THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 2, Issue 320, 6 October 1908, Page 9

THE HOUSE.

WOODWARD ST. TRANSACTION. THE REPORT DEBATED. Tho Speaker took the chair in tlio Houso at 2.30 p.m. Tho MINISTER FOB LANDS (the Hon. R. M'Nab) submitted photographic facsimile of the plans of Woodward Street. The plan supplied in tho report 011 tho matter had been, 110 said, a facsimile of a leproduction by - hand. On his attention having been callcd to tho latter, he had had tho photographic reproduction niado. Mr. FISIIER explained 011 looking at tho plan that was circulated he had asked tho Government draughtsman whether be prepared tho plan. Ho had replied that be had not prepared it. He had thought it an extraordinary thing that what waa sup,-

posed to be a facsimile plan should not be one. He (31 r. Fisher) had then found that the original papers were not accessible and had asked for Ministerial permission to see them. (This matter has already been reported.) Ho said that in the first reproduction, half tho plan was facsimile of tho oiiginal but the other half was not, the handwriting of Mr. Macdonnld on tho plan having been copied by an expert draughtsman. /rhat was the reason he had asked for a facsimile' of tho original. He had wanted a copy of the original, not a reproduction of a copy.

Tho PRIME MINISTER said tho plan that went to the committco was a hand copy of the plan made by the Department. That was the course always followed. As tho result of remarks in the House they now had photographic reproductions made of tho original. , The Debate. On tlio motion that the report of tho Land Committee on tho Woodward Street transaction (already published) be agreed to, Mr. Fisher said ho proposed to briefly traverse tho facts of the caso, and to show that tho evidence taken before the committee had justified him in his action. Ho proceeded to road tho letter of Macdonald, Wilson, and Co., of May 2, 1907, to the Under-Secretary for Crown Lands. It had been alleged that when that letter was written by Mr. Macdonald he was under a misapprehension as to the area, but Mr. Kensington had sworn on oath that at the interview on April 29, when Mr. Ilislop 1 and Mr. Macdonald went to see him, tho Mayor, when questioned, had said tho area they were thinking to obtain was somewhat about tho size of tho Crown's area. It was thus pretty clear that the area was a somewhat material point in tho transaction, although afterwards it was contended by the Minister of Lands and the Under-Secretary of tho Department, that that was not so. Now the question aroso as to whether tho application mado to the Crown was founded on the letter of May 2, and the evidence was very conclusive on tho point that the Cabinet was induced to_ act upon an application that was misleading in its facts. He proceeded to quote some of the evidence to support that. It was not very often that Cabinet had the misfortune to treat with bogus applications, but in this case they had had to do so. Under the circumstances, if tho Government was prepared to allow a transaction of this nature to go through and tako its code of morality from tho Parliamentary Committee, then ho was sorry indeed for the Cabinet. Hero was a caso in which a private individual was enabled to procure a piece of Crown land without going to auction or without any facilities whatever being given to the. adjoining owners to purchase that land, and if tho Government was going to tolerate that sort of thing, all he would say was that he was sorry for tho Cabinet. Mr. Macdonald, according to his evidence, had authorised 'himself to write and make an application allegedly on behalf of tho Wellington City Council, and when the Wellington City Council knew nothing about it, and knew nothing about tho land bein£ applied for until two months after the application was granted. Mr. Fisher did not blamo tho Government'' in connection with that application. Attached to tho letter was a plan bearing tho stamp and seal of tho Wellington City Corporation. Right to Sell. The point aroso as to whether, under Section 117 of tho Land Act, tho Department had tho right to sell to tho adjoining owner. Was tho council ever to bo regarded under the Act as an adjoining owner? He did not think so. Then they camo to tho alleged interview between Mr. Kensington and the Mayor and Mr. Macdonald, and which had boon proved most conclusively by Mr. Kensington and_ the officers of tho Crown. That evidence in itself was .enough to discolour tho whole transaction from beginning to end. Ho could not understand why tho Lands Committee should leave the matter there. Not a single member, of the House or of tho committee doubted tlio accuracy of the story' rolated by Mr. Kensington. Ho went over the evidence regarding the allogcd interview, and in tho fade of this evidenco they had that of Messrs. Hislop and Macdonald, who declared fifty times beforo tho committco upon their oaths that they were never in Mr. Kensington's oflico together. If the Houso was prepared .to 'accept that —good luck to tho House. Ho admired their credulity. However, tho committco had had their own objects in view when they had set out oil tho inquiry, and he thought they had fulfilled those objects very satisfactorily. An Important Point. An important point was that tho Minister, m tho course of cross-examination, had said that tho transaction .would never havo been allowed if it had not been for tho purpose of enabling an exehango to be made. 'That was finally and conclusively proved beforo tho committee. On September 5 tho Town Clerk had written to tho Under-Sccretary for Crown Lands applying for v tho purchase of tho lands. He (Mr. Fisher) "would point out that it was known to Mr. Hislop and Air. Macdonald that, on tho first week in July of last year, the necessity for an exehango such as had been originally contemplated was wiped out altogether. They had both stated in their evidenco that on tlio first week in July they had realised that. Then tho months of July and August elapsed, and on September s—two months after tho discovery that no exchange was necessary—the letter from tho Town Clerk was written, under instructions from tlio Mayor, applying for a piece of land from the Crown. It was known to both of them and to the officers ,of tlio council that at that time the whole of the Woodward Street improvement could havo been carried out without any reference to the Crown land whatever. That was admitted by Mr. Macdonald, because, in answer to Mr. Lang, he said that, when ho realised at the beginning of July that there was no necessity to carry out this oxchango, ho also realised that there was no necessity whatever to purchase tho. Government land". Mr. Fisher proceeded to state that it had never occurred to tho Mayor to tell the Government, in the first place, that Mr. Macdonald was the owner of tho adjoining section, and in the second place that they had realised thero was no necessity for tho exchange at all. Ho submitted that tho evidenco showed collusion from beginning to end. It was easily shown by the dates that .tho City Council know nothing about the case.- "It seems singular," said Mr. Fisher, "that the Cabinet of the Dominion of New Zealand can grant a piece of land to tho Wellington City Council on May 29, and the council knows nothing about it, and is oblivious of tho fact until August 27 in the same year." His object in raising the question before the House was twofold. Mrs. M. A. Williams, the- adjoining owner, had paid taxes oil tho land for 19 years. It was more valuable to her than to Mr. Macdonald, and when she anticipated having an opportunity of going to public auction to competo for its purchase, sho discovered ouo day tha.t the Hon. T. K. Macdonald, a prominent member of tho Liberal and Labour Federation, "walked along and knocked down her motor shed upon tho land," saying ho had bought it from the Crown. He (Mr. Fisher) had brought the matter up out of justice to, Mrs. Williams, and also oil account of the treatment meted out to tho City, Council Wishy-washy Report. Mr. Fisher continued that it was amazing after all the evidence, that i the committee should come down with such a wishy-washy report. No tribunal would have left tlio Crown officers with their sense of honour suspended- between heaven aud earth. As far as tho Mayor was concerned, he should have at once, as soon ,as lie discovered the application that had been made, on behalf of the city, acquainted the Government or tho City Council with tlio fact. Instead, ho had allowed tho transaction to develop. His Duty. Mr. Fisher continued that ho had done bis duty so far as tho Wellington City Council and Mrs. AVilliams woro concerned, and would continue to do it. Jf the general public thought ho was going to remain as a City Councillor or as a member of Parliament and see these transactions continue without saying anything, the best tiling they could do was to leavo him out of jjublic lifo altogether,

Mr. Fisher, finding his time-limit was lip, complained bitterly that he was thus unable tn deal fnll.v with other aspects of the. case. Jio would like to havo dealt .with the evidence. It was rewritten by the yard. No Parliamentary Committee had ever allowed, evidence to go through like the evidence that was there, covered with red ink from beginning to end. lie would deal fully with all these matters somewhere else, where the general public would understand the question, and where thero would bo no time-limit. □cfenos of ths Land Committee. The Hon. C. H. MILLS thought some of the innuendoes made regarding the Land Committee called for a reply. The Inst speaker had taken out portions of the evidence to boar out his side of tho case. Mi\ Mills emphatically denied that he, as a member of the committee, had gone to the meetings with a biased mind. The lion, gentleman had been on tho City Council, and had agreed to tho land transaction. Ho had also ignored tho fact that tho land had been equitably valued, and though Mrs. Williams would have liked to secure the section, it must not bo forgotten that she only desired to get a portion upon which a building stood. If Mr. Macdonald had got the land at n cheaper value than anyone else could, it would havo been another matter. Tlia Leader of the Opposition. Mr. MASSEY (Leader of tho Opposition) found fault with tho first paragraph of the Land Committee's report, which justified the selling of tho laud to tho City Council. Was the land sold to the City Council? Not a momber of tho House could say "Yes." The Lands Committee had put tho position incorrectly. It mattered nothing to him as to whom the land was transferred to. His concern was tho action of the Government in the matter, and their position was undoubtedly extraordinary. There was also tho matter of the area of the land that was sold. Ho had been informed on good authority that the Survey Department did not usually write the word " perches" in the plural on its plans. They simply wrote " per." In this particular plan (referred to by Mr. Fisher) the word was written in tho plural. This matter should be cleared up. The Minister should satisfy himself whether the letters " ches " had been, afterwards added to tho " por.," and whether the plan had been tampered with. As to the transfer of tho land, Cabinet had sanctioned it under Section 117 of tho Land Act, 1892, and ho was sure that the section of tho Act had not been meant to apply to such a case as this. Tlie Minister Speaks. Tho Hon. R. M'NAB (Minister, for Lands) said the land had been sold by the Government to the City Council. It must be remembered what the aim of the whole transaction had been. The council had applied to the Government to buy 6.55 perches to enable them to transfer tho land to get a portion for street improvement purposes. They had then asked that the transfer be made direct, and that contingent matters would be regulated accordingly. The Minister had thought thoy were in reality selling to tho City Council, and putting the name of tho owner of the other section to j;he section. This ho explained to show a regular precedent bad_ been followed in the transfer of tho. section. As to the area of the section, in regard to tho decimal 4 or 4 perches on the original plan, it would appear that the letters "ches" were crowded on to "per." He had never heard a suggestion that that was done, at all events after it was in tho receipt of the Lands Department. Ho understood that the plan had gone from the City Surveyor to the party concerned, who had forwarded it to tho Government. Ho could see no reason for tho suggestion, as conveyed in Mr. Massey's remarks, that an officer of the Department had mado the alteration; thero could be nothing to gain in this. The Land Law. As to tho application of Scction 117 of the 1892 Act, it had been interpreted by previous Ministers as covering .such eases. The City Solicitor had advised.in this direction, which showed that tho legal profession interpreted the' scction in this way. Ho went on to defend tho Lands Department from any strictures Mr. Fisher had made, especially in regard to the size,of tho section to bo received from Mr. Macdonald. The fact that tho land was decimal four or four porches was not really material to tho ease, since the important , part of the transaction was the exchange and tho payment according to valuation, and not tlie area. • Ibis had appeared to him as soon as.ho had-looked into the matter. The Lands Department had not boon aware until obtaining evidence that the money had not been paid by the City Council. Had it been disclosed to the Crown that tlie payment had not come from tho city treasury, thoy would not have issued the title, and for the reason that it had beeji a practice of successivo Ministers though in certain cases —whore three or four adjoining owners wanted tho land—it was put up to auction. In such cases as where the land was wanted for public purposes it was allowed to go under Scction 117. Mr. Macdonald had taken up tho position that he had given the land to the city. Granted ho had given it, the whole transaction formerly entered into with tho Government would have been upset. According to Mr. Macdonald, ho had given tho land free. Tho Department, right to the last, had expected that an exchango was t being given cffoct to. Conflicting Evidence. | Regarding the interview in Mr. Kensington's room, about which there had been conflicting evidence, none of the members of the committee had any doubt as to what had taken place. (Hear, hear.) If it, had been tho evidence of Mr. Kensington alone, it would have been sufficient, for all connected with departmental affairs knew him to be possessed of a wonderful memory—a marvellous recollection of dejp'artmontal detail, unequalled by any Civil Servant of tho Department. (Hear, hoar.) He said this in justice to tho officers, in case they might be led to think that tho report of the committee cast any doubt upon their evidence. The committee wore perfectly satisfied as to the transactions that took placo that day. (Hear, hear.) In Justice to the Mayor. Mr. FIELD (Otaki) desired to read two letters from Mr. Hislop to tho Lands Committee. Mr. Hislop had contended that being one of tho parties concerned he should ho ontitled not only to give his evidence and to cross-examine w-itnesses, but also to ipako n statement at tho end of tho inquiry. That statement had been refused him, and therefore ho had written tho tw r o letters which had been returned. These letters Mr. Field proceeded to read. Sir. REMINGTON (Rangitikei) defended the committee in its report, since the order of reference had limited it to tho consideration of tho matter from tho Government's point of vie v. Tho whole of the evidence went to show that the Government had been actuated with the best of motives in granting the section. Mr. Remington went oil to deal with otlioi aspects of tho case. Mr. W. FRASEIJj a member of tho Lands Committee, said the committco had had strictures passed upon it for not having oxpressed opinions upon things outside its order of reference. As to the conflict of evidence between Mr. Hislop and Mr. Kensington, the committee refused to receive a letter from the former after tho evidence had been taken. Tho committee did not wish to reopen tho incident. Tho comiritteo having decided that tho Government had acted bona fide did not feel called upon to express opinions as to tho matters that affected only tho Mayor, Mr. Macdonald, and the city. That question could bo re-opened by tho City Council, if it thought fit. Mr. IZARD (Wellington North) said tho committco had gone outsido its order of reference when it did more than consider tho action of tho Lands Department. The Houso was not the placo for discussion on tho actions of other individuals concerned. Nobody Hurt. The Hon. T. Y. DUNCAN summed up tho history of tho matter. Ho thought one would havo cxpected the work at Woodward Street to be done without taking so much from the terrace road, and doubtless this was why Mr. Macdonald thought four perches were wanted. When he found it was not so, ho was prepared to let the council have the small piece of land free. Mr. Duncan thought Mr. Fisher should have

had the matter thrashed out in tho City Council, and not have biought'-i.t' f 'tb" "tho-H.bus'6? The Government was porfebtly :- ':i\istified what it did, and Mr. Kensington,- whom-he" knew as well as anyone iri ; *tTie n 'HouseT'was' one of the best servants'Vtho" Gb'vernfneiVt had. The street was widened,.aiid 1 -nobody; was hurt. ' •>' '•■->-*-'• Tho report'of the committee was' 'agreed' to on the voices. •"''r-'"''-'" ' New Vloe-Regal Reoldence. Tho question of a sito for a,new Governor's residence must - bo gone bn 'w'itli," and the erection must be proceeded .Svitli"as';'s'obn.'aß' possible. ' Mr. Wilford: At the LowbrHutt'?.;'" •- Sir Joseph Ward: The LoweV'-Hutti■ is-'tbo far away. It must be witliin'^'Sasy ? r6 , aeli"of the Parliamentary Building'sT r; "-rJlr. Massey: This is the" best-'site " where 1 we are now. . —- : - ; - i ' The Prime Minister said' the present site was unsuitable. Goveriinic'ii't' : I-]otise '"'sbbuld not bo 011 a main street of'•sjjfch' 4 'a v cjty''^ 1 Wellington. Ho went 01.1' tp -: "say* that 1 seven per cent, on the value of -tlie- Government Buildings site would bo £lS,4So,'nnd'thi£was a moderate computation. Even' if tllby had to raise _ £300,000 at four' 1 per "cp.iit: : ' 'there would still bo a good margin/'- ' " " " The Leader of tho Opposition.' " ■■■;'' '■ Mr. MASSEY- said, thd-ebnimittee' had', gone outside its order of., rbfercuce,'!.wliicb'.' related solely to'a sito .for':Palliamentary' Buildings. condemned the of making additions to the. old wooden. Departmental Buildings. There . should "have been an 1 official inquiry and, Irepb'rt oil _'t]ie cause of the Paidiamentayv,,S,re'.,.. condemned the Governmeht,forgot pushing 011 grain's contract and holding'the present" session in the-old building'"thus'.added to.. Ho was strongly opposed to'-', any. scheme . forremoving the seat of Governmentrfionv.Wpl-. lington. The proi>osals of "tlie comniitte'e would cost, before the completed, half a million of money. ItSVas the wildest, maddest, most extravagant" r scheme r 'Tie' : 'Md any experience of. If it' r w'ab' ipoSible ' to : . close Sydnby Street, the old ( site was too narrow for, Parliamentary Buildings must fall to the; aiid ; if" it was too narrow for Parliamentary; Build-" ings, it must be too narroW'fbr'Departmeiitii'l Buildings. The best parts;of 'the^old ing wore apparently uninjured; by tlie : ;'firo. : Tlio building now used by''Parliament was also good, bccauso well-seasoned .timber was 1 used in building it. He/\igreed:'that''\ve' should look forward for half, a-'century, if not a century. The present Parliament should decide what course was to'be followed'.'...Ho' approved of the proposal to" call fbr'competitive designs, but tects should bo invited to'i'competc. ; Committee's Scheme Supported." - - Mr; -HORXSBY (Wairarapa) ideprecatcd' the idea that the scheme was a.-wild,-harum-scarum, extravagant one.. *".Ho- tlioughi.'thG'. Governor's residence.might,very,;yrell..be outside the city. Mr. T. MACKENZIE ported the scheme as sul)mitted. by..the committee. He also' oulogised,..tho temporary' provision made for Parliament:,,. Members were enjoying better hcaltlv-tlian-they u did in the old building. Ho thought-the competition in designs should bo open to, architects of all countries. He thoj.iglit'vGay,erjini<mt House might very well be iiv tiie'Hiitt galley —say, at M'Nab's Gardens, -.or-..MiiEon's Gardens. Mr. G. LATJRENSON, in.'.cr.iticisingith.p remarks of Mr. Massey, introduced the subject of the Opposition dinner Qn-rSaturday-night, and took Mr. Massey to task-. ; for- his" ','joromiads." Such talk was calculated to.' do - tlio country harm, and mako tliof. ; timi.d take fright. Ho proceeded .•,to-;re'f.er.-:;.t'o- the remarks of Mr. Duthie at-.that dinner. Mr. Massey roso to point-out the lion, gentleman was astray froia&the:. subject at is3ue. -, A ;;{.. Jlr. Laurenson said he- was quoting- from tho newspaper. . Mr. Izard (waving aloft. ,1 "Dominion) : "Here it is; your own paper!!' -;.r . Mr. Laurenson subniittDitclengtliy-fvicws on' the inadvisability of rebuilding", mcnt and Government Buildings in Wellington, and argued ou for a capital city. ' f .'.V-I: • It Would bo Bettor. Mr. IZARD (Wellington -North) 'thought it would be better if the member forj.Lyttel--ton confined' his attention"-'-toi:>the-.jir6bablo" canal to conncct Christchirrdi tt-itli th' 6; sea. Mr. Izard favoured the old*-' site''for ment Buildings. Ho enlarged""upon ■ cessity. for making provision" for-th'o" departmental offices since the records-' were' uiisa'fe in tho present "firo stack:"'Mr. A. AV. HOGG (Mbstbrton) 'was glad tho Prime Minister had de'cided : "to proceed' slowly in tho matter He described the report as reckless./ 1 ;->i ■ Tho,. .debate was continuedat-lbngth}*»"* Jlr. F. W. LANG '(jtanidtan)i'-oii-'--tho ground that extravagance Shtiuld' be : av'bided,' moveil as an amendment that tho l reference in the report to the advisability "of'-placing l Parliament Buildings on.'"-'the"."Government' House site he altered to Jlblesivbfthi.St'reet;.'. At 12.30 a.m. the House'came to'a/division on Mr. Lang's amendment■udiich :: was'lost by 33 to 19. - 'The Premier then replied,'arid'the report was adopted ou the voices. 1 -'; - THE ARBITRATION BILL. : The Arbitration Bill was repofted from the Council with amendments,"which - will, be considered to-day. RAILWAY AUTHORISATION. A Railway Authorisation Bill .was., introduced by Governor's message," providing' for extension of tho railway in the Tadmor Vallqy (Nelson). The House rose at 1.40'-a;m; ; .. ■