THE BUDGET DEBATE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 666, 17 November 1909, Page 5

THE BUDGET DEBATE.

SPEECH BY MR. MASSEY. ' LAND POLICY AJiD TAXATION PRO- . POSALS CRITICISED. Mr. MASSEY,;in.opening. the debate on the. lintaicial. Statement 'in': the' evening,;said. that ,the;, Statement' was being discussed' under some, unusual circumstances., . Previous' to the loan passed 'in the short; session 1' they had. had ■ a first instalment of the Statement; this'- session; / prior to another loan Bill, they., had a, secondinstalment, ;and: :how . they hadthe Statement : itself, prior to' taxing "and other financial proposals .being dealt with. He •■thought that: the outstanding point, of; interest: in the. Statement;-wasVthey,fact that,.during. the. last financial year the' indebtedness was increased by approximately. 4} millions. It ieemed-very thftt' ii would, be increased ■by an equal or approximate amount during the present* financial year'. ,'Vliast'.year,'the', amount of" .£BOO,OOO was 'transferred ': from . consolidated revenue : to'i the Public Works Fund, but ho was afraid' that the ; day of ■ large surpluses was >gone. for a "very. long time to come/ This financial year it . would not be poesiblo to transfer anything'- from revenue . to publio works, and therefore borrowing' by the Government;, would have: to be proportionately increased. To his mind; , neither the present position hor - the''outlook: was satisfactory,: for. he could see - absolutely no -indication ron the part ..of the Government to keep borrowing down to proper and reasonable : limits, either *by, proper economy on their own part, or by. : encouraging the investment of private moneys -in this 1 country. He did not intend, to go into .details, of the financial proposals, because Vthe financial operations -of the Government had' be9n pretty fully discussed during the short'session, and the present session.: He intended to deal with the principles :of; the proposals sot forth 'in the financial : Statement, , or,..in'.somo' l instances,. he might say, the want of principle. . ..

Conduct of Business. i -'He' .was not ;, satisfied with .the ' manner in' which the business of ' the country , had -been conducted during this and the short session. It was quite evident from, what .had been said that they would have to meet again after Christmas. He did not object to. that, but they were further told, ~ and that, was what he did object to, 'that in all probability when: ' they met after ' Christinas -the. House lyould ;sit till.-iti. had .disposed or the .whole of the Parliamentary business of next, yoar. That was not fair to the country or to Parliament, and he Koppd ! that no more would be. heard of the, What: was .happening'"was" just :,wli Aio . expected during the short, session, vrhi y,,the; adjonrnrnent\ of .'Par-: liarapiit was 'proposed. : The: members who voted for that: adjournment '.'knew:, that, tliey were sacrificing . the/interests of the. country; If; thoy did not know it then they did now". A: Comprehensive Compromise, ■

'•Some .-very important , proposals were 1 set forth. in -the .■ Financial 1 Statement. .' Speaking generally,,it was a,comprehensive compromise, tut. there;.were many/reforms .reqiiire(l:in,:this country that were not; even mentioned in the Government's Anyone who compared . .the railway system with that of Australia must see that reform was urgontly, required there. It „was also urgently. required in" regard to the ,public service,- the second -branch df the. Legislature, the. financial ,systein,- and the - local . government system. As regards local' government,':tho system- of. centralisation into which thoy had got should bo ended,: and ■ the of administration spread among the moro -important local bodies, i Somothing sljould be done to improve matters in;.regard to, Crown land:.and.Native find; Thov, would never, have any real :reJsrm, .however,;: till vthe. public ..realised- that t>- ran; not ; in "the interssts

of its people or-the, country, but in tlie interests •o? the party in power and their friends and'supporters. -Ho saw no signs -of foresight, statesmanship, or patriotism on the part of .tho. people in oihce,' bnt thoro "were plentiful of .-waste, extravagance, and opportunism. he, heard the •: Financial Statement read he Uonld < not help thinking of the sick miner who, having-read the beautiful story in Revelations of tho streets of gold and gates of pearl, anxiously inquired whether that was a war* dens report of a.company's prospectus. Without doubt, they coulu compare the Financial Statement to a company's prospectus, especially when they heard its concluding remarks, and noted that, it ended up . with a call :upon the shareholders for an enormous increaso of taxation. . Mr. Ell:. On whose shoulders? Mr. Massey: I will tell him on ."whose shoulders directly, and his shoulders are not going to escape; '

Increases of Taxation. Several of, the Budget proposals, said Mr. Massey; liad "been, .advanced "by. - the Opposition, e.g., freehold tenure, national military.training, and for the superannuation funds to be placed in,a sound position.. Nothing hurt the country more than the admission by. the Treasurer that it was necessary to increaso the revenue considerably '. to ; balanco the expenditure. The Treasurer now told the people that it was necessary to increase,the .Customs duties on every iperson; to increase the income tax; to increase the. taxation from racing clubs; to increaso taxation from banking institutions j to increase the railway fares; to increase the death duties; to increase the burdens on local bodies by proposing that sinliing fnnds shall be paid % tho ratepayers;' to increase the' rentals on Crown tenants by .the repeal of the Crown Tenants' Rebates Act. The only item which the Treasurer seemed to have missed was the; collections which were taken up in the churches on 'Sundays.'.'(Laughter;)-: The Minister expected to raise an additional .£450,000; if he raised only X 150,000 more than that sum it would be well within: the mark. Under the heading primage duty tho Government proposed to raise .£50,000. The value of dutiable goods last year was JK,589,051, which at 1, per cent: would give •£85)890, or over- '} above' the : amount which was wanted from that source. .

Taxation Gradually Rising. Tho taxation in. New Zealand was higher than in any of tha Commonwealth States. It had. been gradually'rising since the Liberal party came into; power. In 1833 it was JO3 lis".' 2d. per head; in ■ 1908 it ' was ' os. 4d. per capita. The figures for the other States were: New South Wales, <£3 ; lis. 4d.; Victoria, .£3 7s. 2d.; Queensland,. £3 14s. 9d.; South 1 Australia,■ J63 15s. iOd.,-West Australia, 17s. Bd.; and, Tasmania, £3 13s. 4d. ;He could not see why this should be,the position, seeing that New Zealand had such a splendid country: with such an industrial people. The expenditure in- connection' with, the cost ~of conducting! the affairs of rlie country had increased'- from - ,£o,CSS,W> in 1908 to .£5,575,433 ill. 1909, on increase of .£490,039. As a matter of fact, .the increase had been' at, the of half a'million per year for quite a number: of years.. With . careful administration," the cost would' : riot have been anything' like ,the amount which' he had mentioned. They had been told j that- the extra- taxation would be placed oh , the shoulders that were best able to bear it. ;In that connection, he would'like 'to point out that eventually the extra amount .would, fall on' the consumers. That-would 'be 'the case in regard to Customs, Tho banks also- would; simply pass on the additional tax to: their. customers; the business men and the ■professional men would pass on the additional tax' on them. on to those with whom uiey had doalings. • With' respect to the claim'that tho oosition , of: .the ■ Dominion was never brighter, he had to. say it—although ho, .was sorry" to do \ so—that those who were responsible for the .statement were either- trying '.to mislead' the; country. or were showing the grossest incapacity.

The Land Question. •' . < .Referring to'the Government's -departure J from its. principles on the land question, Mr. j Mussey,asked what would be .thought of: Mr: , Lloyd-George or. Mr. Winston Churchill if ' they, backed down on their tariff . reform \ proposals. -. ;Ho. .would have far more • respect, for 1 the Government- if they had i stuck. to their ! ideas ,and, principles—if they, had' any ideas ; and .principles.to, stand by, .which;he doubted. '■ Those;, who ■ had. stood; by the freehold in: the ' days when it was leas popular in the House 1 and. country.-,than;-it/ congratu- 1 lato themselves, on,,th^ipresent position. -VBut : there , was much to do.' 'Though the Govern-.' 1 ment .hid given, way,, it;.w.ould.:be, a longftime before' his party were! l.aHle ''to : .gain all .they: wanted. They hnd not .' 'deviated . from ; the straight courso ui, tho,,piif.t, and.t.they would notfdo .sb in'-.thfS /TKeir""coal was to put men as'. t.hey";po'ssibly could-, on the lands of'the colony'wider the best con- . ditions. and "under the.!be|t tenure that',;;'the .law, conld provide 'for' theiii. ; When .they/ got the' Land Bill .before. PaHiament, he hoped to improve ;oh ..-the'" present," proposals to a . very great extent.' He quite admitted that/ the pro-pcsal-in' regard t4,the,lease ,in perpetuity; was a iinost important one. The;propasal was ;that in the first' place the settler should he ■'able . to, buy- at ! ,the original value plus ;half;;the increase 'ibetween the original J and present value, or; in the second place-he might pay 1 per .cent.',.-with an-;increase every 33 years;for 165 years.., But. it .was utter nonsense that any, land , law .would last 165 years. When: the land law of two years ago was placed on tho Statute Book they expected it would last the ; pre-, sent, and now they 'were practically repealing it. Tho Primo Minister had Vadmitted that the: valuo of the reversion to- the State after - 999 years was not. very appreciable. -and that if the 1 freehold' were given it could lie limited..-Why,; then,'should not the Government , do - the right thing and give the settlers the freehold at the original value on an occupatidn-with-right-of-purchase basis? That "would be - a good thing - for the, settler,. and .a.-very 'good bargain for the country. In connection with the • renewable lease ol Crowh lands, the .paragraph in the Statement was not 'wor.th the paper' it. was' printed on. The Endowment. Act provided that when , a man; took : up land .under renewable lease/ 'the fact of his taking it up mado it endowment' lands. That was actually'; the position," and " ; when they on tho;Statute Book they set; apart .seven•million, acres' as endowment .land, and the understanding was that as . renewable lease .lands were taken np they; became; endowment lands. They were- to. be added | to until .the'area, of endowments totalled nine million -acres.-.'But' it" never would reach .an area of nine million acres, so that unless these endov/ment lands'• were included in the Prime Minister's;,renewable-lease proposals,; they were of no valne, whatever, 'lien ■ thore w-as the other, proposal with, regard to land for settlement lauds occupied under ; renewable ■'■ lease He' admitted that the proposal of the provision which was apparently intended could not be applied. 1 here was no use talking of a term of-165 years. In many cases much of the settiers lniprovcments went to ■ the unimproved y nl V e ; A 4 was , the case > it could; not be denied that the, settler, if lie took advantage of this proposal, would be called upon to pay twice The idea was that the- value of a man s land would go : up in proportion to popu--1 jation, in'ithe , district' ■ or-, county. But what ; had put up the value of settlers', lands was not increase or population, but' the 'fact that, thev ; had;been able to find a good market for everv- . thing " If the British market i were lost, there was H land in the dairying dis--1 tricts worth «£3O an' ; acre that would he . If anyone was entitled to share in j the increased value of this land it was the peo- [ :ple in Britain, and he.did .not think that the ; Minister woald propose that for, a moment.'

The Endowment System. -The Minister for-Lands knew that' tho system of endowments, along with the system of renewable lease, under which they were supposed,to, be settled, had been a ghastly failure It was so bad. that the Minister for Lands'or the Lands Department was actually afraid to i supply the usual information to Parliament regarding the operations of the Land'for Settlement Department. Proof of the unpopularity, of this renewable lease Vwas shown by, a return laid;before, the House.of the number'of appli-: cants for the Te Akau ' lands, and the tenure's 1 ! for whichthoy applied.. Though he had not seen the return, he ventnred to say that there'were ten applications under the occupation with right of purchase for «ery .one under renewable loase. The endowments were set aside not because they -weie wanted for purposes of education or old age pensions, but to pleaso the leaseholders - and land nationalises in Parliament and their snpporteis outside. It was just as woll they should recognise that, and set to work to rectify it. Ho did not object, to endowments if they were. ; proper endowments, but: when the, land was fit for settlement or agricultural purposes, and settlement was retarded by the tenure offered to settlers, they should provide a better tenure. Ho was willing that-the whole of the revenue, either the capital value or the annual rental-from those endowments, should bo set apart for education' or old ago pensions. Thon let the land .he opened lip under the occupation with right-of jtiurchase system, and let the capital be used for the purchase of land in the cities and Suburban districts. In' those districts the value would go on increasing . with . the increased poonlahon, and in half a century or a. little more they would have ; endowments: worth the name. ■■■■.;:■

A Gloomy Picture. Interviewed at Christclrarcli, Sir Joseph had tried to evade, tho. .point at -issue, by asking him - as to how he would raiso the extra

revenue desired. The fact was thai; the necessity for additional. revenue should not have arisen* . With regard to the money for the dreadnought and defence, the Prime Minister was asking for more money than was required. Much of the Government's legislation, and.the greater part of their administration had not been in; the interests of the people. 1 To-day thercMvere very large areas lying idk>; revenue .was hardly balancing the expenditure; arrivals balancing, departures, despite the fact that an immigration scheme was in force, rhe Government was drifting on tho sea of politics to such an extent that it did not know to which political port it was steering. In regard to the taxation proposals, he would only further that he had perhaps less objection to the death duties proposals than * &ny of' the other proposals., Mr. Massey referred to tho proposal to tax property left by husbands to their . widows, and to the increaso m the annual appropriations.

Increase in Appropriations. < ' ( : Last year there was expended under that heading, «£0,561,356, and this year there was an estimate of ,£5,513,081.; -But that was. not all, for there were the Supplementary Estimates, /to .X25D,000, to be added J'!? 3 year's amount, also - the expenditure under , the heading "unauthorised,"; and the amount be added in. connection with defence. Despite the retrenchment scheme, of which so much had been heard,' expenditure this year would very greatly exceed the expenditure last year., The country would do well-to note that' considerably more ; was propose to.be raised this year as against . ,? ear V , .£1,320,000 authorised during, the short session; authorised this or the. ' Dreadnought; •81,500,000. for advances;to'settlers; £500,000• for advanoes to.workers; ,£500,000 ; for loans to local bodies: .£50,000 for, mining advances - ; £505,000 for lands for settlement; and .£500,000- for. Native lands for • settlement, making a total of >£7,870,000 in one year. ■ ...The Hon.-B. MTCenzie: To which items" do yon.object? <:,Mr. Massey said it was for the Government to say how much- the country could.stand in the_matter of indebtedness," ask! the country to authorise the moneys, and then spend it to the best advantage. .

Congratulations on Land Question. He would like to congratulate members of the Government on having become converts to the doctrine of the freehold. (Applause.) What a change from three years ago, when the, Government nailed the leasehold colours :to tho mast. -Part of their proposals three years ago was that no further Crown land should be selected except under renewable lease. He remembered Mr. Millar saying that so long'as he had; half a dozen men to stand, by him hot a single.acre would be parted with on the freehold tenure. Then again, Mr. Fowlds had voiced a similar view. The Opposition were glad ; to see the Government oh the penitent stool, There wasijoy.in the freehold camp over every leasehold sinner that had repented. ■ (Laughter.) After the coirv-ersion'of Messrs. Millar, Fowlds, Buddoi and Ngata, he believed there was hope for Messrs. Laurenson, Taylor, > and Ell, and that they were not past praying. for. It was true that the proposed Bill had not yet become law,, but the fact remained that the principle of freehold had been agreed to. l .

Question; of Aggregation. " ■ > •Though he had heard of cases of re-aggrega-tion of land, 'ho' had .never: but h« had seen numbers of cases where . settlers were induced to go on second-class Crown land and after clearing the bush and getting the land under grass they, found 'it would not carry a cow to ten acres. What was a'man to do who took up 100 acres in such circumstances? He went out Y/hen he got the opportunity.- If the public knew the number of failures that had taken place in regard to land; settlement, and the amount of publio money that had-Jieen wasted ,in useless experiments, they would be astonished. Mr. Massey referred to the scheme for placing retrenched Civil : Servants on the land, and said that the criminal ignorance of the men who were responsible for inducing them tp go there after, perhaps, twenty-five; years at; the.desk should not go unpunishod. (Hear, hear.) ,If they were going to have successful settlement, the conditions must be' favouraiilo from the point of view both;- of the land and of , the settler. Mr. Massey-iirged the necessity of encouraging, the country , settlers, and.' not fiarassing ana discouraging them by legislation. It was their duty to find unoccupied land, for all who required it, impossible. The land question would', never be settled, because the circumstances and conditions changed, and tliß law must change with them, jbut, they must give confidence "to the men on the land, and provide that thero should be neither reaggregation on the : one hand nor too, much , subdivision. on the other hand, and there would be no' difficulty in doing both. ' ' - ■■■• •-

Land Taxation. iThe land taxation pressed heavily, not so much on •. the mail who kept his land in an unimproved ' condition as on the improving settler: - Encouragement of improvements was the first, thing that ;should'be considered. f ,ln rogard 'to the proposed repeal of the Crown Lands Rebate. Act, there. was a crude proposal that' i-i man .with a '.family l of four children, under sixteen years* of age,' shqjild he allowed hili "rebate. • But 'the .way to help such persons"' jjras to ■ allow them a reduction; of 1 per cent.)on the ordinary'interest; What the Government proposed would oncourago • the man who was able to pay his rent to. refrain from paying it at the proper dote. ,

The Gambling Act. .-.There was one proposal in the. Statement witlr which- he thoroughly agreed, and that was for an amendment of the Gambling Act. When the. Act was amended two years ago, the House made a very serious mistake, for,' as a result of; that legislation, there was . now more gambling l and incitement to gamble than formerly. The Prime Minister proposed a tax of 2 per cent, in connection" -with the •proceeds of 1 racecourses, but he hoped -they were not going, after compelling the racing clubs to license the betting men,, to .'share in the proceeds of gambling on racecourses. They .should repeal the.'very objectionable provisions of ; the Gambling Act of two years ago. ->

MR. FOWLDS IN REPLY. , i.The Hon. G. FOWLDS said that Mr. Massey's speecli was of the scolding kind, to which the House had become accustomed., He would lite to .remind'him that• he had Sfoted for every item which. had increased the public indebtedness., last year four and . a half millions. Included in the increase ..was the cost of the: Alauawatu line, {and other., exceptional items. Throughout its operations tl>e Government had done as Mr. Massey had suggested sliould be done—see how much could oe aSorded under: the (lilferent' headings, and then place the matter before Parliament. Mr. ftlassey was entitled to his' share or public expenditure tor . his district, but it "would not eat the cake, and then condemn the Liov- ■ ernment in connection 'ivith • it. Any expenditure tnat was undertaken by the Government was made at ; the point of the bayonet beoing that that was tho case, it was very wrong to blame the Government. ' When '<Mr. i .Massey condemned, the legislation oi the Government, he should .remember 'that, the Opposition claimed credit for it. . He should not claim' credit for. legislation that was popular in the country, and at . the same time leave the Government to shoulder legislation which , was perhaps not so popular. .... ,

Conduct of the Session, . The Government could not be blamed in connechon with the conduct l of \busineßs : of the session. His experience was that the Financial Statement did not as a rule come down until after half the session had elapsed.. With regard to the postponement of Parliament, he would like to point out that even those. newspapers' which-condemned the adoption of - the course that was, followed; now stated that the' value of the work done by the Prime-Minister at Home justified what was. done. • Mr. Hassey: Is he the only man ; fit to lead . Parliament? ... ■ Mr. Fowlds: I will not discuss that point just DOW. . . ' .V: . - . Eesuming, Mr. IWlds affirmed that no other Government had opened up as much Crown and Native lands as; the present . Government. The additional money required was for the payment of the Dreadnought and for national military training. He held that the proposed increase ih; taxation was not nearly 'so great as the"remissions that were made two years ago. In giving the growth of appropriations; Mr. Massoy had forgotten to' take into consideration the normal growth of the various Departments. Upon, stating the respective' cost per head of taxation in-New Zealand as against that of the ■ States of tho Commonwealth, Mr. Massey omitted to mention that tho people ofjtho Dominion obtained the advantage of more public'services than those of the other countries -in' question, also the fact that every year varying amounts, up to as much as ,£800,0(10 in one year, had been -transferred from tho consolidated revenue to the Public Works Eund. The. increase was, in fact,'an'evidence,of prosperity. ~ •

Death Duties. . Mr. X'oivlds defended tho Government's proposals regarding' death-duties. It was his opinion that they did not go far enough. Succession duty would only bo payable on large estates passing from husbands to widows. With regard to the attitude of . the Government on the land - question .it could .be clearly explained, 'During tho timo Mr. Massey- had 'beon in Parliiunflßfc there had

been more freeholders on the Government side than on -the other side. It was also a fact thai there never was a time when the Opposition did-not include leaseholders. Mr. Massey: We saved the freehold from you a year or two ago. Mr. Fowlds: From my point of view. the Land Bill 0f'1307 was very much better than the Bill of 1908. • Mr. Bowlds defended the change of policy, on the part of the Government in regard to . the land question. He said it, would. be a curious thing if tho wholo of the brains of a nation could not suggest amendments to a measure In the nature of improvements..A, Government wonld not be worthy of theiiy position if they were not prepared to modify their proposals when by . criticism some better, way' had been shown, ■ He would -leniind Massey fhat ithad always been the policy of the Government to settle as many, people on. the land "as possible to the best advantage. With regard to the. statement by Mr. Massey that: the,.'markets were :, responsible for . the increased , valno . of property, he wished to remind hhn of the part .which the Government had taken in opening up those markets. Then again he would like to ask Mr. Massoy if the railways ; 'and roads which had been made had "not, added to the value of property. Mr. Massey-had ridiculed the idea that retrenched Civil Servants wonld never.'make successful settlers. Experience hid shown that many of the best settlers in New Zealand were formerly engaged in offioes and shops. When ©lection time came the people evidenced the fact that thay believed the Government administered the Dominion efficiently : and economically. .

MR. JAMES ALLEN'S SPEECH. Mr. JAMES ALLEN (Brace) said that in principle the Opposition were not'opposed to endowment lands, but they- did not think that the right sort of endowment lands had been set aside.; There could be no comparison between the changes made by Sir. Lloyd-George and his party with regard to the Budget and the changes made by the Government. The party at Home had not made a single change in regard to .principle, but it was principles that.had been surrendered by this' Government. If the Government asked Parliament to supply money beforo they told Parliament what was actually required, they must expect a scramble, and membere must look after, their share. It was the principle that was wrong. Ha was afraid that'every member did not realise his responsibility for the increase of the public debt, and they had not been assisted to realise it. Members on the Government side had .comc to take a.Minister's word;as gospel, and to accept his assurance thai funds were sound, that the. increase. of the debt' was necessary, and that economj was being practised.'■ The value of the work of individnal members had Been detracted from, and members had become Tidifferent to what was going on. : He quoted from a speech of a Government member as to the position taken up .by members on'that side. Members had not only lost their sense of responsibility, but they had lost. a great measure of control. The/power of the House to control expenditure, and even legislation, should be regained, if possible. -A good many.. ; Bills were passed amply because a Minister, brought them down. 'The Drcadi nought loan and £he Midland Railway tunnel contract were matters over which the House had not been able to- exercise any proper control. Often he had heard a Minister say that it was no use criticising a vote because .the money had been spent. It was absurd to say that the Governmejai: had done more than any other. Government to open up Native lands. A Pertinent Question.

The present, Financial Statement was really just another Governor's Speech. Throughout the prevailing note was: Need for .additional taxation. What had to be considered' was whether the increased taxation was necessary owing to legitimate expenditure or to extravagance. As a matter of fact, the Prime Minister, in a statement relating to the retrenchment scheme, had admitted the extravaganoe. The excuse by the Government when their attention was. drawn to the' increase in expenditure was merely that the revenue' had also increased—whioh was no answer at all. He would like to know whother members had the matter out. Were they going to continue to blindly follow the Treasurer? It was his opinion' that the new proposals would bring in a much greater amount than' was stated. to. be necessary. Another evidence of extravagance was the increase in Departments which had been opposed by the .Opposition all along the line. He would like to ask the Ministers in charge of the Health Department and the Tourist Department how it w«s that they got "out of hand? Then again was £t not an admitted faot that great waste was going on in connection irith roads and bridges. Another, question which he would lite to ask was why' was it that the cost of building.railways had increased so much. He admitted that bettor work, was being put into the works, but such was'not necessary in regard to . railways into sparsely-settled districts. It was a. great mistake -to have so much money invested . in unopened lines. Why had there been such a large increaso , in' maintaining the lines and' locomotive expenses? Sir Josoph Ward: What about the Otago Centralline? ■■■." '. Mr. Allen: I would invite you to examine the question of coal supply. The railways should not be charged more than the depots for coal. . .■> . ..7

Other Instances of Extravagance. Resuming, Mr. Allen declared tbafci those■who were paying .the taxes had to inako up the loss on the railways. Other. instances of extravagance wero the Lan'd Commission and the Timber Commission, which were •• just, shelters for the Government. Then, again, .£20,000 had been spent, or was proposed to be spent, in connection with the Parliamentary Buildings. Sir Josephs Give the details. . Mr. Allen (continuing) said there was temporary residence for the Governor, .£2879; Parliamentary Building (alterations), JG7GSS; and then on the present Estimates temporary residence" Governor, X 2000; Parliamentary Buildings, J53500; old Parliamentary Buildings (partial restoration), .£3500, or a total of close on .£20,000. x Ho had not taken into account the payment to a contractor in connection with a work, at' the old Parliamentary Buildings,' nor the cost of the new. residence for the Governor. By stating that there had beon a return of i! 10 for every borrowed, the' Treasurer was practically inviting more borrowing and more extravagance.. Ho challenged the Treasurer '' to prove that ho was not. a false guide to the Dominion. By allowing so many special Acts to go on the Statute, Book .members were losing control .of the expenditure. Instead of the promised saving .tjf, .£250,000, he could only find a net decrease of only . .£48,000. Members should have had the saving shown to them long ago. If the Departments had . been run on proper lines there would have been no need for Tne dismissal of 940 men in the .Public Service.. According-to the Prim© .Minister, where there was- a decrease; of work the number of; hands had been reduced. The staff of the Lands and Income Tax Department had been ■reduced by 40, but there had been no. decrease in. the work which it had. to perform. Then again, there was the Agricultural Department, in which there had been - oyer 70 dismissals. If the present .Minister could" administer the Department .with 70 less ■ men then it iust amounted to this: that the former Minister had that many officers too many.: The Hon; T. Mackenzie: And.. you want: more officials to be appointed.. . ' .

Position of Superannuation Funds,

Mr. Allen referred to the position of the various superannuation funds. Time. and, a#un the Prime' Minister had said that these •• funds were sound—sound in the sense that : the contributions were sufficient to keep them going. In launching them on the Dominion,: the Prime Minister did not let tho countryknow what w«ro the responsibilities in connection with them. To-day, he was asking . that <£25,000 should'be voted yearly to bolster! up the Raihvays Superannuation scheme. It was well known ■ that the Police SuperannuaHon Scheme was on its last lees. The question also arose as to whether tne Government had made /sufficient provision in connection with later schemes affecting the Civil Service and the teachers. It was not right, to leave to posterity an , unknown burden.

REMARKS BY HON. i. A. MILLAR. Tbe Hon. J. A. MILLAR said that retrench-, meat had been carried on with the advice of the heads of the Departments. In regard to the Health Department he declared that it was started at the time of a bubonic plague scare to - clean up- properties .in various boroughs and counties in the Dominion. Retrenchment in that and other Departments was due to the fact that , they had accomplished much of the'work-for which they had been started.'

Mr. Massey: What , about the Land and Income Tax 'Department? • 1 Mr. Millar: That Department is now organised in such a way that the work can be carried out_ more successfully. Resuming, Mr. Millar defended the. action of the Government in making the offer' of a Dreadnought without first ■of all consulting Parliament. He isaid that if it .were'right for the British Government to purchase Suez Canal shares in that way, the New Zealand government was quite justified in ite 1 action, which was'on behalf of the Empire. ' With Tegard- to Mr; Allen's claim that Native land settlement would be retarded owing to the reduction in the number of judges,' he would say. that New Zealand would 6ee a much more ivigorous Native land policy without tho judges than with them. A good deal had been said about the control of the railways, but he would like to submit tables regarding fares' and freights in connection with the systems in New Zealand and other States "of the Commonwealth. If the New South Wales system, were copied in New Zealand, the people would be very sorry. Be intended, if possible, to'go over to New South Wales after the' session and" thoroughly' invcsI tigate the system there..

Mr.-Buchanan: I will go with you. (Luughtor.) : ■1 r ." : ... . .'Mr.'-Millar referred to'the position of some .superannuation funds.' .He 'declared thit tKfe. contribution! of :i525,0Q0 .to the ..Railways Suwramuation Fund was not - an annual contribution.', | Mr. Allen read a:portion,of. the Budget to the effect that the, contribution v;as to be a yearly-one. ' Mr.. Millar: That is so. '

IN DEFENCE OF THE LEASEHOLD, Mr. T. E. T.OXOR {Christchurch North) expressed the opinion that some of the proposed taxes were ;in the right direction, and that

somo of the-proposed measures wouldpvwe I Oi achtan±agt> 'W .n« 'ilninMnnii V.H-, in j tie tfiiagt*, howuver, 'a clause' Wicu. v>» liii j' illus*. i'OLiX'fjXd/li: ' uuilt- ttf' Ults Xiibt'Cll pawy-isiiice.its-adwent-io. power.- Ho-reierreit to w»o jttu-pwuu' «iiueutti , ' l 'uy. ,U« \xw«Uuueiu oi tue iuU;reaa> m. thrown xtubanoius. lttr. jtillid' iiadiuui iuait<stmit'to say vu -uo qu«uon of, cun«i«;nc&, aiiu jd jn>i«Kl uit m would ue tcmiiisteiii,. on tne. .atul viMts'uuiu, xlo wouiu watch closely to see wwither lUr. Miliar iiad in uiu jtcar' idjj tuu aunt> oddrage max he bad some j«ars ago, when Ob. suuea; uuu CO long u» lie m*- -»uj u-uo,seii 'wvuiuels u. 111* back no wuulu iijc iuiuY.' a iuxuuu' iuu« . to be dlhpjsed ctt on .tie iveehain teuure. 'ruai evening j»it. ulialar haa ueeu "ii',v.rwt euougu ro say notuing aooui lae land quusueu. jur. 1 .JUiiai', lie Woiua Eumiud members, was tho ono man in the ministry who siooa.comimtted to Utiimu uie peopie'a interests 111 cuojiasoiioiu. lanu. ' J.llO proiwsa.s ui regard - to.-tie'9S9 years' lease unu the rtnewaoie leaso wro ah a t i- ' pearauce of giving the lessee' someming wincu' it was not intended, to give him at all. Xiiey. Bhouia either, give ; iho . froonold, ouu-jglu or maintain tue light of. tile Slate m au Uieiie leases and 111 ,tue unimproved values mat I would gradually accrue. Ho did- not believe in tricky provisions such as these undoubtedly were. He did' not believe that the lessees would be able to get the freehold title ,uudw, any of them. The claJisee in question were, lie considered, utteriy disgrace! ul. lie wm not Blind to tue fact , that on the liberal side of the House there were a number of freeholders, but it was clear that for the last eight or nine years the .Radical sentiment of the country had been gradually betrayed. They, had never had .a programme of reform put before them at a general election, aiid they had never known what tile land policy of the Government was. He suggested that the Government should nationalise the Parapara ironsand industry. '•■ The encouragement- of the beet sugar industry by the Gowsnnment would'not prevent the beet sugar company, cntcrii (; ■ into an agreement ■ with, the Colonial Sugar "Company, and it would be better ; for' ths "State to go in for sugar refining itself. The land proposals should be'referred to'a referendum. No provision was made in the Budget to improve'the position of industrial workers. There was additional taxation for .tham, but no relief from taxation. The new primage duty would cost the workers of this country .£250,001). before it was done with. He moved as an amendmenfcr- ' 1 "That' the proposal to surrender the 'people's right. to any increase in future renewals following, .revaluation of existing renewable and other leases is palpably a ! subterfuge to: capture votes supposed to bo hostile to the Government.- • Such pro- ■ -posals further deprive the people of their legal' vested interest in . such land, and ; this House-is of opinion that the people, are entitled -to have the opportunity, by means of a referendum vote, to say, free from the confusion inevitable-in connection with a parliamentary elcctioai contest; > whether any more Crown land should .be sold, or whether the remnant of ; the colony's lands shall be. preserved and the annual' revenue' and rentals from such lands be available to reduce the burden of annual. ' taxation." - "I move this amendment," said Mr. Taylor, "because it is my intention to divide the House on every possible: occasion- till the cup, of their iniquity is full in regard to this surrender of popular rights." He knew that there was a minority, of leaseholders in the ■ House. - 1 The words, "palpably a subterfuge," formed part of the amendment as it was first read by. Mr. Taylor, were deleted subsequently, and the words obviously designed" inserted in their place. .' ■ . . -: : MR. M'LAREN SECONDS AMENDMENT. Mr. M'LAREN (Wellington East) seconded the amendment. He believed that the people of New-Zealand were being absolutely deceived in regard to the land question by the word "option," which was used repeatedly by members on both sides. The additions to the colony's indebtedness had gone to svrcll tho values of 'privately-owned lands, and, instead of suggesting further sale of Grown lands, and putting the proceeds in- a national' develop- . mental fund .which would further increase these'values, more of the enormods increase in private unimproved values should come back to the State. He believed that the sugi gestion to rofer the land proposals to the ' people was.a fair and proper one.; He be- ! lieved that, the Government proposals in regard to internal defence, meant more than ■ universal training'. / They, ibaplicd" a 'Standing army of" 20,000 recruits, and a form' of oon- ■ scription. He strongly objected to tho, proposal that the whole of the, mobile ' force -to s be organised; should be available -as an-ex--1 peditionary force for. service over-sea. • - Ho - agreed-with the suggestion,- to refer-the land 1 proposals to a referendum.

the Government would have taken a stand ,uuto tho la6t ditch in support of the leasehold. His surprise was added to by tho fact ■ that there had .been no general outcry for ths freehold. Even if the remaining lands were " to be selected on the leasehold system, there ivonld not be enough land to satisfy the earth hunger. It was not the mail who was carving; out a home that wns to get the freehold, but - tiie man who was in possession of improved ' land. The Government had no right to sell; the lands without the taxpayers having a'voice in the rnattur. He aid not blaiiie the present Government, so much as the Liberal Administration in the past for not giving the;, country a lead on the subject. If the position wns placed ; fairly and squarely bef-ori ' tho electors, no city constrtnency and fewer of tho country electorates' would return; frcoholders. The Government had run away from its proposals of 1907, and. it would in a feur, .years run away from the present proposals, if.'' they were adopted. If the. proposals contained.'}n the on the land question woto embodied in a Bill,' he would oppose it on every , occasion. . MR. POOLE'S OPINIONS. :j Mr. POOLE West) declared that if; the estates oi the people were about to .be sacrificed the people had a right to. a say in the matter. A policy of misrepresentation had passed round the Dominion, whereby; the larg* landholders had used the small settlers os tlieir' catspaws. He was going to, fight for the re-, tention of the endowment areas at any cost. He . believed that the : Government was trying to find ways and means for financing their- propositions by obtaining-money from tho sale of" Crown ; lands. He intended to vote for the amendment so that-a referendum might bo taken on tho subject. MR. HOGG IS OUTSPOKEN. .Mr. HOGG (Masterton) asserted that tho two leaders of the House were of ono mind on the most important question :that could como before the House.- He would like to tusk:-On which side were the true Liberals to be found? A moro outrageous statement .than that in the •Financial Statement with reference to the land question had . never been brought be£or» tho country. .It constituted 'a surrender of the people's rights and the people's authority. The Government was assuming a right to give away, that which was not in. their possession. The people would rise as ono man in their determination to assert,jtheii own rights. He could only describe the Government's proposal as a blot and a blemish which would remain for all time. For years the country had heard the predecessors,of tho present Government declare that as they had to' repurehasa estates they , would never allow the freehold to bo distributed again. But what, was the, pre- ; sont Government doing?- It was an endeavour ; to convert the people s property into private i property—to hand it over to the capitausts to gamble with, to be exchanged, to be tuiaied into sources of revenue not for the workers in tho country, nor for the toilers in the city,:but: for the man who neither worked nor toiled, but depended fon rents, and interest. The ;> land proposals of the Government were sufficient to conaomn\ony Government in-a young country, like Now Zealand. If the country; were properly managed there would be plenty of money for. public works; and the Government would not have to go so frequently on its knees to the foreign, money-lender. To surrender the freehold would be to reproduce in Now Zealand the evils from which the Old Country had suffered for centuries. The proposal was dishonest, and in his opinion disgraceful., Out of the 87- millions of land that had been alienated nearly half was freehold' property.: The proposal was the cry, of men who would never face audiences and make tho demands that were now .being made. • ■ : V . THE GOVERNMENT DEFENDED. Mr. ELL (Christchurch South) said that u he had always been a supporter of the referendum he would .'vote for the amendment.. He protested strongly, howoverj against the insulting term, used in the preamble of Mr. Taylor's arnendment, referring to the leadership fcf\ th« ■ •' ,' Mr. . Taylor said that if that stand were taken,up and Mr.'Ell appeared as an apologist for the Minister,/he could havo tho amendment as it originally stood. - Not.'a word'.in. it llccted on the Minister. He: had altered 'the ame-ndment to suit the sensitive soul. of, Mr. El)., who othenvise 1 might not be able to vote ■ for it.:. ; V i ;- Mr. Ell said he wiis glad-that other members had induced Mr. Taylor to modify; the word- ' ing of his amendment.' ' The land proposals'did not meet with his approval,, but it must' be that thero were: freeholders on..both sides-of; the House. The Government'did',iiot propose to soil any portion of the endowments. -He admitted that, there had ; 'been' a change/ : oi public opinion on the question of - tenures, though l it had • not been experienced in th< • towns.- A good deal of tho criticism of -tht Government had been made, without-' under standing the. situation. The Government .die not intend to hand over the Crown land's;. t( the tender, mercies' of the Leader of tho Oppo sition. v . ..';' ;• >:-V , Tho House adjourned at 1.30-a.m. to-day.