CHURCH STANDARDS.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 304, 17 September 1908, Page 4

CHURCH STANDARDS.

REV. J. K. ELLIOTT'S OVERTURE. TO BE TRANSMITTED " SIMPLICITER." ■FINAL DEBATE IN PRESBYTERY. The last; stage in the ".discussion of • the Rev. J. Gibson Smith's views of tho Atonement, .so far as the Wellington Presbytery is concerned; was'arrived at yesterday; when' the Prosbytery decided, after a warm debate, : to transmit "simpliciter" to ;,tho Assembly the overture of the Rev. J. Kennedy Elliott, asking for a" re-affirmation of, the Church's adhoronco to its standards. Thero was a largo attendance," "and 'the Rev. J. M'Caw occupied the chair. . ■ : At a previous meeting the transmission of tho overture was.moved by the Rev. J. Ken-', nedy Elliott, and seconded by tho Rev. W. Douglas. ■ ' ;■' The Rev. W. J. Comrio asked if the mover and seconder wero prepared to accept an amendment; 1 or 'if J, they-were' -resolved to divide tho Presbytery on the overture as it -- stood. ; ■- ' " - " Mr. Elliott-said he was determined at a'll. risks to stand by tho overture." • '■• OBJECTIONS TO THE ■OVE-RTURE. ; Tho Rev; R;: liiglis' said' he desired to "speak against the overture on /tho;- ground that it contained) n complaint aga.inst a minister. ; : Mr. Elli'ott urged that. Mr. Inglis had raised this - point befo.ro, ancl,. ; a. iruling had. been, given against'him.v Mr. Inglis urged that the overture sought to shift the .responsibility on to' ■' the Assembly.'.'.Again, tho overture was not, fair to Mr. 'Smith. It" did not quoto fairly: from tile book-;, olio of the quotations, which he read, wis' not complete, and the wholo .' force of .the ipassage depended; on tho final clauses, which wero omitted from tho overture. Itwould present the Presbytery in a most ridiculous light to come before' the , Assembly with the overture. in its present form. Again, ho thought that thft overture,.. ■ would be futile., Was there any need'to reaffirm their standards? Did -not tho suggestion convey an implication against,, their ministers? Would the ..presentation of the overture nia.ke : one' honest - minister more honest, or one dfshonest • minister' more honest? Moreover, the Presbytery had cided to transmit its finding of 1 the previous day to the Assembly, '.and..he thought that, the itransmission of the. overturtf-wasHhefer'i i , fore, unnecessary. He .-moved: that the! oVerture be not transmitted. ; Tho Rev. .J. Comrie- thought that-con-'i

' . oeivably thero might bo\ benefit in <a. fresh-, .affirmation of tho ..standards., Tho.C-overture, : however, [Contained. .distinct charges against a minister, accompanied by certain partial statements; and'charges of-that kinii'should not be made in overture; form'.' : If . the overture did not imply a cbargo ( of heresy, ho did not understand tlie-English' language. If tho mover , and seconder were; determined : to stand- by the motion in its .present form, he must reluctantly vote against it. He moved ■as an amendment:— . "That the' preamble of the overture be omitted, with a view of inserting words that, .shall not contain , a charge 'sgainst'ia.i'minister'of .this .Cliurch."_ • The Rev. A. 'T. Thompson expressed agreement with Mr. Comrie.. He thought that it .was, unnecessary, to send, forward'tho overture at all : the -overture; '.'be wished;'.to* obtain fronr tho' • 'Assembly.;' riothihs* (further ' than; a coiidem'na-: jof ttheipoofc V-'«, rv.j lapsed. 1 , , ! willmg-that'4he'' : i'l'simjjliciterv ) T ithsit£an;f. be-, mg latfacneq.' Hp/would pref€r l-to//drop%[t}io-matter'-altogether,but' no i-iloubt oome>before.;thev Assembly. in' : nny«case. :V -'\* - : , Mr. : .;Patersotlr inov'e'fl; to-, mddifyi.'tho..' 'irio-'>, tion, to-make v it' read "that the' 'Pros byte; retransmits'the overture simpliciter." Mr. ; Comrie urged that the motion could . either; say. "adopt, and 'transmits,": or "trans-' %mita; simplicity-." The' motion .'.; as' it stood 1 proposed merely to transmit. . The.Moderator ruled -that all three wordings were . allowable. '.' _A confused discussion took dace on tho effect of tho three wordings:- ;It was finally agreed to make Mr. Elliott's motion read adopts and transmits." -' v ' : '

MR. ELLIOTT SPEAKS HIS MIND. Mr. Elliott 'said he had'found that when 'a member of the Presbytery undertook an unpleasant duty,- ho iieed not'' look ■ for' an excess. of, sympathy -or encouragement from other member's. Also,.tho men wliom ho might with most cause expect to stand by him were the metf-liablo to-fail-him, . "Mr. IcgliS askctl whether it'was proper for Mr. Elliott to cast reflections' on tho Presbytery. . r . ~■ , . Mr.. Elliott said that members of tho Presbytery who had condemned the book in tho first place had since turned a somersault. _ If the Presbytery failed in its duty it would make itself a laughing-stock, and there would, be widespread ■ amazement at its conduct. Ho was sure-that;Mr."Smith -hid .Put a meaning of his own into' tho word justice. Mr.' Smith had made very clear that he would not bo a martyr-to his opinions. He thought that Mr.' Smith might have retracted, and agreed to withdraw his book.' Ho might also have told the committco that they wore .hcncst . men, who-.hated evasion, juggling, and quibbling ; tllat; their doctrines were undoubtedly' divergent, ; arid 'tliat ~lio must leave the Church. 1 Ho might have done that and gone ■ outwith all the honours of war. He now' felt'. that all 1 pacific.' proposals were closed. They could not do it there, but Mr. Smith would bo driven out of the position ho had taken, and would liavo to come out into tho open. No bod}', .not even a debating .society,'.: could allow itself to be defied, 'and tho Presbyterian Church of Now Zealand must and would assert itself whatever tho Wellington :]?resbytery''-iiiight do. The Church should:: not say "pCaco'-' where no peace was,and they should .not, admit themselves, not so'much soft-hearted, as softbraincd. : .'; ;, RIVAL MOTIONS. : After further discussion, tho ,motion for adoption and transmission of the, overture was put to the and' supported by five .votes. .. The amendment to . transmit the overture Bimpliciter found;eight supporters. The amendment-was then put as a substantive motion, .and -adopted by eight votes to three. It was. oxplained that the three hostile votes were virtually cast for the rejection of the overture. - - It was proposed, that. Mr. : Elliott, should appear in support.;of.'the overture before tho Assembly. Mr. Elliott agreed to this, on tho Btrict understanding that': ho was not to bo held responsible in any way for the previous conference, which lie thought had only complicated and, embarrassed .the. position.. .• "WIRE-PULLINC" DENIED. The Rev. R. Inglis referred to remarks made by the Rev.'lt..ll._ M. Sutherland, of Kaikorai, with regard 'to'alleged .''wire-pull-ing" of members of- the - Wellington.Presbytery. Mr!', Sutherland's , remarks jlwere' road as follow:—.'1 lvant-to-k'iiowV.if iti-is right for this Presbytery (Dunedin) to interfere behind .tho, scenes' and try! to; prevent tlio Presbytery of Wellington from saying or doing anything in the matter. . . It may be interesting some, day, in the interests of truth ■ and. fa.ir dealing,, to unmiisk ..certain wire-pullers. The matter is too serious, and the'action of'tho prOßbytory of Wellington, engineered by the wire-pullers outside, is so uncertain and, so far as has yet appeared, so little to the purpose, that if nothing more is dono tho Church will bo made a by-word and a reproach among faithful men." "

3lr. Inglis said that ho objected to' this statement from tho "Bombastos FUribso" of the Presbyterian Church" .of'."Now Zealand.' Ho moved that' tho Presbytery of Duncdin Bhould bo asked to require. Mr. Sutherland to> substantiate. the allegation, or withdraw it as publicly as it hod been made. Tho Moderator (the ReV; J. Gibson Smith, who had resumed the chair): Does any ono second the motion?

Douglas: I don't think it is worth ■ while troubling about it. . 1 Mr. Inglis: '.Well,if. the momborsof the Presbytery take it lying down like that! The Rev. A. T. Thompson repudiated tho suggostion of wire-pulling, but thought that no notico should bo taken of tho allegation. ; Mr.'Comrio: I think.'we will be consulting ' our own dignity and tho peace of tho Church to. let, tho matter drop. It is beneath contompt'when a man hurls chargos like that, arid -our Presbytery should -not lower itself a to tako notice of those things. They will recoil'on the man's own head. ' • ' Mr. M'Caiv strongly denied the statements ' of wirepulling. •• \ Mr. Keith thought that 'tho Presbytery . would .do itself a great deal of harm to take . notice', of •" such a contemptible, stupid , matter." Ho thought that tho author of the allegation must have lost his head, . 1 .The Rov. J. Paterson advised that no.no--1 tice'should be taken of tho allegation. It was pointed out that the Wellington Presbytery had discussed Mr. Smith's views at its first regular meeting following publi- • cation of tho book. ■ . It was agreed that the repudiations expressed should bo referred to in the minutes, and the Presbytery decided to let tho matter "rbst'-'at :thatV '• ' , \ • .\ . -