EXCHANGE OF LAND,

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 306, 19 September 1908, Page 5

EXCHANGE OF LAND,

WOODWARD STREET TRANSACTION. SELECT COMMITTEE'S REPORT. DISCUSSION DEFERRED. Tho report of the Lands Committee of tho Houso of Representatives, to which was referred the matter of tho exchange of land at Woodward Street between tho Government, T. K. Macdonald and Co., and tho City Council, was yesterday submitted to Parliament. Tho investigation was made, it will bo remembered, as the result of statements mado by Mr. F. M. B. Fisher oil tho floor of the Houso. THE REPORT. Tho report of the Committee was as follows :— "Your committeo has taken evidence oil and exhaustively inquired into the following statements which have been referred to it for investigation: \ "Ist. That the Crown had sold either to Mr.' T. K. Macdonald or the Wellington Ciiy Council a certain area, to wit, 6.55 perches of derelict land situate on Wellington Terrace, nea.r Woodward Street. . "2nd. That said sale had been effected without competition and outside tho provisions of _ tho statute, whereas it was claimed that said _ land should have been disposed of by public competition. "3rd. That the price obtained for said 6.55 perches was considerably less than its real value. "4th. That the strip of land conveyed to the City Council by Mr. Macdonald was only 0,47 of a perch, and not 4 porches as stated by Ma.cdonald, Wilson and Co.'in their letter addressed to tho Under-Secretary for Crown Lands, dated Slay 2, 1907. "sth. That there was something irregular in tho bargain made between the City Council and Mr. Macdonald in regard to the erection of certain concrete walls, to bo used by Mr. Macdonald as foundation for tho building to be orected by him later on. "Your cominitteo examined tho following witnesses:—W. C. Kensington, Under-Secre-tary for Lands; R. A. Patterson; Chief Accountant, Lands Department; Paul Verschaffelt, Record Clerk, Lands Department; R. Letham, messenger, Lauds and Survey Department; F. H. Martin, Government Valuer ; E. • B.\ Brown, barrister, Wellington; Hon. T. W. Hislop, Mayor of Wellington; Hon. T. K. Macdonald, M.L.C., W. H. Morton, City Engineer, Wellington; J. O'Shea, City Solicitor, Wollington; J. R. Palmer, Town Clerk, Wellington; F. T. O'Neill, Chief Clerk, Lands and Survey Department; Hon. It. M'Nab; F. M. B. Fisher, M.P., Wellington. , "Your committee is satisfied that no one reading. Messrs. Macdonald, Wilson, and Co.'s lotter of May' 2, 1907, can como to any othor conclusion than that it was written on behalf of the Wellington City Council. "Tho Minister for Lands agreed to sell; ■to tho Wellington City Council the 6.55 perches under Section 117 of tho Land Act, 1892, solely in order to facilitate tho carrying out of an agreement entered into by the City Council with the owner of part Section 487. whereby the grade of Woodward Street could be greatly improved. " , < . "The Lands Department adopted the proper and constitutional course of arriving at the value of the said. 6.55 perches—viz., by employing tho services of the official valuei of tho Valuation Department, who valued the land in question at £652. Tho evidence of the said valuer, Mr. Martin, satisfied your committee that a fair value was placed on the land. .• . "It is a matter for', regret that' Macdonald, Wilson, and Co. should not have boon moro careful when stating the area of the strip of land intended, to bo conveyed to- tho City Council, 'Their letter of May 2, 1907, describes this area as being 4 perches, and further on refers to'it 'as'being of 'about equal size and value as the 6.55 perches,' wnoreas, as a matter of fact, it only consisted of 0.47 of a perch. Mr. Macdonald, when giving evidenco on this point, declares that on May 2, 1907, he was firmly of tho opinion that he was to concede 4 perches of his own section to the City Council, and that later on, when ho discovered that it was only 0.47 that was required, he gavo tho latter piece for nothing. Still this doea not exonerate Mr. Macdonald from blame in not making himself acquainted with tho real facts of the case before writing to tho UnderSecretary for Lands. Thero is littlo doubt that this mistake has given rise to much of tlio public comment on the whole subject. "Your committee is, however, satisfied by the ovidenco-on this point: that tho area of this strip, as Stated in said letter of May 2, 1907; was' not a determining factor with tho Hon. the Minister for Lands in deciding to agree to soli to tho City Council the 6.55 perches under Scction 117 of the Land Act, 1892. "Your committeo has no opinion to express in regard to tho cost of erecting tho concrete wall and foundations, that being a matter with which the City Council is solely concerned. "In conclusion, your committeo has to report as follows: " 1. That tho Hon. tho Minister for Lands was justified by the circumstances of tho caso in selling to tho City Council, under Section 117 of' the Land Act, 1892, the 6.55 perches of derelict land. "2. That the Hon. tho Minister for Lands ■only consented to transfer tho land direct to Mr. Macdonald on condition that tho City Council should pay tho sum of £652 to tho Receiver of Land Revenue to the credit of the Hon. T. K. Macdonald, and • only after being assured that if the said land n;ore conveyed to the City Council that body would be unable. to transfer it to Mr. Macdonald, in which caso tho whole scheme of improvement to Woodward Street might havfl to be abandoned. "3. That tho price obtained by tho Crown for said 6.55 perches was a fair and reasonable one. „ " T. Y. _ DUNCAN, Chairman." TIME FOR DISCUSSION FIXED. Tho Hon. Mr. Duncan moved, "That the report lie upon tho table and be printed." Tho Primo Minister: And I would suggest that tho words ho added, "and that coitsideration of samo bo' fixed for another day. Ho would then sco tho matter was brought up. This would givo members a ohanco oi reading the evidence taken before tho committee, and they would bo able to speak with full knowledge of facts. Ho moved "Thatthe debate bo made an order for tho next sitting day." This was agreed to. _ Mr. Fisher mado a request for tho'original filo of papers and plans. Tho Ministor pointed ont tho procedure was against such a course. Copies and facsinnlies would bo available, but _ the originals were submitted to tho committee; but not to tho Houso. In reply to tho Prime Minister, Mr. Fisher said ho wanted to seo the original plan Bent by Macdonald and Co. to tho Lands Department on May 2, 1907. Ho had plonty of copies of the lithograph, but, what ho wanted to see was tho original. : The Primo Ministor said it would bo irro-; gular to do as requested by Mr. Fisher, but tho latter could rely upon the faesimilios being onrefully chocked by tho Minister. If lio found anything was missing on tho facsimilies ho could ask tho Minister a question when tlioy camo to tlio delate. However, tho whole thing would bo looked into. The report was laid an the tnbln, and th« motion regarding its discussion ww carried. THE EVIDENCE. STRANCE CONFLICT OF TESTIMONY* MR. KENSINGTON'S ACCOUNT OF THE INTERVIEW. Tho evidence token by tho Lands Committee on tho Woodward Street tr.uitiactioni occupies upwards of sixty closuly printed foolscap pages. It is only pmwiblo to give hero a few of tho ealiont features of tho testimony of ditforont partial to tho affair. Mr. W. C. lvonsington, Under-Siseretary for Lands, pivo tlio following aoooant of I what took plate during tho visit paid to him

by the Mayor of Wellington (Hon. T. W. Hislop) and the Hon. T. K. .Macdonald, M.L.C., ,'on April 29:—"Mr. Hislop said to me, 'Wo wish to see yon about a small picce of Crown land that the Crown has in Wellington Terrace, just at Woodward Street.' He said, 'The council are anxious to widen Woodward Street.' I said, 'Yes, it is a very Barrow street, and wants widening very badly'. He said, 'It would materially assist the council in their negotiations with tho, owner of tho area at tho junction of Woodward Street , and the Wellington Terrace if the Government would sell to the council'— or, tho words he used wero 'dispose of to tho council'—'that area, so that they could exchange it with tho owner of the area at the comer.' I said, 'Yes, that is a" reasonable thing. It is a public work, and it is a public body that is'asking tho Government to do it.' I then said, '1 will just, send for the papers, and we will see the area.' The Record Clerk, Mr. Yerschaffelt, brought in the papers to me, and stayed, at my side a few minutes while I was turning over tho tracings showing the area in question. When he had stood a minuto or two, I said, 'That will do, thank you,' and ho left. Tho Mayor said; ' Well, we ought not to bo made to pay heavily for this, it being a public work.' I said, 'It .will have to be bv valuation. If you will write a letter, I will lay tho whole matter before' the Minister for Lands.' The Mayor said to me, .'OhI Mr. Kennedy Macdonald will write the letter for us.' He was sitting l there at the time. 1 said, 'Very well. Let me havo tho Jettor. as soon as you can.' The Mayor said, 'I hope there will not be any delay about the matter.' I said, 'No. I will take steps at once, and if you will let me have the letter I will lay it before'tho Minister.' I think the Minister was in, Auckland at the time, or on his way down. J 'said, 'The Land Hoard will have' to approve of it!' I' am not quite certain whether I said to' the Mayor and Mr. Macdonald. 'Have . you seen Mr. Strauchon?' I fancy 1 did, but we, can-get that evidence from Mr. Strauchon, if necessary. The Mayor said, 'We do not want to go to auction, because'people might run us up moro than the worth of tho land. Is there any • section under which it can be dealt with ?' I said, 'Section 117 meets a case of that kind. You own the street, and I do not suppose the adjoining owners will offer any objection.' I do not know whether the Mayor or Mr. Macdonald. said 'No, there will not be any objection.' I had not the remotest idea that Mr. Macdonald was the owner of the adjoining, section. In our tracing Mr. Love is shown as the owner, and I was unaware until afterwards that Mr. Macdonald was in.it. I wrote that afternoon to the Commissioner of Crown Lands, and told hinv to have a valuation' made." ,■■■ Question of Areas. J , Continuing, Mr. Kensington'related the proceedings leading up to tho approval by Cabinet at" the sale of land on his recommendation. The approval was given on May 29, and the price was £652; as named by the Valuer-General; He proceededOh May 31 I wroto to the Commissioner of Crown Lands, telling him that the Government had agreed to sell to the Wellington City Council the section of 6.55 perches. There is one matter. T will just refer to. When tho Mayor came in and; spoke about the sale oi this area he said, ' You have got an .area'of about sis porches or so in Wellington Terrace, and wo want to exchange it for something similar in area with the owner of tho adjoining land. It is not quite so much as that. It is four or five perches odd, as far as I am aware.' I said, 'There is ono point I notice.' I had not been quite clear as to the impression of tho'area to be conveyed by the owner to tho City Council in exchange for tho area that the' Crown was to sell.' The Mayor snid, ' Tho area you have got is somewhere about six perches?' 1 said, 'Yes.' ' And,' he said, ' the area we are thinking ;to obtain is somewhere about that.' I 'said, 'There is very little difference. In any case, .it is a matter for the City Council afterwards!' I just hark back,' becauso I think I forgot to make that point jost now.' It is an important point, because afterwards when the letter or memo, came from Macdonald, Wilson, and Co., I pointed out in my memo, to the Minister that the object of the council was to. widen the street, as shown on the attached tracing. The question has since arisen as to the area shown on that tracing, The Decimal, Point.' "If you look at Macdonald, Wilson, and Co.'s letter you will see that it mentions clearly, 'It is necessary that the council should absorb some four, or five perches of the present section at the corner of Woodward Street.' That is, four or five perches belonging to tho owner who was to be'exchanged with. That is what I understood was about the area to be exchanged with the area to be purchased from the Crown. When the letter came in from Macdonald, Wilson, and Co., and I sent it on with my. memo., I just glaneed at the tracing and looked' at. the letter. The letter embodied exactly what occurred at the interview between the Mayor, Mr. Macdonald, and myself. I saw the figuro 4 there. That is, 4 perches. I did not notice that there was a point —v a slight point—in front of it. In fact, you cannot call it a point. The reason I mentioned the tracing to the : Minister was to. show him tho position of the portion to be taken off section 487 to widen Woodward Street. The letter from Macdonald, Wilson, and Co. embodies, to my mind,-exactly what wo talked about— the area we discussed. It was not until some little , time afterwards that I looked at the tracing, and saw that the measurements given there showed a very much less area than the area that was mentioned. Tho subsequent transactions are all shown in this correspondence. ■. Another Interview With the Mayor. "The only other question I think tho committee would like somo information upon might be' the question as to why the transfer was made out direct to' Mr. Kennedy. Macdonald. The Mayor came to see me somewhere about the date that he wrote f the Minister.' The' letter is dated September 5. Well, a day or two before or about that date, the Mayor came and saw me, and said that it'seemed a useless thing for the Crown to issue tho titlo as to the City Council, and then,that tho City Council should have to convey to the owner of the area to be ox-, changed. Then I learned for tho, first time, that Mr. Kennedy Macdonald was the owner, Of course, that did not make any difference as far as the transaction was concerned. He; said, ' Is there no way by which we could get rid of this red-tape by whicli you will have to issue a titlo first to tho council, and then the council yrill havo to reconycy back to the owner?'; I said, 'I always object to red-tapo if I can get rid of it. I can see no reason, if tho council's cheque is paid over to the Receiver of Land Revenue, that the cheque should not be made payable .to the person with whom tho land is exchanged, but you must write to the Minister, and I will tell him that 1 see no objection to the proposal.' Ho did, and his letter is printed here, dated September 5. I advised tho Minister that 1 could seo no reason why this should not be carried out. From that I heard no more about the matter for a short time,, until Mr.' Strauchon came to seo me two or three times, about the transfer, and eventually the Receiver of Land Revenuo received a chequo. Whoso chcquo i I did not. know at tho timo. I have heard since. He received a chequo. for ! tho money, and'the certificate- of title was issued under Section 117 of the Land Act, 1892, after the Land Board had approved. The Land Board did approve, and the titlo was issued to Mr. Kennedy Macdonald, vho was tho owner." Later, Mr. Remington asked: "Reviewing all the circumstances as they are iu the full file of papers, if you bad had the information at the first interview with tho Mayor and Mr. Kemjcdy Macdonald that he waa tho owner of tho first section at tho corner of Woodward Street, and that you were to recommend that the section was to be obtained without competition—tho section adjoining that —and that all the City Council had in view was to obtain that piece of land for Mr. Macdonald, would you havo sent along the memo, you sent to the tho Minister?" Mr. Kensington replied"No, I should not, for one reason—that, Mr. Macdonald being a member of the Legislature, I should prefer tho matter should not bo dealt with through me. Ho should have applied himself for it, and we should probably have pnt it up to auction. But, this being a city matter, I did not take these matters into consideration, because I did not know that Mr. Macdonald was then the owner."

EVIDENCE OF RECORD CLERK AND ACCOUNTANT. Paul Vorschaffelt, record clerk in the Lands Department, said ho romembored tho visit of Messrs. Hislop and Macdonald to Mr. Kensington about tho Woodward Street transaction. Ho was in tho room two or thrco minutes, his chief duty being to seo that the right papers wore thoro, and ho brought in a lettor about Woodward Street. Robert Amiers Paterson, chiof accountant, Lands Department, also romembored the visit. The Under-Secretary afterwards told him tho subject of the intorviow. • Robert Lotham, messenger, also testified to tho Hons. T. W. Hislop and T. K. Macdonald having called together at Mr. Kensington's offico about April.: Corroborative testimony on tho same point was given subsequently by F. T. 0 Neill, chief, clerk, Lands and Survey Department. THE MAYOR'S STATEMENT. Tho Hon. T. W. Hislop (Mayor of Wellington), who had heard the evidence of the above witnesses, stated in his own evidence that he did hot seo Mr. Kensington at all about tho-Woodward Street matter. Ho said: "I was .very much disturbed by what Mr. Kensington had said, and I have since puzzled my mind with a view of ascertaining whether there was a possibility of my being mistaken. But not only does my momory bear out what I originally thought, but the circumstances, which are very definitely planted in my mind, are definitely opposed to it. I should like to have found my memory at fault; because it is a very disagreeable thing not to agree' in one's recollection with a gentleman whom I scarcely know, but who, I have no doubt, is held in high respect. And I can only supposo that tho difference in recollection arises from some confusion, of' certain. matters. I saw Mr. Kensington for the first time in my lifo to speak to, either at tho end of October or early in November of last- year. That was tho first time : I spoke to him. Ho has stated that I was three times in his office, and that is absolutely correct: I was only three times there, and my visits on those occasions were about a different matter, and I have a definite recollection that, when I went to tho office I had not been to the Under-Secretary for Lands' office, for, I suppose, 15 years." After giving tho circumstances of the three interviews to which ho had alluded, Mr. Hislop said:' "If I could 'bring my recollection in line with Mr. Kensington's I should be delighted to;do.it, because there is no reason why I should not have gono to see him on the subject he mentions —to get this arrangement carried out—if it was my business to do i it." Mr. Hislop also told tho committeo about the steps which had been taken to arrange for the widening of .Woodward Street from tho time of. his becoming Mayor. Macdonald, Wilson, and Co.'s Lettor. Mr. Hislop stated that Macdonald, Wilson, and Company were never authorised to write to the' Government about the matter on behalf of .the Wellington City Council.' ; Mr. W. Fraser, M.P.: Am Ito understand that on April 29, the date of Mr. Kensington's lettor, you knew nothing, and had taken no steps to acquire the derelict land to oxchange, nor Had ' you contemplated an • exchange ?—No; we had not contemplated an exchange.. . At. that timo I did not know of the land. ■ That is, on April 28 you did not know of the derelict'.land?—No.. "• And, therefore, you could not have contemplated exchanging it for other. land ?— No. .. In . regard to the plan which accompanied Macdonald,, Wilson, and Co.'s letter to_ tho Under-Secretary • for. Lands, Mr. Hislop said:—"l suppose it was got to go.with tho lott-er of May 2. The plan would be furnished to Mr. Macdonald, because ho was known to be interested in the land. It would bo furnished by. the City Engineer. I know nothing of it." ' Mr. Fisher,: You havesaid that the first you knew of the transaction was on receipt of a letter from the Lands Department on Juno 29? —I am.'not quite sure whether it was mentioned by Mr. Macdonald before then or not. If it was. mentioned before that it.was in such a casual way as not to make an impression on my mind. I do not pretend to know every detail and tho date of every detail. 1 asked the Town; Clerk what took place, and he said he was puzzled, and that ffhon he showed'it to me -I stood quite a minute puzzled as to what it could bo. Then I looked at the map, and I connected it with the conversation 1 1 had had with Mr. Macdonald. - : MR. MACDONALD'S EVIDENCE. The Hon. T. K. Macdonald, M.L.C., said: "I saw the City Engineer and T also saw a sketch of the' land proposed to be taken, and I thought that if 1 could . get tho vacant ground on reasonable torms it.might bo worth while. I got tho notion from tho sketch that the amount required was four perchos, and Mr. Morton told me that ho could not tell exactly how much was wanted until ho got an accurate survey. I took stops to ascertain whose tho vacant land was,; and found it belonged to thoiGovernm'ent. I saw Mr. Kensington. 1 went there alone. I said to him that there was a bit of land on the Terraco near Woodward Street belonging to the Government, and it adjoined land at the corner of Woodward Street., and. tho Terrace, a part of which the Corporation wanted for street improvement. I asked if thero was any way for the Corporation getting it and making an arrangement with the owner of tho land wanted for street purposes. Ho sent for information, and 1 think 1 then ascertained the ' area. What I at ' .the timo 'wished to bring about, was an arrangement under which there would be no personal loss, and at tho same time which, would enable tho work to bo carried out. 1 was under tho impression that the. area wanted by the corporation would greatly restrict my building area. I have no doubt that I put strongly what; was the fact— lianiely, that it was the City Council that wanted to carry' out the work, and that an oquitablo arrangement with, the council would facilitate tho matter. Mr. Kensington adopted my viow, and suggested that 1 should write, and I did so. I,did not mean by my letter that I was acting for tho City Council." 1 Later, Mr. Macdonald said ho was never in Mr. Kensington's office with the Mayor excopt oh ono occasion when Mr.' Kensington was not there. ' After relating an interview with the Government Valuer and auothor interview between himself and tho Mayor subsequent to the receipt of Mr. Strauchon's lettor by the corporation, Mr. Macdonald said: "I did see Mr. Mortoh, and discovered that I had been undor a wrong impression about the ( area, and I camo to the agreement which was afterwards signed. A question arose about tho wall, and a now arrangement was made as to my contribution." In reply to Mr. Fisher, Mr. Macdonald said: "Speaking from memory, I sent to tho City Engineer's office for a plan of tho property, and one ;of the. junior clerks, I understood, brought it back just at. tho time that tho letter was going. I gave instructions to put it in tho letter." Mr. Fisher: Can yon tell us when did you first realise that you woro only to give a few feet of your land? —After tho Mayor's interview with mo. That was after the receipt of tho letter from the Commissioner of Crown Lands? — After the receipt of tho plotter stating what tho price was to bo, when I told him. And at that timo,' as a mattor of fact, the Wellington City Council had not applied for the land?—l do not know anything about what tho council did in tho mattor. All the documents in the matter prepared by tho council were not submitted to me! I knew nothing about it. You see, tho letter camo from tho Commissioner of Crown Lands on Juno 28, and on receipt of it tho Town Clerk called on you, f.nd you went and saw tho Mayor?—l presume so, from tho correspondence horo. And it was at that intorviow that the Mayor said only a few feet would bo required?—l presume so. Then there elapsed the months of July and August, and not until September 5 does the Town Clerk_ apply for tho land. But there in no mention of tho important realisation of the wrong impression you were under, oither in tha.t letter or in tho other letter? Yon nover told tho Government?—lt nover struck me to tell the Government. Tho Government had fixed tho prico, which I thought was absolutely too big a prico.