THE COUNCIL.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 300, 12 September 1908, Page 7

THE COUNCIL.

SECOND BALLOT BILL. SPEECH BY DR. FINDLAY.. •..Yesterday's.', proceedings in tho Legislative Council , r were confined to a debate on the : Second Ballot Bill., ~ _;fThe A'ZCORNEY-GENERAL. y(Hon. Dr. Eindlay), iiii .moving, the second reading of the measure,, said, that, looking at the figures arid , results, it was the duty of a political leader, quite apart from party motives, to segk 7 ty, establish some' more .effective system of .securing; majority rule.- The. Council itself had experience of the secoiid ballot in the election, v of; 'the Speaker and .tho -Chairman of. Committees, and he was sure that Councilors' would not care to exchange it for the present system. of electing members of tho House of Representatives. (Hear, hear.) The " Gag K Clauses Dofonded. . Spealting of- what had .been called—incorrectly and, ; unjustly ; as;he ' thought—the gag clauses, he' would ask councillors not to be too much influenced by/tho comments of tho press. There wero.' gentlemen in that Council .who wre associated withUhe press, and although' they boro' ah "exceedingly high rethey could not' help sharing in journalistic prejudice,..which was all tho more "complete for, being unconscious., ' He' thought tho cessation of controversy "between'the,ballots would .be,-welcomed .as the balm of peace. ""Proceeding; Dr. Pindlay;said. tfyat all.tho public would require'to"know'about tho candidates, or', at all events, all that tho press could tell them, • would be known before the firstrballotitookiplaoefi.jAny man who fought pn s ,«lection jt iMuld,: not-.be done rfor.nnothing/{.) and;jibbftre.o iYMngo3d iro.en in parliament, .who', could not' have 'afforded a double campaign. . Thus,-,:without ;some such clause,/; the second-ballot.'would- give an. adyantago;:to;;tho.'.'n;ealthior..nian.. -, ..' - •Hon. Mr. Paul*. Why ntffc deport both candi-dates-to; some'other. island? ;• Hon.;- Dr;" Firidlay: "Not doubt. ' some of them~deserv« it." .Would- they, he continued, allow, electioneering by the. candidates- be-' tween the two ballots, or would they not? Hon. Mr. Rigg and-others :"Yes. Allow it." ■The Hon.' Dr; Jj'indlay • replied that ho thought'Mr.'-Rigg must be'alone in that view.', It was opposed to the .'interests of the' class' which "ho'represented. Tho:Press and tho Long Purso. ; - Again, if the riewspapers were left quite unrestrained, the wealthy 'man, would, be favoured. '.He'wished rto speak with the utmost 'respect''to'the newspapers,'but it "would be mere cant to deny that tho man who had a long purse would be the most "likely to have the support ,of-the newspapers. ' : -Hon. Mr. Carncfoss: "That's not very generous." ' ."•Hflri."' Mr." Jenkihson: "All tho ' newspapers'?"- ■ . ■ ,' ' v ' '*' Continuing, the Attorney-General' said he knew what sort of things tho press' would say of the remarks he was now making. Ho did Tiot Tnifld'-presS" criticism. "Ho had had a lot of it.. Speaking generally, if there was a. contest between two men, .and press supportjWas required, it would go in very .many cases to .the rich man, and . not to the poor man. Independence of the Council. ; ;Tho,Council had been frequently told by the .press that ;it ; had riot .the intellectual superiority, of , another place and not . such an indojicriderico as would do it most credit. Yet (luring the last fow days the press had adopted quite another tone, and had written in such a manner as to flatter the susceptibilities of Councillors with a view to induce them to throw tho Bill out. . The clause under discussion would .cause some of tho newspapers ".to . be a 'little : less readable, and to'cam a little' less money, during a few "days, and he would suggest,that a little self.interesfc—perhaps quite unconscious—was tho explanation of this outburst' of indignation on tho part of the press. He asked Councillors :.to"act with courtesy, to the other House, which had pissed the Bill by a large majority.' "He did not think many of them would vote' to throw out a measure which did no't directly affect them, but by which the members of the other. House had declared their wishes as to the methods to be adopted in their own elections. Ho be-lieved-the Council would be guided by such considerations as that; and not by somo false assumption -of an independence which they were always able to show on a proper occasion. (Applause.) ■ OTHER speakers. The 'Hon. S. T.: GEORGE (Auckland) said he approved of the Bill as first introduced. He argued from tho figures of the last election that the Bill could not have been brought down for party purposes. ~ Ho thought the Council should only amend "the Bill'with aview to effecting its object more' cbtripletely. On .that ground he urged jtliat' the 500 majority clause should be deleted. . Ho also suggested that,'in order to ge.t a' large vote at the. second ballot, the local option poll held, in connection with the first should bo declared null and void, and a fresh one held along'with the second poll. In his further ro'marks, Mr. George prophesied that the secoiid- ballot, system with tho 500 majority clause TM-.uld result-in the Opposition candidate for Wellington East being returned with 600 more votes than cither of the two Liboral candidates, whose poll would be nearly equal. He strongly advocated a system of voting through the post, both for first and second ballots. A Labour Member on tho Press. ■Tin: Hnn. J. T. PAUL (Otago) said tho Bill was ostensibly designed to ensure absolute- majority representation, but had boon altered so, that. it would not do so. , It would, moreoveras it stood, take away the right of public meeting, the right of freo Bpivcb, and tho freedom of the press, and these" things should under no circumstances be dono. The democratic principle was not representation of majorities, but representation of all tho people. The present electoral syHU-in, as compared with'-an absolute majority system, was not altogether bad. Mr. Paul went on to guote authorities against

tlio success of the second ballot in Germany. ' iltcvcrting aenin l to -tlio . "gag clauses," ho declared that ho had not much to' thank tlio press , for, but ho recognised that tlio New Zealand'press compared favourably with that of Victoria. On coming to 1 New- Zealand'from that State, ho was ; amazed 'at tho fairness' of the newspaper repo'rtSj which 'woro never "cookod," as was ,' invariably dono in Victoria. 'Hon. G; M'Lcan: Why should you gag everybody else, and leave tlio press.free? Hon. Mr. Paul: "I say you' should gag nobody. Tho candidates should bo perfectly free- to liold mootings." Proceeding, Mr. Paul said he believed the clauso could easily bo evaded.' Though, he' did not approve of tho Bill, ho would try to make it a hotterBill if .it was going to. bo'passed. The Hon. WI PERE (Hawko's - Bay) said the Bill must liavo originated in representations made by defeated candidates to tho Prime Minister. The other House had very goodnaturedly'agreed to give those poor defeated candidates another chance—'(laughter)—arid lies, thought the -Council should show a similar kindly snirit. The Hon.' W. W. M'CARDLE (Auckland) argued that restriction on press comment was desirable' in country districts, where candidates could not possibly reacli all tho elector's between the polish The Bill would givo the people better facilities for choosing representatives than they had ever had before. Thero .would bo_no' more blackening of the ■characters of candidates who had not the party brand. • Ho- supposed that if the Bill was; passed, neither the Premier nor the Leader of the Opposition - would declare in favour of one candidate more than another oii- the same side. He disapproved of the 500 majority clause. ' The Hon. J. RIGG (Wellington) said_ he did hot feel strongly cither for or'- against the Bill, but could support it with somo amendments. " ■ ' " Mr. Rigg was interrupted by the Council adjourning at 5 p;m. until - 7.30 p.m. • ' EVENING SITTING. .Resuming at the ovening sitting, Mr. Rigg said ho did not believe tho Bill had been introduced to crush, tho Independent Labour party, and evein if : it were, it would, not succeed. (Hear, hear.) Ho was confident of tho success of that party, and if it . was retarded by the second ballot, that would bo to its advantago in tho end. 1 Ho would try'to have the 500 majority clause deleted. He strongly objected to the "gag clause." The Hon. iR. A. LOLGHNAN (Wellington) also .strongly opposed tho gag clause." Messrs. Carncross, Macdonald, Callan, and Luke supported the Bill, but emphatically opposed the " gag clause." , The Hon. J. E. JENKINSON (Wellington) opposed tho measure. It should bo referred to the elector's. Tho Hon. W. BEEHAN (Auckland) hoped the measure would bo passed in its entiroty. The Hon. G. JONES (Otago) said he intended to support the' secorid reading, but lid objected to tho 500 majority clause and tho "gag clause," which was reminiscent of tho Dark Ages. ' Tho Hon. CAPTAIN TTJCKER (Hawke's Bay) thought that tho brief period of peace botweon tho two elections would bo appreciated by candidates and voters alike. The second ballot was analogous to tho rehearing of a- Court case on appeal. Attorney-Ceneral in Reply. The Hon., Dr. FINDLAY, in tho courso of! his reply, said tho electors, during the period botween the two elections, would bo in a position similar to that of a jury which had come to an inconclusive verdict, and had been sent back to consider the matter. 1 Wis it fair to ask candidates to continue' to further their candidature during the poriod between tho election's?. It would b® in the interests of everybody 'is silence between tho elections were _ imposed.' If the' clause were' not passed, it would mean that the contests would bo embittered after the first olection. Ho would ngreo to the insertion of a provision to tho effect that no newspaper proprietary be ■ -convicted ; if, in tho opimon''-of : the r ' : judgd;'"'tho'';Vtatementß published vr.ci;o jn the best iritef'ekti''of j public. o .ttvortt.. .-.a Tho second reading was agreed to on the voices, and the Bill was set; down for committal on Tuesday. "The Council adjourned at 10.30 p.m.