THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 2, Issue 312, 26 September 1908, Page 8

THE HOUSE.

MONDAY SITTINGS. The House met at 2.30 p.m. The PRIME MINISTER moved : "That on and after Monday, Sept-ember 28, this House meet on Mondays at 2.30 p.m. for the transaction of Government business only." It was, ho said, desirable now to sit on Mondays. To do so would not be unusual procedure. Members who desired to get tho business through would, he was sure, support him. Mr. MASSEY: "I suppose wo havo arrived at that period of tho session when it is usual to take Monday sittings, therefore I don't object." At the same time he would prefer that tho House meet at .7.30 instead of at 2.30 p.m. Ho would also suggest that Monday afternoon bo used for local bills. He would tako, the opportunity of saying that tlio country objected to having' the public business dealt with in the early hours of the morning when tho House was half asleep. He suggested it would bo inipossiblo to wind up the session before the middle of October. Most of the members, he bbliovcd, felt *like 'himself, and ho would suggest'that they sit until then. ("No!")

Tha Bad Old Timo. The PRIME MINISTER thought the Leader of the Opposition was rather unreasonable. As to lato.sittings,.so'far thero had been nothing of the kind, except that onco in a way they had sat until 2.30 a.m. Cries of "half-past five!" The Primo Minister: "My recollection• of the times gone by—" Mr. Massev: Tlio bad old days! '■ The Prime Minister: Owing to the way the Opposition indulged in criticisms in tho past we used to sit until daylight frequently. Jlr. Mi-ssoy must have been thinking of those days. As to local Bills, no day could bo" allotted until they wore obtained. , .The motion was carried.

IMPREST DEBATE. r Imprest Supply Bill No. 4 was introduced , c by Governor's message. '] On tho motion to go into Committoo of , Supply, . Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch) dealt at considerable length with the operation of the J rating on tho Land Values Act, 1896. Ho - said that sinco 1897 (tho date of the operation ? of tho Act) 76 polls to come under the Act } had been held. Of this number 61 had been carried and 15 rejected. Subsequently seven J 1 polls in all were taken to reverse the polls, ? and of these only ono bad succeeded; that j at North East Valley (Dunedin). Tho system * of the unimproved railways it instituted gave ) relief to tho small holder in tho country districts, whose rates, with the natural increaso J on the values of tho land, had been only a small percentage of a penny. On tho. other I hand tho capital valuo system of rating had 1 been responsible for a greater increase. The J country districts had been gradually realising .this, and adoptiug tho unimproved sys- v tem. Referring to the argument that s exempting palatial buildings and mansions J from taxation fell heavily upon the working- jj men, he quoted a mass of statistics to show ? that the rates had. fallen on the unimproved ' .values instead of rising. j Tho, Lyttelton Tunnel. f Mr. GRAY (Christchurch) advocated the j electrification of the. Christchurch-Lyttelton , lino. He quoted statistical evidence to show j that the .tendency in Great Britain, on the , Continent of Europe, and in America was all ( in the direction of electrifying line.s with excellent financial results. Ho showed that in £ Franco electrification had been resorted to as j a solution of the tunnel ventilation difficulty. J Currency. j Mr. HOGG referred to the scarcity of currency, and said that the lack of capital im- j peded very seriously tho operations of the 1 country sottlors.. Money-lenders made merciless use. of their opportunity, and general dis- 1 tress ensued upon non-employment, consequent upon this state of things. A class of s people hero were cornering wealth and ac- ] centuating distress by raising the price of money. It was the duty of the Government to assist settlers freely by means of loans. Mr. MAJOR (Hawera) said that no matter what the security was it was almost impossible to obtain an advance from the banks. Mr. DONALD REID (Taieri) spoke on currency. Grazing Runs. | Mr. HERRIES (Bay of Plenty) dealt with the question of whether holders of grazing leases under, tho 1885 Act held .them as renewable leases or not. The Act only said that if it was decided to release tho run tho holder should bo granted this further lease. A lot of theso leases, were now being determined as, they expired and being cut up, or, in'some cases, they were being renewed. There seemed to be no definite courso in tho matter. Mr. REMINGTON (Rangitikei) said ho had a communication on this matter from a runholder in his electorate. When this settler had taken up tho run twenty years ago, ho had got his material for building fences, etc., to the property via tho Wanganui River at great expense and trouble. Now, unless a twenty-one years' further lease were granted to enable him to reap some of the, fruits of his pioneering work, that settler would have to go out practically a ruined man. Some Contrasts. Mr. MASSJSY said that after tho speeches that afternoon it seemed the Houso'was not in a hurry to closo ' down. , Not that tho speeches wore a waste of time. Quito the contrary, for some wero of importance. Mr. Massey wont on to say that Mr. Rcid had remarked that this would bo tho last occasion on which ho would address tho House. "I think," said Mr. Massey, "l ean speak for the members around me and say that thore aro very few members of -Parliament as popular as Mr. Iteid." (Chorus of Hear, hearsi) He was glad to hear it was so. Ho hoped tljat in the not very far distant future Mr. Reid's voico would again bo hoard in Parliament. (Hear, hear.) As to Mr. Ell's .remarks on the unimproved value, that gentleman forgot t.luit tho effect of this valuo had been to reduce the rates of taxation to many people well able to pay thorn, whilo this meant a raising of taxation on others. This had occurred, and the poorer classos had had to bear the burden. Regarding Mr. Herries's remark on renewable leases, he thought that that gentleman had put the -position mildly. ■ As a matter of fact, in the Gisb6rne district the Government had granted a renewed'lease to Mr. F. Hall, a Government supporter, while in the case of a Mr. Black tho renewal was not granted. Tho Minister,: Will tho lion, member deny that the Land Board recommended the re-. newal? , ' Mr. Massey:'No; he would not deny it; but would the Minister in turn deny that the Land Board had also recommended tho re'newal of Mr. Black's lease? Yet the cases wero exact]}' parallel. An Answer. - ./ The MINISTER said tho Land Boards had to inquire if a ran was suitablo for subdivision. If. so, the lease was not renewed, whereas if it wore not suitablo a renewal was granted. Mr. Hall's run had not been suitablo for subdivision, and Mr. .Black's had.' i In the evening tho debate was continued. A Livelier Passage. Mr. LATJRENSON took Mr. Massey to •task for having; at Palmerston North, said ' the rates of money in the last year or two had gone up 1 or 2 per cent., and blaming the Government for this. • . Mr. 'MASSEY replied that he could not expect the member for Lyttelton to agree with any criticism he (Mr. Massey) might mako of the Government. But he could remember when Mr. Laurenson was not so much : in, favour of tho Government. But he would not recall tho hon. gentleman's position in the past. ( "Oh; oh.") As to the matter of interest on money he was proparcd, to stand'to what he had said as to the. Government having been. responsible. i The Premier in the Lists. : Tho PRIME MINISTER, replying at the conclusion of the debate, spoko on much tho same lines as his last answer to financial critics. Continuing, ho said the old cry had been raised again that the Government was borrowing from private savings hanks, tho Government Savings Bank, and from financial houses, to tho detriment of the people of the country. He had said and it had not been refuted that during the last two or three years they had brought more money into the country than they had borrowed in that period. As to the savings banks money Mr. Massey would have that money lie idle, though paying ', the people . interest upon it. Tho Government did not | borrow the money; to do that thoy would require Parliamentary authority. Tho Sav- . ings Bank was therei to receive tho people's | money, and the bulk of that money had I to be invested in Government security. And j a good thing for the 'people it was so. As to the second source mentioned—tho Auckland Savings Bank—the Governmont had not I had money from there for a long time, and I the position regarding the insurance societies hp. had already explained fully. So this was \ his reply to tho statements about the intorj. nal borrowings. - Nothing of the Sort. ? At Palmerston Mr. Massey had also said , the Government proposed to spend half a J million' on the now Parliamentary Building proposals. Nothing of tho sort had j boon'suggested. Mr. Massey and Mr. Allen had also cried out that this ' money should bo spent on tho back- ® blocks. Tho answer to this cry about 1 the back-blocks had come in- tho votes on tho Estimates. The Prime Minister, facetiously said at Palmerston they had been talking of him as "Emperor Joseph." Well, ho s would take some of tho statements of tho - "Siameso' Twins"_ and analyse them. 1 (Laughter.) Tho Primo Minister then wont.on o to reply to somo of tho things tbon stated. Tho member for Bruce had endeavoured to show that, only a comparatively small prof portion' of tho monoy voted for roads and bridges had been.spoilt. To that the Premier said tho only way to avoid such a thing o would bo to liavo the financial year como monce and end in December. ''

Advances to Settlors. As to the Advancos to Settlers and Advances to 'tVorkors, rumours had beon cir/onlated that £400,000 allocated had not boon

paid. At the present time, with six months of tho year gone, over ono million sterling had been paid out of tho two' Departments. He desired to dispel-some of the vague and baseless rumours about the Departments.. Including all the advances authorised, and of which advice had been given, less lhan £100,000 remained that had not been paid over. This probably meant that not moro than 100 • applicants wero affected. Tho Government with their responsibilities could not go faster than they ■ were going at present. Tho amounts appearing on the schedule •of the' Imprest Supply Bill—" r.,72,500 to' the Advances to Settlors Act, aiid £4500 .to tho Advances to Workers" — were not for advances to workers as somo had said that afternoon,'' but for interest purposes Referring ' further to tho statements that had been made that delay was taking place'in. satisfying the applications to tho 'Advances'-to Workers and Advances to Settlers, ho said they could not supply every applicant at once.- When thero were numerous demands'made, as they had been in tho last six, months, they must be answered in their sequence, and ori\ these lines the Departments were'advancing- at the rate of. about £2,300,000 a year. They could not ask the country toi go further. He was entirely against the' theory propounded during the afternoon that paper currency should bo created and advanced to tho settlers and workers. It would- spell disaster. (Hear, hear.) It could not bo done unless thero was gold at the back to repay, on presentation. (Hoar, hear.) j■" Mr. Massey said that at Palmerston ho had said the whole parliamentary rebuilding scheme, and all that it irivolved, would in tho end cost half a million, and he would stand to that; also that the money could be better spent in the back-blocks.: The Primo Minister said he personally had never suggested that tho scheme was to cost half a million. Personal Explanations. A number of "personal explanations" en-sued-botwoen the Prime Minister and Messes. Massey and Allen. ! The Bill was then passed.

ARBITRATION BILL. FURTHER DISCUSSION. The report of tho committee on tho Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Bill cainb up for consideration.' ' Mr. J. 11.I 1 . ARNOLD (Dunedin) said the Bill differed very much from the measures of two years ago, and of last session. He would have done everything possible to have prevented the latter .Bill passing. He -went oil to recount the history of' the boards of conciliation, and to-show that they-, had' become' courts of disputes. He had been against tho Conciliation Councils as first suggested in this Bill, but was in favour of tho present, proposals, since the councils were councils of pure conciliation. They would be a great improvement. (Hoar, hear.) He dealt at length with arguments against tho Conciliation Councils and their operation. It was right that tho inciter and abetter of strikes should be punished, therefore lie had supported that provision. Ho believed that the Bill would -go a long way towards settling tho industrial unrest of the country. Mr. Arnold spoko his full time. ■ On resuming his seat he was loudly applauded. ■ . . ■ Better Than the Canadian Act. Mr. THOMSON (Wallace), spolce eulogistically of the work Mr. Arnold, had done in rogard to tho Bill. Comparing tho Bill and tiie Canadian, system he quoted a statement in tho Canadian press .regarding, a strike in that country, in ' which- it was asserted that compulsion was wanted at tho' back of tho Canadian system. The Next Great Stop. The LEADER of tho OPPOSITION (Mr. Massey} said that before many years tho Act would again have to bo amended, and tho right thing to do then would to abolish compulsory arbitration, and rely solely on conciliation. Dr. CHAPPLE said the mountain had laboured and brought forth a mouse. Owing to the inherent defccts in tiie Bill,'he hoped but little from its enactment. -Tho Conciliation Councils would have expert knowledge without authority, and- the Arbitration Court authority without expert knowledge. Each was but a part of the ideal whole. I '

Mr.-BARCLAY said tho Bill was.a great improvement on the existing law, but had blemishes. He pointed to the conditions of State employment as superior, to-those of employment under private enterprise, and argued from this in favour of nationalisation of industries. _ Mr. T. MACKENZIE said that those who, like himself, wero not experts in labour matters, were content to follow and assist those who were. ', Mr. T. M. WILFORD eulogised the work of tho Hon. Mr. Millar on tho Bill, and also on the Tariff Bill of last session. Ho hoped to see arbitration and conciliation swept awayj' arid a_ system instituted in which -a 'special tribunal of trade experts would bp set, up for every dispute. He advocated a more general right of appeal in arbitration eases, 'especially in view of the seriousness ofithe punishment of-cancellation'of the, registration of a union. Ho was not satisfied that the point he had raised as to the conflict between the Bill and the Declaratory Judgments Bill had been met. . ' • Hon. Mr. Millar's Reply. The MINISTER FOR LABOUR'(Hon.!J. A. Millar), in replying, expressed gratitude for tho speech of Mr. Arnold, who, he said, was _ particularly well acquainted with the sentiments of the workers. ' Ho wished Jto correct-a misapprehension. Before the Bill appeared, his colleague, the Attorney-.Genc: ral, in a speech advocated certain things' that afterwards appeared in i the Bill.i Some people had called it the Attorney-General ! s Bill, but the fact was'that, like all Government Bills, it came irom the Cabinet, and lie, as the Minister in charge of it, took tho full responsibility for it. In regard to some :of the alterations made by the Labour Bills Committee, he would remind members that when the Bill first appeared tho feeling in the House was such that anything less drastic would not have been acceptable. Thero appeared to a strong chance then of the Act being repealed, and it was only when tho fooling that then existed had been softened by time that the Bill could, bo brought down in a modified form. Progress Under Arbitration. He, like Mr. Massey, was a strong supporter of conciliation, but-there wore times when compulsion must bo used. Ho desired to keep til© Court in the background as a sort of spectre that could, bo.broujght forward and made substantial if required. Tho conciliation of the Bill was simply legalised conferences. To show that our industries hadthriven under arbitration, the Minister stated that in 1895 there wero 4108 factories in Now Zealand, and in 1907 there were 11,586 Tho number of factory workers was 29,879 in 1895, and 78,825 in 1907. New South Wales, with its great territory, resources, and population, had only 88,000 factory workers. Ho claimed that tho system had given-stability t-o industries, and the strikes'" of the last 18 months, with the exception of tho Blackball striko and the slaughtermen's strike, were small affairs. He did not for a moment suppose that tho Bill was a final solution of the labour problem.

The Bill was read a third time and passed, amid applause.

QUACKERY PREVENTION BILL. The Quackor.v Prevention Bill was returned from the Legislative Council, passed with amendments, which consisted of'striking out all but the short title and inserting new clauses. The PRIME MINISTER (Sir J. G. Ward) said he had seen the amendments, and lie was perfectly sure that .if the originator of the Bill -(Mr. Hornsby) wore present, ho would accept them. He therefore asked, the House to agree to the amendments. Mr. ELL: I saw them this afternoon, and the Bill is spoilt. . Other members protested against being asked to agree to what was practically a now Bill, which they had not seen. The "Cag" Clause. Mr. HASSEY said tho amendments seomed .to contain another "gag" clause,

Tho PRIME MINISTER: Considering that nearly all the newspapers have already agreed to, do what is laid down here-; — Mr.. Mnssev said the House should disagree with the amendments at once. The Primo Minister retorted ' that that was tho worst example of an attempt to onfoice a gag that ho remembered. The Leader of the Opposition would prevent the momber, who introduced the Bill having any further voice in its disposal. As to a, certain clause the Leader of the Opposition had voted for it. Mr. Masse,v: No, I did not. 'Tho; Prime Minister said that before ho moved the clause referred to ho handed a copy of it to Mr. Massey. He would have something to say- about that clause on tlic proper occasion, and he would then show how jit had been misapprehended and misinterpreted. - . ■ Consideration of tho amendments was set down, for next sitting day, xm the motion of tho Primo Minister, who undertook that opportunity would be given for the purpose. IMPOUNDING BILL. i The amendments made by the Council in the Impounding-Amendment Dill wcre-agreed to- 1 , ' ' / ' . ; FIRST READINGS. The Fire. Brigades Amendment Bill,' Auckland University College Land' Bill, and Land Drainage Amendment Bill were received from tho Council and read a first time. / . ■■■ I EDUCATION BILL. | UNIFORM SCHOOL BOOKS. Consideration of tho Education Bill was resumed in Committee. . . When progress was reported a few diiys ago Mr. .Wifford's amendment in favour of uniform school books, had beihi carried against tho j Minister. ..... : Tho ' MINISTER for EDUCATION (Hon. G; Fowldo) said that when the last division was taken many members were away, and some others did not qnite understand what they were voting on. The only argument in favour of uniformity was that of expense to parents, but the' introduction of uniform books would cr,st parents as much in-one year as they now paid in ten years for new- school books, when 'they moved from' one place.to another, thus'the proposed saving would be very long deferred. There .were many other ob;cctjoni,' to which he need not refer. ! Uniformity in school books would do an injury to our educational system that would not bo compensated by the passing of the Bill. Ho wished to do something to minimise the cost of s'chobl books—(hear, hear) —but it could bo done without legislation, and it would bo done to the fullest possible extent without injury to the . education system. " . .

The LEADER of the OPPOSITION (Mr.. Massey) said the initial expense to parents, as referred to by . the Jlipister,' coiild.bc lightened by bringing about uniformity gradually.- i • Mr. WILFOKD: Tlie clause would allow of that. The change need not be made for ten years. 1 The Minister's ■ answer was no answer.. As to the cost of the printing of a uniform school bool;,. he not agree with the Minister as to its extent.' Tho Veto. After further discussion, tho House came to a vote at 1.20 a.m. The voices.were against the "AVili'ord" clause, but Mr. Wilford called for a division. The new clausc was lost by 33 to 19. The division list was as'follows:— '. • For the' clause (19) —Alison; Arnold, Barber, Chappie, Ell, Fisher, Gray, Grecnsla.de, Guinness, Herries,' Hogan', Izard, • Lang, Milcolni, Massey, Poland, Ross, Seddon, Wilford. Against the clause (33)— E. G. Allen, J. Allen, 'Barclay, Bollard, Carroll, . Colvin, Dillon, Duncan, Field, Fowlds, Hall; HallJoncs, . Hanan, Hardy, Hogg, Jennings, Kidd, Laurenson, Lawrv. Lethbridge, Lewis, M'Gowan, T. Mackenzie;** Mander, Millar, Ngata, Okpy, Parata, Rcid, Khodes, Stallworthy, Thomson, Ward. . Out of the. 30 who vuicd for the second reading of ; the new clause,- only 15 on this occasion voted •in the same direction, 3> reversed their votes, end anothor, Mr. Tanner, was in the chair. ' , Tile Bill, as amended, was reported at 1.85 o'clock. The House adjourned immediately afterwards. , . >