THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 2, Issue 532, 12 June 1909, Page 3

THE HOUSE.

PUBLIC SERVICE BILL.

' ~;.• moved by, mr. herdman. // some important; speeches., ~. The, House met at.'.10.30 a.in; ' ■-■ '• : - , ' 'After .the usual guestiona and- petitioner • Mr> t , U FF .&)': moved that Jeave-b'e granted' to introduce a Public Service Bill, 19U9., He thought it was only tair that some general information of the scope of .the proposed Bill should be submitted'to members.: ■,'■■•'■ ' . .;The Prime Minister' suggested that ■ members should be allowed to' seo the Bill 'first.' . Mr. Hordman replied that it was not yet submitted. He, thought :it was highly:desirable .that, an -amendment should be made mthe.law toplacotho pubh'c service on a sound; foundation. One'had'only to think ot the recent development in the public service, to recogmso' that a change' in the system; of management, was; required.. ■ ' ' ! •" : i Mr.vLaurenson: (Lyttelton) asked if if wW not unusual.for a member introducing a Bill '.to.deliver:.a speech on that Bill; ■ -: t The Speaker ruled that, it'was unusual, but that. there.:was..nothing. to' prevent it. , . A Voice: Wasto of time. ' ■'• . :■ -' 'Tho, Prime' Minister said that, for a mem-ber-to explain the provisions of a Bill that nobody had seen was a most unusual course. Mr. Herdman:,lt has been done.dozens of times.:- i- ■■•---.-''■; ■.'.:".'...,. ",'.'.'■, ■:.'':. ...;. ~ .- %_The Priffie; Minister added that the notive. ■of-such'- action ■could;.':be',.'cbrijecturecl. • • - Speaker quoted'a'rilling of Sirllau'rtce' U Korke justifying the proceeding ■ Mr.'Massey: I "hope the right Eon'.' member will not further waste/the timeof the House. -(Laughter.): • .■-;■■ ■-■.■.■,■:' .• Servlce';lri a Critical -PpslVloh.:' /;' - ■■ ! _Mr.;-Hordman . said 'he!, would, not' have adopted that: course if the' Government had decided to goojn with: the business-of the country. Ihe:public service was just now'in a that deserved instant criticism. During tne last ten years it had grown to enormous dimensions, ajid the Prinie Minister had admitted'.in his speech at Upper Hutt that, .it had increased teyorid all .reasonable bounds, vand that'in: the interests of • the country.it was. desirable-to' bring about re- ? s ,' bad grown and expanded unduly because Departments hadbeen stuffed, with persons utterly'• unable to perform the.' duties of their office. Political influence had been exerted in making appointmehtu to the service.-'He desired to introduces Bill that would do with that political influence, and : p!aco it; beyond the power of Ministers to mako appointments of that kind.■ The timo'had come to speak in plain terms on this matter.- He suggested that a Bill should be introduced to create a Public Service.; Board of three persons, which would.; have .absolute of the public servicea -of; the Dominion, and that aprjHitments' should be made not by Mimi.ft-s, but'by .'competent gentlemen appointed by Parliament for that purpose Ho refenod to the system-of Pubhc Service Boards in' New, South Wales, Victoria; tho Commonwealth; aiid, ho thought, another I Australian Stated The members of the Public Sorvice Board could not'to dismiesed by Ministers. They.would, be on a similar footing to judges of the Supremo Court, who could not be; dismissed '■■ without a vote .of Iwth Houses.'. The board would-consist'of three men, or of one man if they preferred.; Tho whole vicious system of the present : time, would then be done;away v,-ith. •'■ • ;: . The Covernmcnt's Confession. ■ , When the Clovernment said that they could save £250,000 a. year without i3ipairi*ng : tile' efficiency.of the public sorvicc it nieaht-that they had been spending ■ £260,000 of the public's money'niore than' have spent" if theyhad conducted tlieir.business in a pn> per-way. '■ He.regretted that so many public servants throughout,:the Dominion'' were -be-' ing dismissod..'Many nipn were being''turned out who had'been' faithful, to "the Crown'for years,.and ono heard ..complaints pit, every 1 hand. The state,of things tSat existed , at tlio present time -should never have come about'.' The men who were now being retrenched had beenjod to belipvo that while they gave efli--oient. and loj'al 'service their positions ' wpre secure. '.They had; been deluded by ■, false hopes. ' The); now found that through a long cpurse.pf mismanagoment the pubhfc service had-got into such ,a.state that the Govern-, ment admitted that an alteration must.take placo, and so these men were being thrown out ,pf the Departments,'.many of them absolutely; unfit to earn their living, iu any other calling*: It.would no doubt bo said by the Government that. tho Public Service Boards in Victoria and New South Wales had not been, satisfactory. '. ; ' . , : Mr. Laurenson's Consistency. . '■.■'■' ' Mr. Laurenson (Lyttelton): "Hear,,hear." , Mr..Herdman:.Thp lion, member for Lyttelton says ;'Hoar, hear." I 'remember wh'en the..'lion, .'member himsolf proposed to introduce a Public, Service, Bill—(laughter)—and when lie know that I was going to introduce a Bill he very, kiiullysfated that lie 'would allow his Bill to stand asido that my. Bill might be introduced. .(Laughter.) Doos he say. that Public Service Boards in Australia have been a failure? Does he.say that,tho management of tho Now South Wale's railways under a Board of Commissioners lias been.a failure? ' . '

■Mr. LaurcJison: Our experience of a rail way board was a failure. , '

Mr. Honliiian: It never had a chance. If it had not been interfered with it would ha-vo been much more satisfactory to-day than the management of the" railways under'a Minister who said.to-day that it hud.been a failure. . The :hon. member- would probably havea chance to make a speech later. '.. ;' • , Mr. Laurcneoii: He won't take advantairfl Of it. . ■■■■•'■ .::,■ ■.:;>■■: ■ h : Mr. Herdman: Well, no doubt the House will be grateful if'ho does not take advantage of it. (Laughter.) ; ... . .

Mr. Hordman said he Had taken some pains to learn if the system in Australia was a success or a failure, and ho had put detailed inquiries to the Hon. T. \V. Waddell, .who had boon actively associated wWi tile publie service of New South Wales, and . was formerly Minister for Railways of that State. -Mr. Hordman read his letter to the Hon. T. W. Waddell, asking for information.: and the reply received. Mr. Hcrdraan's letter stated that he understood that in Now South Wales independent boards controlled the Savings Bank, Advances to Settlers Office, Government railways and tramways, wharves and harbours, and the public service. He asked: (1). Does tho administration cf Departments of State by boards do away with political interference? (2) Does the administration of the publio service by moans of a board do away with the ovil of political appointments? (3) Are Departments, more economically and efficiently managed under non-political boards? (4) Is there any desire on the part of any party in your State, particularly the Labour party, to revert to a condition of things which would givo a Minister of the Crown power over appointments and promotions in the service? (5) Has any political section expressed desire that the Railway Department, for example, should, be taken out of the hands of tie Commissioners and vested in a Minister of.tho Crown? By the expression boards, he meant boards appointed under some statutory authority and removable only upon a vote of both Houses of Parliament.- ..:,

A Satisfactory System. Mr. WaddelTs reply was as follows;— ■■'■ ' . Sydney, 2Sth May. 1909. Dear Sir, —Yours'of the 7th instant ■ to hand, inquiring how the system of having boards free from political in-', fluence to manage the' railways, etc., : has succeeded "in this State.. , ■■• In reply, I beg to state that it is now about twenty years since tbo management : of the railways and tramways was placed in the hands of a non-political board. Although, of course, complaints ' are sometimes made, the. system has worked exceedingly well, aid I do not remember . any proposal ever having been made :n the House to.return .'to the old system of political- control. The . management . of the Harbour. Trust, arid also the water ' and soworage worksj is in the.hands of ■ non-political boards, which have : given tho greatest satisfaction, and a proposal .■ / has never been made to my knowledge by any, member of the Assembly to revert to ; the_old systenf.. The management of the public service is also in "the hands of a board.free from political control, and so : is that of the Government Savings Bank, ; . and the system' is working well in both . cases. ■..■ ..■ -. : ,-. ' :■■•.■..". .1 do not think the' people >of. v New South Wales will ever think of going : back to- the system of political .control ,m connection with any of these matters. '■:. To do. so would undoubtedly.be' a , retro- ' grade step.—l-am, yours faithfully, '-.' - ;:..., ', : T. WADDELL.;;: Police Force Criticised. ! ■ Mr. Herdman continued that it was a wellknown fact in Wellington, that the condition of the police force was highly unsatisfactory, and that was entirely due, he behoved; to the fact that no proper supervision was exercised by the head of the Department in making appointments. He did not in any, way, blamo the. ■.present . Minister tor Justice '/for tho: present position. He was inclined 1 to think it was-the head of the' Department who .was responsible. He referred; to. the- recent case against two constables in Wellington. The Department was in a: condition of chaos'almost, entirely owing to the fact ; that political influence. was exerted in regard to appointments: That state of /not. be.allowed to 3 -b-n' S; pl ' ln , c '? al ob ' eot ' in 'Promoting the Bill was to-bring abput.a condition: of things that would make the public servico not a huge charitable institution, to whichall needy persons wore appointed who had some influence.and would vote'at election times, but an organisation conducted ■ on sound and efficient linos. The Bill'was just as much m the interests of Civil Servants asof. the countryas" awhole.' v '- : ■'•''.-• : V PRIME MINISTER REPLIES. . The PRIME MINISTER said'that, although hemight-be helping Mr. Herdman in oc'cVi siomng delay, still he could not retrain from' making. some remarks in reply. ' Mr Herdman had not outlined his Bill./ He' had simply put th'o fact' that the public servico should bo handed over, te an autocracy. He might rembd u members that the Oiovernment had already" announced its intention of reducing, the public expenditure by a quarter of .a million.. He was one who believed that there, would bo something in the shape of consistency in the matter oi the expression- of the. views held by memeWH™ °PP° siti °? /Party- Before the election, the organ, which voiced their, views bad advocated swoeping'reduction's. ;An evi- ? '«^ e^s^rityof-the'- P arty was pyen on,the occasion of the first sittme for business . The' speech -that, had usK W T S^' ? «i !ll h ;in " the direoti oi of shot mg that the Government ought not to reduce.... Mr.. Herdman had endeavoured to make political capital out,of the -fact that the bovernment were retrenching. The Bill wh.ch he proposed to "introduce g would give members of the board it was sought to set ™ I A atl ° P r ers; c A ary on the wishes; of the Opposition was .hat more than one member of that party toilets^ 6 aPP atl ° n to have PMC pufinto Mr., Massey: They can't,help that.' bir Joseph: -And ambrig them was thr Leader.of tho Opposition. ' ■ : Mr.-Massey :'-And. why not?" '' ' ' ' k » tf h i S! * that that was ■he way that the Opposition was trying , to Sinn 6 Go^ nDlent , to.' prevent Taping, 3> the . « V^?: about the putting on of a half million :extra. last year. ■ ; , "Wei Won;t Turn." '.' ,'.': ; \ 'fI S j r i oSC ß h warmth): I teli you-now hat, the Government jrffl, not be Reflected from course which;it is pursuiiiß. Net her adverse cnticism nor fault-firidTng on the part of the Opposition will deter the' Government from what .it is doinc Wβ' have '.announced 'what we intenrl. to do • wo are fg o.ingte doit; we won't turn. ' jo * l ™ bers of Opposition: We don't, want Sir Joseph proceeded to say that it was a grange thin*'for members of the oZsi' turn to preach economy and then , at the■same time to. recommend . applicant, for posiUons, despite the fact that the Government _tos retrenching. Was it not a fur«ior tribute to the sincerity of Opposition' members that on tho first day of tho sitting they f should ask. for the expenditure of three or four m.llions-at any rate two mil-lions-on railways, roads, bridges, etc! Ho wished to say in a frirndly wav that the Ciovernment.. was not going te ,bo' subjected t<. anything m the' shano of • unfair criticisin. Ihe Government knew the courso to follow,in order, to bring, about the equilibnum of .the finances, and intended to folow that Mr. Herdman had read a letter from Mr. WaddelL. of Sydney, with regard to the control of State Departments in New' South Wales. When the time arrived he (Sir Joseph) would road the report of a special commission set up.to inquire into the Public Service-Board-in that State ' Air. Herdman: What year? Sir Joseph said he was not'sure of the date They would then find that it was mldcr sucli a Bysleni as that which it was suggested by Mr. Herdmnn should be introduced that had broueht about tho insolvency of the pensions fund there. : loices: Question? Tha Question of Over-Expenditure.

.'iho Primo.Minister went on to say that tho New Zealand Government's scheme, making provision for Civil Servants who had boon retired, would confer great benefits on them. The doctrine propounded, that because the Government proposed to make reductions, . it .suggested that there had been oror-experiditiiru in the past, would not stand close, much less analytical, examination, : inotnbers would realise that during the' past live or six years,- vory large sums wore being spent in the development of the country—for example, the completion of tho .North Island. Main Trunk lino.-Thia■ necessitated tho- einplgjaMUt of.a

large number of people, both at tho scat of Government, and elsowhere. Surely no one would now argue that, seeing that that and other big undertakings had been ' concluded, tho Government should not make the reductions that tho altered circumstances called for? Another typical case was Hip Public Health Department, which, when it was created, had to work on untouched ground. Tho final and fixed portion .of that Department's work would be as much for tho future as for the present. To-day tliero was no need to employ such a largo staff in connection with tho .Department, ■ and when the reductions were mado it would still be carried on efficiently. The same remarks would apply to other Departments. Hβ did not wonder that some people in Wellington—and some of the membere for this city—should immediately show their desire to have unnecessary expenditure continued at the seat of Government. It was perfectly well known that if the Government bad been. gmded. by members representing tho city of Wellington, New Zealand would have gone to the,dogs in no time. Voices: Nothing of the sort. Sir Joseph went on to say that the members for this city ,were afraid of their own shadows—that- m order to keep their seatt, they advocated large expenditure, and thny looked to the Civil Servants to help them Jo retain their positions. "Hear, hears," from Government members; and loud criea of No from the Opposition. Behind the Scenes. . Sir Joseph declared, in reply to an interjection by Sir Hardy that he could say that there was nothing behind the scenes that the Government was afraid of. Hβ said that the Irtivernment had faced the position fearlessly and to the best of its ability-retrenching friends and opponents alike. It was not going to be influenced as to whether its every action met with approval or condemnation With regard to the railways, seeing that the matter had been referred to he would say advisedly; deliberately; and'emphatically that during the term of office of tho commissioners only a few people had wanted to have the system continued Farmers had got up in arms against tho system—business men had cried out against ifc— in fact, nearly everybody wished it to bo abolished. . .. Mr. Massey: That is what the people are saying about the present system. Sir Joseph said the people would never consent to the placing of'twenty millions of the pnb ic property in the hands of three irresponsible men who could do what thoy thought nght without reference to the people and just when they liked and how they liked _Mr. Herdman: They would be subject to i Parliament. ,■ ■ . • '. Parliament and Commissioners. Sir Joseph asserted that they would not bo subject to Parliament at all. During the time that tho commissioners had held office charges had been unduly high, and great diAculty was experienced in getting facilities. Why the Liberal Government had been returned with a mandate from the people to put an end to the system. Mr. Herdman wished to place the State Departments in the hands of a board which would have powers superior te those of Parliament. His nroposal was based merely upon a theoretical assumption. Did the State employees realise what it would mean?. Supposing that reductions had to be made under the regime of commissioners? All tho Treasurer would require to say was that tho public expenditure !^nnJn aV ° ]V be h ? £$0,000 - ot £500,000, and the responsibility in the matter would be thrown on the board Mr. Massey: Not at all. . Sir Joseph that that was what had happened in Now South Wales. The people would find that the board would dSs ruthlessly any servant,. whether fitted or unhtted for-his post. Whon'details of the government scheme were submitted' to Farjament, _ members would have' a full opporK u revi6Wln 6 and criticising themand, if they chose, of putting the Governr\' °SVS Offico - All thafc P° WCT TOk be,handed to two or three people because Wellington members to assist them to keen thoir.. positions ' e Mr. Herdman: That is grossly unfair A Member: What do they say? * vnSt } OS ? P } * Sa 'l tbat certain Ci "l Serrftv f w'n- \ tbe ' of tho AVclington to assist them to keep Voices: No, no. Retrenchment. The Prime. Minister said that upon the question of retrenchment ho could not help noticing how quickly there had been a tar£ T\tZ* e *P People of theX sn,,rl $° - n ~i?T L quickl *' from the' same sources, there had been a desire te try to wTe affelteT tf for those "& HZ previously the same people bad tried to,move heaven and earth to bring; about wholesale reductions. But the borernment waa going to carry out its proposals to the extent of the amount named --and, if # necessary, it would do more. Iγrespective of what was said, tho Government would put. the financial posS of New as it should ■ do. During diffi-t-bcr\had a,Way3 been a Vat. deal of criticism, and, in due course « n e m r Uld rt in , wh y- The fact wag that some people, who had large interests in this country allowed. their names to bo used, an b ?, ,lSed ' in an attempt to weaken its financial pos tion. Tho samn the people of New Zealand in times of stress excruciating rates of interest. A system a .sedeffort had hoen made recenUy to crt ate the that New Zealand was in a bad way-that it w M on the eve o f y - That had come - he continued the same. source. It could be seen from the hondhncs in the Australian paperswo,winf h n sa * tb at-members rf.rrJf^TM 19 *° which he had referred that the gravest in ustice was being done the peoph, o f New Zealand. As a matter of fact, the country was not bankrupt,' r£,;H,° u ?H to ■ be - porfect 'y wel) 'known Junng tho last year, at a time recognised to be one of extreme difficulty,' damaging Rtatements made In conclusion, Sir Joseph.said that he did not object to the advocacy of a change of system. What he ejected to was-the aspersions made against the Government unfairly.and without necessity. -Every member ought to know that in oraer to keep the financial position strone two courses Tiad to , be followed if the expenditure exceeded the revenue: either the expenses had to bo reduced, or additional axation must be imposed. The Government had a difficult and painful duty, and it intended to fulfil it. : ■ . ■ THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION. Mr MASSEY said it was his desiro tn assist the Primo-Minister to expedite the business of the session. . But Sir Joseph had shown that time was no object; that ho was m no hurry. His speech bad been improper unfair, and, he might add, unworthy of the rime Minister. (Hear, hear.) It would not damage tho Opposition in tho slightest extent, and ho ventured to say that when 'it was. made public it would havo the effect ot damaging tbo Government party He went on to say that the Opposition had done nothing to damage the credit of the Dominion, .and he wished- to contradict most emphatically any statement to tli6 contrary (Applause.) As a matter of fact, the Opposition had been particularly careful in the matter; it had refrained at. times from criticising when it was entitled to do so • and | n * I V s -, r< s s l? ecfc ile did llot know but that it had failed in its duty. The Credit of the Country. What had given the impression that the Dominion was on'the' vorgo of bankruptcy? Was it- not the actions of Ministers themselves? (Hear, bear.) Why, a Minister of the Grown (Mr. Hogg) had rqcentlv stated that this country should go in for the issue of paper money! What was more likely to damage tho country than that?. Then again if anything was necessary to damage, the credit-of tho country, it would bo found in the admission of Iho Prime Minister tlint it u-as necessary to cut down the public expenditure to the extent of £250,000. The! Opposition admitted that, retrenchment u-as ' nocessary, v aud were anxious todo'iiTiat tras I right: to help to-'retrench-, so as to bring tho i expenditure within tf» revenue,- Hβ'sub. \

mitted that the Opposition was more careful of the credit of the oountry than tho Primo Minister and hie colleagues. Mr. Herdman was sincere in his desire to see tho public service reformed. That member had proved his sincerity on more than one occasion. Why, four years ago lie had introduced a Bill similar to tho one under discussion. j\nd there- was no doubt about the i sincerity of thoso who supported Mr. Hordman. Tho time would como when tho people would insist on such a law being placed on tbe statute book—and tho sooner it was done the bettor. There was no doubt in his mind that tho present system was a bad one—and far too extravagant. In order to damage the proposal of Mr. Herdman's, the Prime Minister had said that the system iii operation in New South Wales had killed the pensions scheme. Sir Joseph:'l did not say "kill." Class Houses. Mr. Massey (continuing) said he doubted the correctness of Sir Joseph's statements. There was' more than a doubt about the soundness of some of the superannuation sohemes in operation in New Zealand. Those who lived in glass houses should not throw stones. Ho (Mr. Massey) would admit ibnt he had recommended applicants for positions in the public service recently. And why shouldn't he? Ho. was the representative of 12,000 electors, and ho had to look after their interests, and he was going to do it. So long as the present system obtained, lie would on behalf of his constituents take advantage of it. There could be no doubt but that the present system was a bad ouo, and ought to bo abolished. The Prime Minister had referred to what happened when the railways wore under control of commissioners. He would admit that they did not give satisfaction to many of the people, but ho believed that more intense dissatisfaction was felt in regard to tho way in which the railways were managed at present. The nailways were in a worse position than ever they were during tbe time the commissioners wore in office. , It was well known that the railways were not paying; the Minister for Railways had admitted that that was so. In view of tho number of the railways and the industry of the people, they ought to pay if they were properly managed. He would not say that what was wrong was political mismanagement, but ho would say that it .was political interference. If the peonlo wanted to get an idea of the wire-pulling that went on they should read the evidence of Mr. J.ncltson. before tho Addington Inquiry Commission. He would , not suggest that they should go,back to the old system of commissioners. Whatever happened with regard .to railway management, there should always be a Minister •■for - . Railways, who wonld-be responsible to the Government for i their conduct. What he said was that more business management and less politic.nl interference was wanted. Sir Joseph had said that if the public service was under a board and Hie troamrer said that tire exwndituj-e should be reduced, the responsibility .would he on-the board. Surely the Primo Minister rtid not expect-members as intelligent men to believe that? .. . ■ •

Sir Joseph: It is quite correct. . ex Prs s «d the opinion that th fl responsibility would h<v on the'shoulders of r«?,,r^n Urer Wh ° made the P™!" os3, for th e icunction. _ ■

Sir Joseph: But not for the details. pJL r " , M surprised that the Prnno Mm,ster should mako such a statement. Ho was satisfied that Sir Joseph would not find one member of his side who would S,T ) h M m> House owod •• debt of gratitude to Mr. Herdman for introducing the R-lF m f T, HcTdman from explaining the w ' W ™ right in tW of Mr Hogg and fehe Flour Bill on a former was wrong m.the case of Mr. Herdmon and » l *° Public service. He sin-that-when the House settled down to business it would deal with tie subecfc tho TOU g%. Personally ■Lβ would have UKed to see tho. proposal ..emanate-from'the Government side of tho House. OVelliagtoi, , Central) said that the Prime Minister's reply Ms based on a misconception of what Mr; Herdman said. «£«?t.T'i'W at tho present retrenchment, bnt the system which had made retrenchment necessary. . Mr. FisW quoted figures showing : flie enormous increase in the ?™ r that ,the country thoroughly endorsed KJTt. r ? tt^l * ffieat . though whether K« • °, f ■ t^ aAt " he ™ m n ot sayHe supported Mr. Massey : s statement in regard to recommending candidates for-the serr R X I !- S< ? ted the Prime Minister's suegestum that the Wellington numbers now and m the past' was of a kind to Z\!h£ mtT7 V lO d °S B - Th « WellingpZjS oftaSrf * I l? resalta «vee' of tho people of -Wellington, who were in the beet position to observe and judge the aotionHf the government.. Hβ hoped tot &c Bffl would be moved L again next session, and fc M y Pl^^ be etatute bookbetter for Matusters and membors to be rid of he responsibJity of always finding balete, | and free ttieox attention to the ' legislat,on of the country. He wondewd tr ftje reason, Prime Minister 'and others opposed the Bill. In the growth of the C.v>l Semce, with the poUtrcaf power it gave to Ministers, ho saw a great, danger to' t ?r° C^ Cy - V m Government carried out their retretichnient scheme faixly justly there would be no opposition from the Opposition s.de of the country/but no man'! P i i?L C r '/ eL § Ion ' OT viows of any kind should be considered in the process. - Mr M'LAREN stated that his experience m iSew South Wales,.and when a man was

The Hon. T. J-V DUNCAN objected that the effect of establishing a Public Service Hoard would be to concentrate the entire Civil Service in Wellington. ™ Mr HERDMAN, in replying; said that the element of patronage had been almost entirely eliminated by the Australian boards Hβ was far sincere in regard to.this Bill that he intended to advocate it on evorv opportunity during the nest three years. ■ The Bill was read a first time , Ihe Speaker asked what date was sugeested for the-second reading. t J Ir - Herdman:'This day fortnight. (LaughAir. Fisher's Sunday Labour Bill, and Mr Sidey s New Zealand Time Bill were also introduced and read a first time. The House adjourned at 1 p.m. till 2 30. THE ADDRESS-IN-REPLY. MR. MASSEY MOVES AN AMENDMENT. : When tho House resumed at 2.30 Mr. FORBES (Hurunui), in moving the Address-in-Heply to'the Governor's Speech said that although tho Speech was a short one,, it contained mattor of the greatest importance, and ho wished to place on record his conviction of the-wise'and-statesmanlike policy it expressed. He reviewed the various clauses of the Speech, and urged that it .would not bo fair to bring forward important legislative proposals in the absenco of the Prime Minister. Mr. F.brbes's speech occupied about fifteen minutes. The motion proposed by him was as' follows:— That a respectful address be presented : to his Excellency the Governor in reply to bis Excellency's Speech. . Mr. E. H. TAYLOR (Thames) seconded tlio motion. Ho thought that our patriotism should bo above- all .party, politics, all hatred, malice, and uncharitablenoss. The suspension of the country's business was a small sacrifice compared with oiir Imperial debt. ' i SPEECH BY MR. MASSEY. Mr. MASSEY moved an amendment that a clause should be struck out of the address expressing approval of an early prorogation. He did so with regret, but the members of Ills party comd not express their concurrence with that clause. As scarcely any public matters of consequence would be dealt with this session, he. would not discuss many matters in his speech. He congratulated tho mover and seconder of tho Address-in-Rcply, and agreed with most, of the opinions they had expressed. Ho was as anxious as tho niiMiiber'for Thames to raise patriotism ahovo party, above splnshrioss, and abovo selfglorification. He : agrecd with' ihn need that hull.been expressed■ for■ social-loKislatioii, but the country was anxiously waiting for it now. He> agreed'.'that there wasVnotbili" which tho.oountry requited l .so urgently as

to break up land monopoly. But where was tho land monopoly? Was it not the monopoly of Crown lauds, of Native lands, for which tho GoS'crnment was alone responsible ? "I wainV right hero to make an earnest protest against tho postponement of tbo business of this Parliament," said Mr: Massey. I opposed it at the informal meeting, and I tako this opportunity to record my protest in Parliament itself." Unfortunately, a majority of members had practically affirmed their unwillingness or incapacity to perform the duties for which they were elected. That question was practically settled.' Ho had done with/it, and other questions of great public importance would have to stand over m consequence. ■'•■'...■' Humiliating Position. , No reason had been brought forward to justify tho adjournment, and ho did. not think that any existed, and, in consequence, the people and Parliament of tho country were being placed in an exceedingly humiliating position. They were practically admitting tnat there was no man hut the Prirao Minister, in a population of one million people, wno could represent the Dominion at the Defence Conference, and no man among the Prime Minister's colleagues who could carry on the business in :his absence. The Prime Minister of Australia was Bending to the conference a representative whose position corresponded, as far as he could understand, to that of the Hon. T. Mackenzie,' who, by tho by, would make a particularly good representative on this occasion. He did not object to sending the Prime Minister to tho conference, but he did object to the business of the country being played with in the way Parliament intended to play with it this session. "The responsibility is not ours. It rests with thoso members who voted for it at the informal meeting, and intend to vote for it in Parliament." ' - The New Ministers. ■ Referring to now members,: Mr.': Massey "I congratulate'myself that .the position is altered from the party , point of view. The party I represent _has been strengthened, and the party behind the Government has been weakened correspondingly, arid I believe we shall have betterjcgislatioir ;in consequence." Changes -had alto < taken place on tho Ministerial benches, and soino of them had not given much satisfaction to the members of the.; Government :,party. Groat emphasis was laid on the fact that the Prime- Minister should be in his. place to explain, and support tho policy of his Government. "What is'th'o policy of his Govomment? They.wero not able to put a rlicy forward at'the; general election, and venture to say. they.aro not able to put ono forward now. I,know what their policy is exactly; Their policy'fa to retain office. But the people of this country thoroughly understand the position.;' They want misiness methods of coping with' the difficuraes that havo lately arisen, and they will bo satisfied with' nothing else," Speaking of tho Parliamentary Buildings, Mr. • Massej reiterated the point which he- made to, a Dominion representative a few days ' ago, that thousands of pounds Had been spent on temporary alterations which had 'spoiled the Government House for,, its first, purpose, and the original extravagant. scheme for now buildings would still have to bo faced .'■•' ; Tho Civil, Service. ■■•'.■■'■ ' . '

Mr. Maasey also referred to the retrenchment in the Civil Service, and said ho did not know how the Prime. Minister .could look tho electors in tho faco after the admissions he had had to inake. Heaven forbid that this country sliould over reach tho verge of bankruptcy,.as 'had been'hinted, but if it did it would be on account of tho wild, wicked, and wilful extravagance of the party that, had held the reins'of offico for the last fifteen years. • The diminished surplus, tho lamentable inaction of' the Government in regard to Native lands, and the suspension, of the Lawrence-Roxburgh railway, on tho construction of-'which £30,000" was spent, woro other subjects dealt with , by Mr. Massey. V...- ' '•■• •■■■ ■ ... >' '.'■'.■ The Cenorai Election. . . Worst of all,'tho administration of ,the Government had lowered the whole tone of public life throughout the Dominion. Tho date for "the general election had. un.expectr edly been fixed earlier" last year than it had been for. twenty years,' 'putting candidates to much incon,v,onience,- and, ho believed,, actually affecting, the iresult. Before tho next general election, somo-provision should bo made by which Parliament* itself would fix the date of the elections. A return should be presented showing tho , cost ;of the Second Ballot Act, and Parliament should be given an opportunity' to say whether the measure would be retainod on the Statute Book, or something better substituted. As regards tho Timber Commission, two men who know something about the subject would have done better work than the twelve who had been appointed.- In conclusion; Mr. Massey said he regretted having to move his amendment, but' his party could not ondorse tho statement that it,was necessary to prorogue Parliament. Hβ knew what would bo done was foregone conclusion; he knew what .the voting would bo, but if it was not too lato he would ask members to go back on the resolution adopted at the informal conference. "This amendment is not intended aa a want of - confidence motion.' It is' simp'h intended to give members on this side of the House an opportunity to cxpross their opinion on;tho .proposal that the business of Parliament should bft adjourned."/ SPEECHES BY OTHER MEMBERS. Mr. HARDY (Selwyn) seconded tho amendment. Hfe'thought it was a great 'pity that the electors .should choose eighty members to do the , work of Parliament, and that, when one had left, tho other 79 should not bo able to carry on the business of the country. .-..-.. .The Hon. T: MACKENZIE (Taieri)" said that his work in the Ministry would always' be clean, straight, and husiness-like. If tho Government were'attacking problems in a proper.spirit now, it did not .matter what had happened in "the past. He supported the sending of.;.the Prime". Minister to tho Defence Conference, because he regarded tho question of defence as of the greatest importance. •'■• '■. ;'' ' ... ■ . ■ The Clearing Up. < ; ;Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) said that the. conditions prior to 1887 wore similar to those which had obtained during the past 10 or 15 years. There had been the same drift into unnecessary extravagabeq, and he was glad that the party whiclrhad committed such a political crime had to do the clearing up. If they did that work honestly and straightforwardly they would bo supported by him.-The Opposition had foretold what.would happen,- but' they wore not listened to. :■; :::r. • .". ' The Railways. ■ Mr. Allen said he would like to say a few words with regard to railways— - ... .'■ Sir Joseph:' Now wo wilPhear something about economy. .. , : ~ . .'.; "". .: .. Mα'. Allen went oit' to'-lsay.tiiaf'it wn.s'a pity that certain railways—some of which were situated in Otago—could not he-com-pleted at once.. Who recommended them? '. Sir Joseph:'Ynudid.-i*: ...•..,'..

Mr. Allen' said .that .ho had recommended some of them. Thtf Government were tlic only people who were , able to sav whether a railway was justifiable., go went on'to say that ho would like to'know the conditions which tho Prime Minister had said he was' going to impose witi regard to braoch lines; If it were notfor the branch lines how , ; would main lines fare? It was grossly unfair that now that railway construction, works were to be stopped or reduced tlie back-block's sottiers should suffer. '" ' : : ■■. TlieDefeneoConfe'rohbfl, : Ho felt that New Zealand should be represented by tho Prime Minister at t/ho Defence Conference, but ho did not believe that owing to that fact the business of tho country should bo' shelved till lie returned. Tho advico winch tho Prime Minister had received tho'-. last ■ ..conference ho had described- ..as- ~"veriest nonsense." Iho dispatch invited the Dominion's representative, not only to a .Naval-Conference but to a conference;to discuss the.goncrai question of naval and, military defence. Sir Joseph was, in his opinion; not sound on the question of military defence. One- of the main things—ho' would not'say tho chief thing—which to bo discussed at the confdrcnco : was'-tlic pskblishinent of an-Em-pire system'of t'nilitary- training and military dofcnciv Was it'not :i fact that Uritain had not a battleship worth' calling a battleship in the Pacific? was that Japan bad control of ,tho ooean, bmt-hw-loog was

that nation to be our allyP Although New Zealand was told at the laet conferonoo to protect ite own shores, eho had done nothing in that direction. Hβ hoped that, as a result of the conference, tho Prime Minister would be converted to the view , of Ks ox-Defence Minister, that Now Zealand should protect its own shores. There wae' need for a colonial navy manued by colonials, and maintained by the colonies, to protect the trade routes. Mr. WILFORD (Hutt) quoted authorities to show that tho object of tho Germans in building a hugo fleet wae the annihilatian of the British Fleet: Ho proceeded to eay that no other movement, which had taken place lately had a closer effect on New Zealand than the Balkan crisis. What Germany wanted, and what Germany moat have, wia colonies. . At this siage the House adjourned nutfl Resuming his- remarks at 7.30, Mr. Wflforf pointed out that at the very time that the German Emperor was making "» blood is thicker than water" speech, his Reichstag was voting 200 milu'one for armaments spread over some years. A Now Member's Views. Mr. NEWMAN" (Manawsta) «& h* heartily supported tho Dreadnought offer. It must have had a great mowl elect throughout the world. From its geographical position, etc., New Zealand was adtnirabl> adapted for a naval base. Sir Joseph Wart ' n >s opinion, tho right man to represent New Zealand at the Defence Conference^' It could not, howeveiybo contended.Uiat'th» proposal to adjourn Parliament ms in Ite interests of the country. Bβ was not n» fav « ur °f stopping borrowing for too develop. mcnt.of the back country. TJnffl the bao£ blocks wore waded and bridged, the exponfi. ture on the public bnildingsin. fte. should bo curtailed. Two of the chief sames. pt the depression wore as follow:—<T) Bostrictjons on the investment of capital and rating on tho n/imijrowd values. If tho Government wanted to bm K »W a bettor condition of things, it should in futuro.givn tho option of pnrchtwo to' Crown tenants, and so increase the number of exporters. By the adjournmont of Parfiament, a great injury would bo dono to the dtsWcfa! CSpoqlall! ' tlloSo in the eounfay Mr. POOLE (AucUand West) also spoke. SPEECH BY THE PRIME MIHIBTEB. : The PRIME MINISTER said it had been an interesting debate. He , congratulated fte mover , and seconder on- their fine speeches H o] would havo liked to havo kept ititfce real issue, but other matters iiad been ve.ferrod'to. A marked change in tho view of some members on the other side on the question as te whethor New Zealand shouldbe represented at the Conference and whether « V 11,1 ! 1 s representative should bo him-self,-had taken placo recently. It was t singular coincidence that fivo members on the' other sklo who were going to'speak at the pubhe meeting on Tuesday evening had taken part . in.-, tho debate. -Then' again, to tl imf u\ ho ' was responsible te the people should because of of a conforenco calling him away have to give up the duty whicfi devolved on him as bader a new House. Tho Leader of the Opposition had said that no good reason existed for tho prorogation. "Why the Prime Minister of t>io United Kingdom .had said tnat the conference) was to ascertain our respective shares m this great and independent work of Imperial defence." ; . : Mr. Massoy: Wo agree to that. Continuing, the Prime .Minister said that a gentleman who held Opposition views and had formerly been a member of the Honse had written to him stating that although ho disagreed with tho Government on policy matters no was in. agreement with tho proposal thtit New Zealand should offer a Dreadnought, - and' that" ho' (Sir Joseph): should attend tho conference, and that be regretted that thoro'should he any opposition, inasmuch as patriotism should be above party. . ■'".','';• Mr. Massoy: But he says nothing about the postponement of business of' the oountryr ' . . •. ....:■...•■.•.•'■ ■■'.; ■ .... ■

Sir Joseph' reiterated that the House had only to agree not to'proroguo and he would not co. . ■ ■■'.■,' - . Mr. Massey: That, is your'look out. Sir Joseph went on to Bay that he was the head of the first-oversea possession to offer a Dreadnought, and that, as that offer would come up for consideration at tho conference, lie should ho present. . .'. , ■ Arrivals and Departures. There had been a great deal said about people leaving the country.' What wore tho tacts?- During the past ten,years the excess of arrivals' over departures had averaged over 10,000 per year. All tho talk on the question had been made by designing people who were not out of touch with eome mombcrs'of the Opposition. He would give the figures' relating to arrivals and departure* so far this year, which were as follow:— January, arrivals 5800, departures 2200February, arrivals 4100, departures 2857; March, arrivals 3300, departures 4700: April, arrivals 2300, departures 4015: and May, arrivals 2400, departures 3500; If tho fact that the departures had exceeded the arrivals by 1600 for one month should'bo cabled away, so-should tho fact that there had'been a gain in this direction of only 120,000 in ten years! The Australian press got their information on:the subject from a well-known Opposition journal. In this connection, he ■was glad to say that the bulk of tho Opposition papers had stood by the Government during a difficult period. . It was certainly discreditable to the journal which he had in mind that it should have said much damaging things about tho country at such a time. Hβ had received letters from a number of .returned New Zealanders, who wern. disgusted with what had appeared in the Australian papers about New Zealand. It had been said; during the debate, that the Government had done next to nothing in the way of ■ land 'settlement. As a matter of fact, 2629.new ni-ttlers. had been placed on a. total of 916,524 acres.- Then, again, the Government had purchased estates containing 382,426 acres, for £73,155. 'Since ■-he financial year had ended, it had ac.quired three further estates, and intended to. purchase more. ■ ' ' : •

What the, Government Intends to Do. ' i , During tho next session, the Government must legislate so as to ensure a tribunal that-Trill,bo abb to assess tho excess valiio put on by owners of estates, to prevent us taking their estates. ■■,■-.:■ Mr.: Massey: Who miido the present law P bir Joseph'went on to sa.v that tho Government had brought into the country recently far more money than the Leader of tho Opposition knew of. With regard to tho unemployed question, the Government was not going to debase the people by going in ■ for soup kitchens. What was "tho sour kitclirn referred to. in an Opposition paper and in (urn mentioned in tho Australian press.- , , It was a provision of a. generous woman who, had, given succour to the meedy for twenty years' past:. Tlio position with regard-to'the question had bi-cn 'accentuated. . There woro at-prrsont nearly MOO. men on CJovernnient.'worKsi :Thp (lownimcnt did not.wish to,create work just far tho purpose of doing jo. It was intended by the. Government- to do : inoro in that direction than it had already done. . When the , fresh anthonties; for public works were mado, : members need have , no qualms of conscience at tho adjournment. With respect to tho qucetion of tho |X)licy of the Government, he would say that tho line of, demarcation between tho parties would be distinctly' drawn before toe end of tho next session. H G ' noxfc challenged any member to "point to any financial inistako that had been made durinc ' tho Liberal regime. Replying to Mr. Maesoy's statements regarding tho cxpondituro on Parliamentary Buildings, the Prime Jlin. ister stated that tlio combined cost of tho alterations' and , of/-.tho: now museum ' would be less than tho "amount' authorised bv Parliament for tho museum alone. Tlio Prime ' Minister also replied at length to statements of Miv James Allen in connection with tho naval' question. '~','' Mr. FISHEK-analvsed the correspondonco regarding the Naval Conference, and sucgested that it would have inspired some nubHo confidenro if the dispatches' from Now Zealand to .England had been published, M well as those received hero. i ; *^> o'House,0'House, adjourned .at '11.80 p.m. until 10.30 a'.m , . to-day. -

I A. number of interesting. Parliamentary notes,, noticesiof motion.; questions, and other political newe.will bo found on l'age 7 of thk IB6UQ.' ' : ' ■ ■'■'■'■'■' .*. .' .... > vt*« < ' -..-■' •'', ■." " ■■•■-. : • ■-.'■