THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 291, 2 September 1908, Page 9

THE HOUSE.

FIRST READINGS. The House mot at 2.30 p.m; yesterday. The Agricultural " Produce Sale and Impor-' tation Bill (Hon. R::'M;Nab) and the Coal r Mines Amendment Bill. (Hon.. J. .M'Gowan) , we're read a first time. ■ . . : THE ESTIMATES. ' DEPARTMENT OF The fiouse at; 3 p.m.' went into.Committee of/ Suppily for the' further i consideration of tho.Estimates! ' \- The ■ total vote for the Department of' Agriculture (Class :XXII) was £149,033 (expended last year, £136,041). Air.. HERRIES , v mentioned the item " " International '• Exhibition, Christchurch:' • exberises in..- connection, r with Departmental ' esnibi^T;-£6ii:M.s , 'Ho;,did.-not'''. , irish to .find' fault with the'.oxhißit, which waa an cxccl- . leut and'useful/.display, did not like to .see' these' repeated' items on ,'thtf Esti' mates after. everything' was supposed ■to be paid. One thousand two hundred and thirtythree pounds .was:.vote'a last year for this ex-, hibit. Would. any...further sum bo asked for ' next yearP'.^He.ralisb'asked.'''what .was the system?, of:? selecting,' persons. to-, whom the leaflets,, of the Department wero 'sent. . Several; Canterbury members urged . that, more should be,done; to assist local bodies and settlers to; cqpe' with. the small birds nuisance. * . _• Mr. 'HOGG submitted that the salaries of meat inspectors- : wore inadequate. . • Seven- ' teen ," lay. meat inspectors got £125 to £185 a year; , and,' twenty-five - " assistant meat inspectors " £150 to, £190. He suggested that- gome of'. the , inspectors, them6elves needed- inspecting.- (Hear, 1 hear.) y 1 '. Mr. DAVEY wished to know whether the ' Government -would bring, in a Bill to prohibit persons other than certificated veterinary'surgeons practising, on animals.

Tho Wet-Letter Minister. . . .. Mr..;WILFORD congratulated Mr.;-M'Nab' on; the'-.success of, ' his 'administration "of tho - Agricult'uraJ,.'Department.; . He named i Mr/ M'Nab;tKe " wet-letter Minister," explaining that the answers to letters addressed to .him came back promptly,,wet from the copying book. Ho (Mr. Wilford), : while recognising the high degree .of skill required by a veterinarian,.'insisted, that (such positions should be-thrown fully open-to qualified.New Zcalanders. "Ho noticed that newspapers who had most unfavourably, criticised the Government in connection with the importation of Mr. Gilruth were lately'using the Bame weapons against the Government for allowing tlmtv officer to-leave.,-Mr.-JENNINGS asked for-more: assistance in the,.destruction'of rabbits., Going- from Paemako tol Te Kuiti, he found them as thick as leaves in Vallamßrosa. . ("Ohl oh!") He also, adyopated the extended use of Angora' goats'as destroyers of weeds. . .' - *'

Salaries and other ,Matters. ' Mr. BOLLARD argued that the small-birds did not do so much , harm "as was Supposed. He thought salaries in the Department were generally too low. The Secretary for Agriculture should have mbre than £625. . The Chief Inspector of Stock and Director of Experimental Farms; who had, he. believed,been in. the service .or the Department twenty or . twenty-five,years, was. getting only £525. Mr. Bollard also advocated the establishment of. a school of agriculture for the /North Island. It should. be in the' neighbourhood of : a large town-, and should tako pupils at ten; guineas a year. They .should work on the farm,-, and should be able to go home for the weekends: In tho evenings they could attend university lectures. He had nothing but good to say of the experimental farms. Mr. T. MACKENZIE- advocated higher salaries for the excellent officers of. the veterinary branch. Ho wished" to know what was being done in London' 1 to prevent our meat being interfered with by the threatened prohibition! of boned beef. . : He- suggested that th;e Industries and ComiWce Committee should'be instructed to. inquire into the subject;/and its report might be sent to the British Government, and thus be tho means of preventing .the stoppage, of a very important branch of our export trade. In regard to agricultural," he suggested : that : some . of- the . brightest of our youths should bo seiit to 'study at the best agricultural colleges abroad.

Ministerial Reply, i , The MINISTER (Hon. Ri-'M'Nab) said tho £614 for tho exhibit l at .Christchurch was for the fitting up of "the-hall,where the exhibit was displayed. The had supposed that tho Exhibition authorities would bear 'that'cost. He hoped it would ho the last charge in connection' with the exhibit. The Department's leaflets .were sent' gratis to any farmer who lyroto for them. Thero was absolutely no discrimination. A sum would be placed on the Supplementary. Estimates for further bperations. against small' birds. The appareht lowness of the salaries some of the .meat inspectors was due-to the fact that some of them held positions with the meat companies,, and some had houses placed at their,/disposal. 'Arrangements had been made ,with, tho Otago University to train veterinary surgeons,, and thpse trained thero would have first claim on the Department. He believed that for many years the Department would • be able to take them all. • In-connection with tho question of salaries, -ho would' like members to look at the great development of this-De-partment within the last Jew years. Difficulties had always.'been caused to tlio Minister by tho growth of tho Department. At the start a certain scale -of remuneration seemed fitting,, but development was so rapid that in a year or two the remuneration was quit" inadequate to tho work. The Agri cultural. Department', was ■ tlio lowest paid Department in the service. . So much money <ms asked for.'from year to year for new branches that the Minister did not rare to , face • the' House with ' *Miiibd for more ' money for* salaries yL regard - to Angora goat's, their value in destroying, weeds was proved, but tho Government was not a bio to cope with tho demand from the increase, of its pure-breel flocks. Unsuccessful attempts had been mado to get a supply from Australia. . If the establishment of a school of agriculture was decided on, it would be a matter for the Education Department, and therefore he did not wish

to discuss it 011 thoso Estimates. A sum of money had boon voted for providing accommodation for cadets at the Ruakara farm, but the superintendent found that, owing to tho cost of building matorial, tho vote was insufficient. Ho hoped, howevor, to have accommodation provided, and also to have a now set of farm buildings at Ruakura. This would not .be a . school of agriculture, but an institution for cadets. Every effort was being made to bring the merits of our boned beef under tho notico of the Homo authorities, but tho trouble had arisen from tho product of somo other country, and as New Zealand's share in the trado was small, compared with tho tfhole, ho was afraid the trado would be stopped. Further Suggestions. :Mr. nANAN said tho salary of Mr. Ritchio, Secretary for Agriculture, was much too small. It was only about half that of the Genoral Manager for Railways. Dr. CHAPPLE urged that young New ZealanderS should bo trained as exports for tho service of the Department. Thoy could bo sent , abroad for the purpose, and would thon bo better fitted for tho work than imported experts. / Mr. OICEY, said it was not right that fruit oxperts and apple graders should. receive higher salaries than veterinarians. Bone Manure and Anthrax.. Mr. D. REID moved to reduce the vote by £1, as a protest against the item, "Two inspectors of manure sterilising at £450, £900." Ho said tllat one of thoso inspectors was stationed at Calcutta and, one at SydThere had-been no anthrax in the Dominion for four years, but he did not know whether this was due to the inspection. There were other charges estimated at £900, and tho oxpense altogether seemed heavy. . The MINISTER said the inspectors had to do a good deal of travelling. Tho money was well earned. Anthrax was a terrible disease, and he for one would not care to be a party ,to allowing bonedust to come into the country without inspection. The inspectors had to.seo that the proper means wero taken to sterilise the bones-. The New South' Wales Government was becoming impressed, with the' importance of the mattor, and would probably appoint inspectors of tho output from the factories, so that it would not be necessary for the' Now' Zealand Govornment to send an inspector to Sydney. Mr. OKEY said members wished to support the Minister in > this matter, and the subject was only broached'in order to cause publicity, and restore the confidence of the farmers.

Ex-Mlnister's statement. The Hon. T. Y. DUNCAN said the freedom of the Dominion from anthrax, during the last few years justified the decision taken while he' was Minister for Agriculture, to liavo the bones. lwfore they were sent to New Zealand 1 instead of being dealt with on'-arrival. • Mr. HERRIES asked if it was correct that there had been no. cases of anthrax in New Zealand for the last fow : years. He was glad to' learn ' that/' in the opinion of the Department, 1 the.inspection was thorough. Were there any meaijis of detecting the anthrax bacillus in honedust after its arrival at New Zealand ports? ' -Tho MINISTER said it was over two years since a case of anthrax had' been reported in New Zealand. There' had been no case that was 'traceable to bones which had a certificate of inspection. There would bq no examination made at this end, unless the inspector drew particular attention to. any .shipment.

Member for Otakl Converted. , Mr. FIELD said .that lie had been ono of those who advocated tho sterilisation of bones after landing in; the' Dominion, but he was now satisfied that the Hon. Mr. Duncan and his advisers had taken tho right course in insisting on-inspection before snipment. The results had been most successful. T}ie MINISTER said, in answer to a question, that the quantity of bono manure imported to New Zealand from Australia every year was about 2300 toniS,' and tho amount from . India was about -10,300 tons. . Ho, wished to acknowledge that. tho credit for the adoption of tho successful system of inspection was-due to his predecessor in office, the Hon. Mr. Duncan, and his Departmental advisers. ' (Hear, hear.) • ■ Mr. REID withdrow his motion. ' Small Birds. 1 Mr. FLATMAN advocated' the subsidising of local bodies for-tho destructions of small birds as a more effectual means of coping with tho nuisanco than the • offering' of a bonus of £250 for tho best means of destroying small birds.

, Mr. ROSS asked whether the item, "Inspector of Meat, London, ££00," was the same as had been previously passed in another class. He also suggested that, the system of meat inspection by any Now Zealand official in London should not .be based upon the conclusions of the conference of veterinarians held in London • sorao years ago, but upon New Zealand standards. He also urged the necessity of inspection: of pigs killed on' farms.. Wellington Abattoir Quastlon. ! Mr. BARBER ' insisted ( that all meat slaughtered for human consumption should be inspected. Twenty-five per cent, of the animals, killed for this purpose in New Zealand escaped inspection. People who suspected that their cattle had any' disease would not tako them to a place where they would have to be inspected. That was the case with a great deal of the meat consumed in.the city of Wellington, owing to the delay in establishing a municipal abattoir. . He .would like tho Government to malco an example of the Wellington City Council. Tho Hon. Mr. Duncan could remember tho efforts made by him (Mr: Barber) when he was a member of tho City Council some years ago,, and even yet Wellington was not enjoying the benefits of an abattoir, though' smaller places—Westport, for instance—had such institutions. Stale Farms.

Soveral members referred to. a return which appeared to show that there had been '& loss of £74,000 on the experimental farms. Mr. FLATMAN said that if the increase in the value of these properties wero.allowed for, the accouuts would show a balance on tho other side.' He thought this should be done'in future returns. v , Mr. HERRIES said it was impossible to have all meat inspected wherever' it was sold. The lay meat inspectors, should be rather bettor qualified than at present. ' Mr. THOMSON a.dvocated removal of the protection of stoats and weasels. ■ The Hon. T. DUNCAN said the last, speaker-evidently wanted to foster the export of rabbits. f' Experimental Farms. Tho MINISTER said the experimental farms were'not always appreciated as they now were, ajid it had beert difficult to get appropriations • for them. Under those circumstances the' distinction between items chargeable to capital. account and items chargeable to other accounts had not boon strictly observed. Consequently the return alluded to did not show tho real stato of affairs.. Also tho expenses incurred in connection with tho stud animals were not taken account of. Tho lay meat inspectors wero men who had _ been assistant ' inspectors. Throughout their period of service they wero undor tho supervision of tho Chief Veterinarian. Better men could not bo selected frrfm the trade, and no appointmotnts were mado without tho recommendation of tho Chief Veterinarian.

"Poultry for Export." Mr. MASSEY testified to tho value of tho experimental farms,, but said a more strict record should bo kept of the experiments. Tho item £3148 for preparing poultry for export seemed to vequiro explanation. Tho MINISTER, replying to soveral speakers, said there was good reason to hope that tho imposition of natural enemies of inscct pests, such as the codlin moth parasite, would bo a. success. The item "Preparing poultry for export" was for tho wages of ccrtain employees at tho export depots. The money was recouped from tho exporters, and tho cost to the country was nil. . Mr. MASSEY asked how this could be the case when the total export was set down at £1233. It must relate''to poultry, for the

Now Zealand market also, and if tha.t was tho caso it was not right.- Thoso who Bent poultry to tho Auckland market; for instance, should not havo their products graded by tho Govornment any moro than other producers. It was absolute nonsense. The MINISTER submitted that there was no reason why tho exports should not bo employed in grading eggs and poultry for tho local market when tnero was not enough export work to keep them fully employed. Mr. Cilruth's Resignation., Mr. HERRIES moved tho reduction of the item of £650-for tho salary of the Chief Veterinarian by £1, as an' indication that information should be given as to tho resignation or otherwise of Mr. Gilruth.

The MINISTER, in replying, road a letter from Mr. Gilruth to the Secretary for Agriculture, under date August 7, 1908. In this communication the Chief Veterinarian referred to reports that had been in circulation, and stated , that he would make tho position' clo'ar. Ho had 1 received a communication from the Registrar of the Melbourne Univorsity to the effect that a chair of veterinary pathology was to bo established, and asking if ho would accept tho appointment should it bo offered to him. He had replied that he would accept it. He regarded tho offer as a great honour. It would afford opportunities for .special work, and he knew of nobody that would decline such an offer. He had ' (lie continued) sinco received notico that ho had been appointed. He did not anticipate that lie would need to relinquish his present appointment until the beginning of next year. Ho had not sought the now. appointment in any way, and had even stated when he first' heard of the intention to ostablish tho chair that if it wero advertised he would not be an applicant. Ho added that it would reflect great credit on the Department. Mr. M'Nab also read a letter which he-had forwarded to Mr. Gilruth through tho Secretary for Agriculture, conveying to him the congratulations of tho Department, expressing tho Minister's sense of the honour done to the Department by the appointment, and stating that arrangements would be made to suit Mr. Gilruth's wishes as to' tho date of his relinquishing his present dutios. Mr. Reakes to be Chief Veterinarian. .In regard to. who was to be Mr. Gilruth's successor, Mr. M'Nab said he had already told Mr. Reakes (assistant veterinarian) that he would be given the refusal of the apE ointment. A,s to reorganisation within tho department, it was' to be presumed that Mr. Gilruth, as a capable officer, had as good an organisation as it was possible to get. Therefore, he had no present intention in connection with reorganisation within the Department. If when Mr. Reakes took charge ho had any suggestions to mako they would bo duly considered.' In regard to the relations botween that and other divisions in the same Department, no doubt the time had come when somo of them would havo to he made separate departments, so that they could be drawn more closely in touch with the Ministerial head. He had no' intention of making tho veterinary division a Department of its own in the moantime, although from time, to time, .as the divisions developed, it would be necessary to bring them moro closoly into touch with tho Ministerial hoad. He also felt confident that tho time was coming when one Minister would have to confine himself entirely to tho administration of the Agricultural Department.

Organisation of the Department. Mr. J. STEVENS considered that both tho Minister and Mr, Gilruth had acted rightly in the matter.- Ho suggested that Mr. Reakes should bo at once appointed to tako tho place of chief veterinarian. Mr. J. ALLEN said he wished to refer to the growing conservatism of the Minister. He did not think tho' question of salary was ■Mri Gilruth's only cause of dissatisfaction. The Minister had last year ' and proviously expressed.au intention of making the veterinary branch a separate Department, with tho chief veterinarian reporting directly to the- Minister. _ Mr. M'NAB said Mr. Allen had misunderstood him. All that he had forecasted in tho way of reorganisation had been offocted. Ho meroly said that tho work of tho votorinary division and the _ stock division should bo separated, and this was done. •'. -~ Tho Hon. T. DUNCAN said that if tho different divisions of- tho' Agricultural, Department wore made separate Departments they would probably not work smoothly together. The present arrangement was much hotter.

Tho motion to reduce the vote by £1 was lost on tho voices, Noxious Weeds. The MINISTER, in the course of further replies on other items, said he did not. think it would be possible to introduce a Noxiius Weeds' Bill this sossiou. , Mr. MASSEY expressed regret at'this. A Bill should _be introduced immediately. In fact, the Minister last year had promised a measure. Dairy School. Tho MINISTER ; replying to a question, said ■ that tho Dairy School at Palmerston bad not been proceeded with owing to enabling legislation being necessary to legaliso the transfer of the site on the Manawatu Show Grounds to tho Crown. Replying to Mr. Field (Otaki) he said.that he himself had chosen Palmerston as .the site for tho school. He had consulted only one responsible officer, whose-answer had been in favour of Palmerston North. ' The total voto was passed. STATE FORESTS ACCOUNT. The total Estimates of this class was £30,201. Mr. -MASSEY! recogniscd that the' Crown was doing a good deal in tho way of afforestation, but •'after' -all' -it was only a drop in the bucket. Settlers should bo subsidised in. planting various trees by a grant' of Crown lands. Tho law- should bo amended in tho direction of exempting from taxation the land upon which tho trees wero planted. The MINISTER Said that two small nurseries—Kurow and Starborough—had been closed or were to bo closed. It had been found that suitable trees could not be grown profitably at these small nurseries.. Larger areas _ of trees _ would bo grown at the bigger nurseries and less money would be expended. The Government had not decided to, alter its methods yot, though a new scheme had been under consideration for some time. His scheme, however, could not bo submitted at tho present juncture. The matter referred to was tho afforestation of private lands. To exempt lands planted with trees, as suggested, would be a very great concession compared with what was in viow. Farmers Were ignorant of the right class of trees to grow.' He proposed a scheme by which a fanner would bo supplied with trees free if ho would undertake to properly protect the planted areas, and plant tho class of trees suggested by tho Department. Tho initial cost of the trees was tho greatest bar to tree-planting. The cost of the treos alone was about £7 an aero if' tho proper number wero planted.

Mr. HERRIES contended that tlio cost of the trees was not tho bar, but tho greater expense of fencing. He described the propensity of stock to break through fences and 6teal He hoped the State nurseries would provide trees free for. Arbor Day plantings. The MINISTER reiterated his conviction that it was the initial cost of the trees that laregly retarded tree-planted. Somo remarks of the lion, momber -would suggest that ho was not well acquainted with tho matter. Hg had mentioned cheap varieties of trees, but tho best class woro tho most costly. The class was passed. > SCENERY PRESERVATION ACCOUNT. ' Total vote, £9275. , Tho class was passed. LANDS FOR SETTLEMENT ACCOUNT. Tho total voto of this class, £20,530, was passed without discussion. STATE COAL MINES. Tho total amount of tho class was £319 733 Mr. J. ALLEN said that the Seddonvillo mine had not been paying. At tho same timo large increases in expenditure woro proposed. Ho also dwelt on the fact that tho railways were paying £1 per ton for tho Point Elizabeth coal, wbilo to the people it was sold at lis.

Mr. GRAY said the State mines had primarily been started to supply cheap coal and keep down monopolies. J'roni evidence submitted to a Select Committee last session it; would seem that these primary intentions had been departed from. Too often small consumers were unable to get . their coal for sovcral days, and in many cases those small' consumers had to pay cash, while largo concerns wero given credit. Ho showed that on tho Seddonville mine in three years a loss was recorded of £15,918; but against this there was a profit of £54,290 from tho Point Elizabeth mine, leaving a net profit on tho two of £38,331. He contended it was not fair that tho Point Elizabeth mine should- carry the Seddonville mino on, its back. Tho latter should be closed down. lie also argued that tho expenses of railage, shipping, and distribution, etc., wero too heavy, absorbing tho profits of tho mines. He was not satisfied with tho management—or rather tho mismanagement. He did not advocate largo profits, but an assured financo for tho Department—tho ability to pay interest and provide for depreciation. Tlio Minister's Reply. Tho MINISTER wanted tho mines to bo considered as a whole. He had never claimed the Seddonvillo mine to bo a profitable concern, but last year tho loss had decreased. As to small consumers having to pay cash and large concerns being given credit, it must bo remembered that tho Department had to bo run on sofmd business lines. Mr. ALLEN contonded it was unfair to bring in competition with private enterprise a concern run at a loss. Mr. COLVIN (Buller) said that no mino proved profitable for some years. The Seddonvillo mine, apart from tho fact that it employed 300 hands, was cutting into bettor coal, and proceeding towards paying point. It would be profitable in the next two or three years. Mr. Colvin spoke with considerable vehemence. Tho Hon. J. DUNCAN dwelt on the importance of the experiment of the State mines in view of the object for which they wero started. Mr. HERRIES. contended that tho railways should not be charged anomalous prices for State coal; that if customers could not bo found for the coal it should not be i forced upon tho railways. The supply to the railways had increassd steadily. The MINISTER said tenders had been called by tho railways for coal, and the supply from Point Elizaboth was the result. Mr. BARBER (Newtown) asserted tile objects of the State mines had been largely achieved, and he congratulated tho Department on tho result, of -tho depots. Tho matter was debated at length, chiefly on the lines of Stato enterprise versus private ontenirise. Mr. GUINNESS (Grey) argued that if tho railways were allowed to tender for coal from all over the Dominion less State coal would be absorbed in that direction, and more would bo available, for public consumption. He advocated, additional depots in various parts of the Dominion. The class was passed at 12.40 a.m.'

OTHER CLASSES. The Maori Land Settloraont Act Account (£737); the Public Trustee's Account (£49,014); tho Government Insurance Department (£70,354); Government Accident Insurance Account (£8810); Stato Firo Insurance Account (£13,313); Government Advances to Settlers Office Management Account (£156,773); and Government Advances to Workers Account (£11,023) were all passed. This concluded tho Estimates, and tho House rose at 1.20 a.m.