THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 262, 29 July 1908, Page 9

THE HOUSE

: A:' MATTER: OF' PRINCIPLE. '.' j'"Th,'e;.;H6.usei, mei> yesterday-at.. 2.30 p.m. . : Tho:''M ..to Z . Comnjittee,' reporting ontho petition of Otau residents for. a- grant of £150:, f6r>,the w-idching/and'.eulverting of -the Otaui/Roadj- expressed the .bpiiiionvtha't the potiti6n: b_e'referr'ed;-.t,0 -the -Govornment forconsideration ."• with-' Certain - recommendations. iJINISTER • said - that since the first..petition ithis'session for assistance, for. roads' and bridges, ;ho Avoiild like to ■ say"aC word; '-:'.Tlie: principle of : petitioning Parliament'for..-grants;of this kind,/and- en-' doavouring, 1 to; obtain 1 ' a 'fayourablo ' report, through a . member; was a -vei;y;rogrettablo one indeed.-; If. ; it .was to obtain, it .would be better for people in all; parts'of*the country to do -likewise. '.'The Government gave the fullest consideration to 'all: requests coming before 'them j/ no; matter - how tlieso,' .requests were made. -'He 'wished to dispel any idea, that,the,recommendations of tho Committee' would :cpnfer .ail advantage upon the particular, request" so dealt- with; ; The Ministry would not; give precedence" [until they'.had conferred : the fullest: consideration, upon a request. -Ho was not trying- to ' prejudice this, particular petitiqn, but: had seized' this oppbrtnntiy—the.first of the session—to tako exception to> tho. "systomj', a-, system which had grown up in tho last fow ,years, and which ho regretted.' " - llr. ;tho- Prime Minister that the-'petitioners,;in:'thi3 case' ! were not trying to obtain any; advantage. They wero simply asking-thrpugh; a, legitimate channel for reasonable; eoiiside'raiion .for their dis.trict. '' had a 'right 'tb'.ap•^alvto';P<«Jia^entl.if/;.sb inclined. -It was surely 'the. ; :busiuoss ; of a'member to, do all lie could to assist a petitioner when a'petition'was given in his. charge. . •*• ' Tho".Prime Minister:' I -don't ..'say:':anything -aboutytliat; /;■"': —•;

Mr. Massey': It would lie. a good-thing if' 'all applications for roads' and grants' wore sent before/the Committee,' with the report of the district responsible engineer. - In this way a chcck would bo provided over the cxpenditufC; tfiat. went on; The,' Prime Minister; assured tho Houso that lie knew nothing about tho presont petition.. , . - lhp Hon.,W. HALL-JONES-.(Minister for Public norks) said there seemed to be a misapprehension as to the manner in which the^-'.applications for grants wero dealt with Evorv application was considered by tho Chief Engineer of the Roads Department. Ho did not think that; there was a single'item on last year's estimates that : had not been recommended by the Engineer. Thero were probably 2000' items on last year's' estimates anil' there were probably another 2000 applications in regard to which no grants could .be made:" There would thus be about 4000 items for tho Committee-to. consider if tlio proposal advocated by Mr.' Massey: wore adopted, i . Tho menibers; of the Committee could not possibly, have -a of the requirements in -all; these,cases.' As to a Public Works 'Committee, the experience '-of New . South Wa!cs:;did 'not.'_afford ;any . enconragemeiit to the* adoption,;of the system in this country. ■

The Hon. J.M'Gowan, Mr. Allen, Mr. Herrios, Mr. Flatinan, and others carried on tho discussion.

■: Mr. FISHER opined that tho making of grants by petition was a mistake. He moved as an amendment tho additional:words "and that in future all petitions relating to expenditure of'piiblio money for roads and ".{bridges and similar public works" shall bo rcferreddirect to the Government." This, lie thought,would dispose of tho annual discussion on this subjcct. Ho also said tho time of; the Committee was wasted by ■ tho number .of; trivial petitions of this naturo which it received. .Tho amendment was scoondetl by Mr. Laurcnson. ... -:T]ie PREMIER said why lie had spoken as ho had was to prevent the people of' the' Dominion boing. misled with tho belief that a.petition to-Parliament-would bear greater weight 'in; applications for roads and bridges. V, The amendment was lost; on -the; voices, and tho motion that tho report lie upon tho tabio was carried. ••• IMPREST SUPPLY; , Tho Imprest.Supply Bill, No. 2, was.introduced fcy Governor's' message. ■ On the motion to go into committee, . Mr; J. ALLEN (Bruce) said he would tako this opportunity to speak on dofenco matters. Referring 'to the British- fleet' ho said Wo, .to a largo oxtont; were deporident on tho" "alliance with Japan, but that could be looked upon more as a '-year-to-year. arrangement.. Wo' might' have to prepare ourselves against oiir ' prosent allies, and this - would appear tlie-moro prolitablo from our presont attitude towards tho coloured races. It would, also bo better to .bo independent of America. Ho-wont' furthor! into naval matters, and deduced that wo as h young-nation' shouldbegin to -make preparations for' tho futuro, •and-••oven.' for doliberato 'attacks'-upon .our shores. -He spoko of tho nocossity of having means to protect our commerce, and showed incidentally that interference' with commerce meant a reaction on tho labourer and tho artisan. Tho. Colonial Conference had suggested an'expeditionary force to assist in a counter-stroke in the-event of a battlo olsewhere. He would not-go as far ; as", that," but ; it was important that wo shoiild do : tho most effootivo .thing; to -protect our'. owii shores. He knew from, personal experience) that gar- ' rison, artillery without a proper field force and proper .coastal defences,, was practically uspless. .' ..- Our .Ports. ; Our ports would, bo refuges: for mercantile marine.-J Auckland' Harbourwould be moro ;—it- would bo a place -whore' battle-ships t'ould enter and. re-equip'.; "Ho .bblioved that: ;.'four .fairly- up-to-date 6.7 guns ■wero,-'at*. present .in the ' Dominion, but we should have. moro of them, for-the proper'' defenco of ,;our 'harbours. Ports of /refuge were an - absolute necessity unless commerce ivas to be destroyed. : Tho. garrison and;field artillery were amongst the : most eftjcieiit corps, in the Dominion, but tho 'recent manoeuvres disclosed. that they wero ; considerably short, of what they , should bo, .A -permanent"'officer for every ■division ,-of garrison artillery , as., adjutant. 'These men", should be exchanged' from timo ; to; titrie -with Imperial- officers in India or elsewhere.' He uplteld tho Volunteer officers always, but .he know! the- Weakness ; of tho system.'.,. /He : '.wouljl like the Minister .for Defenco—he. gave it as a'suggestion—to : decree that. ho young- man should' bo allowed citizenship at twenty-one years of age, unless by that time ho had given a certain period to'his country. - (Hear,'hear.) A youth who would " not do this ,was . not 'worthy of tho -rights of citizenship.;.He would start :tho instruction at:eight.or/nino years. . .

, Mr. M'Lauchlnn : Conscription I . ; Mr. Allen said that..a; half-holiday in a certain period 'could'be giv'en.up for.training purposes. "■ Referring to' the Prime Minister's remarks-at the Colonial . Conference, he said;that business' men ;did not. provide, facilities for young men to. take up. Vqlunteermg/ as they : should.'. .' Volunteers very; -often7, were marked'' men. Government Departments sinned likewise, particularly" the Post' and Telegraph Department.

Supporting '|^^ s ' ; Jlr, T. WILFORD.(Hutt) also spoke of the ! .imp«irtan«teof!fiJ»w'tfgßlih9 ands .field forces in perfect touch with one another. It was necessary' tt> haro facilities : for 'rapidity of'mqbih'satipnj. tg : have corps along tho railway' lines' leading : to the m'aiii • forts, which' cbuld- be , quickly gathered . together. ,: ' These corps:off tlio main line should bo/converted' into : -riflo corps, 'and the' capitation money 'diverted to greater, needs. . Our Probablo Foe. 1 He argued at lengths that events pointed to Germany as our probable foe in the fu-. ture, ; and said he would be strongly in favour of tlio increased contribution to the British 1 navy because' on- thsit ; -.navy : we would -be dependent. . He ■ showed ; tne ; necessity for giving' overy 'encouragement to the Volunteer -.system,- and to . the cadet movement. Volunteers should bo given greater facilities to'obtain leave when necessary'for training. He '.emphasised tho necessity for' efficiency being general ovor tho '■ whole ■ Dominion forco. ■' Mr. : said the ©efence-Council l roporfc was being awaited with tho keenest'.interest since with_the Council'of -Defence'liad come, it was believed, new ideas. He criticised the efficiency "of .'.Volunteer officers, who, iiassed a "tin-pot" examination. Was tlio : transport system in an efficient state,, - and would a force bo complete without it? . Tho same'applied to pur ambulanco. Ho hojedto see , these things - dealt- with 1 in the: report. It was also necessary to.havo a proper supply;rof rifles. 'Ho'supported the''suggestion of tho member for Bruce as to the exchange of •officers from abroad.','lt was absolutely necessary. ;if."'wo were to liavo efficient aridnp-to-date'.vinstruction. •• ■ Ammunition. . factories should; bo' established .in ;both islands.. \:. . Mr.'. MAJOR (Hawera) spoke of our position in tlio general scheme of defence of ,tho' British .'Empire, and; said, that; tlio ■ presont was tho time to .prepare oursolves for oveiitualities. We wero living largely in a fool's paradise." : ' ! " 1 PRIME MINISTER ON DEFENCE. Tho PRIME MINISTER dissented from the "impression that because wo did'not possess submarines and an: elaborate system of coastal defence that .wo .would :be: at tho mercy; of. a hostilo fleet. Thero 'was the British- Navy which, lie was sure,' was. prepared to .'do its •utmost to preserve all parts of the Empire, including .an like New Zea-:.. 'land. . He recognised . tho desire, to see-tho | defonce of the Dominion, in; a;better condition,, but* wo were less than a million peoplo and it would be. impossible, to carry, a big burden. Ho'; recognised also the necessity of 'looking ahead. But so long as tlio alliance with Japan; existed our comnierco .would not be ondangered in the Pacific. There was no need for immediate fear, for that alliance had another seven years to run; and no doubt at its expiration, the same, spirit of : ,wiso. pro-' caution' would . guide,, tho British statesmen as had guided thoso who first entered into the agreement. The.'entente cordialo ,with France was similarly a sign of tho times, and an indication of,wise-forethought on tlio part of the nation in,regard toiler colonies-'and J the protection of them and their commerce. The Naual Subsidy. : :. As to 'tho proposal to increase the naval subsidy, the Prime Minister read tlio following letter which he had forwarded through his Excellency the Governor to tho Homo authorities. " March 16, 1903. i Memo, for his Excellency tho Governor. ,

'"The. Prime Minister presents his compliments and desires that, his Excellency will inform tho Imperial authorities that the New Zealiyid Government proposes to increaso its subsidy .to' tho Australian-New Zealand squadron to the sum of £100,000 per . annum after tho first- of October next. This dato is so fixed in order to give Parliament aji opportunity of ratifying what is now proposed. "Recognising how important it is for tlio protection of the Empiro that tho Navy, should ho at the absoluto disposal of tho Admiralty, your Excellency's advisers do not desiro to suggest any condition as to tlio location of the ships, as they aro confident that tho truest interests of tho peoplo of New Zealand will be.best served by having a powerful Navy under tho independent .control of tlioso responsible for directing it in time of peace or war. What tho Government does feel concerned about is that tho Navy, in whatever part of tho world it may be, should bo under quo control, so that the most- 'tt'cctive results for tho defence of all

portions of -tho Empire may bo assured. . "It may not bo found convenient to alter tho present naval agreement, but tho £60,000 additional proposed will bo paid to tho British Government whether tho agree■ment is altered.or not. If it is considered necessary to alter the present agreement, your Excellency's advisers will be glad to know in what direction this should be done. ■ "J. G. WARD." Ho did not suggest that the amount was oven now adequato, or to bo compared in proportion to the contributions of tho people of Britain. IJii't it' was an appreciation of tho services wo received, and an indication of,.our. good. will. Dofenoe of tho. Ports. Ho also recognised what had been said regarding tho defenco of the four : principal ports.' Lord' Twoedmouth at tho Imperial Conference had suggested, submarines as . tho best means of defenco. . Biit would lion, members attempt ■ to put into practico this suggestion, knowing what it'involved? They would liavo to do' as' best they could with an oyo to the greatest efficicnoy. But tho timo would come when they, would liavo to tread upon neiv paths. This, however, could not bo' yet. While tho wisdom of tho British. statesmen remained—lie-was not refer--ring to any Government—and alliances such ris wo had. for ,t-ho protection of our comniqrco. existed-wo could feel reassured. . Ho had "pointed out at the Imperial Conference tho "internal developmental obligations of this country and'its impossibility to yet. take lip any great' burdens in tho matter.of coastal defence, such, as Australia; for instance, proposed. : : .. . The Volunteers. Ho contrasted tho, lethargy in tho Volunteer movement now-with a few years ago. It would bo better if tliero was moro activity displayed.-, The Government were anxious to have the system as efficient as possible.-.-Mr. Allen's proposal for practically a private soldiery would bo impossible, much private correspondence having convinced tho Promierof this fact. Ho was thoroughly in accord with tho-suggestion to interchange officers, with Imperial ; army officers, and he read suggestions on ..this, head ho had made at tho Imperial : "Conference.-.. He hoped ■to carry tho proposal out. (Hear, hear.) Regarding the allegod-roluctanco in certain quartors to allow men. to take-up-volunteer-ing, ho said the departmental ofheers did all .thoy could to facilitate leave, bitt • tho difficulties in tho way occasionally must bo conceded. Ho assorted also many leading mercantile men had done much to foster the system, though, of courso, thero wero -exceptions. > Tho Future. ' . As.'to the '.future' ,in -tho 'Pacific,. tho fact remained that, the United States .was a great •nation, and was friendly to our..'country, and though somo people 'woiild. discount tlio 'relationship, the interchango of commerce' be-tween-thorn' during, the", past"fiyo years was £733,000,000' worth. It was woll to note this j because:' we .did not know, what the future would briiig'forth in regard to China and- Japan. ' Sir 'Robort Hart's prediction was that' with lier 'awakening China would cry-out in retaliation to tho .white ■ races, "China for the, Chinese:". Though the Government was ndt neglecting' the-'question of dofenco, said the' Prime. Minister; it .could not go as far as somo people would liavo it. MR. MASSEY'S CRITICjiSM. • Mr. MASSEY, speaking on the samo- fnattor; said the Volunteer system .was moro unpopular' than ■ it; had ''boon for many .years, and it was'the duty of. the Couribil of Dofence to-inquire-why-that and-to make the>service popular and efficient. V, Flnanco. ; Referring to financial matters, ho asked for ''a- return showing' tho way our Consols ;liad been'invested,, and whether they wcro re-productive-or'not.- As tq reserve fund securities, .ho alluded to the investment 'of ; tho £800,000 drawn, from tho Post Office, and how this had been done, and said it had not been .'intended the Government' should' traffic in stock. Tho Government should not bo in ,-tbo.position' of a' lstbdk-:br6ker,^VEurtlier.deal-ing m those stocks should ceasd-. There could bo no -profits and'there" 1 might be loss. The only people to profit would be tlioso, who drow commission. W6 c wefe paying "3f per cent., : and not realising more than 3J por cent. Local Borrowing. ' Mr. Massey also wanted tliq_ amount of money /the Government had borrowed from' the Various Government Departments during the last few years. The Primo Minister had paid the amount was one and a'half millions for five years;, but ho had not included half a million ,a" year for five years drawn from the Post Office Savings Bank. This was local'borrowing v and would amount in all,_ with the 1£ million mentioned, to four million in the five years.' . TherPrimo Minister: I won't/'admit' any-. thing of the kind. ' . Agricultural Retirements. ■ Mr. MasSey wanted to know from the Minister for. Agriculture about. .certain.; Totiremeuts." - '-He '-referred; to, tho '.of Mr. Lyons of the Auckland offico'. to; accept a position, in Australia:- ; The Minister had not even asked for reasons for.'.his: resigna-tion-^aJi' 'excellent officer-Hior-\:endca.vo.ured to keep him,. and that despito corrospondenco from himself. (Mr.-.Massey) and Mother; Aucklandora.y.;"He ..referred,;to : -.tho.' fact: that tho colony -'was-,: noiv - -losing the- • services :> of. Mr. Gilrutli, who had .secured an-import ant'position; in. Australia.-. .. ;' : ; OTHER SPEECHES. ' Tlie MINISTER , foir AGRICULTURE (the Hon. 'R. M'Nab),'in' reply,.' said that 'iip to tho present moment Mr. .Gilrutli had not communicated to him the. fact: that lie had had, another position' offered to him. ' "Of course",","added"Mr. M'Nab, ''I,|know everything'. that! has gono on', all,.tlio communications that liavo .gone. on', and tho. circumfjtanceß, but I got it from the man in tho streets Until that officor.'conimunicatos with his intentions'are, 'nothing will bo done by mo in regard to that officer. ' There is no man in this country and no man in this; Assembly "that cannot be ..done withbut. Anyone who works on' tho assumption' that ho cahhot.''he done, without, and that the Department' will run aftor him, should know that the . condition , of' things at tho present time is' not such that tho Government would endorse any action of that.kind." Mr. Herrlcs's Suggestions. , Mr. HERRIES /criticised, tho ' methods of the Minister as revealed by .the.'statement just, made by , him. , If tho head of a. mercantilo houso. heard, that -a number of his 'clerks -were intending'to leave,"he would ask the head of • the particular, department in \vhicli thoy. were employed, to make inouirios fls to, tho . cause. ; Evidently tho Minister Shut, himself up, and did not keep in. touch .with ' . the, lieads. . of the _ Departments, but waited until tlio things that ho knew were likely to happen did actually ' occur. It. was well-known that tho veterinary surgeons. .who were , brought out from England were dissatisfied, with .their salaries, and the ..piatter had been mentioned year after year when the: Estimates camo down.' The' present: Minister's predecessor knew that' there was this dissatisfaction. Ho earnestly hoped that increases would be; proyided , for on the Supplementary Estimates, but "...ho. : thought that if that wero intended tho Minis- ' tor might have let the fact circulate through ! the Department, so as to allay the dissatis-. faction. By. not adopting that method, 'ho had lost the services of valuablo ofiicors.. If ho (Mr. Hcrrics) had been Minister mid had seen such a paragraph as that relating to Mr. Gilrutli, lie would have sent for him at once, but the Minister seome.d to shut, himself- up- like a hermit in his cell, and to rofuse to know anything of what was going on. , 1 . Native Lands. •_ , .' Mr. Herries also expressed regret that,:no reports from the Land Commissioners had been presented this session. Ho believed that not a single acre; of land had yet been opened for European settlement, as a result of tho labours of tlio Commission. The Premier Replies to Mr. Massey. Tho Prime Minister defended himself against the .criticisms of' Mr. Massey in regard : to transactions in securities; ! and quoted the Act giving power to the Colonial

Treasurer to conduct such transactions. Stock had been bought at £800,000, and w.ib now of the faco value of £856,000. They woro bound to get that valuo if they hold tlio stock. Tlio Leader of tho Opposition gentleman had shifted his ground as to borrowing in tho country. Here tlio Premier road an extract from n back number of Hansard to shoiv that Mr. Masse,y had advocated borrowing from tlio Post Of'fico. ' Ministerial crios of "Ohl Oh!" and "That's a clincher!" Mr. Masse.v (looking at tho volumo which tho Premier had handed to him): I'm afraid tho lion, gontloinnn has misquoted mo. . Subsequently, Mr. Mnssoy pointod out that the quotation was ten years ago, and the wholo question was 0110 as to tho prico of money in tlio colony and outsido. It may havo been quito right to borrow within tlio colony ton years ago, but now all tho monov was needed within tho Dominion, and tho settlors had boon inconvonicnced for want of it. Mr. Mas.sey then took tho spoccb quoted by tho Premier; and road further to show that what ho advocated was using tho money of tho Post Office and other departments for advances to settlers. The Bill Passed. . The PRIME MINISTER further explained that tho consols woro shown as interest, and were also shown as part of the public debt. : Tlio Bill passed through all its stages without amendment. SECOND READINGS. Tho Education Amendment Bill (Hon. G. Fowlds), Workers' Compensation-Bill (Hon. ,T. A. Millar), Declaratory Judgments Bill (Hon. R.'M'Nab), Corporations' Contracts Hill (Hon.-R. M'Nab), were read a second time, pro forma, and referred to select committees. CORONERS AMENDMENT BILL. • Tho roport of the Committee of the Whole on tho Coroners Amendment Bill came up for consideration. Mr. J. COLVIN (Bullor) said tho miners wished that all inquests ,on men. killed in minos should be hold before a jury. Tho MINISTER for JUSTICE (Hon. J. M'flowan) said ho would ondeavour to have such a clause inserted in another place. Mr. P.. R. PLATMAN (Goraldine) explained, in order to correct a misapprehension, that ho was in favour of tlio coroner, but not necessarily tho jury, viewing tho body. ' Sir. J. ALLEN (Bruce) suggested ,that if juries were needed in inquests on mining fatalities, they should also bo required in other cases. The amendments were agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time and passed. 1 After receiving tho . Imprest Supply Bill back from the Council, tho House, at 11.45 p.m., adjourned until 2.30 p.m. to-day.