THE ADDRESS-IN-REPLY.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 636, 13 October 1909, Page 4

THE ADDRESS-IN-REPLY.

; .-OPENING OF THE ;DEBATE. ,:■• ,Mr v SMlTH:'(Enngitikeb moved the Address-in-Eeply to the-Governor's Speech, Referring .to His Excellency's'visit to the South Pacific: -Islands, he said it was - for. tho business men of Now. Zealand 1 to see' that' the ttt.de .iron those: islands, ...which' should'; naturally. (low to New! Zealand, was not taken- away •, by other countries.-; In regard' to. the Chambers of Commerca Conference ftt»Sydney, Mr. Smith, said that thO resolution which was passed: in favour of conserving trade within the Empiro showed, clearly the.-■' trend of, publio opinion', arid, he/hoped would be remembered by. the Hbuso.Avhen the ferort of :tho Timber. Commission came.up, for discussion.: Thb-finding of that commission would undoubtedly be considered • unfavourable'by all those who' took'an activo. interest /in 'the welfare, and comuwrco ot. Ihe .Dominion.,-, , . - ; ~. Meiers and-the-Timber-, Commission, ' He'had'just.received-vtelegram from Ohaknne,: ; ; which;'.stated that a' meeting of saw- • millers. ' had' been '.hold'' there that "day, ~ierfosonfing the ' Enngitikei and Waikato (lis-' hleta, and that a resolution had been ■ passed protesting .'tho proposal of v the , commission'..to.'altor tio tariff on..'foreign timber, as'-aomeasuro.whioh Iwoold- plaoe the millers in -a .very■>much position ; than they -were In .today.--.The ■ meeting : had decided . that a deputation should, be-sent' to Wellington to protest against ;the, proposed, alteration of the -tarW.^He'was glad-to learn' that the-.com-missiorV had- thpngh6 fit that a rednotibn, in tho "freights of-New ..Zealand'"timbers, should bs'made.by' the Eailwny Department; because hitherto the timber industry had, had to kar nearjy double the freight:that had been paid by a lot-of farm; produce... Mr. Smith, Spoke ■at considorable-length-on ]tho timber innnscry, which,:ho said,.Bhould".iKterest' the 0 ties as 'much as,tho.country. -As.regards tho Confereriee,'he thought that the Prime Jlinistor had proved \a worthy representative at tlmt memorable-gathering,'as tho, result of which a' ■muoh-improved.provision, had, beon. made; for ;the'-defenco'of "the.ipominion. The boixowins irrangementSi.bf' the .Prime Minister, were .acclaimed by Mr. Smith as measures which would .'■'strike-.:joyvin,to,. ! thb. hearts' of many-local bodies,".,--The terras on. which' thb Prime Minister hod raised .his loan were nearly equal,,to tha:best' tefms on whiohany. loan had been -raised .in the-past, and'tho,sucobss of this loan' was '.an.answer. to:the.'. people who .had been- saying .that;thb .co.uiitry.'vvas'-nearly bankrupt. -. '-An^VWvoeite^rf-^

.'.' deferring '-to; Native: leases, : especially' with 'regard to ..the, settlement. of TJtiku,. which he s&id'-waVlar'gely.' a failure, Mr.. Smith said he hoped that"tho Native land laws,would be .'amended .to allow holders., to take, up their freeholds..'..This wbuld'be in,the interests of :the Natives :'as s well as. of the t European -lessc6si:,dhd> if .this 'system had obtained, from' .'th6v!first. ; >UtikU would;have been a' thriving settlement; -{pndho.'.land qnestion, Mr.- Smith "siidi-th'at.'ihe'.VaS'-W-s'Wnch believer.in-the op. 'tipnal-Jtenure; r.He would be glad;to,find that thev'leasO'in-perpetuitv..holders .would have the: right-:to, usej.their lease, in perpetuity as a stepping-stone to tho; freehold': on aii' actuarial .basis.'..'-HOvwas;; just' as -staunch/a believer- in. ■limitation-of-areas as In .the optional tenure. Ho moved:'■'.:■":;.-;•'•';'-•', , : , :'■ • '■;.'■■■':,>;■'"-

' .:■ "Tliat.a :■ respectful', address' be presented"' : ■'■ .'.to. his'.Excellency the Governor in: reply to '.'■ .V.,his. Excellences Speech.." '. .; Seconds motion,' - : -: ;Mr: .BtIXTON, '(Gei-aldine); seconded the mo. tib'n; -: : After, .referring to; the productivity of : the country, and ; tho,: gbbd prospects - f or : the .coming ;season;; he {went/on to speak of -the' 'recent-. financial, .stringency, whioh ho: did not „believ«i was, dub tp^the'.legislation bf.tho'Go'v-.ermhent.,.-:H« endorsed.'the''.decisions',of tho, {Defence, Conference,.as ■ far, as ..they; affect New.' Zealand).ahd..spoke',briefly in; favour 'if. comtraining/•,{iThp{prose'nt.'defoDce:,'fbrccs of'':,the'/poininfen;.?uOttld''.-boi-.-p)lt-: in .'order and developed as'.far ; .as i ppssible,- arid then; a- scheme of .-.compulsory,; training; should'bo; set..in- mbr tion'rr'The .'borrowing.-{'policy '.:bf the, Governv •huent was defended by Mr{'Buxton,'who{said that' it,:teh.:million:,pouncjs were borrowed and : {spenty ;ways there would, bo no' ■'danger{'-,t6;.tho' Dominion. Tho, {question, of a {State,,!.noto :should:.--bo,.considered when the) powers of ~the.,Adva'nces. to. Settlers {-Depart-; mo'nt,,woreV enlarged..':,-On-:the .land;-question: Mr.;.Buxtoii.-said:-he had,-no.'objection;to.giv: ihgv'Cr.owh., tenants -the ,-freehold if' they: had thetmorieyjio;:proou'ri'.it.:' olt,'seemed' ; to hirii 1 that) it'.was only {'aiinatter'-of, sentiment:as .bo- : .•:';.: i-. j V/---: ;-••>»,;,« , ,;;, ■ ; ; v'M^M Ri«MASSEY'S'iSPEECH. ',-.•;{i'-; 7'^.

.'-.fMr.'.-ifASSE^-.said thhKtfie?flast 'speaker.was .ivprih;r-:."oE--a';3t)liicb"ftir'-'tMe. Opposition 1 -side rbf' the House," : whefe he hoped to seo -him later.-: The mover.-. of the -I'address.&Wso,■ -had t delivi 'ertd 'a ; re-' tUrnEd; as' ; 'a., supporter of.:,'theeftGovernniont, .could, anybody.-say. that his,speech had been in-, favour ,;bf -,- the 'Government ?■ ■ As■;' regards :Dtiku;.; the; land there was; owned (by., tho Na-,tives,;-and{:had'been; under offer-to .the. Gov..orhment at;a-'satisfactory-rate {for{:years,:but' the' Government had neglected their duty, arid .were unable to, give 'a satisfactory tenure I .in oonsequence.-'Ho' agrepduvith':the mover• bf {the address_that -the, timber, industry had. not been , treatcd-'fairly "by tho; Government.' Ho had sftid;so. v before,>whehtho -Government wero subsidising, the 'trdrap,'■a'tea'm'ers bringing., Ore-pon-';;tiniber;',to ■'compefe' : '-with-rtho-New. 'Zea-' : ;fand. -prcduct:';,The,'commission's report :was ■cdlourfess. and 'meaningless,. 'and "like;, the '.re-- • ports';of:.:rtaSy : .'other cpnimissipns, ; not'; worth, ohertenth 'pf;,what : ,it had. cost the'.people'of -this'.cbuntry.'- Eeferrink to the recent depres,sion,: Mr.. Massey stated that the effect of;the 'decrpasod .revenue-had.ibeen .widely l felt, al-thohgh'-the -Minister, for .Education., had- said; that the.\on!y-peoplo who .'suffered by the'drop {in 1 the price of : tfobl were the'wool kings. ■'{Mr.'Eottldsl'That is.-not'true; {

'.:: Mr.' Massey:. Is that.;n;Parliamontary. term? Continuing, Mr..Massey. stated that tho .interjection ,was. : worthy .of'the AKnister. He-would ask members-to vturh up-.whai'Mr. Fowlds had said;/ He..'had .from:;memory, but:-he Would;staid"-by;his:,statement. Howas' glad to' find that •. the member : for Geraldino was a ;better student.of economics than the Minister . for - Education, since-- ho had stated-that tho effect,of the?fall.of,wool'was distributed. He agreed that' tho recent depression was partly duo to,the fall;iii':value/of-our products, but urged that it was portly due,' also,,to:tho borrowing policy-of "tho Government. They had: borrowed .from : tho vA.'M.P. no. less ■than i 411,334,000, part ,of which' would .- have been -;javailable -. -'for.:, .'investment'-,-.. in -.. the ,oi'dihar-y.ti.way■: yit.-:-. ,.it. : had.;.. "not • been borrowed 'by, the; State,:aThat: was one reason for the stringency, and another reason, was that in consequence of the legislation of tho Government during the last/six or eight years enormous sums had been withdrawn from : this country., The Prime Minister had driven'a list ': of companies' which had witlidrawn' from"operaitionS in New Zealand: The list was perfectly. astounding,: and. ho. had; no doubt as to the reasons 'whioh'.mado. -withdraw. .. He would'-be., sorry if' tho, Government: found ■;' it necessary'jiow';t6'-increase taxation,' to make up for ;the;'reduced ;,Cust6mS'duties, as'he was iafraid was likely, to -bb done this session. He !had .urged? the , necessity., for, closer sottlament ever Bince. ; ho..had:been'a:membev:of the House. V The)' prosperity of'.the .'country depended on it, and. there .were quiteVas: many supporters ,of; closer eettiement among the Opposition as oh.the:other, side of the-House, if: there were; hot more.•; He did 'not, however,; agree that a leasehold :.was as go64'as a .freehold. That ,might' be : a oity. view, but: if the seconder of the Address had'speht 2Sor'3o years'in making iyhat.'was'called a:bush farm,-he;would have frantad; a-.tenuro which-would have'.enabled him-tb.. hand/oii- the„result of. hio labours to 'biß''-faiMly,'i.'aad: r -thosa'-'..'«rho..eanie' after, him.He \-fa\i: sure r that .the-Government in "this as in other- respects' would : come round to the Opposition'siway, of .".thinking.-'■...■; ,-'■■; ,;>. land- Valuations. ~.. ) 'l :' Ho'netted'that lands'for' taxation purposes were valued much too high. -Ho had seen Eoma years: ago- instructions. to a valuer' in which he was plainly' told that whon' bush . land ; was cleared so that no traco of bush could be seen, improvement was hot to count in the ordinary way. Mr..Massey also montioncd an instanoo.in:which land put up at auction in .the Auckland district' on. the'easiest possible terms, wa9 bought for .61000 below the amount ,on. which''the,: former'owner had. paid taxes. Ho : wished to'- welcome, the Primo Ministor back .to tho .Doniinion.; ; Though, they might not have agreed:with his leaving tho country or with the closing down of Parliament, the fact remained that; the Prime Minister hnd been, absent on public business, and on his return'he" welcomed, him' . Tire 'Speech- itself -,was of;iuiusual length, and dealt with an unusual number of subjects They expected to finish, tho session 'about Christmas, but if they wera' to deal properly with all the questions in the Spoooh, it would be ; Christmas, ,1010, .before ' they finished. Porsonolly, he would not mind that. . There were/however, oilo.or tw"o;urgent'matters that were not-mentioned 'in'the Speech. 'There was tho subject of local: government, : than which nothing was'more important, and an nmend-ipiant'of'the-Electoral Act: Was needed, as well as an amending Bill to the Crown Suits Act, which was. a. subject he would refer 'to later. TheTe'-wos IHH6-in the Speech,: moreover,-to Jestbre; confidence-oh the part of those people Vho'-wero not; satisfied '/with their jjrospecta in I

this country, The Speech - contained more of what might bo calldd soothing syrup than 1 of sound legislative proposals..'Mr. Mnssoy again, reforred! in 'terms of' Condemnation, to tho recent prorogation of. Parliament, and'urged that there wis a very .strong, feeling of dissatisfaction with the conduct of tho Government during tho last six months. "Each niemmor" of tho Ministry costs;''on; tho average,' £2000-a year, and each'member of tho Houso a littlo oyor £M. Whcro does tho taxpayer come in, the-gentleman who pays tho bill? What has he had for his money during tho last six months? Precious littlo! Ho has. not even'had legislation. I don't think that' he is going to get mtloh of itnow." But. if ho was any judge, Mr. Maftseysaid,-the Parliament :, and Ministry, that, did not' do. their duty would be told by the peoplo target on or ,to : got out of the way. : He,.belioved that they,,had .a,good Homo of .Representatives,, anxious, on the whole, to do its duty to the country, but It had not .had the opportunity; it hod beon like .a-good- team with 1 tho brakeheld'hard on ,by the Government.. The Defence Conference. ".•'■■.'-'

In regard to "tho' Dofcnco .Conference,, ho wished to say that ho regretted that tho ofHcial documents had not.yet boen.loid on-tho table so-that ho was only able to speak from newspaper reports. Tho Defence Conference did a great deal of ; good, inasmuch as it had brought Imporial statesmen into touch with tho statesmbn of tho Overseas dominions.- Before speaking on tho subject, membors should consult the map as to the. position of. tho colonies, the China station, 'and the trade' routes. The arrangements mado at tho confcrcncb might obtain, not for twenty years, but for all time. He.had not,the .slightest.intention of making the question of defenco a party one, but certainly he and-his party intended to do thoir very best fdr the' Empiro, and for thattportion to which New Zealand belonged. He thoroughly believed in the theory- of standardisation, out so for. as Now Zealand wai concorned it looked like putting the cart beforO: tho torse, because tho Dominion had,nothing to standardise. It was, 'ho considered, a. matter .for regret that more; had not been done at: tho conference in regard to land defence. Ho was'afraid, out' hoped ho would be mistaken, that tho amount which' would be required for naval defence wpnld- leave very' littlo for land • defeuce. ■That matter he would deal with at.a later date, oither by "way of a 8i11,.0r in the form, of a resolution.:. • Retrenchment, , '. - >' ~,

' {Referring to the question of. retrenchment,. Mr. Massey held that the. Government's state-' ment ihat despito its efforts in that direction the efficiency of the service would be maintained vras_ self-condemnatory. (A voice: "It is an admission of oxtravagonco.') Ycs,.it was an admission of : the' worst kind, and every member knew t,hat,.that-was the case in his own .heart.. During his .travels he Jiad. heard many tales .of hardship in the back-blocks, ■where'some'of the.mohoy which had .been wasted might, have been, well spent. ; If ,tho' country was to be prosperous a lot more would have to bo done in the way of land settlement, and the settlers would have to bo given a secure tenure, Thero was no talk of the necessity of retrenchment at the time of tho general olcction. The people now knew the exact position, and that those who were responsible were the;, membors of - the ■ Government, which ■ for years had grossly mismanaged the affairs of the country. It'was, ho thought, ft'.matter for congratulation that. Now Zealand had got through the .depression ..{without greater hardship; to the;wa«e-earriej's than was really the case.;. Though tho depression last winter was not nearly so general as the depression twenty' years -ago, he., believed that' in some of the centres the' hardship in. many cases ,was equally as great.; Through lack of foresight, eto.j.it was a positive faet that directly employment censed a largo section of tho peoplo found.'themselves in difficulties and consequently V increased- responsibilities rested on, tho-Government { in: power. He{ 'hoped New,';'Zealand-.'.-was on ' .the eve.-,.0f. a ■: return to prosperity, but if more favourable : conditions-accrued-it-was vcrr probable- that unless'tho'' "better -managed,it.would,again,bo .followed-by another 'poriod''lilco.;last'!wi,ntcr;:/of hardship. Nobody, wanljcd to,' see'th'e extreme's .of - Wealth,and pov.«-',. {erty',in:.this country. .'"-(Hear, ; hoar,)-. In proper-.' Hon, to, population ; as much hardship in' parte of Wellingtonlast winter as was the case in' London. (Oh, oh I) . '{■•{-,, y. Exbdiis of Good Citizens. '':.- • ,'' n '-,■';. ~. Replying, to the.interjections, he would ask ,was it:, not;.a .faot- that, thousands loft New Zealand,. 1 and .collections:. wore....taken, up'in the churohes? ■ What could be worse than ;thj»t,?..-r:One-ofc ] rtlie- most serious. outcomes of the'depression was'the -exodus of 'so manygood qiti&cns. He did not know how many .thousands were encouraged .to New. Zealand by:,,-iramigrati,on-during the', first.;:six.months' of "tho year,.but'tho'fact-'wis'-that'theVdepaV;, U'areVfrorii thtf'Dominion'during thV period fix,'.' 'c'ceded tho'.arrivals. •'■' ,; ' ■'.;"' ,'.>'. •" --'•■'-' ;The Hon. ;R, M'Konzie: Ton must remember that tho shearersjweresreturning.tO'Australia.. : ■'. Mr. Massey i That is when the shearers roturn. to Australia. l ' -''' '■'-'•'••. '■'. ; :TheJlinistcr:'Yes/it, is.*-:.'.::-:.: i'" . -Mr. Massey: The . hon. gentloman - usually talks.sense,..hut hoiisvnot.doiflg.so,on this, oc--casion. ':■■-',■■ ' •'■:.'■'.' ,-■",■ ■ .Mr/.Massiy.; quoted- tho 'figures for the. first',.'; six-, ".months'- of," .1908,, ..andv lasted how.;>:it • 'was. '■': that '. there,;, was .-.such a-'largo ■ 0f... arrivals over departures; if theshcarors roturned to,; Australia! during-,tbo, . periodi ..Twenty years] ..ago'. ,he: said. «tho. depros- : •sion was'brought aboutthrough itho .stopping ;of, public,;.works,;;but during-tno^recorit■;,depres-sion'; '.bprrowirig^had.';been going oh aS'im'errilyas ■'oveft 1 .-'' ;*'{""{;".-'.V"{V ; '-' '■'■.']'■'' ■ "■'■.. .:{':{- Mail' Services.''>.-'. "■■','.'■■:'. '.'; '■'■■ "■'•■','.'".' ,-Dealing with tho .mail services' lie declared that; the .San Francisco:'service was. tho best the.'Dominion had/ever had.{ .It was,, how-, ever, allowed to' drop and' no serious attempt was'.made to. retain it. Then- again,, the' All Bed' Route ; proposal 'had; been dropped and there Seemed. • no' chatted of a Vancouver, ser-' vice.--The:only chance .just now'seemed to bo a connection with the Canadian-Australian : service at Suva.. Ha.was dolighted to'read,in thO. press. thaV.tho'P;. and'o.. Lino .intended to send some of their steamers oh to New | Zealand; '■ j

;;'' ; ;mr. ; fovvlds-in .reply.-;'- ; The Hon.. G. Fd\VLDS complimented the mover and seconder of the; Address-in-Eeply. He ■■ advised ' new members of. his , party not to sot'a'mistaken. vaLuo. on the nraise of the Leader; of .the Opposition. -. "Generally, when you■':draw'.praise of.that kind," said Mr. Fbwlds, "from your opponents, : tho chances are that you are .in. a position th,at requires careful consideration. I am hot touching on the freehold/' added Mr.'Fowlds. in.roply to Opposition interjections.. Continuing, ■ tho Minister stated that the so-called "pawn shop,"-tho Advances -to Settlers. Department, • had. done much to decrease tho effects of the financial depression.' v. -Sir. Massey.: The. pawn' shop? It had no money. '■'■■ Mr.; Fowlds: A; Department; that' lent ; . out one and three-quarter millions, and no■ money I The bon; -gentleman wanted to know where their misrepresentations came from.. I present him: with :that. .'■■,• • n S„ r -; M&ss ??' ! Nobody could .get more than JSOO from/the department.' ' ■■■■■■■ . • Mr.'Fowldsi.'fhat is no matter. .;■'. , Tho Minister'urged that if'Mr; Massey paid a visit to England,,,he; would -no' longer, b 0 able.to. say that there was as much; hardship in Wellington la6t'winter as there Was in the East End: of' London. ' : ' '■' •.'..■ . Mr. Ma'ssey:, In proportion to population. '- . -f? r - *°™;t dS! Not oven in proportion to population. This was .another. specimen ..of-; the sort Of statements that.did a great-deal of injury, to" the m Cojintry. It was a totally absurd statement. . Talk, about his own wool, statement! -It: was hot' in it with this aosortion for:indisoretion. and. exaggeration. The Famous Wool; Statement. ■'■; : ,'•' , "-'.'' ' As. rtgards the -mol statement,: Mr;' Fowlds explained that he did: not .say .that ~tbo onlv people who" suffered by a fall in the price of wool; wore the wool ' kings.' He" had tried:.. to -..; make two points on the .occasion in : question, ■ first,'- that":in' 'tho production at £1 worth of Wool, there was not as much labour as in tho production of £1 worth of flax, or butter, or other kind of dairy produce that went from the Dominion; .and, second,-that a larger proportion of the revonuo coming hero from'jthe sale of wool wont, into tho hands of woll-to-do people than was tho case in regard to thoso-other commodities. Nobody not a fool or a roguo would deny the truth of those two '.statements. He did not intend that tho hon. gentleman, and—should ;he use the elegant word .which Mr. Massey had used?—his jackolß of, the press, should' misrepresent him in that matter.'-..

and tho Depression. • Mr. Fowlds denied that tho borrowing of the Government had had tho effect of incroasiliu the financial depression. Tho A.M.F.. Society, was always-looking but for gilt-Cdged Securities, that was, Government securities, and during the timo thd Government of Now Zealand' had borrowed tho money referred to from (ho society, tho.society had been looking out for similar: investments in -London itself, and the statement that if the Government had not .borrowed this money it would'have been available for private borrowers in New Zealand was an entire fallacy. It could not .be'.'denied that somo loan' companies had removed their opera-

tions ?rom New Zealand,' but that was becauso tho Advances: : to Settlors -Dopartmont';:had lowored .the ratoof interest. ■----——-- Mr. Massey and the Second Ballot' Bill :'"'' In roply to Mr. Massoy's statements with regard to tho Second Ballot Bill, ho challenged Mr. Massey to mention any proposal' embodying tho principles of that Act-which: he had supported.' ■ ■ • - ■.'■..:.'. ,v - -, Sir. Massey: I voted for-the Absolute Mil- • jority Bill and the Contingent Voting Bill, and for yoars past I have been an enthusiastio supporter of tho system of preferential voting, in which the. Hon. gontloman himself believed : until he-became a Minister of tho'Crown. Mr. Massey added that he had consistently opposed the Second Ballot; Bill.- .'- -,■ : • ••> - Mr. Fowlds road returns • purporting to show that.Mr. Massoy had fairly consistently, if-.no't invariably, voted against Mr. M'Nab's Absolute Majority .8i11......■• . .-.,-.. . . .Mr.. Massey; What about-the Contingent .Vot, ing Bill.introduced by Mr. Lewis? Why don't you.say that I voted for it? •■■:• ;■ Mr. l'owlds said it was true that Mr. Massoy had-voted -.with, v him ' for preferentialrepresentation, but he had voted against tho Abs9-' lute Majority Bill, which was tho only measure that embodied- tho',.principles of -tho Second Ballot Act. ■Mr. Massey denied that it was the-'cnly measure. • ' . Continuing, Mr. Fowlds' said that Mr.Massey had opposed tho Second Ballot Bill as though it were'a. "device of the Evil One to do injury to him and tho pooplo he represents. : ■-.■■• ; Mr. Massey: So it . was. (Laughter.) The : Financial Stringency. ..Reverting to. the recent financial: stringency! Mr. l'owlds urged that members of the Opposition did nothing, to assist tho Government id curtail expenditure. He thought that tho measures taken by tho Prime Minister when ho was in England-had probably done more, to relieve the position than could have been dond if. had. continued, to sit. .. Tho reason why the depression was 'especially felt m Wellington was that land-gambling . had reached a worse degree in this city than elsewhere.. In regard to land valuations,, Mr. Fowlds argued that the Opposition party wero pursuing the same -policy' as:tho opponents of, the Budget,in England' in .representing that the increases in tho, value of land were: ; not the result of money, spent by.tho State in development and improvement, hut of: excessive. valuations. As a matter of fact,, instead; of the valuations .being too high; taking the country as a whole they were 30 per Tent., below the actual selling value. The tactics of, the Opposition-were identical with those of the "Dukes.- and- Tories- in- the -.'Old,",Land."(Laughter.) Mr. Fowlds stated that in. .1891' ihe unimproved value of land in New .Zealand; .was .£75,832,465, and eighteen years afterwards it was .£172,101,323, an increase of £96,268,858. OTHER SPEECHES. ' ; Mr. FISHER (Wellington Central) referred to. Mr. .Fowlds. as, one who held tho most convincing opinions on. a very important subject, 'and had always been willing to cover thom under his Ministerial chair. Yet it was. suggested that tho Government .side. was. tho onjy.:\ side ..whose members were 'guided- by principles. 'Mr. Fisher made a' vigorous pro-' test against associating with the present Opposition whatever sins and iniquities-were perpotrated by. 'tho.'Conservative party;, of •; the. early '80's. f'Tako L the members thatrsit around mo, and/myself personally,", sai'd: Mr., Fisher. -"Is it right that you'should, put,'on mo any of the disabilities:or burdens that belonged to the 4 party of the '80*6,' rand, if-yori' are going to impose them on us./whyoTiotbo fair and impartial, and own that from this party thero sprang.tho greatest Socialistic institutions ■in any. country? •■• Who. gave you. your State railways, your Public Trust Department? The Hon. E. C.--J. Stevens, the originator of. that Department, would be regarded from' the Government side of tho House as a ornstod.-old .Tory, and he had given them' one of the 'finest examples/of Socialistic:'in-, stitutions- that any. country could.-produce." Whore" did: they .get, thoiv Government Life Department; their educational':.endowments? Irom'the Old party, which to-dayUat .on 'the.' other sido. of the House and whioh they condemned.,. Moreover, members !•' foiled '•■ to realise, what , existed in this • 'city today. When .'they, -spoke 0f... tho ..old soup-kitchen <■ days '. they : should' r'omem-' ber. .that-: <thoy "were very near ;the soup kitohen last-winter.:--. In this city- there- weroas many as" three'families with children- liv-' ing. in ono house, there wero married men with' families earning • from 15s; ; to ■ 17s. ■ 6d."-'a'- week, ■ in spite.,of'the:."magnifioent-Liberal, policy."; Ono would imagino that, there wcrc.no Liberal' sympathies 'on...his sido of the ,Houso what-. eyc,r. : - J)idahcy.. imagine the magnificent : slieech, pJjMr. on this Budget,., : had not booh,ifcochoe'd on th'rit sido *of rtha ■ Hause?(No,'ho! )'";,' "C ';!.",..'''". ;'■•--. . v

..Liberalism,,; .-,'■-'.. ..•-, .:,,.....■. '"'.," J Did:'they, imagine that thojr, on the Ministerial 'Side, .were the. monopolists of the Lib-' oralismnf this'country? Many'men on that side-were the 'monopolists' of the sham Liberalism/of this .country." If'the Opposition party returned ',to power, there would' bo no desiro to repeal of the beneficent, legislation'of recent,years.''.He'did' not believe thore was. any member of that party who was anxious to attain, the Ministerial benches by means of a slump. He thought that any of them would' sooner sit on^tho-..Opposition- side, for forty .rears than-see a..slump. (Hearj,.-hear.j-i Mr. lishcr protested' against'-;the' suggestion that the.;. Advances,.to .Settlers, -Department! • had' plentyr, of.-lnjqndy during ■the- depression al-' though,., wneii,..the,. Prime:-Minister, raised aloan,' halfififit was swallowed by,.£he.Depart-i ment at .bhe-gulp, and the Department was: still .thirsty. - If-the Department was going-: to reduce'the .rate.of .interest it must ncces-: snrily, displace private' capital, and for every £1 it displaced it must put' another into the country. . V\, '.;.',- v-'v He declared that a ; : compulsory?'"training. soliemo was required not only for defence''purposes . ""t as an. educational factor. Itfstead. of tho Empire-going to bo a. nation with'.'dependencies, it was going to be a federation of nations.';-. .The question of Empire defence-was going to be dealt with from a- non-party Ipoint of 'view.. ; r •.....':.'-■■'."• .'■■" ■ ■■ Warning to the Government. ; _Mr.' POOLE (Auckland West) stated.''that there was. a foeling of disappointment prevalent owing to the fact that the Liberals wero not. so. aggressive: as they might'-b'el.-iio' wanted .'to ask the Liberal leaders <to help to; lift the country from the present state of: stagnation. (An Opposition: member: Vfa are' doing it—Laughter.; There was - a.measure of' poverty-in this.country whioh -was' self im- : posed.- He denied that: the Government had been responsible for the late depression; The dav.elopme'nt of. the British, markets-was going to do a lot to help.New Zealand,"Ho : .agreed ; that the Nativo lands must resettled,' and if' tho Natives objected a measure:of compulsion, must bo:used,. '.-<.-.-■.. .'■"'„'■';'■,-.•■ .Mr. Massey':'The: Natives, are quite willing. Mr. Poolo: And some who agree with you' in politics are willing to exploit them. : , Mr.Massoys.That is not si). , . :-.'... ■ Mr. Poole went on to say that there.-.was a growing feeling, especially in thocentres,' that, there must bo a fairer participation in the privileges of land and privileges than'in the past. He declared that-the.-Advances to Settiers Office had saved many a settler from ruin.. 'Mr. Massey: I agree with you, but.'moneywas dearer last winter than at any' Other time for the ■ past twenty years. • • ■ ■ ' Sir-Joseph Ward: But. what would it have been >if the Advances to Settlers Office had not been-in existence? ■•-.■-• Resuming, Mr. Poole said tho time 1 had arrived when the 'rpeoplc should have -more control of tho-hanking system. Ho was pleased to hoar that the P. and 0, steamers wore going to extend'their visits to-New Zealand. This was probably being done in view of the opening 1 of the Panama; Canal. ,Ho thought '.that no One would object, to: ;d%iili. subsidy being given to ■ the ■ Oceanio Line once : more. Tho time was coming when the bare, majority principle- should be, -approved in connection iwith the liquor question.- ■ ' i ■■ i Upon the motion of Mr.-Guthrie, the re.sumption of the dobate was adjourned, i and it was decided to meet again at 7.30 o'clock this evening. '.*...■.'