THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 282, 21 August 1908, Page 9

THE HOUSE.

FIRST READING. \ Tho House met at 2.30 p.m. yesterday. Tho ilureliison County "Bill (Mr. It. M'Kcnzie) and tho Otago Heads Native Reservo Road Bill (Mr. E. G. Allen) wore road a first time. ,- " , WESTPORT HARBOUR BOARD BILL. Westport Harbour Board Loan Bill, consideration of report. . Tho PRIME '. MINISTER (Sir Joseph Ward) said that at the)' request- of tho member for the district and of . tho Harbour Board, lie had gono into tho finances of the Board, and had found them-very satisfactory indeed.. Tho t Board's responsibilities in the way of loans woro considerable, _ but notwithstanding' this tho financial position was roniarkably sound. Ho referred to tho proposals, of other harbour boards' in the Dpminion to extend 1 their facilifcios, and said, it .' was evidently dono in tho interests of expanding trade. It was as well to know, however, that when thoso obligations wore being entered into, tho position of tho Boards was sound. '■ Tho Bill was read a third timo. CHRISTCHURCH SANITATION. Tho Chvistchurch City Sanitation Empowering Bill was rocoivod from Committee and read a third itimo.. ~ OTHER BILLS. ; The Oamaru Town Hall and Gasworks sites and Recreation Reserves Bill (Hon. T. Y. Duncan) and tho Oamaru Harbour .Board Loan' Bill (the Hon. T. Y. Duncan); wero put through committco without material alteration and reported. . > The Christehurch City Betterment' Bill (Mr..Gray), was next taken.

Leiigthy discussion cnsuo.d', upon . tho extent of - powers which should bo given to municipal corporations to take land for street, widening ' and other ■ purposes. Tho discussion...centred.,,round. p.e : \v, added to seetioii'l3: of thd-,ljill, limiting tho powers rogqvdnigitlie-takji\g;.ofi Jonclita cases whoro tho owners'- : consent- had previously boon, obtained. Mr. Gray objected tothis proviso, holding that, the .powers should bo compulsory!-•• ■ • ■■-.. -•••• The clause was retained by 32 votos to 17. •' ■' 'J'lio remainder of the clauses woro then passed, and the Bill was rcportod. OAMARU RESERVES BILL. The Oamaru Reserves Bill was, 'with tho permission of tho House, put through all stages, and passed. ' REPORTS WANTED. / On the motion to go into Committeo of Supply to consider the Estimates. Mr, JAMES ALLEN (Brueo) voiced anothor Opposition appeal for certain Departmental reports, Tho reports ho, mentioned wero the 1). 3 list, Defence Report, tho Nominal 11011, and Prisons' Report; ■■-Regarding the Dofonco Report, ho said ho could not understand what was keoping it back. Tho report should be more interesting this yoar than usual in view of the-two years' existence of tho Counoil of Dofonco.' If these reports were in tho minds of members, it would enable them to deal more intelligently with tho matter of .officers' salaries when tho several estimates wore being discussed. , Iho MINISTER FOR JUSTICE remarked that tho Prisons Report was ready. > Classification List, Mr. ARNOLD (Dunedin) said it was now over twelve months sinco tho Civil Sorvants Classification Act was passed,' and ho understood that oven boforo that dato instructions had boon issued to certain officors to have a ■ classification prepared. Beforo tlio classification could bo adopted a ""month had to elapse to enable objections to bo .lodged. Unless, tho list-was ready in-a short timo there was roason to supposo it would not bo laid upon the Table of tho Houso this session, and coiud not, consequently, como into force for another twelve months. Tlio Civil Servants throughout tho wholo of the Dominion woro very anxious. It was understood that no increases had been made in the permanent estimates this yoar in salaries in consequenco of this classification schoifio, and that if tho latter did not como down tlio increases would be placed on tho Supplementary Estimates. . This meant that tho Estimates would come down, at tlio last moment and would go through rapidly, and little opportunity -woiild bo given for-altera-tions t» bo made. It was unfair to members of tho Houso and to Civil Servants that the maitor should bo hung up- in this way. Ho was not suro whether tho holdiiif back of the Classification list would not also entail a similar delay in the publio sorvico. Superannuation Act. Hoik W, lIALL-JONES (Minister in Oliargo) -said tho Government could not bring down tho Classification list until they had tho recommendations of the Classification Board. Ho hoped to have the list before tho i Houso shortly, but if not the increases would como out in tho Supplementary Estimates, and ample opportunity would bo given tho Houso to discuss them.

THE ESTIMATES. The thread of the discussion on tho Estimates, which was broken by the Fleet visit, was taken up at Class IX—Printing and Stationery. Tho total vote was £4G,270. Mr. HERRIES complained that tho system of printing tho rolls in the Government Printing o(fic,c : was not as satisfactory as tho old methods. . Tho MINISTER in' charge in tho course of some remarks,, said that tho officer, in chargo of.tho printing works was a mo3t eflicient man. The producing of' tho rolls by the Government had been so simplified that once tho first roll was produced tho subsequent cost would bo infinitesimal. Mr. AITKEN, whilo expressing admiration of tho 'method of printing the rolls, pointed out in reply to a remark of tho Minister that rerisioirwould havo to bo more frequent, and would prove heavier work than the Minister seemed to think. Ono school teacher In a suburb liad told him that 33 per cent, of the children had changed their habitation since Christmas last. This meant that their pnrontfi lmd done the same. In another district 75 per cent, of tho scholars had left tho district 111 twelve months. Mr. WITTY complained that tlxo rolls Wore

(lot as satisfactory as they might be. People were on who wcro dead, and thoro wcro hundreds not on who should. bo.

Tlio PRIME MINISTER said that while tho roll was printed at tlio central, office, the supplementaries wero to bo printed in tho various electorates. Tho main, rolls wore corrected right up to tho date of issue. They would now bo availablo to tlio public much earlier than was tho case, under the old system of having them printed in tho different districts. Tho Government intended to utilise tho police force to seo that all thoso entitled to enrolment should be oil tho roils. .Mr, JENNINGS drew attention to the alleged insufficiency of accommodation at tho Government Printing Office. ' The printing and stationery vote was passed unaltered. Tho Stamp and Deeds Departraont vote (Class X) was £38,891. This was passed unaltered.. Nativa Department. Class XI, Native Department, total £28,222, was then taken. Mr. J. ALLEN said that though 110 had been a member of the House for some years, he had not boon able to discover what the policy of tlio Department was. Mr. Edgcr had been appointed a long time ago to reform tlio Department, but instead 110 had boon roforreetl out of it. lie (Mr. Allen) hoped tlio Minister would he ablo to show that the money to lie voted was to bo used for opening up Native lands and doing somo good to tho Maoris, and woiild tell the Houso how the land was to be opened and how good was to be .done to tho Natives. For his own part, 110 thought Parliament had not done nearly as much as it ought for tho Maoris.

Mr. HERRIES urged the need for a Maori Domesday Book that would show tho ownership of all Maori lands.. Tho Department had the ■ information,. and it was only a matter of compiling it. Such a work would save much inconvcnicnco in Native land transactions. Mr. MAJOR spoko of tho disinclination of 'Maoris to outer European hospitals. Motion to Reducs tho Veto. Several members asked what. were tho duties of the Under-Secretary, to pay whose salary a vote of £600 was asked for. In this connection Mr. l'lerries moved to reduce the. vote by £1. The NATIVE MINISTER. (Hon. J. Carroll) said 110 was inclined to concede that tho Department-was insufficiently staffed, and ho hoped to bo supported when 110 asked'for increased sums for .salaries. Tho members who. had spoken had boon in Parliament long enough to know what tho duties of an UnderSecretary wcro.

-, Mr. J. ALLEN said ho knew the duties of other Under-Secretaries, but those of tho Under-Secretary .of the Nativo. Department wero a mystery t-o him. Had that Department anything to do with tho purchaso of Nativo lands, or with the Judges of tho Native.Land Court? The"Minister had said that it iiad something to do witii titles to Nativo lands. Was it necessary, to have a special Department for that purpose? Before tho Department camo into existence, four or five years ago, such matters .were air tended to by tho Justice Department. Ho oould seo no improvement as a result of tho creation of the Deriartmont, and it did not appear to bo worth its cost. Tho MINISTER- quoted statistics to show tho amount of work done by tho Nativo Land Court.

•Mr. OKEY said people should bo ahlo to conduct Native land dealings through the Department instead of through solicitors ami agents at great expense, Tho MINISTER said the policy of the Department had been to closo the shutters clown oh privato transactions in Nativo lands. What they were coming to was tlio disposal of Nativo lands by auction or tender.and in no other way. (Hear, lienr.) Tho first vote of tlio class, Nativo Land Department £2165, was passed without change. The Native Land Court. ■Mr.' ; BAUME, speaking on the vote Nativo Land Court £17,002, criticised the organisa-tion-of the Court, 'awV stated that it would qomniand more confidence if tlio system woro similar to ■ that of tho ordinary judicature, Thero should bo a Supremo Court Judge at the head, aiid there should bo no eauso for anybody to imagine that thero could be any interference with the judicature by tlio head of the-Department or by tho Minister. The MINISTER . said tho last speaker might be theoretically, right, but ho was thero to deal with tho Estimates in a practical mannerl The Court was doing excellent work, and giving general satisfaction. For practical effectiveness ho had yet to hear a suggestion of auythin'g bettor than tho present system. Mr. T. PARATA snid it was formor'ly tho practice to have applications for probato and other matters dealt with by tho Supremo Court, but this was found to bo unsatisfactory, and hence tho establishment of tho Nativo Land Court, by the Act of 1594-. The rosults had been moro satisfactory than the former system. Ho also defended tho Native Department and- said it was tho most important in tho Publio Service, and t-ho vote for -it was not largo enough. ■Mr. lIERRIES agreed with- Mr. Baumo's suggestion for raising tho status of tlio Nativo Land Court. Tho Court did not command general confidence, yet tho judges had very great responsibilities. Tho Chief Judge had powers such as wore not possessed by tho. Chief Justice of tho Dominion. Competent judges could not bo obtained for salaries of £400 and £500 a year. Ho advocated amalgamation of districts enabling salaries of judges to bo raised to £000. They should make it £1000 and tho judgo should live in the. district and bo President of the Native Land Court. Ho did not wish to say anything' derogatory to tlio judges, who wero doing excellent work. Some Strong Criticism.

Mr.. NGATA urgod an increase in the status of tho Native Laild Court Judges, Tho greatest difliculty that oxisted- at the present timo was that there woro not sufficont judges to keep up with the work. Tho present system of adjudication was in the hands of one _ chief judgo and ton puisno judges. Two judges wero ongaged on appellate Court business for the greater part of tho; year, so that thero wore really only eight judges to attend to Native Land' Court matters. Ho referred to tho vast amount of virgin land in tho north which had novor been surveyed. ' Thero were 1,450,000 acres with incomplete titles in tho North Island! Here was work for tho Native. Land Courts, and it had .becomo an acuto problem to the Natives in that there were vast areas which were pointed out by. tho Europeans as waste lands. In reality tho Natives could do nothing with 'these lands.for tho simple reason thai; tho titles wore unallotted and incomplete. This fact demonstrated tho need for tho appointment of moro judgos, oven if only of a temporary character. In Wellington and Hawke's Bay they wore undor the individualisation system, which presented a most difficult problem. Bettor Court Buildings. While visiting tho various districts ho had been struck with tho poor accommodation for tho Courts' sittings. In Wellington, for instance, tho sittings wore held - in tho " organ loft." Many magistrates' courts had dccent promises, but tho Native Courts had no abiding places. Ho. also said that sittings of the Court in tho north of Auckland district, where over one million acres required administration to enablo it to come on to the market, had to give precedence to the sittings in tho Hawke's Bay and Wellington districts fpr much loss important work. This was because these districts being nearer at hand, had tho car of tho Department'. The Natives in tho far north, though the necessity was so great for court sittings, did not know how to b.ring it about. Mr. Ngata was proceeding further, but his time liinit was reached. Why Redticcri?. Mr. GREENSLADE (Waikato) congratulated tho Native representative on- his remarks. Ho showed that whiie some timo ago tho Chief Judgo 01 tho Native Land Court received £1000 a yoar and 30s. a day travelling allowances, now tho salary was £700 a year and 15s. a day travelling allowances. All the other salaries- of this Department had boen proportionately reduced. He quoted figures to show that similar reductions had taken placo right through the Department.- Whilo this had been done tho

work of the -Department had increased l",v nt bast 150 or 200 per cent. Mr. BATJME, following up lijs previous remarks, said tho Parliamentary Nativo Affairs Committee was practically an Appeal Court. It was constantly called upon to upset tile decisions of tho Appeal Court. It warranted the Cabinet, considering whether tho whole judicial scheme should not ho re-constructed. They had been told that the idea of the Nativo Minister had been to get nd of lawyers and agents, hut in the transactions of the Nativo Court there wero still lawyers employed.. , He. was pleased to hear tho remarks of Mr. Ngata regarding the necessity for opening up Nativo lands in the North. So far ho questioned whether anything had yet been dono towards the settlement of Nativo lands, though this question was of very great importance to tho Dominion. (Hear, hear.) -Mr. POOLE said that some parts of tho North .were paralysed in the matter of settlement owing to tho non-opening of tho Nativo lands there. Statement Wanted. 'Mr. HERRIES thought that after tho remarks made the Native Minister should make some statement. In referring to tho Native Affairs Committee work, ho said that one complaint ho had to make was that very often clausos were put into "washing-up' 1 Bills—clauses that very rarely came before tho Committee. Tho Nativo Affairs Committee always endeavoured, however, to avoid being turned into a Court of Appeal. Hon Carrel! Replies. l'ho NATIVE MINISTER said that lie would ho pleased to accept any suggestions that were practical. Ho agrocd that tho Native judges wero inadequately paid. He showed that they could not got mon such as wero on tho Supreme Court benches to go where tho Nativo judges had to go. They could not, oir'tho other hand, drag 2000 Natives to Wellington, or to big centres. He, as-Minister, could do no more than suggest tho raising the salaries; the rest would have to be done by Parliament. Would his critics help him to got tho money through? Mr. Ngata: Yes. You give us a lead. The Nativo Minister said vory well, he would submit proposals lator on. (Hoar, hear). As to Mr. Baumo's remarks about tho judicial system, would that member suggest a better system? (Hear, hoar.) Mr. Baumo: I could suggest an. outline of a bettor system. A Charge Repelled.

Tho Nativo Minister repelled any charge that tho ear of tho Department could be obtained by people in Hawko's Bay . Ho proceeded that tho Court was'a live institution.- In the last year it had investigated aud settled 14,470 cases, involving millions of pounds. This was a better record than that of tho Supromo Court. Tlio total cost of tho was £17,000 add. Tlio Department, with the. amount it earned, tho • business it did, and the cost of it, would comparo with any other Department. He at tho same tnno agreed that tho officers might bo better paid. But he repudiated any suggestion that tho Court, or its - officials,' were under the influence of tho Administration of the day. . Mr, ,T. ALLEN said that appointments had been mado that would not havo been mado if the salaries had been higher. When poor salaries woro paid tho best men could not. bo obtained. Tlio Minister's remarks constituted tlio strongest argumont for raising tho status and salaries of tho Department. Ho was not speaking of all officers, but of somo cases of which ho knew. ■ Exception Taken. Tho NAT! Vl'] MINISTER ' took' exception to tho statement that they should get better men. Would the member name tho officers or officer who woro. incompetent? Ho recognised that the present officers should bo better paid, but they 'wcro competent and had done good work. Mr. NGATA hoped tho Minister would understand that all they desired to do was to help him. 'Ho had now admitted that tlio Judges should bo hotter paid, and ho hoped ho would see that they were. Mr. Ngata suggested that £2000 should bo added to the'' .yoto 'to ' enahlo tho Chief Judge's salary to bo raised to £900, and that of the other Judges to £Gst) or £700. Two other Judgo3 at least should bo appointed. If there was not sufficient work ahead tlio appointment might bo temporary, As to his remarks regarding Hawko's Bay, if the Minister took oxception to what he (Mr. Ngata)had said, ho might suggest that tlio system of tho Court sittings was- at least defective. Ho suggested a "oircuit" system. There was at least twenty years' work beforo the Nativo Land Court. A higher paid and inoreased stalF would be ■ necessary for- that. period. 110 glad that' tlio Minister had promisod to lncreaso tho staff, raiso tlio salaries of some-of tho'-Judges, and provido bettor accommodation for tho overworked staff. Appellate Court May bo Abolished.

Tho MINISTER said, tho plan'of sending the Court' on circuit would probably bo adopted' in time. Tho necessity of keeping two Judges i'roo for the work of tho Native Appellate Court hampered tho business, and ho might' yet ask Parliament to abolish tho Appellato Court. Every judgment displeased somebody, and owing to the. litigious disposition of tho Maori, and tho facilities for appeal (which greatly exceeded tho facilities in other braiiohcs of tho judicature). Thousands of acres of land were hung up, as it were, and much timo was lost. Ho thought they should return to tho former system, under which tho Chief Judge decided whether a case should bo further investigated. The Courts wore doing very valuable work.

Mr. GREENSLADE enlarged on tho propriety of increasing tho salaries of the Judgos. Tho Nativo Land Commission had dealt with nearly thrco million acres of. land m the North Island, and it would bo necessary to add to the stall' of. Judges so as to enable the Court to cope with tho work that would result. Mr. FIELD also pleaded for higher salaries for the Native Land Court Judges. Ho also urged that some safer placo should bo provided for storago of Nativo Land Court records than tho wooden Government building. The MINISTER said schemes which would provido such accommodation were under consideration. Tho Nativo Land Court voto, £17,002, was passed unaltered, Maori Land Boards. On tho vote of £3542 for Maori Land administration, Mr. HERIUES said tho Land Boards were not adequately staffed. Some Boards woro without a president. The MINISTER said a president would bo appointed for tho Waiariki Board. Changes would, bo made so that the administration would bo separated from the judiciary, but the presidents of Maori Land Boards might bo made sub-commissioners and entrusted with succession business, and possibly partitions. ,llc proposed to amalgamate tho Waikato and Maniapoto districts and tho Aotoa and Ikaroa districts, and 'to appoint some new presidents. Mr. NGA'I'A expressed pleasure at tho changes forecasted. There should be an item on tho Estimates for surveys of Native lands.

Tlio Minister: It will be on tlio Supplementary Estimates. Mr. Ngata: Is it not important enough to appear-on these Estimates? The MINISTER said the lion, moniher should bo satisfied with the assuranco that provision would bo made. Mr. HEIIIUES 'expressed surpriso that there was 110 extra privision to ho mado for tlie staff of. tho Maori Land Boards, in view of the additional work thrown on tho Boards by tho Native Land Settlement Act of last year. Tlio Ministor agreed that there would bo a good-deal of extra work for tho Hoards when tho Nativo Lands Commission's recommendations ennio into effect. Ho had already operated upon former reports of tlio Commission to tlio extent of 211,781 acres— for Europeans and Natives. He expected that by January, when tho work of tlio Commission camo to n close, 110 would have ono and ft half million acres ready to ho operated upon. He submitted * tho following details of leases, direct from Natives to Europeans, which had been approved by tije Nativo Land Boards since 1900:— TairnwhiU, J4O leases involving 65,000 ucrcs; Maniapoto, -110 leases," 224,0110 acres;

Wniariki, 120 leases, 85,197 acres; Waikato, 111 leases, 24,000 acres; Toherau, 143 leases, 77,000 acres; Ikaroa, 90 leases, 94,000 acres; Aotea, 378 leases, 122,833 acres. Tho total vote of this class was put through. Justice Department. The total vote of the Justice Department was £148,957 (last year expended £149,241). During the discussion Mr. Herrics complained that tho details of the Cook Island Administration (total vote £2700) had not been submitted. Mr. LAURENSON said thoro was a strong fooling in tho South that greater benefit should accrue to the Dominion from tho Cook Islands in the matter of fruit. Ho would like an opportunity to discuss tho Cook Islands report when presented. The Hon. J. M'GOWAN said ho would bo pleased to give an opportunity to have tho report discussed. Mr. GIIAY (Christchurch) read a newspaper extract to show that while New Zealand was closer to Fiji than Australia the trado of Sydnoy with that island was increasing, whilo New Zealand's was decreasing. Ho suggested that a little more energy, should be shown by the Minister in charge of the Department, A bettor steamer system was required. The MINISTER said that an inspector was to bo sent to tho -Islands in connection with tho fruit industry. At tho' Miscellaneous Votes in tho Justice Class, Mr. Witty regretted that no provision was made, for Mr. Joliffc,- assistant law draughtsman, for his work in connection with thd statutes revision, labours. He was as much entitled to tho money as the other members of tho Revision Commission, and for whom £1000 was to bo voted. Tho MINISTER replied that Mr. Joliffe had received a salary as secretary to tho Commission. Prisons. On tho item "Prisons," Mr. Wilford asked tho Minister, now tho criminal sessions wore on at Wellington, to visit the colls below tho Supreme Court buildings and seo their condition. Tho Minister promised to do so. Mr. LAURENSON referred to the prison system adopted in Now South Wales, and said that the number of criminals and tho cost of prisons' administration there wore decreasing. Mr. Wilford: They are coming over hero! (Laughter.) Mr. Lnurenson continued that extraordinary results were being obtained in. New South Wales, and ho would like to have the whole matter discussed later. Tho Minister said he would bo willing to have tho discussion. Tho Justice Class was passed. Tho House adjourned at la.m.