PARLIAMENT.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 256, 22 July 1908, Page 9

PARLIAMENT.

BODfiEr* DEBATE .COKTINUEB.

MR. W. FRASER ON THE SURPLUSTHE MONEY MARKET.;* The Legislative Council did.not,sit yesterday. IntheHouse, the Financial Debate was continued, the: speakers being 'Messrs. T.' K. Sidey,- T. li.' Davoy, PI. J; H. Okey, H. Poland, A..W.. W. Fraser, and A.--\Vi - Hogg.;,.: Ail-interesting feature of. thospeech of Mr. W. Fraser was his demonstration 'of how' tho'-'Minister 'for Finance might, have calculated the surplus about £200,000 moro than tho. sum in the Budget. Mr.Poland dealt interestingly'with tho goldmining industry. Tho: condition of the money; market. within/.Jfche- oountry' received attention from most-of the speakers. - The adjournment .of tho debate was carried at'll. 45 p.mlj 'Mj."Arnold then having the floor. Tho.debate-will be continued this afternoon :' at: 2.30 -o'clock, and the House, as suggested last night by the Prime Minister, will probably sit' iate,in order-that it mayhe., finished. tp-night • or - to-morrow night. . ~ -..••• ;y,-. : ' ; " ■'". '■"/' theJ house. " ' -mi ■' DEBATE ON THE FINANCIAL - ; . When tho House met yesterday :at 2.30 p.m. the: debatecon the -Financial Statement was continued. Mr. T. K., SIDEY (Caversham) congratulated the .Colonial. Treasurer ,on; a; record Budget. Regarding tho"back-blocks .reading proposals, ho thought that seeing £800,000 was being drawh:from the.Consolidated l Fund money could have, been allocated for the purpose without-increasing,tlio. 10an;... (Pealing' with finance^' ho said that; the Ministfir's estimate of the. drop'for tho'wholc.year in Cus-, tom 3 returns,' under tho. new. tariff,, would bo £153,000, and this would seem :to bo an under estimate, since ' tlio 'returns fell'.'£Bo,ooo . in the last quarter—half the'amouiit:of tno estimate. AJcssencd reyenuo was,averted only by tho increaso in: the returns, of t] lo Railway Department,'and. past,experience had shown that, with _ an increase" in , Railway revoiiuo. oanio • an increase iu railv.-ay exp,cnditure. So that little profit was likely to remain as a set .off against the £80,000 decrease. Howthe first quarter's' rctuhis Slight not bo a reliable indication of the gear's operations. He'argued that the' rat'es;of ; taxatioh in tho' Dominion had,, not:.-beeii;,-shown, to have increased.; ', Tliei general .. tendeiiey : of taxation had ..been; tp- re-distribute thb,."burden. , Ho gave returns ; . covering .'-ten. years '. to; support his statement., . , -j: it . Labour. Matters..r;,,. 1 Mr. DAVEY (Chnstchurch' East) ' directed' his' opening .remarks -against'• Dr. .Chapplo's theories regarding the' ; , Arbitration Act and : industrial: nfatfers generally'.' : He", disagreed with tho dictuni that' combination' of workers was against'tho best'interests "of tho Stato. Competition,-'" history told us, ' had led' to greater abuses in' the past'.'' He agreed v/itli the, suggestion that when prbfits went down owing to -market' fluctuations tho 'Arbitration Court should bo able to make a slieht reductionin wages,;but lie also thought "that if E rices went up,' tho-'workers' should get sonio enefit." He' combatted Dr.' 1 Gliapple's suggestion that while strikes should' not bo forbidden Unions should not be, allowed to use their funds for "providing' strike pay. "Ho objected strongly to tlio idea that men who went on strike'should-be forced 1 ; to submit by starvation:of themselves and -their families. He. also, differed .from, the -member,for Tuapeka on; the.- question,' of piece-work-.,-,.-'.The-, men: preferred-,." stab"- wages, meailirig .an establi4hed.wag6,;.'and ho-believed better work was done.; sunder - that .isystem/.tlmn -under' piece-work. — . • - -. The Land Question.'; • , . " " Referring- to land' matters, Mr. Davey said tliat,.a■ returnHprcsent'ed ; by.,tho Minister/for' 'Lands.-.showed ,that a surprising- number of settlers on tho Culvor'den'Estate had considerable capital. Ono had as - much as' £8000, and. a largo-number had £2000 and over. . The system under which .this was dono was'-not. tlie pbor'man 'to. get on the land, but helping ;.tlio rich :man'to exploit it. If the Government would bring-' dovVii an amendment' of tho law to femedy:,this mat-', ter, "he believed' the Houso lvould support it.. / (Hear, - hear.) , • Tho. Leader of the Opposition had said it would ,cost £100 more' under- the last tariff to erect and establish a dairy factory; but; Mr. 'Massey had not cared about ;tho : boiler-makers of New. Zealand, wdio were protected : by tho tariff.. He asserted tho Liberal Government had dono more for Labour than a Labour Government could have dono. The intelligent labour in tho country .recognised this. ■ It was the agitator—the;,mail on the platform with a red. tie-Twlio 'said- otherwise".' ' ; " . Dr.' CHAPPLE (Tuapeka) denied that' he had; said that a combination of workers was against tho best interests of - the State,' as said by tho.previous speaker. The Member for Taranaki. . ' Mr. OKEY (Taranaki), speaking of the' public debt and .the loan policy, that the. people.should be takoii moro into, the confidence of the Government.- He thought tho. Government should- graAt ; the -freehold to settlers under, tho-'. Lands - for ".Settlement Act, and this would provide/ a fund which would reduco the borrowing. He dealt at length with'back-blocks.-'matters: " 1 '. Native Lands. . 1 , Referring' to-Native lands, he 'said Taranaki. was largely affected by' the question;' :If a whole i session "could'bo"devoted to' the matter it would' pay tho -Dominion. Tho Undcr-Secretaryi;seemed,;to : 'have no' power, and every Judgo of the' Native Land' Court' appeared to "go on his own." The head of the Department- w-as-'nOt dealing with this very important matter-as he'should. Tho Lands Department, wanted livening .up. Sometimes two: or threo months clansed before loans applied for wero oxecuted. Last year tho sum, of. £5124 was paid as compensation for the slaughter, of diseased cattlethis was. very-small, and a better system of valuing diseased cattlo would induco people to bring forward animals of this class. . . Mining Matters. Mr. H. POLAND (Ohinemuri) dealt with gold mining matters. • The industry, which was, second ...only'in importance to the agricultural and. pastoral industry, > was not in as satisfactory a condition : as it might bo. The .industry should be fostered to a greater extent. The, Geological Department had doiie excellent work, and its operations might be made of still great-er value' if a practical prospector and mineralogist .followed in tho wake of the survey parties. Immediate results would'then bo obtained. 'The Waihi mine was the second in importance in tho world, and it was possible to discover others ■squally as rich._ , Sufficient. encouragement, bad not beeh given to the prospector. and : be hoped tho, Minister would bring m an amendment;.in 'his. new'. Act. conferring, moro liberal treatment of men pegging out now fields. He . advocated the establishment ofan up-to-date battery, say, "at Ohinemuri. Last 'year in aids to jirospectors, £3000 was spent, and it would bo money well spent if £20,000 wore spent in State prospecting. Every mineral deposit discovered should bo reported upon by a Government export. State Cc?.l Mina. Mr. Poland advocated a State coal mino for tho North Island, stating the prico of coal in this 'Island' had';risen from 6s. to 6s. 6d. per ton in recent years, and there was no reason for this. Mr. . Poland dealt at length with the teaching profession, and urged the necessity for revising tho salaries, particularly of primary school teachers. He contended tho Government had greeted houses too costly for workers' dwellings, and tho ront was boyond'tlio bona fide working man. Ho specially referred to the Coromandel

Street dwellings. ' Ho eulogised tho administration of tno Advances to Settlers and Advances to Workers Departments. If delay,' as a previous speaker had said, was taking placo in tho recoipt of advances, tho cause'was with tho applicant or.tho Valuation Department'. Tho superintendent was doing his. best to get rid of red-tapeism., (Hear, hear.) Ho urged that tho construction of tho East '.Coast railway lie started from Waihi as well as from Gisbo'rno. The Member for Hurunui. * 1 ' Mr. A. W. RUTHERFORD (Hurunui) expressed pleasure at tho progress being mado .by, : tho Maori race, and spoke hopefully of their future. Ho strongly disapproved of tho idea of training Maori girls to bo domestic : servants. • The' increase of tho naval subsidy had his lioarty support. It would moan only 2s.'por head of our population, and he x would gladly havo supported a creator increase if it had been proposed. Ho thought that.tho.land defences of the country needed to bo .greatly improved. Mr. Rutherfordnext eulogised tho advances to settlors system. The Workers' Dwellings Act had proved a failure, as he and others, foresaw, though they wero compelled by tho lato Premier's tactics to voto for it. The Advances to Workors' Act, on tho other hand, was very,' satisfactory for all concerned. The increased sum to bo devoted to roads and bridges had his approval, especially as ho hoped to got a cut-out of it for tho Waiau Bridge. (Laughter.) Rewards for Labour Leaders.. , ! He believed Labour had received more from tho Liberal party than it could havo obtained by independent political'action. Ho had noticed that Labour leaders, or Labour agitators,' as somo might call them,, wero sometimes given Government billets or seats in the Upper House. - If the idea was to pay them off as soon, as they made themselves objectionable, it would encourage that sort" of thing. There would bo a dozen wait-, ing for the position of the one who was removed. .They wore like blow-flies—when you beat them off, others: came in their place. (Laughter.) ■ In regard to land for settlements, lie supported preference 1 to, employees.' ,Ho. also advocated cutting'up tho estates into small blocks so'as to let tho true working, man got du tho laiid. Ho discussed tho land ballots a3 a Government' gamble, infinitely moro at-, tractivo than Tattersall's. Ho approved of i tho special settlement schemo outlined in tho Budget. Mr'.' Laurenson's statement as to a united effort oil the-part of financiers to. tako advantage of recent economic circumstances and force up the price of money was referred to, and Mr. Rutlierford quoted the ■banking, returns-to. refute it, declaring that there was, merely a shortage of money caused by tlio'action of the law of supply and , demand. , He had been very sorry to hear the remarks of Mr. Wilford in opposition to the steps/ that were being taken, to (entertain the American fleet. Blemishes.on a.Good Record. . Mr. W. ERASER (Wakatipu) said ho often wondered whether he would,evor road a plain, unvarnished story of the finances of this country from - a Minister for Financo in- his Budget or on:tho.public platform. The present Financial Statement had its fairy tales, —savings that wore no savings, profits that wore quite illusory, paying off tho debentures only achieved by' issuing new ones for tho sauio amount. They were told in this Budget of.raising, money' without increasing ■ tho public debt." But these wero merely blem-. ishes on New Zealand's record of unexampled prosperity.. Ho admitted that the surplus was £767,849, but lie could show how, tho -Treasurer could have made it nearly £200,000 more. He did-, not say ho ought to havo done so. Subject, . to tho fact, that they had not. got full information, so that there might bo items debited to Public Works that ought ..'.'to appear olsewhcro, ho would admit that this surplus was a real excess of revenue Over expenditure. Tho liabilities at tho end of . tho, year exceeded, -thoso at tho beginning by £46,901. That would reduce tlie ■ surplus to £720;948.. Next, £150,000, which had been taken.'to pay off Treasury bills, and which-was hot an,essential charge on--the revenue, could be added •, to the could'■ .also add '£82,175, which was added to/ tho. surplus of the. previous year'to make. up' tlio £800,000' transferred to Public Works Fund,: It rarely happened that the wholo of tho surplus was transferred to. tlio Public Works. Fund, but lust year, more than:the surplus was trans-, forred.' , Adding togethor" these, sums of £82,175, ' £150,000, and £720,000, they got the total'of £953,123, as . the 'whole of tho oxcess'of revenuo oyer administrative expen-, diture, or the surplus. He did not say tho Minister for Finance should have done this, but it would havo been difficult'to take exception to it; : ' ' Borrowed Money. • ■ > ' ■ At the', saino timo- they must not .forget that wo wore not living; within' our means. The' revenue was' increased by borrowed money,, though this did not go direct into tho Consolidated Fund. The spending power of the people was increased by.tho distribu-, tion of this borrowed money, and; thcreforo, 1 •a larger .amount-of taxation was) collected' through the' Customs. He estimated'that,' tho revenue received a fictitious increase of a; quarter of a million a 'year by this means. They | ought to - remember - that when they uttered ■ their glorious . "anticipations of tho. future, becauso tho borrowing would have to stop somo , day. '. In regard to tho Imperial guarantee debentures, /Mr. Eraser, said that in exchanging our,.own securities for gilt-' edged securities', wo must.oxpect.to lqso some-, tiling; but .ho .considered that the Government had made a good bargain,, but by : waj of lagain heaping coals of fire on the Goverhmont's head, ho would say that tho interest was £3 6s. 6d., instead, of £3 ss. as stated in tho Budget. No Groyeilihs Before America. The; Government should bring down a schemo for. thoroughly prospecting the country, for minerals. Ho approved of tho increase of tlio: naval subsidy. In regard to tho American fleot, he had been sorry to notice the tone of some of the remarks mado, during'the debate. Wo ought not to grovel before our visitors, and say that John Bull was too old and, feeble to help us, and that: wo must look to them to protect us against tho yellow peoples. He hoped none of those grovelling, speeches, would be mado at Auckland. ■ Tho House should intimate that it' did not. want anything of that kind. Wo should welcome them gladly. as tho representatives of a nation millions of whose people .wero. of the same race as oursolves, but Deyond,that lie did not think anything else .should bo said. ... Freehold 'Settlement.' Ho did not seo how more money could bo found for advances to settlors, and loans to local bodies,, as: well as guaranteeing tho loans' of individuals under the new special settlement scheme, without. increasing tho pu'olio debt. The public creditor would know well. enough that a guarantee of a mortgage was equivalent to a liability. A much bettor plan would bo to buy large estates, cut them up, :■ and sell them in fee simple. Ho know tho Government would not do that, and therefore ho would support the new proposal, though it was an underhand method—(Hon. J. M'Gowan: Oh! oh!) 1 —for it would deceive nobody. Mr. Eraser went, on to advocate tho prosecution of rail: -ways and irrigation works in Otago. Ho denied _ Mr. Laurenson's statement as to acapitalistic conspiracy to forco up tho price of money. There was a scarcity due to quito other causes. Socialism. Mr. Frasor was heckled considorably by Messrs. Laurenson and Tanner with quoa. tions regarding Socialism. Mr. Fraser emerged with tho clinching statement that tho true function of the Stato was to control, and improve, and not to possess. (Hear, hear.) Tlio railways wero, State-owned in order that individuals—tho farmer for instance. —might bo benefited. Ho assorted that tho framers of tho schedule of tho Shearers' Accommodation Bill could havo had \-ery little- knowledge of country life.. As to the country's financial position ho had no doubt as to. our ability to moot our engagements in the future. But it must bo remembered that the prosperity shown in tho Budget reached only to March 31 last. Sinco then wool and other produce had fallen low in prico. Tliero was need for caution. Those who had laid bare the true state of affairs

and advocated caution had been disparaged and abused all ovor the Dominion; but it was easier to ovcrcomo difficulties by facing thorn openly and manfully, than by pretending that they did not exist. (Applause.) " No Scarcity of Monay." Mr. A W. HOGG (Masterton) contended Mr. Eraser's irrigation proposals wero Socialism—the benefiting of a few at the expense of tho State. Dr. Chapple: It is the Crown's own land. Mr. Hogg said there was no scarcity of money in tho country. It was tho " screwpress" of the money-lenders—high rates, etc.—-tlmt was rendering it difficult to obtain loans. Wo talked'about our debt of 66 millions; but what about our. assets? None of tiio money borrowed \ was being spent extravagantly. Ho referred at some length to the present Government's services .to tho Dominion. He contended, inter alia, that Stato coal depots should be established all over tho Dominion. Referring to Secret Commissions, he asserted that the Dominion was under the heel of a powerful shipping ring, which worked tlio. rebate system, and. compelled exporters to ship wool and other produce by certain ships. This was-shown by tho fact that tho freight, charges from, hero to .Europe were higher than from tho Commonwealth. It was the duty of tho Government to break down tho monopoly. Mr. Hogg concluded by a brief reference to railway men's grievances, tho time-limit interrupting him. Tho adjournment of the debate was then (11.45) moved by Mr. Arnold and' carried. The PRIME MINISTER suggested that the House sit later to-night in order to finish the debate to-night or-tho following night. . The debate will bo continued at 2.30 this afternoon. Tho Ministerial replies to questions, which are usually debated on Wednesday ' afternoon, will be merely circulated, and a later opportunity will he given for the debate upon them. NEWS AND NOTES. CHLORODYNE. ; The movement, in Parliament to restrict the sale of chlorodyne has resulted in Mr. T. Wilford, ono of tho movers, receiving a pathetic letter from a Napier resident, 'i'hq writer _hopes_ that everything will bo dono to "wipe this curso out of New Zealand." His case, ho said, was that of many others. His wife was addicted to tho drug, and as a result, after thirty years spent in getting a homo together, ho :lmd been involved in trouble, and,had had to mortgage his property. He had tried every remedy under the .sun. Tho victims of tho drug suffered from "all sorts of imaginings, and- took their husbands to' Court." "My wife," he concludes, " lies in front of mo almost at death's door, filled up. with' chlorodyne. I don't know the minute she may pass away. In God's name do your utmost for the sake ■of humanity." THE UNITED STATES FLEET. Mr. F. R. Flatman (Geraldine) yesterday drew attention : to a paragraph which appeared in Monday's issuo of the Dominion stating that since members had discovered that the Government did not intend to pay their expenses when visiting Auckland for Elect Week, a number of them had abandoned the intention of making tho 'trip, and that there was somo talk of a deputation to the-Premier on the;subject. ,Mr. Flatman said lie would liko.to'khow from tho Premier whether . the paragraph Was correct, and whothor lie had been asked to recoive a deputation on the subject. The Primo Minister (Sir Joseph AVard) replied:."l would suggest to the lion, member not to attach too much . importance to statements \\diioh ho sees in tho Press, especially a section of tho Press which chiefly endeavours' to put tho' Government and the Government party in the worst possible light. vNo members havo interviewed mo on this subject, nor mado any suggestion to ino, nor havo I been asked to recoive a deputation. I am sure it was never contemplated or suggested by members that their exponsos should bo paid, and I believe there is . not a member in the House who would' accept it, if such an improper proposal wore made." lii this .connection, it only remains to bo stated that the information contained in our paragraph as referred to above reached us from more than ono reliable sourco, and was .corroborated in a convincing manner. In rogard'to the suggested deputation, our. paragraph stated merely that there was "somo. talk" of a deputation, and that statement was correct. .... 1 The Defence Department's report may he down at an early date. Tho Primo Minister told Mr. J. Allen . yesterday that • tho report had been drawn up and the Government wero only waiting for it to be printed. James John'Clark, of Wellington., captain in the New Zealand Militia, and formerly of the Ninth Contingent, is agaiii petitioning Parliament for payment for services in tho Commandant's office of tho Defenco department, Wellington, in 1902 and 1 1903. About 5150 acres of the_ Mangoira • Stato. Forest Reserve, in the Wellington Land District, . are proposed to be' withdrawn ■from reservation, and thrown.open for settlement. It is stated that'the timber is small, and of tio value for milling. ' Would it not be a fair thing, Mr. Field is asking the Minister for Railways, to grant free passes to • Auckland- and back on tho railways to Mayors of towns and their wives who have received invitations to assist in extending hospitality to tho American fleot? Mr. Izard wants all letters and papers in connection with tho arrest and conviction of Ferris, Sinclair,, and Hamilton, convicted in, Wellington in • August last, laid upon 'tho table of the House. Yesterday. Mr. Flatman quoted from The Dominion a remark by Mr. Thorn at a political meeting on Sunday night' "that Mr! David Jones, a - Canterbury' farmer, had stated that the Hon. J. A. Millar told him -the Agricultural n,Labourers' Accommodation Act-would not . bo'enforced because it would operate over so large an area." Mr. Flatman asked whether tho report was correct.' Tho Minister: The report is absolutely in-' correct. He had informed those who had made an inquiry that the matter was difficult to deal with, but tho necessary regulations, were under considera.tioh. Ho had no recdlection of having had any conversation, with Mr. Jones, except when tho latrter was before the Labour Bills Committee. _ "Tliero is no future for any man engaged in mining—no chance to mako a competency for his declining years."—Mr. Poole. Very convinced indeed is. Mr. Rutherford of tho' exceeding cleverness of tho Maori. "Look at their heads," said ho last night. "Amongst Europeans you can seo ability in their heads. His. Honour tho Chief Justice— if ho will pardon the reference—has a very fine shaped head." Ho drew attention to tho very fine shapo of some of tho heads-of tho Natives. Mr. .Rutherford entered an emphatic protest against_ the suggestion to make tho members of this fmo race domestic servants to Europeans.' Three tinios last ovening. Mr. A. W. Hogg (Masterton) used tho metaphor that tho Public Works Department was like tho bounteous rain which was distributed impartially all over tho country, and fell upon tho grass and made it grow. ( ' A valuablo collection of water-colour drawings, oil paintings, and proof otoliings, selected in England and Europe by Mrs. Fletcher Johnston, will bo sold by auction at the rooms of Messrs. W. H. Turnbull and Co., on Thursday, July 30.. Tho Hutt School Committee mot last evoning, when the Education Board was requisitioned for an extra grant for cleaning purposes. This was rendered necessary by tho necessity of having tho children housed in two temporary buildings outside tho proscnt permanent school. Permission'was granted to allow grazing on the pasture in tho school grounds. Accounts to the amount of ;E22 .fs. 7d. were passed-for. payment. Mr. A. Wcbloy, who had tondcred his resignation on account of business pressure, consented to withdraw it.