PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 2, Issue 316, 1 October 1908, Page 9

PARLIAMENT

THE NAVAL SUBSIDY. ADVANCES TO SETTLERS AND WORKERS. SECOND BALLOT BILL. 'ARBITRATION BILL IN THE COUNCIL. Tho Upper House was chiefly occupied yesterday afternoon and evening with the debate on the Arbitration Bill, which received its second reading. The "Wellington Harbour Board Empowering Bill and the Justices of tho Peaco Amendment Bill reached their final stages,'/and a..report fro.m tho Stock Committee, recommending that tho Heavy Trafficßill; should bo dropped, was received without protest! Tho'first item on the . Order Taper in tho House, was "Questions and Answers, - but at 5.30 p.m., tho adjournment hour,-the House was still discussing Committee re- . ports on petitions, oil which, as a matter of fact, it had been, engaged tho greater portion of the. afternoon.' One of these petitions, and tho one " eliciting chief discussion, ■ was from Mr. Samuel Vaile praying for an unconditional trial of his system of railway. management. Tho petitioner found Opposition . supporters, and tho "Hon. W. Hall-Jones (Minister for Railways) and the Prime Minister replied;at length. In the evening the,' Naval Subsidy Bill, raising the DominionV annual contribution to £100,000, came,,'.lip' for second reading. . An interesting debate, which involved also the subject of• our. internal defence and the volunteer system, ensued. The Bill was road a second Then the second reading of the Advances' to Settlers Bill occupied the House for two hours. The Chinese Immigration. Restriction Bill was read a second timo.-- Subsequently these Bills wore put through Coip'mittee. The Council having insisted on ii^s'amendments to the Second Ballot Bill,'/the; House appointed managers \) meet .managers appointed by the Upper louso. _ "'-''"J / \ ' V THE COUNCIL. i ■ t H,E.AVY TRAFFIC BILL Tho ■. Legislative Council mot at 2.30 p.m. /esterda-E.,.-. _ TheiiAgricultural and Stock Committee re- . sommpnded'that, owing'to tho lato period of the-session, the Heavy Tra.ffic Bill bo not procsededjT.'ith, but that copies be_ sent to the local bodies for their consideration. WO- BILL PASSED. The Wellington Harbour Board Empowering Bill was read a third time and passed. \ V';"' A NEW BILL. \ TherEdiication Reserves Leases Validation end Empowering Bill (Hon. Dr. Findlaj) was,! read a first time. ; y SECOND BALLOT BILL. The' Council resolved, on the motion of the Attorney-General (Hon. Dr. Findlay), to insist ori'its amendments to the Second Ballot Bill.' The Attorney-General and the Hons. S.. T. George and J. R.. Sinclair wore appointed to draw up reasons. 1 The reasons afterwards submitted and adopted were as follow:—"Because to permit -of a• majority.of 500 being treated as an absolute ■ majority is inconsistent with the purpose of tho Bill, and is otherwise inexpedient; and because the amendment in Clause ID is necessary." JUSTICES OF THE PEACE AMENDi ;, ;\.MENT,, BILL..'. • The Justices of the Peace Act Amendment Bill (Hon. O. -Samuel) was committed, and the amendments made by tho Statute Revision Committee were adopted." Tho Bill was then read a third time and passed. . ARBITRATION BILL. ' : THE DEBATE CONTINUED. The debate on the second reading of the Industrial Conciliation'and. Arbitration Bill tvas continued. The Hon. J. RIGG (Wellington) said the Bill,'as just introduced, was a one-sided, tyrannical, and vindictive measure, and if it had been intended as a declaration of war against tho workers it could not liavo been better conceived for the purpose. It would have severely punished strikes, but would have left employers free to lock-out their men with impunity. It gagged, the workers and'the press, and proposed to punish strikes by imprisonment.! The Bill in its present form was much better .and was also a substantial'improvement on the existing law. The workers' generally would approve of it. It was o. return to 6arier methods of dealing with industrial disputes. Tho Right to strike. .It:did not seem unreasonable to offer to the Workers the chbice'between arbitration and'. strikes and to refuse to allow them both.' He could not approve of the actions of those who would have a union got all it could from tho Court and then strike for more. He was, howover, glnd that the right to strike, for which he had always contended, was conceded in this measure as an alternative to arbitration. . The right to strike existed in every country except Now South Wales, where our repressive legislation of 1905, had been copied and made more severe. The right to strike, of course, implied the right to lock-out. ■ While not advocating strikes, ho believed they wero not an unmixed evil. The right' to strike greatly strengthened the,workers in negotiations though no strike might take place, and even when a strike appeared to have failed concessions were often ma<lo afterwards. Mr. Paul: T)n you advocate tho power to strike in this Mr. Bigg: That's what commends the Bill to me: ,If given the option. That is why I am going to support it as strongly as I intend to do. Successful Strikes.

Continuing, Mr. Rigg quoted, figures to show- that strikes wero not altogether unsuccessful. The Blackball strikors had gained their point. Tiio slaughtermen obtained by striking an increase of wages" which, in;tho opinion of many, they could' not have ' got from the Court. Tho Auckland tramway men succeeded so well - in bne_ strike (hat • they struck again, and .the findings of the "special Board of Conciliation -'showed that ■they had good reason for satisfaction. The Donniston miners. wero on point of a strike when tho Prime Minister intervened, and, in the settlement that-was made gave them what they had justifiably intended io get by striking. He. did not wish to ,adviso the workers to strik'o just because they had tho option. A strilco 011 a rising market generally succeeded, butjf tho market .were falling the strike, would, probably fail.. It appeared that inspectors gf-awards would Jiave to sue, under the/:Bill, for the maximum penalty, but this'ought not to-be so. Cases should bo tried under the Justjcesof the Peace Act, and there , should be 110,' imprisonment for non-payment.' Even a .conviction would be a deterrent'. ' liis own> i(!ea, which lis still thought was practicable, was that the union should givo a guarantee on tho making of the award. Tho case of small unions unablo to put up. the iiiakimum' penalty could bo met by tlie Court having power to fix tho amount of the security required in each case. Th/ 1 - unions could" guarantee each other. Tho way in which the fine imposed 0:1 the Wellington Bakers'-'Union after the recent strike was paid showed that this could "bp done. Mr. G. Jones':'-That's the plan—tho only one! ,' ■ Proceeding, Mr. Rigg said the provision for cancelling the registration of a union responsible for a "strike would, givo unions that wished to got freo of the Act an cosy way of doii.g-so, While it would inflict unjust punishment on orriployers.

Referring to some remarks Wiv tho Hon. J. It. Sinclair, Mr. Rigg said that, though tho "ca' canny" policy might bo carried on in England, it did not exist in New Zealand. Thoro was a hustling spirit here. Hp had watched it in 'the caso of tho Wellington Corporation labourers at Kolburno Park. It was tho regular thing that if a labourer did not satisfy a contractor who gave him a trial, he only stayed a couplo of hours. Ho knew from his own experienco as a compositor, that a man who could do as-much | as six others did his utmost in order to keep his place. Mr. Sinclair: And does ho get moro than tho others? Mr. Rigg: Ho gets what lio's entitled to. Mr. Sinclair: He's unfairly treated, that's my point. Mr. . Rigg went on to say that tho "exertion" wage was an idea of feather: bed philosophers, who reclined in comfort while devising means for causing other men to work hardor. Ho spoke as ono who had on different occasions refused and accepted an exertion wage. Councils nnd Court. In regard to the.Conciliation Councils, ho suggested that if a council agreed on a recommendation,' it should bo given the forco of an award, and that if it could not agree on all points, it could make- a recommendation covering those on which it agreed, and refer the others to the Arbitration Court. The workers had lost confidence in the administration of tho Court, .and until something was dono to restore that confidence, there would be a continuancc of such troubles as had occurred of late. Ho considered that' the Arbitration Court, in refusing to make an award in tho Canterbury Farm Labourers' dispute, had been unfair to the workers had . done itself _ an injury, and had exceeded its jurisdiction. He recognisod, however, that the President of tho Court was endeavouring to carry out his duties to the best of his abilities in the interests of the whole Dominion. Mr. Rigg regretted that the Bill seemed to justify tho action of tho Court in refusing to make an award. Ho objected to tho Court usurping the functions of Parliament as, he held, had been done in its memorandum, reserving to itself the power to vary an award in consequence of the enactment of a statute alfecting the conditions of the industry concerned. Another instance of legislation by the Courtwas tho clause providing for suspension of awards as a deterrent to striking. Ho hoped the Bill would become law, but would try to effect some'amendments, chiefly a view of restricting the powers of tho Court. He would-seek to abolish the life-appointment of the President, and to make it unnecessary for him to be a lawyer. Against tho Agitator. The Hon. S. T. GEORGE (Auckland) said that when tho Bill came back from the Labour Bills Committee of the Council it might be so much altered as to give occasion for another debate. He did not think the measure would have a very great effect. Thero would always be strikes. He had been shocked by Mr. Rigg's speech, which was all "strike, strike, strike!' The Conciliation Councils would not bo of much use because there would rarely be unanimity. He believed in an energy- wage, and tho contract system in force at the Waihi mine proved the validity of tho principle. He was connected with one of the largest labour employing concerns- in the Dominion, but he realised that nothing but justice to both parties would bring about industrial peace. He would, at tho proper time, move an amendment to provido that officers of indus-i trial unions must be engaged in the industries concerned. He was credibly informed that thero were men in Auckland ■ who _ as secretaries for several unions were making as much as £500 a-year. They were appointed to one after anotkpr the strength of their success in the' Arbitration Court. Thoy were Labour advocates whose object was to stir up strife. The; Bill; if passed, as it would be, would lead , in the. direction of industrial peace. , Tho Council, at 5 p.m., adjourned until 7.30 p.m. Another Labour Member. The Hon. J. BARR (Canterbury), continuing the debate' at' the '•evening".'sitting,-eulo : . gised the work of the Hon. J. A. Millar, whom lie hailed as a fellow unionist, Tho great body of unionists appreciated tho arbitration system, whatever some Labour leaders,'' seif-appointed' or otherwise," might say of it. In declaring himself against strikes, Mr. Barr said that the success or otherwise could not be justly estimated without taking account of the lost pay and the sufferings of the wives and children must not bo overlooked. He had never seen a strike that did not have a demoralising effect, and ho had seen many. .None of them wore beneficial to the workers, or to tho country,, or to anybody. Referring in this connection to ithe evidence given by Mr. G. T. Booth, of Christchurch, before tho Labour Bills Committee of the House, Mr. Barr said that that gentleman, notwithstanding that ho had travelled in America and elsewhere, was so imbued with tho commercial spirit that his vision of bighor things Was seriously-dimmed. Ho deeply regretted that' alongside Mr. G. T. Booth was his honour,ablo friend Mr, Rigg, who rejoiced that the Bill left a loophole for the right to strike. Strikes should be prohibited by statute, on account of the sufferings they brought upon those who were not responsible for them, and the injury they did to industry. The ond of tho strike was often the beginning of the misery. Thousands of men had been driven'away from the paths of honesty, and into pauperisation by means of strikes. It was impossible to say too much against strikes, and everything possible should be done to prevent them m this country. Various Suggestions. Dealing with some of the most important clauses of the Bill, Mr. Barr said he thought some good would como from tho councils, but this would largely depend upon the commissioners. Ho objected to; tho appointment of an assessor from outside the particular industry alfected. Tho clauseoxcluding workers not omployed for pecuniary gain from tho Act should bo amended. The raising of the minimum number of workors who could form a union from seven to fifteen would prove a real hardship. Mr. Rigg's suggestion for securing obcdienco to awards by causing the unions to give a guaranteo was worthy of consideration. Mr.- Barr wont on to reiterate his opposition to the exertion wage proposal. To retain his place was sufficient incentive to tho unionist. The employers of New Zealand were . better than thoso he had had to do with elsewhere, and generally had somo fellow-feeling for their men. Tlie fleet) For Capital. V The Hon. W. AY. M'CARDLE said the Government and the Hon. Mr. Millar had done all that was possible to benefit tho workers, and ho was sorry to find that somo of them wero turning against him. Ono thing that would help greatly towards tho solution of the labour problem was tho advances to settlers' system, which was providing capital to employ the people. •The lion. C. M. LUKE (Wellington) referred to the exertion wago principle as in operation in tho tribute system of mining, which enabled some men to earn a very comfortable income. Ho had been employed on piece-work when a young man, and had received some advantages from it without being injured in any way, but he knew that tho System had been abused by unworthy employers who raised tho standard in order to exact moro work for the same wages. Profit-sharing was' akin to tho system outlined by tho Attorney-General, ajid had worked well, to his personal knowledge, in the great preserving business of Sir William Hartley, who had liever raised the standard or reduced the rate of pay. New Zealand employers differed a good deal in their views' as to whether tho exertion wago could be applied to their industries. His own brothor I did not agree with him in this matter. Exertion Wago Advocated. Proceeding, the Hon. Mr. Luke advocated the exertion wage as a moans of counteracting the present tendency to reduce tho level of efficioncy in work. It was in harmony with nature that inch should use the faculties with which they were endowed, and should reap the benefit. Ho could tell of cases of men making for years high wages on a system of payment by results and without any deterioration to their health. Proceeding, Mr. Luke enlarged upon the horrors of great strikes, but incidentally defended Mr. G. T. Booth from the strictures of Mr. Barr, and characterised tho formor

as a man of broad humanitarian sentiments. Mr. Luke also expressed himself strongly in, favour of tho proposed conciliation councils. Modißcd Approval. The Hon. J. ANSTEY (Canterbury) saidl he approved of tho striko clauses of tho Bill, mid welcomed its proposals on the linos of truo conciliation. Ho also sympathised with tho object of tho clauses for deterring tho inciters of strikes.. Fie approved of power being given to tho Court to refuse to niako an award. The Hon. J. E. JENKINSON (Wellington) approved of tho exertion wage—which ho preferred to describe as tho premium wago— under proper conditions. Hon. Dr. Flndlay's Reply, Tho ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon Dr. Findlay), roplying on the debate said tho net profits of industry in New Zealand in 1907-8 were 3 millions odd, which, divided among tho workers ongaged, would give each of them 7s. 6d. a week extra. Out of 290,272 earners of wages and salaries, of all classes from tho judges downwards, 2488 received over £300 a year. Seven-sixteenths of all tho public and private companies in New Zealand mado no profits at all. Sixty-three_ per cent, of those that wero paying (or 519) paid less than £1000 a year, without making allowance for interest on capital sunk therein. Out of that number 174 mado under £100 a year. This should open the eyes of .those who seemed to think there ( was. some enormous storehouse of wealth hidden away and should be mado availablo for tho workers in tho form of wages. There wero only 4900 firms and private persons in business in New Zealand making more than £300 a year, and 1204 of them wero making less than £400, whilo 4018 were making less than £1000. These figures wero surprising, and if they deducted the interest on the money invested, they would still bo still more so. Fourfifths of our manufacturers and traders, excepting the farmers, made less than £1000 a year. Out of the 2488 people who were getting wages or salaries exceeding £300 a year, 1200 received between £300 and £400 a year, 682 between £400 and £500, and only 150 got more than £700 a year. Only 116 persons in the whole Dominion, including tho judges, received salaries of more than £1000 a year, and only 178 professional men out of a total of 1069 "mado moro than £300 a year. Arbitration Court Defended. Tho Arbitration Court could not devise means of suddenly lowering rent and reducing interest. It could only deal with the con- 1 ditions presented to it. If it yielded to a demand to increase tho wages paid by a firm by Is. a day, tho whole of the profits might bo swallowed up. .He wanted to protest against tho folly of those who ignored, this aspect. If they did justly by tho president of the Court thoy would give him moro commendation than blame. The '' feather-bed philpsopher " had his place, and it was a very poor place, but a poorer one was deserved by the man who spread ideas that would diminish the industry and tho efficiency of the workers. (Anplause.) The Bill was read a second time and referred to the Labour Bills.Committee. The Council rose at 11.55 p.m. THE HOUSE. ADVANCES TO SETTLERS. Tho House met at 2.30 p.m. Sir WILLIAM STEWARD drew tho attention of the Prime Minister to the affairs of the Advances to Settlers Office. He read a letter which he had received from a Waimate firm on the matter.. The writers stated that in spite of continual applications for loans granted no money could bo obtained. In one instance an applicant had been authorised a loan of £1000. On tho strength of that'he bad advised his mortgagee that ho would repay his loan in a certain time, but had not got the money. Tho result was that the. money had been demanded, and if the applicant could not got his authorised sum ho 'would have a perfcct right to proceed against the Department. Sir William Steward proceeded that he was aware that several inombcrs had received numerous complaints of this kind. (Hear, hear.) It was desirable that somo arrangement bo come to, at any l'ato in respect to tho loans granted. f Mr. W. T. JENNINGS (Egmont) roso to make some remarks, but members from all parts of tho House assured him . they "were all in tho same box." Mr. GRAHAM (Nelson) said ho desired to omphasiso what Sir . William Steward had stated. Mr. Grocnslade: We can all say the samel Mr. Graham added that ho had received a letter' in respect of two loans, ono of which had been authorised on May 14 last. Repeated applications had been made to tho Office, and the answor had been that tho money would bo forwarded at tho earliest possible moment. In tho second case the circumstanccs wero similar. Tho settlors were being put to great inconvenience. Tho PRIME MINISTER said ho had already explained that only a certain amount of monoy could be advanced to the Advances to Settlors Office ito bo issued, and that the applications must bo met in tho sequence in which they wero received. Since Sir William Steward had seen him that morning about the lettor, lie had ascertained that the demands were so enormous that it was only possiblo for the Department to do its best:to meet these demands. Everything possiblo was being done to satisfy all. Unfortunately hon.. members who raised theso ories know nothing of the circumstances. There wore thousands of people in the country who had been stopped their loans from other sources, and had consequently pressed upon the Advances to Settlors Offico as tho result. 1 An enormous amount had been done to help them—(hear, hear)—and; in addition, others had been told that they could get assistance outside on their promises to carry them on. Tho Department had been londing at a rate considerably in advance of their possibilities for the first five months of this year, and,members who wero trying to push matters from the floor of tho Houso wero doing what was not fair. If they wero going to try to advance tho matter in tho House in this hva.y ho would be justified in issuing instructions that the Department was not to do anything that was not in accordance with its actual obligations. But' this would be disastrous to many. He repeated that tho Department was doing its best. Ho sympathised with many cases, but if this pressure was going to bo brought to boar on' tho floor of the House it would bo bad for the Department in the future. Mr. FISHER said' tho trouble was that certain applicants had obtained authorisation for grants, and on tho strength of that had made obligations which they could not fulfil because the money w ; as not there. The rest of the afternoon was spent in dobating petitions and reports of Select Committees. SECOND BALLOT BILL. APPOINTMENT OF MANACERS. In the evening a message was received from tho Legislative Council that the reasons for disagreement with tho amendments in that Chamber to tho Second Ballot Bill were hot acceptable. The Council's reasons for insisting on tho amendments aro given in the report of the Upper Houso proceedings. Sir JOSEPH WARD moved that a conference bo asked for, and that the representatives of the House bo Sir William Steward, Mr. J. T. M. Hornsby, and himself (tho Prime' Minister). Mr'. Massey: Oh! oh! Of course, wo all quite understand it is neccssary to have a conference, but I will call attention to tho one-sided Sir Joseph Ward: I know what I am about! Mr. Massey: I know, too, and it is doing something that is grossly unfair. "Oh! oh!") Tho Primo Minister: I am not going to let you get to windward of me in a matter like this. Mr. Massey went on to say that threo members of the Government side of the Houso were proposed to represent tho House. Ho had on many occasions taken part in appointing managers when thore was a difference of opinion in regard to matters between tho two Houses. But never had lie seen managers appointed without tho Opposition being represented. Tho Premier: Quite surep

Mr. Mnsscy: Quito sure! What tho hon. gentleman proposes is improper and unconstitutional. Ho knew the House would agree to anything tho Prime Minister proposed, hut ho would do his duly and record his vote against what was going on. The Position Defined. Tho PRIME MINISTER desired to point out tho position. Every member of the House, knew that the Opposition as a body had moved heaven and earth to kill tho Bill. It required only ono of the managers from tho House to disagree at tho conference, 'and that would annul tho conference. "I am not going to be placed in a position of that kind in a matter of this sort." Since the Opposition had shown such enmity to tho Bill, it would bo a gross injustice if he allowed any sentimental consideration to prompt him to ask that ono of tho Opposition be a manager. For that reason he had proposed the members who had supported the Bill should go with him to tho other Houso in the hope that they would arrive at a conclusion satisfactory to the House. It would also place tho Opposition in a wrong position to appoint ono of them. The Motion Carried. The motion to appoint tho managers mentioned was carried by 44 to 12. NAVAL SUBSIDY. In moving the second reading of tho Naval Subsidy Bill, The PRIME MINISTER briefly travorsed statements on this matter which ho has already mado. The increase in the subsidy to £100,000 per annum was paid in substitution for the previous £40,000, and was giveu unconditionally. In the years to_ como tho Dominion, no doubt, would seo its way to contribute a great deal more than they wero proposing to do in the Bill. ... Mr. MASSEY (Leader of the Opposition) fully concurred with the increase. He went on to point out how much wo were dependent upon the Mother Country, and the necessity for understanding between the Empire's parts on matters of mutual defence. Our internal defence should bp pushed on. He hoped that if there was any suggestion of a British battleship squadron visiting Australasia the Prime Minister would do all ho could to bring tho visit about. It would bo an excellent . lesson to our youth. A Suggestion. Mr. HORNSDY (Wairarapa) suggested that the Government should endeavour to secure one or two British war vessels as they became obsolete. He advocated a compulsory universal—though not a conscription—service in New Zealand. He commented on the small volunteer display in Wellington —the capital city—at the Dominion Day colebrations. All the other cities wero moro largely represented. Things Have Changed. Mr. J. ALLEN (Bruce) agreed with tho increase. Since tho Naval Agreement of 1893 things had changed; at the recent Naval ConfcrencG Australia had asked to be freed froiu the agreement, and our Prime Minister should have told tho Houso a few minutes previously what would happen if Australia withdrew, for it would mean the end of the agreement. Wo had no agreement with Britain to protect our commerce in that event. He was sorry that the Government had . not shouldered its responsibility in the matter of preparations for tho defence of this country. Every young man should be mado to play his part in the defence. Ho was not prepared to say that the tirao had come for us to adopt the policy of Australia, but ho was suro that Australia was doing the right thing in trying to make her coasts securc. Wo had been warned to protect ourselves against possibility of a raid. We had not douo this, but it could be done if, the Minister Would listen to the advice which he believed had been given him by tho experts of his Department. Mr. Allen wont on to advocate national training, which he distinguished from conscription, and urged also that wo should take steps for the defence of our trade routes. In our dock acconrniodat.ion and in other respects wo should look forward to the timo when we might have a Droadnouulit stationed here. Too Pcsslmlsticl Mr. R. M'KENZIE (Motuoka) ■ said-tho last speaker was pessimistic about the yollow races, but ho would be in his grave a thousand years before they invaded us. Ho recalled tho scare about Russia and tho fortification of tho cities and the threatened attack had not como yet 1 "I belong to a raco of people," cried Mr. M'Kenzie, " who aro not afraid of any other nation on the face of the earth and lam not afraid of any race attacking this country.'; He thought, however, tho proposal to pay this additional £60,000 to the Homo Government was a fair thing. Ho recited naval battles in the past, in all of which Britain had won. When the Chineso would possess Dreadnoughts wo would havo flying ships. Ho had heard a deal of nonsense in tho Houso, but nono such as they had heard from the member, for Bruco. In a few years our population would, reach one and a half millions, and what nation could conquer us then with Britain behind

Tha Othor Side. Mr. T: MACKENZIE (Wnikouaiti) said that the Japaneso and Chinese wero developing at an unprecedented rato. Thoy had their, young in the training school or tho nations, and wore drawing on tho best specialists of the world, '.flio development would be first in tho matter of trade; they were able to build and man the best class of ships in the world. Their next stage would be to servo the world in produce and industry, and then they would/require their warships to protect their trade and commerce. It was tiseless to suggest that ono and a half millions in this country could produce an army sufficient to defend its shores against au invasion of a nation of over .threo hundred millions. When one hoard of tho cry of Australia for the Australians and New Zealand for Now Zealanders. it was absurd. The man who held the land must be trained to hold it in stern reality, otherwiso tho yellow races might ask us by what right it is held and compel us to assert our right. Wo were living in a fool's paradise, simply because for years we had been sheltered by the protecting arm of the Motlior Country. We i had no system of protection for our shores, and our best and fairest would be shot down as they went forth. Can It Last Much Longer? Could Britain long continue this defence of us in view of the enormous rivalry from tho other nations and the great tax it placed upon her people? _ Tho debate was continued by Messrs. Major, M'Lachlan, Poole, and W. Fraser. Tho last-named thanked the Primo Minister for giving tho cbuntry this opportunity of showing the Motherland in a small way some recognition of gratitude for what sho had done for us in tho past. Tho Premier's Reply. Sir JOSEPH WARD rose to reply at 10.25 p.m. He expressod regret that matters of internal defonce had been introduced into the debate since the two subjects were separate from one another. Ho read his speech at the Colonial Conference to show that he had dealt with tho possibility of Australia withdrawing from the Naval Agreement. No approaches had yet been made by Australia for cancellation _ of the Agreement. Ho pointed out the inadvisability of hedging our contribution with conditions as to tho future such as in the caso of the possibility of the cancellation of the Agreement. Proceeding, lie said mercenary motives alone, without other considerations, would induce Britain to guard these shores from a foo. The actual presence of warships in our waters was a small matter in the defence of. our shores, since deciding battles would be fought far from liore. Ho did not agree with the possibility of large numbers of an enemy being poured into this country. Tho theory of those who knew wbb that it was against the possibility of a raid that wo should prepare. The number of adults in this country, of both sexes, was 503,000; this would be au infinitesimal number against an invasioa A system of Training. As to Mr. Bruco's assertion, lie had long ago expressed himself in the direction of having a system compelling the • cadets at eighteen years joining tho volunteers. Tho details or a uational systom of compulsory

training liatl not been properly considered by its advocates. Between the ages of fifteen and twenty-one there were 101,000 men Hi the Dominion. The number of cadets in the schools was 10,000, and tlio number of volunteers 19,900, or a total between the two of 35,000, which left 69.000 difference between that number and the 104,000 eligible males, fie and all were animated with patriotic feelings in regard to our own country, but tliey did not find it nccessary to give play to them on all occasions. As to compulsory servicc, many of the eligible men would bo out of reach in the back-blocks, and such training as proposed would be absolutely impossible. Ho favoured imbuing cadets with the idea that at eighteen years they should enter the voluntcors. An attempt to force compulsory' servico on the country would be met with a most unpopular and hostilo demonstration. The Defence Department had a very valuable knowledge of what each district would bo able to do. Ho was not going to be led from what, after great consideration, ho believed to bo the right position to take up on this important subject. Visit of a Fleet. As to the visit of a British fleet, after con. sidcration regarding Admiral Scott's squadron coming here from South Africa, the con- l elusion had been arrived at that from a display and object-lesson point of view it would not bo sufficient. The visit of a British fleet here would be a grand thing for both old and young. ADVANCES TO SETTLERS. The' PRIME MINISTER moved the second reading of the Advances to Settlers Act Amendment Bill.' The Bill, said the Prime Minister, was to extend the utility of this Department. The prosent limit was fivo millions, and the extra margin of one million—making six millions —would givo the ' opportunity of obtaining more money to assist the settlers. _ Six millions, howover, should bo the limit. Their returns per annum with tho six millions would bo between £900,000 and a million. At present they wero getting repayments to the oxtent of over £60,000 a month, averaging nearly £800,000 a year. Advances to Workers. Authority was also asked to increaso tho limit of advances to workers from £200,000 to £500,000 per annum This Department was doing very useful work, and the present limit was not sufficient. It was also proposed under the Bill for a Lands for Settlement lessee to raise money on his land from the Department without waiting for two years as formerly. It was further proposed that the two Departments should bo able to transfer from one to the other any sums not able to be lent. The Prime .Minister detailed the operations of the Advances to Settlers Department during its existence. Mr. MASSEY asserted that the borrowing I of the Government in tho colony had caused tho scarcity of money. , Now, if a settler could yiiot get loans from tho Government, ho could not procure it outsido hecause of the high rate of interest ho had to pay. (Hear, hear.) He was glad tho Advances to Workers' Department was doing good work. Ho advised that if tho Department could not advance the money asked for the applicants should bo told so directly, and the position as at present would not then arise. He hoped the Bill would pass.

Natlva Rsquests. ■Mr. NGATA said ho proposed to move to add to Section 189 of the principal Act tho following paragraph to Subsection 1:— "Land laws held under lease from a Maori Land Board'under the Native Land Settlement Act, 1907, whether such land is vested in a board or is land for tho owners, of which tho board is agent for the purposo of leasing, provided the board joins in tho mortgage for the purpose of securing duo payment of moneys payable under tho niovtgago." Interesting Figures. The PREMIER in replying-said the money lont by tho Advances to Settlers Department had been distributed as follows: — Auckland, £1,905,000; Taranaki, £1,003,859; Hawko's Bav, £354,300,; Wellington, £2,27.1,000; Nelson, £170,435; Westland, £123,400; Canterbury, £095,000; Otago and Southland, £1,431,930. Tho total applicants had been 24,541, and tho total advances. £8,894,690. Tho total amount raised up to date by tho Government for investment was £4,535,000. In tho Workers Department tho figures were as follow: — Applicants , Advances £ Auckland 1 ... 454 ... 110,515 Taranaki CO ... 34,256 Hawko's. Bay 99 ... 25,360 Wellington 428 ... 111,550 Marlborough 05 ... 10,295 Nelson ... 56 ... 1,215 Wostland ... 35 ... 15,070 Canterbury 433 ... 112,595 Otago ... ... - 235 ... 56,680 Thus, to September 3 last, 1915 applicants had received advances totalling £482,035, It was absolutely incorrect for the Opposition -to say that tho local borrowing of tho Government had raised tho price .of money. 1 Tho Bill was read n second time. CHINESE IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION. Tho Hon! J. A. MILLAR moved the second reading, of tho Immigration Restriction Amendment Bill. The Bill provides that the restrictions should not apply to Chinese returning to New Zealand within four years after leaving tho Dominion. i'ho Bill was road a second time. BILLS PASSED. Tho Naval Subsidy Bill, Government Advances to Settlers Act Amendment Bill, and Immigration Restriction Act Amendment Bill were put through their remaining stages with minor amondments. The Houso roso at 1.10 a.m.

REPLIES TO QUESTIONS. A valuable paper, comprising a historical table of tho legislation of New Zealand, prepared by Mr. Joliffe (Crown Law Oiflcor), is to bo printed and circulated as an appendix to tho Consolidated Statutes. Mr. Bollard suggested that workers' tickets should be issued in the suburban areas up to 9 a.m. to all young persons able to prove that their weekly earnings did not exceed 16s. The Minister replied that workers' tickets woro granted on condition that they wore used on trains arriving at their destinations not later than 8 a.m. When tho Manawatu Railway is takon over by the Government goods conveyed over that lino will be subject to the Government scale. That keepers of lodging-houses be given powor to withhold luggage for tho non-pay-ment of board as is givon to hotel-keepersi was tho rcauest of Mr. Okey. Tho suggestion, said tlio Minister, would be oonsiderod. Regulations under the Agricultural Labourers' Act have been drawn up, said tho Minister for Labour, but action has not been taken pending tho passing of tho Bill to amend tho Consolidated Shearers and Agricultural Labourers' Accommodation Act. Mr. Okey asked for grain elevators in tho main ports'. Tho Minister replied that much of tlio wheat upon threshing would not allow of its being stored in. a large body such as would be tho case in an elevator. Further, the wliolo output hardly moro tliau supplied tlio local consumption. Bills introduced into the House yesterday woro: Public Works Act Amendment Bill (Hon. Hall-Jones); Agricultural Implement Manufacture, Importation, and Salo Act Amendment Bill (lion. J. A. Millar). The conference between tho managers appointed by the Uv> Houses with a view to ending tlio deadlock on the Second Ballot Hill will be held at 5.30 p.m. to-day.