DISCUSSION IN HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 655, 4 November 1909, Page 5

DISCUSSION IN HOUSE.

J' 1 STRONG VIEWS EXPRESSED. ' ' MB. DINNIE'S POSITION. Mr J F. Arnold (Dunedui Central), spcakjng jn the House when it was proposed that the report bo laid on the table, and before its contents were known, congratulated tho Government on setting up the commission imme dmtely the serious, position of the force uas pointed ont to them Hβ was qnito satisfied that the Government cQuld not have appointed a stronger or abler commissioner for the work than Mi , Bishop Whatever tho result of the conimissKin might! be, it would be recopmsed that his (tho speaker's) object had been to place the force on a bettor footing, and give confidence to its members and the public Hie only rcgTot was that the head of tho Department did not enter into the matter m tho same spintj that he did not try to tho utmost of his ability to assist tho commission. Jnstead of working for'tho welfare of the force and, of tho public, ho seemed to have made t the matter somewhat of a personal one While those who gave evidence.from tho force uero i"classed by him as agitators.unothini; whatever was laid about those who called a meeting m Wellington, which was,, in the speaker's opinion, ono of the greatest breaches of discipline that could have, taken place. He did not * blame the men themselves, for thev wore chiefly, if not all. constables Hβ placed tho blame on tho right shoulders, on those whoi 'umnoncea these moj to hold a meeting and pasj a' resolution that both reflected on lmnand the commission appointed by tho Ministry. Hβ know those who were responsible for the meeting, but he did not intend at present to say inoro with regard to tint He ' US t P ° mt " Ut Wllat Mr ' Dlnni ° •"'BBolf Mr. Dinnio's Attitude. ■Not only did Aft. Dinme call men of the force agitators, but he stated in his final evidence that those members who had spoken about tho administration of tho Department YKSie hostile to himself. Mr. Arnold that no action taken by him iad beeii hostile ,to■Mγ Dinme himself, and he ha<} not caied whether, Mr. Dinnie romainod at the head of the force or any other person His one de eiro had boon to seo tho force placed on a better footing When 4 it was decided that the commission should be set up, Mr. Diiroio. wrote to the Minister, and spoko, of tho charges charges They certainly ucre serious, but they SV°' Tife n \ (Mr Arnoltl > had etaW m the' House.that if he could only prove SO per ceu of what ho said his. action would be justified The fact that he had boon able to provo aa uiuch as ho did, and that other members of o£ than t H?Js*~F m ? i th «y had «"d™p vectlcss But what was to bo said of the following statement by the coiiimisaoiier, mado aftertravellmsright through the Dominion and tt ffi f° •" «» H""* -"I dirtnSJ eftrm that e«ry allegation mado by Mr. AraoM,aiid another is either grotesquely'™! ger,afcd or absolutely baseless Whether that statement was. borne out by the report he IT xHil ? enll>Ors t0 b * *e con most absurd -thing for a- man m Mr Diniue's K *T> a ?J? t Wlth responsibilities to ea } Z,h,Jhi i waS T> n<rt cc l U!j to tho sUtoment which he made m Duucdm, that ho had laid a i? V fil? THl 0 m eD-thoso - who were trying {? ™- out the true position of the force thai; they might serve tW, people of the Do nunion and tho men m the force-to fall mto Arn»M "i etat <™ent." pursued Mr Arnold, ridiculous and absurd Ins it ~M , or if SiJn -Em '» on si. that \ h^ ws tho weakness of tho «,^1 mself > the inability of tho man to oc cupy/he position Ho has boon placed m, what tLt "/k Hwetafcment he mado that Ihe files v had been faked? And when I S&t 0 ?*?* \!?,£ nl ' ho 6ald . 'Well, they X',, 1 like.jo knoii if it be a fact Splice Department, could be faked, what are &• " hol ° pub,)c M " ,ce ' Wllat in ™™«1 f A laoe , npon any stat « m ent mado J£W ~t he administration of any De- &%* }S 'he,Donnmo ? ? But I am'safasEtatcmont jnado b> the commissioner that if ws possible ,that tho Bles might bo faked *as absurd/and could only bo mde by such fi Ml l h OW th,nk Mr Dlnmo t0 *»'" One could hardly concoivo it possible thait Mr Dinme could at the end of the commission, Hvo reflected on Mr. Bishop himself. Mr ' Arnold read Mr. Diume's etatoment, in his ' Tv ? ndencc > directing attention "to the i d «P« tni en*al and other information with the ob]«ct of casting reflection on the Depart 2S.ij *}* 3** only way In wlu ch it woa poesißle for the commission to got the truth ' 01 the position was for tho commission to T&rSJi 01 tho files P laccd be* ol * >' Wi*l stated that ho did nof expect to prove ftisftaso by evidence. New Commissioner Suggested. the finding of tho commission Blight be c. lo result, must bo that, in tho first plate,'thore must be a now head of the Police JJopartracnt. "After the evidenco that has been givwi, after the manner in which the coinmiscion was conducted from that sulo it is impossible to expect that tho members of the force will havo confidence iji the ad ministration as lodr as the present head oi the force remains them" IJc would go further, that Sub-Inspector Wright, who had been tho administrator, certainly of tho Wellington district, if not of the wholo Do minion, must be transferred from Wolhngton, and that the it hole of tlie head office must bo reorganised. i '! MR. T. E. TAYLOR'S STRICTURES. Mr.'T 13 Taylor (Chnstchurch North) read extrai ts from the report, commenting upon them ai ho did so. Ho explained that one con Id aot bn quite, sure when opportunities , for dis cussing the report would be afforded beforo the ewion closed. ißefornng to Mr <Dinni&'s re commendation:that a,cettain confitable'should bo " tfansferred to ft more suitable district, vhore Ins previous lustorj is not knowpi to tho public. , ' Mr Tayldr said "This is about aa i . rofl-hnf .as jinvthmK that has ever aDoeared

.pn:"a' -'ijußlio , record,' and. I/should like ta-know, iniviow>:of vthat expression of opinion, what \ kind Of men docs Al r. Dinnio think) should be put, in- such '[a responsible position as , that of ■police^officers,'where the lives and, property '.and character of. men, and women are in'their charge, stf to. speak."' lie stated that' ho, had hot.Kivou evidence"before the.commission becttuse.he was'in. bnd'health at. tho"'ti'me aiid :.in : .the,hands of his modicar.adviser, and so lie ' refused to be. drawn , into it:-'-'.-IBeferring to a case montioneil in the report, Mr. Taylor said Jhfe had known constables of, long -and unMomishcd, service , who could not get their ' leave mado cumulative to allow them to visit, ■thoir.relatives in Auckland, but "this scoundrel; for ho was;-nothing else," was granted 3(i days . leave to visit Auckland- and Rotorua. Ihn plea.ofa constable that he'had been, "a staunch supporter of the present, Government all': his:' days," ■ ( .Mr.- .Taylor , characterised . as distinctly funny.' After qUoting other incidents from;. the ''report;. Mr; Taylor . saiil that Coin- ■ rhissioiirt" i-Dirinie. would: .yet ha'ye 'it believed ''that''.during■■Kis : :.term'-,'of; 6ffice\tho! force"-had bciin well' administeredv'and .inhis- last annual ■report said'that.discipline"was well maintained and ,tlie:-force inifirst-class order. .If Commissioner Dinriie' was so'- absolutely blind to tho of'the' , important department under 'his charge, "tho sooner he quits a young country::. liko . New.': Zealand, : the, better . for .'the Polico Department:and. everybody, else.";. '■.■■.... : : ; -I''[(■ ;■;'■ ;■■;, Apportioning tiie ; Blame.- , V ;':"-Mr;; Taylor:'said- he ;had never' felt -,suro, since the:D.I.C. scandal in Dunedin, that the constables:.who ; were then" "dismissed, without auy inquiry, into their real connection'with the thpfts were:not ; -the.victims.of- the ■ commis-'biasj-jaiid- most: unjustly: treated; ■ .'He, had'folt'conviricedof'it.', He.had hadMoubts about-.iMr.V-Diniiie since:' seeing.'jhim: ..as': a witne9s:ih .with, those, thefts, v ,'He thought' then .that wo had. got hold'; of a man who had proved'.himself a complete failure in thecposition'in which he.had been.placed:: No blame iforithe- obndition /of ..things shown in the report; could possibly- rest on the present 'Minister,for Justice, who had not had charge dt for more than a few months! He: niight go. , further and, say -that.'one could. scarcely expect members of the. present Cabinet who"were members of the Ministry during the last-six- or seven years of Mr. Dinriie's;regime, to be,personally responsible for. the position bf.a Department'.which they were not in charge of.-';•';-Tfie recommendations of tho commission, howeyerj sh6uld-.be giyen effect: to,' as speedily as possible, and the past/wiped out.- Mr. Taylor held that the ctmmissioner had!.been "a perfect: puppet". \ in: ■ the :hands , of Sub Inspector 'Wright, ever, since the latter cam.e into' .the Wellington office. '■, He' failedc to see how , ; after .the matter had been considered -by the Parliament- and country, and by'the Executive, the Executive could fail to at once give effect; to! the.' very . '.clearly expressed' recommendation; Of. the report,-'.'and free the country from 'one : .of: the' most' grossly', incompetent public.;officials who has.over, bV accident c-r design,ifound a lodging in the/Civil Service of ::,,..:■. .'.:.';.'.";••'-. '■;-.;■ :.. ; v.- : MR; HERDMAN'ON' THEGpVERNMENf'S '; : ;.- , '■.■.■ 'C^; RESPONSIBItITY,;.•,: ■ .:- ■\-,J' . Mr. Herdman (Wellington North) said it was shown-thatz-Ministers ot the. Crqivn, had:again failed■ to manageiproperly ■■ an important Department: .These, troubles: weTO' of a.-recurrent' hatare.'.;-There- was ..mismanagement ■.. and• ■ a Police.Commissidn.,seven.'or .eight: years ago. Under; the .management :of .Commissioner Tun-bridge;i-'the police force -reached a high: stata of .efficiency,: but .poHtical;interferencemade:Mr. Tunbridge s ; position .intolerable, v.'and rather thahsubrait/tpthe-'dictates of .Ministers of; the Crown :he resigned: his office. ,' . ■ •■■■■':','■■'.■:''.:■.-{ ; ■ The - Prime .Minister:: What Ministers; of : . the. Crowji?■'•:;•.'■■'';''•:•,-■/■• -:;'' ;: -. .';','■■ J \ : ;;'■■■'. '■■ ' : -'-'.:\- ■''■ • ■.•.Mγ. -Herdman:' Ministers of..the 'Government 'you fbelont[ed , ..to',.'at.the. time.. It-was beyohi: question, * Mr.'-Herdman j went '•.'' on, * that the ■reason i-why;.Mriv'*'unbridge resigned. Miriistera', of '.the,-- Crown-,interfered with ,him, ■determined,:that rather,than submit.to the orders; and- dictates, of Ministers he' .would resign from.his.position. -Heileft.tho' , country, ahd.sp the.country-lost a'most .valuable police Herdman -said he was": not , willing that ;t^b ; -.Ministry :.. of. -vthe -.-• day.,' should -A be acqiiittedipri'what .had ; , ; happened.. •''He' quito admitted..that'ithe'presDnt Minister;for..justice had 'not;• been/.long; enough, in" - to: haiyo., grasp of the -working. of his Department -but: thati did.;not exonerate the ■other ,Miii?ters', of •''the; Crown. ■ ,The- Government .of the.day^were-ijcsponsible.to.;the pebplt for; '. ,'administfation of the/ Departments, pther-Departments '.could,: be. pointed,, to 'in '■■jf;as- 1 'here: :was "a Depar.nnent ,whiph,essentialiy;sh6uld ! bo. .well-managed, ;-andpn.-regard to/; which gross.' .incoinpetency was indicated. Heiwas. not quite. that Mr.';Dinnie .should -bo."saddled with , the.'wTiblejof.'.theblame. There iwerepas,sagO3; in 'the \report, : that seemed .to; indicate .was; Tjeliipr 'β-xorted'.'in ; reßard'to appointments and-promotions;,and'ho b'plipved' the Teal' truth l , of the ■whole'"matter was that ; ;the_ present discreditable ■.condition' of the polico force twas.'nbt due' so rriiich: to tho. fact f flint 'Mr. Dinnie iwas incompetent, as 'to the/fact that Ministei's^.of ( the ;■ Crown ■were , susceptiblo to political influence, and appoint- : ntcnts'and promotions-were made as the i'esult of-infiuence. s ..Whon,'.that happened "\ in -any State the inevitable consequence: was dempralisationV '..;.. '■'.'■' : . : .'. : 'y.''.-.' ■ ■'•■■■.:;,: "'■/.:.■.'■■',*■■'■:■ ' ''■' ''i ■';•'..'■•''' ;A! Serious .'Allegation, ~:••;; : ; -,;;,' i.' "■, V'-.He was told ,that : .though a certain :man':had been.dismissed from the police force.because.of his.past criminal, career: he .was subsequeaty; appointed toa post.in theßailway Department. Ho would' like itho .Prime .Minister to ..make a statement/'on. that matter..- If'that state ; qf tjjings : were'in, a funny.-.ppsitionand • d'.!curipnß country. He' had been told .this,;riol by': one person,'.but, by-two or three, individuals, ■whbse-.inforniatibn. should: ; be,"of .the,rbost possible kind.' li .'.it-was'true,!.it.showed a. lu'di.' crbus.and ■scandalousVstate.of things.'. -^'■•'• ; .;'- : .-.The'Priine/.Minister, said..he. wasi taking -.'a .■np'teV,pf«thfl''Btoteni|tot.' - --,-He:tfioog , ht''llr. i -Herd;-' niin '.wpnldyfind, that •the facts were: the' reyerso. of-thpse.-stated. :*■;.. ■;. • '(j '■■', iV.-v.-.. ''■'■■■'■,■'■.■'' V.' , :. ' Mr: ■Her,dinan , ;sai,d.;he/'hoped';they..wore: }.'.••'■)' ■ iM'h'e Prime Minister': I-will lock'into the matter. : '■■ - : ■'■' : ' :.•,: .V :: ' ; ' v;jMr.- he hoped, there was somo.referenceiin•;the 'report to , , the: quartefs which' the :policß,'oec'upied,.their.irate-of-pay, and'the. ijiiestibn;^ of-, ;fe periodical rHe.'considered.that.theVpolice,were public;seryants, whose' duties .were.'muchl.'more-imp'ortaht. fhan ; those: pe.rfoTinedbylo'rdinßiy Eublisservarits,.''and,'.the: be^"--ihen.H'Aoiild; , '.'b'e!attra,eted. J to'!thp-/f6rce.'..H ; New Zealand had- been:able to' retain: the;Bor-; vices of■• Mr.;'■ Tunbridge 'itiwould 'have Had,• a force ..Which, would- have' been : tho. envy -. of. all ; othor.countries:; '■■ : : '■■■ _-.'.■ •■:..:■'•:■ : MR:WILFpRb:CRIT!CISES : THE COMMIS-j;-:-:l;--:-::';,;-\;;: :/H ; ; .SION./. ;■■■ ~.'/. ; : :.\:;; : : : ,;Mr.' .Wilfprd "(Hutt)' thought the: New.: Zealand: force was -.a; good one, although .'there might be some .blapk' , .sheep'in',it. : -.lt :.was; pleasing to.' note;that not one,charge ofvcofruption pr'-.brJT ■be"ry}.had ; -'bee'ri" alleged against-any ofnts,:menibers.!':. He'felt.that.a commission, should-be'set upto -inquire, into -the conduct' of .the..-..liitd .commission.i . ; liefbre any .of .the had■' b'oon>exnrnined-Mr. Bishop had remarked 'that, there was' an extreme;ampunt of dissatisfaction , .' . -Mr; Taylor: That'was; why .the:commission was -set :iip., •'■-■■•'.■' '.'7' v ': /; .->! '■'■'' : -, •:' ".-;"■•'^=; 1 '.Mr. Wilford: .Noj he was appointed to in-quite-whether.'that: was :the ; .case, ; ;;;: ~' ' ■ ./' VEesuining,''Mr.,'Wilford eaid'it'wouldappeai that. Mr. jßishop '.made : .up; his mind' before ihe ■ commenced ; ;tb';heaiV:the,>eride'nce. Then, again'; Mr. ißish'op .had' at -first said that he did not recognise; ;Mf.'Dinnie's Jstatus at -the commission .; .'■ Mr,: ■ WUfc-rd . next referred to' the fact thflt:-.'MrV:'BlshopVhadVdeymed'-to''.'Bflow..a''eon-stable '■[■' to-';: cross-examine -"'.'an. '■"• .'inspector/ but'■;•■'he,',■ allowed ■' an'- inspector,! . a ; de--'te'etiver;,- and.:' a•-.-"station sergeant ' -to -,Mr. It, ; was 'stated that Mr;; Bishop had blushed" when it' was sug-: gestedflto ~hinr...by" a, detective \ that ;he , : (Mr., BiebSop)', would.inake ..a; good. commissioner' pf ■police. •>,!-. ; -:,'-''-;>:'.-'--,--.'' : ■■"■ "■' .•■■•'■'..■■ ;■■■;.' Mr. ; . .Taylor, the ;word "blush" used in the report?;:,(fe-' ■ ■. ■■' ' ' " '. ' ' . '■:■': '■ ■■■■■■'■ , Mr. >Vilford: : The hon. gentleman knows nothing, about ibtasMng:,:- ;■ -■■.-:- ' : ... . -.-,.: .'Mr. Taylor:;And yon won't carry, one eo loag a3'ypu live. . .■'•■'■..- '. ■ ■•■>,.■■■.'■':■■■ • a'--, i.'-.: Contiituing, ■ Mr. ■. Wilford said , that a dnet'man got 10s. per day, but a constable received only ;7e.;6d..' That was not'the proper thing. (Hear, -hears.). Hβ" went;, on to .say .fhat when Mr;- Dinnie had found out that constables were t not fit to hold their positions, he got. rid of ] them at once.',' He would , like- to'know" how many: years were, covored in a .return as ■■ to drunkennesa ' which. had; been quoted by: Mr. Taylor. ■'■-'■■■ A ' "'•':'■ ■'■•.'' ■: ; '■ .-• ■■''•■■ i' : - ' ■ ''.'..■■' ■■■■•'Mr.;Tayl<ir:.''lt l is in the report. . : , ■ •".'.-'>■■ .Mr. :Wilford: I have not yet ihad time :; to gotiroughit. : ■••"•■- .--.". ■'■.. ■.-.' ;:.';.' : ■•'• 'Mr/Tavlor:.you will-know more than;you; can, swallow', about certain matters >,when the; report comos up Mr Wilford I think I will bo ab'e to sn allow it and you as well. MR. MASSEY HAKES A PROTEST. Mr. Massoy said ho did not proposo to touch on tho leport, as members had not had an opportunity to cPnsidor it It was to bo hoped that tho House would bo given an opportumtj to discuss tho wholo matter (Hear, hears) Ho would, however, like to point out that, although tho report was not yot in the hands of members, it t.aa published in tho evening paper, and was boing sold in the streets Mr. Arnold It is not fair Another member No, it is not, TtCinming, Mr Massey asked whether that was evidence of the proper control of the Department oi administration of tho Department tattle new Minister, who had been & oham,

of.it for. only a few. months. He would not raiso the question as to' whether H ' was a breach of privilege, but it seemed to him that members Y were ; being placed in an unfair "position.. ••"■•' ,•....■■ '..■ ; PRIME MINISTER IN REPLY. ■The Prime Minister/ in tho course of his .reply, said he- regretted that- any discussion : should have taken place before members had had an opportunity to digest the contents of' the report. Members knew that an opportunity would be.available to discuss it. ,, When? - ... ■■ ',;,■;. . Sif' Joseph: The Government. proposals in ..connection rath this matter will,require to bo putibeforo th« House. ■' " . .. Mr.'.Mas-cy. Will the proposals come in the 'form of:a' Bill? . .■ ■. , , ;:,Sir Joseph: I .can't, tell you. .;■... •' - ,Mr. Masseyi'l hope'you arc not referring to the Estimates.. ' . . : .Sir Joseph: No: ... ... ' ■■/Mr. Arnold: The report of the last commission was never .discussed. . ... \ -.Sir, Joseph: The results were before the ■House at different times. ■:-;..- .;; ;' Denial of.. Political influence. , • ■Resuming, Sir Joseph referred to what .he ■described as thfe extraordinary effort-made by Mr. .Herdman to- make it appear that there had interference in the Police aid t other, Dopartnicri'ts.. The fact, .was that .■Mr;.: Hefiaian was so biased and prejudiced that wheEJ it came to a matter of criticism on political affairs he was apt to make misleading nnd fafee.;stateruents. Did Mr. Herdraan be.■lieve that .the Minister should, not interfere?; ■ Mr. Herdman: Not improperly. ' '■■' : Sir Joseph (continuing) referred to several of the cases inquired- into and said it would appear that Mr. Dinnie. had at once done all that he could when full'information had come under-his notice.. He quoted from the report witlv'a: view of'showing that Mr. Bishop nad found that political .influence;was not exerted in connection with the force. It was quito con? trary to fact to say that Ministers had wrongly .interfered. ■' No .suchsuggestion cpuld.be made in regard to the present Minister in charge, anil. everybody knew that his predecessor who held office for nine years was not amenable to pressure: With:Mr. : Wilford, he agreed that a 'majority of , the police were a credit to the.countrj , . (Hear, Tiear.)' ;, ■ •; ■ Mr.,Taylor: Mr. Bishop himself says so. : . i Case of ;Mr. Tunbridge. Bosuming, Sir', Joseph said ho defied _ Mr. Herdman to bring one instance of'political influence being used by a Minister of the Crown. 'Mr. Herdtuari had been referring to Mr. Tunbridge, but no Minister had i interfered with-that officer. ■. ■'■ '■■■;■'■ .■ . ; -■ Mr. Herdman: In connecuoii with a welson 'mattcr? : . ■ ; ..■'; ■'■".■ . ■ ■ T. E. Taylor: His decisions were reSir Joseph, (continuing) said that the Minister 'undoubtedly had the right to reverse a , decisiaii by/ the commissioner' if ho could not approve , it. , This country would never hand bver'the sole control to the heads/of;the Departments. . The ' head of a . Department 'should accept-the decision of a Minister -layally. The Minister, might or might not : have' "had differences of opinion* ■with- Mr. Tunbridge. Even •:; if events proved that the opinion of the head of, a Department was sounder .than that of a Minister that. did not warrant .Mr.- .Herdman-. , . in saying , that because.' the 'Minister held .to his own opinion he was guilty of-interference There was-one decision which he (tne.'spealser) had made, which'was not-considered a good one by a single*official, in the-particular-Depart-ment'concerned, but if turned'out thathe was 'right'. 'Ho■ was referring to-the establishment of pe'uny.i postage, which.the'heads of partment erroneously, believed, would result in serious .loss, of: revenue.>\ ■•"'. ;,,■-'•• "iMr.' Taylor said that Mr. Tunbridge :resigned because' , -. thevMinister reversed his decision.,. . Sir Joseph: Supposing : the Minister; did j it •was-his prerogative to. do that. -•:..:; ' ■ •■ v'Mr.Taylor:'No doubt. ■.. " - "-'\ '■•'.. : Sir Joseplir If tp-mprrow I made a decision and the head of,theDepartment said he'would 1 would.tell 'him ■to resign,. -~ (Hear, hears.).-:: '.-.-•-."... : -.'l',.■'■.'-. : .i- ■•.•:■■.•' ■'...■ . ■;": ...-;•.-■ "The . Government's Intentions. .-■'-Mr.'.'Taylor: What does.the, Government pro•poso to do in regard to .theVropprt? , : . •■;. -'' ;.Sir''.Joseph said" the Government had, not yet:come but he would-let'mom-bers,know, the result; as soon as. it was available. No oho would say. that Mr..'Arnold had done other than his duty in calling'for a commission, of inquiry, ~b.ut; , th,o.-.G,overnpient' had also, done' i.ts the-matter. . : T^'ith'.'i , Bgard ; :to; Mr. ..Massey's co'mplaint,': he would'say. that "the report was ldid on the table of the: Council at; 2.30,', and there ; was n'n reason-to doubt but that the evening paper- had got; a copy in a legitimate-way, \ : It was not- unusual, '■ when.a matter was of great public importance; to.allow a" newspaper to get ..an outline in advance, on tho distinct'understanding' that it would hot be published until the report was laid on tho table.'•.■'•'■-.-.;•:.'' ■;'.■/ ; ".::v-'--.V:v '-: . .•■•:' : ': : :'■ VMr. A report should .be submitted to :Parlianient'before publication .takes place. Sir Joseph: As 1 have said that was the.case. ■-Mr.' Massey:'lt w.as; not.' ' ' N i .'■'•V-; ■■''~; :■ ■ Mr..;-Allen,:. You ■ gave' jt to. the . clerk.'.'-. , .„ ■.Mr.' Massoy: .It, is'not' laid "on .the L table until, tho that should bo' douo.' .... :'■-.-,-. : - ; ■;•". '■■''■'. ■ ; •'■■' ,■•■•;.■' .-■..■•■■■ .: Sir. Joseph: I admit that that is so. '. ....''