be inferred .that tho. Britishi judges,:vere never under an- obligation to'.-tho. Govcrnnieitt ;of ,the. day.-. Surely Mr. -Massey l wnsinot -going : to; ask the'.Houso to belicvo thrit? -Surely _no : ono sufigested , that -British judges word'going.to.bend to the Government 'ot-Vtho day;>. because ,of recognition ■ which.-, it • showedithem. Judges' had-been made peers,:qf the realm; arid promotions had been conferred' bn ; thetii.' '-''-;^'.--. "i' : -.\ : -J : .•'• ': -■'-■:'■; ■: T Mx. MaSsey:;.No."V; : ." ■'-;' .'■";.;;' ; ' '•.-' -..- . .'- Sir ■ Joseph ..Ward:' -iWliat 'about the Lord. Chief Justico .in-England ?■•...;';,': :";' ■'; : , Mr. Massey.: .They- 'iievcr appoint' a puisnejudge.- "(,;■.-;"-;:-■ .-.,;• .W,Uv'-:- ■;.' ;.; ; -v ■;-.': ; ; .. -,' .Who-Shquid -be •Appointed? ; ; V;: :■'■[■: '(:■ ;, ' Sir Joteph: Ward",quoted, tho".case; of •Sα Charles' Bussell case. He;■■ repeated', that, in. the'iOld Oountry. , : positions ■of high :preforni<!lit l were - conferred on, judges :by ; tlio Government of the day. 'In.New 2Ealand ; tho; position': was,':,as regards. ■;the 'Native' r land" .Commission; i that \ a great and important ■ mat-, tef.rcquiring.high judicial.and alsoMidminiS.trativo : abihtjr:.nad arisen, :aud'outside' the Bonch of .this .country >here w<!re; they to get men sufficiently renioved' froni ordinary, .industrial -life ■'■ to:carry..out ' tho work?, -/'.'■: v . ■"-.;,'..-■. v.-Mi.' Massoy; .Plenty of them." .;0 : ; , , -.. '•' The"■■■ Prime.. Minister asked.whether, if they had " appointed V- sonio ; political • -partisan, - the re3ul t ■ .would .have*, been : satisfac wry. i':' ■ ■ V-- • .', -.■'Mr,: llassey: ,You : had arreiired Chief Jus- ■ tice.j.;:;v; v.-;^\v:<: .';' • ■:. Sir- .Joseph, asked >whether,-! supposing ..a .ris.; tired;Chie£sJnstioolwas'a largo speculator, it would : .be;|..a'!vpr'op«;' thing ■:..; :to.;;'■.; appoint;■ him; Ho. wai qnito'readv, to :the tlon ''was ■BTguableV'lt-lw'os 'jWithin' tho.'provinco of.'the''House.' to isay : 'that:no :one-'.connected with:tho judicial. Benoli ;shonld. hold a Jpositiori; on\a 'commission .whioh'i.was,'paid. ': v ;.-.;.-•' ■..'- '■<,.'■: -?<[f.; : HpGG,(Maßtertdn) said he-viewed 'With disfavour 'the: system' of • perqiiisites,ci:-.eniplu-' monts : ]to'. : magistrates, -judges,' or other;'high officials;. pf-: , ;r.-'\\Tie.th > fir. ; the Governments knew.-.it :-pr hot, in -appointing: a.-judge;; to a position , in -which (he .;vvould>reoeivo;something additional,-t6 i .'his :salafy,.,-it...was..undejrminihg his independence, niid^placing; him wider;an' obligation ■t6'--ity~-'~>3 : -'-:- '■*:" :■. ■":'■:•:■■ I /;'}-■■'; v v.Mr.;:FISHER -(Wellington I the.iPrimo:Minister had; just.as : -much.i l ight:tp I .olniinVrtay; ;wE2ooo'for. representing the.-,Dominr ion .at..a" conference at?. Hbma' -as the ;Chief■ Justice,.had to^receiye : extra" payment'.for -the serVicos; in question;'."Whilst. Sir Robert "Stout was 'engaMd'on':work;,iu, -.connection : - with' Native .affairs', he; was :-'-6nly'- ; Chief Justice'.in narno." :: If. ; the;. Chief Justioe.were entitled;to extra, payment, rwhy':did the. : ,judges' who' sat on.the,Meikle-Commissibn;.n6t.receive,a grant ,for.;those Special services? !';The position '. taken up by:'those .who objected to the ..payment I ''in 1 question'was'"indisputable. . '■•; V '■-';;;; ■ : v Mr..;:'BAUMEv ■ ■; said he ..was..concerned; simply. ■ with': tho, principle, of. the rbatter.. -v-' 7 1 ;;' '•'/;: J'.s '\.:'.'c ■■•■}■.: ;\ >C : --'i'-: ' ,A; : division on the;. propa?al,' to rednce , : the .vote: resulted as follows:—Ayes, 23;" rices 1 ;30., -..'• ."'■■Tho first item. was. agreed to at 1.50 a.m.;,and .tho Houss'.adjourdedr ■;■■'■ ■:■?':; ;;'.'■';'. : i j Y: