THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 253, 18 July 1908, Page 7

THE HOUSE.

. ROMAN CATHOLIC ARCHBISHOP j Tlio Houso ■■mot at 2.30 p.m. i . i Mr. ;C. H. IZARD • {Wellington!'--North) i movod ■ the second reading' of the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Wellington Empowering Bill. Mr. . liard, 6aid that one of tho ; sections of'land proposed: to' be dealt. with undor the. Bill was situated in ' Boulcott Street'.The school thereon built was unsuitable for'tho purpose, of tho archdiocese, and ■ j it was desired to sell, tho proporty, and erect . two soliools, oho at'tho north and tho other •at the south end ; of tlio city. Tho second i portion of land : was that vested in' tho. Archbishop for . cembtery / purposes, and which, owing to tho Cemeteries Act, could not ho used for its original object. ' ■ Tho- second reading was „ carried without •'debate. FARRIERS' BILL. Loavo was granted Mr.-Major (Hawora) towithdraw the :Farrieb"BiH.-;-.b'. >. : ■ ; ->ojv.jiir - - - ■■:!.! jai-vl'iiii . i. : THE FINANCIAL DEBATE. i The (Jebat'o, on the Financial Statement was' continued.,. / Mr.' F. M. B. FISHEE-'OVellirig'ton Cefl-' , tral) congratulated tho Colonial Treasurer on : his Budget. He proceeded to defend tho . Leader of tho Opposition from tho attacks j made upon.him ; by Mr. G.. Lauronsori ,tho. previous evening*.' '.Mr.. Massoy had been, ] jeered at on ,the; floor .of :the. House, and yot : j had como up smiling evcrytime. Thoy.said ( -give .him-.tho courtesy. they always. gavo.to't the mari./wbo fought fairly ! and squarely. l j (Hear,! hear.) i. Ho hoped ' every mdmbcr of ; tho Houso woiild oxtehd,to Mr. : Masscy fair, recognition of' liis". fighting qualities/ (Hear," j hear.). He ; said this ..though .ho was not;! able to see oye to.oye in everything with tHe j \ Leader of the Opposition. .'! ' | Tho American Float. Referring to the visit of . tlio American , j -fleet,' lib .said he,did hot go as far., as tho- y 'member 'for.. Hutt, but he-was .against ad- .1 . journing Parliament.': He asserted Amorica' .; had placed an equivalent'to a poll-tax upon' < every visitor.to-her shores.--" ■ ■'."' ; j Mr. Poolo : A! two-dollar war-tax.! :■ - :' -'V' . i Flnanco. 1 Dealing with fihanco 110 said that not more ( than 66 per coht., of the New Zealand money was reproductive. present administra- ( tion was 'not ,responsible for. this, he would. ( .agree—it ' was duo to past administration.. ; lint' 90' per cent, of!tho Victorian monoy was j reproductive £1,014,000 had also been',paid. t olf ill.Victoria on a loan matured. He asked ■ how was it that tho more prosperous the "j country became, tho greater became tho taxation? What was behind it 'all?' The art { of successful government was to increase tho margin between - the cost of living and the j amount; of wages earned. We were, falling ; short : of ..'that' because .wo were 1 increasing j the. debt; and the :Primo -Minister might be , literally correct in stating we.wore-not iiir ;, creasing tho burden of-taxation,;'but the j right was: was the burdon on tho "j taxpayers; boing -reduced?''Tho prosperity of : the' Dominion was not being reflected in' a •the/individu'al prosperity of tho masses; ' The' ' Primo Minister at Tauranga was reported as' 'j having said that ."but for .the'fact that ] last year tho Dominion had borrowed 0110 [ million of money, tho financial year just j about, to close would havo been , one of the a .most successful over experienced. As it \ ■was tlioy started next year with a surplus of j £760,000." Why was it-'they now went on. \ .tho market for a million loan, .and yet had ended up with a surplus? This was certainly : f not the .methods adopted elsewhere. .He did not suggost that our finances wore unsafe, f but what ho. said was:' could the position not. be improved ? ; Monoy. could not."bo" r.e- ( productive if spent on such mediums as tho Uunedin'Railway station, .the Auckland, postoffici, tho Midland Railway, and in other \ ways. ' - ■ " .■ :• . ' Customs. •. He declared. thoro had been ho apprcci- j able .concessions in customs' taxation,'! though • tlie Government's revision. -was", prophesied to * have;that cffcct;_ He asserted that .by taking s olf the duty on keroseno they had given tho 1 ■trade of the Dominion, into tlio hands'of tlio' Standard Oil Company (Hoar,.hear), and tho; price still remained Is. Id. ."There, was rio .; difference to the taxpayer—the only altera- .{ tion from the old position was that the -1 Trust collected tho tax and didn't hand it ( over for the country's use. (Hear, hear.) ] Land • Legislation. • ' Regarding land legislation, ho said tho un- 1 improved and capital values had gone up in. i fivo years by £81,000,000, according to figures 1 supplied by the Registrar-General: He gave ; instances to show that tho values were fic- 1 titious, and ho urged that there should bo > a revision,-not of tho values, but of tho ( valuers. He wished to point out that whilo a Civil Service cadot could not riso beyond | £200 unless he passed the Senior Civil Servioo Examination, a temporary clerk of fivo years' servico could now become permanent ' and dorivo full benefits. Ho sdvocatcd moro 1 sottloment of the bush lands, and less land : for settlement. ] The Minister for Lands: Do you suggest < the'bush hinds should be put into tho mar- ;( kot ruaardless of • timbor supplies? 1 Mr. Fisher prophosied that as the result 1 of fictitious values when lean years como 1

- 'rents of lands for settlement settlers would t havo to be reduced, and in the end it would ) moan tho concession of tho freehold. As to ' tho post-audit system, ho approved of tho I proposal, and thought tlio Leader of tho Op- ) position could not have well thought out his I objections. Ho did not desire to d-epreciato ) ■ tho work of tho Minister for Railways, but I ho asked could not the railways ba mado i nioro efficient? Mr. Fisher was proceeding' I. to urge tlio extension 'of tho' suburban area ■ to a twenty-five mile limit— [. Hon. Hall-Jones: Havo you rcadtka Rail- ,-. ways Statement ? . . Mr. I'isher confessed ho had not. (Laugh- ■ 'or.) I Tlio Minister: It was there proposed to 1 oxtend the area as asked. (Laughter.) . ' Mr. Fishor showed that in Now South Wales a worker could travel 120 miles a day ! for 4d. (Laughter.) Mr. Hornaby's Remarh?. , Mr. HORNSBY (Wairarapa) congratulated Mr.' Fishor upon his speech, and his loftier tone towards tho Government than formerly. Ho went on to justify the statement that tlio prosperity of the country was due to the Liboral party. Ho said some years ago some gentlemen opposed to that party had ondeavoured'to, discredit the financial position .of tho country in London. ' Ho declared that thero wero opponents of tho Government who were spending liugo sums of money.'for the destruction of tho. Liberal party. . He went on to say that a nowspapcr had been started -in- Wellington -to ..publish—what?-7-anything. that .would 'discredit tho.outsido namo of Now Zealand.; A newspaper."produced', in.; prejudice,- - brought forth in jaundice, cradled-in selfishness, and- ' maintained for the fell purpose of damnifying, this country. (Laughter.) Tho small had been alarmed, 'and needlessly,,bv the doctrines of tho Opposition. Everything which could be . done to' help that dags had been done. As to Mr. Allen's cry of ."■'electioneering," it should be made illegal , for a rich mail when coquetting 1 for parlia■'mentary. honours to bo able to do all .sorts of' things with his wealth for the purpose' :of bribing a constituency. A little before last election a kirk was -built in his constituency, and tho farmers said it would have ,bben hotter if the donor had- built a butter factory. . Mr. Mandor: The Government do. it everyday! ; - ; . Mr. Hornsby:" Tho Government make' grants for the. benefit of tho whole com-; ,munity v Tho Advances, to Settlors office had .been'a. great- boon to the country. It; [Was tho best watch-dog and protection tho ;'sniall farmer had against tlio avarico of tho Ho said, there/ wero: inclica-' 'tiima that soon tho sugar combine'was likely to raiso. the prico of sugar, and-if so the benefit of],tho £200,000 concession of tho'last.' tariff revision would bo denied the people. This money might well have been spent on ' joads and bridges. Regarding the. visit of tbo Amorican Fleet, Mr. Hornsby thought it 'hotter to bo friends with.'.America, The] ■Pacific, lie said, was deserted by the : British ■fleets, and wo were handed over.to tho Japs. : •Laughter and banter interrupted Mr. Horns-, by,"and.he retorted that Britain had only-a few tin cans floating about the' Pacific, for all tho best battleships had been taken away. The Industrial Question. Dr. CHAPPLIi (Tuapoka) directed his ro'mar&s principally to tlio Arbitration Act. lie said too much 'consideration had beon ; given to the., workers anil'tho employors' as' tlio dominant parties in tho industrial question, and it now became a matter for the. whole democracy to decide what was in tiio' : best interests ot 'tho 'country. ; -Mr... Arnold: If ■ thoy understand. it 1 ■' ■.. :$ > Dr. Chapplo: ;lt is for to. say , ffliat; is. in • the .' best and- truest • interests of" the \ democracy. The question should, be - taken away from the workers and'' omployors and settled.apart-from them. _ Tho Ulackbtill strike episodo had beoh a triumph for tho ■Arbitration. Act;, and why? A strike to bo 'successful must-bo universal; and despite tho ■ cft'oi'ts of agitators .all over -the' country, other.unions took,refugo in'tho Arbitration : Act,. and; a universal striko'- failed. Tho .Trades Council,in Puncdin.had.takoii ;rofugo i , iri the Act' when; tho.'.bakers'had tried (o ■ get them to join them.'. As.long as'tho Act.': could confine strikes- to limits, it fulfilled its higher functions'.- ; Tho time would come' 1 : when the "Act,''eveil' if "it' remained unaltered.would gain'-; mora respect, and . would strengthen as time went on. Thobakors at Wellington had tried to got the drivers out, aiid had .failed. Ho protested that tho Act. had'not broken down-becnuso. olio small section of itho; workers had-struck in dofiancq oftho law> \lt had also not raised tho prico of' i living. The substitution of combination for competition had raised the prico of living. Tho. substitution, lie declared, was-bad, and. combinations . all , round ' . had rosulted in : Oxalted " prices. ; Thero .wore clause's ..in . ; tho- : Act calling for amendment. ..Tho'want'.of ex-, perts had,made.awards ridiculous; -'Ho.-siig-. 1 gested the appointment of special .boards ou tho lines' of ;MrV "Millar's proposals. '•; What.' hotter could thoy-have?-"' ' ■ Mr. Davoy : The workers'object. Dr..-Chappie: •Ho had., already said, the ' matter ,■ must, bo' takenaway fromj.,-the ; and employers. ■ v , ;•; q, ' / i Mr.. Arnold: And.'go on theory? ■' _. Dr.,v Chappie: L havo 'been . gathering evidenco for year's .past,_ arid-'as the/result of that I .give-you my.-opinions. V Awards arid Prices. .. . ... v Ho considered that Conciliation Boards, or Councils of Conciliation, wore usoless, and should bo swopt away. Ir tho work of'the > Court was too heavy, there should; bi>-two ; Courts, each dealing with ocrtain specified ) industries. Breaches of awards should! come 1 -'before, the Magistrate's Courts. . Awards i should bp-flexible, .so as to meet'fluctuations 1 of tho . markets, such'.as 'the late" fall in i flax. ; ;Mr. Tanner: What about prices going up? ; Up? ' ' - • •:1 i '' Dr. Chappie:,, Tho objoct of arbitration is to fix a living' wago. . , f ( Mr. Tolland: And when prices are low, tho men must work for loss than a Jiving i wage? ;\Dr. Chappie : ' No , industry- that • cannot - 1 nay a living ■ wage should continue to exist. •? Mr.'' Arnold: How about 'manufacturers '1 who'get' out price-lists. six or, nine monthsahead? • ; ' ' Dr. Chappie: That's a detail, for the Arbitration' Board. (Laughter.)' Ho': be- I lioved, that the'' rjfehfe to"strike'-should!-not j be taken away, but Unions; should not b'e-'al- i lowed 'to. use their 'funds'.'for the purpose,- .( and aiding,and abetting'by other Unions or 1 by the Press should bo stopped. A strike l could not livo unless the strikers i wero' fed 1 by aiders and abettors. ■ ] - Mr. Tannei: : Would you seal up the i 'founts'of human sympathy? (Laughter.) Dr.. Chappie: No, I would enlarge, the founts of human sympathy. . ■ Compulsory Unionism. J ' Everyman employed in any trado-.should be, ipso 'facto J :;a,.membor- of. the Union,of • that.trade.- ;•,■■■ i ■; Mr. Arnold: Compulsory -TJnidnisml. ■ ( ' Dr.,'Chappie:.Yes. Compulsory unionism is. ( the natural corollary; of compulsory "arbitrar \ tidn.. The present' -system or onifohni^'of. j wages, Dr. Chnpplo continued, was • causing a- decline,'iri national'efficiency. ,- . - ' At; this point the momber was intorrrintcd , by the 5.30 p.m. adjournment. ■ ' ■ Proceeding, at- the . evening sitting;'ho ' stated that the decay of efficiency was hot j peculiar to the. arbitration system; it Was not nearly so apparent in this_ country as in' England, and ho looked to an improved arbitration system to romody'it._- The Arbitra- : tion Court should insist on piece-work wher- < over possible. (Hear, hear.) The good workers, who were in a minority, wanted piece-work. Tho pieco-work rates must' bo based on' a' living wage for' tho amount of work ■- that; could be dons by - normal effort, Mid this amount could easily be ascertained by experiment. Ho'also thought that workers should receive special consideration in rcspcct of technical school certificates. (Applause.) Mr. Horrlos on Flnanoo. j Mr. W. H. HERRIES (Bay of Plenty) said it was sometimes desirable to borrow within the Colony? and sometimes, outsido, < according -to the state of the money market, < He did not bcliove that one tpan who had 1 the- interest of the country at heart would 1 ,doliborately go about injuring its credit, und lie challenged tUe Premier to provo his statements in that connection. • They iiccd not bo afraid of frightening iinanoiers at Homo,who

1 knew moro about tlio finances of Now Zeat land than most of tho members of that 5 House. In regard to the new land sottlo--0 mcnt proposals tlio Opposition claimed that - thoir previous proposals wero substantially 3 tho samo as those or the Budget. He con--3 gratulated tho Government and tho country t -on the present prosperity; everybody was 3 glad of it. Ho .would not say that tho Gov- ;' ernment ,wero wrong in taking credit for it 1 undor. the present political system, but the. credit was' really duo in tho - '.main- to the producers. He contended that only £40,000 of debt was really paid off in ' Pl®P o ' °f tho £56!),000 stated in tho Budget. i'liei money was really redeemed by tho issue > of inscribed stock. Ho also asked why tlio £300,000 ■ invested in gilt-edged ■ securities i was deducted from tho total debt. If tlioso ' securities were to bo used for tho purposo for which they wero intended, they might bo : already pledged.. Another mistake was mado by tho Premier when ho, stated that tho I whole- of tho million guaranteed loan was . paid off, whereas really £800,000 was merely transferred from tlio Commissioners of SinkI ing Funds to tho Post Office and tho Land , for Settlements Investment Fund. The securities in. which tho sinking funds wero invested seemed to have depreciated in vnhio : sinco they wero taken up, as £445,690 of securities (nominal value) shown in tho Land for Settlements Account had boon required to ' pay off £400,000. Stocks at ETomo had, of course, largely depreciated, especially giltedged stocks. Turning.to tho Conversion-Ac-count, he'said .that it seemed to bo a very costly tiling to convert theso loans. It was : doubtful-if we wero not paying too much for tho benefit of posterity. Ho did not seo . >hy loaiis should be converted at a loss long before tlioy'fell due. Ho also thought that the margin of Post. Office Savings Bank deposits over, investments'was too small,-being .only .£7OOO, .though ho admitted that this might bo due jjartly to the purchase of tho £800,000 worth of . gilt-edged securities by drawing upon tho Savings Bank funds. : 'Railway. Administration. The. railway report showed that the railways Tyere not doing so well as in previous years, Tho net oarning per train' mile, one' of the touchstones of success, showed a decrease from 25.7 D ponce of tho previous year, to 27.57 pence. The working oxponses in pro-, .portion to earnings had greatly increased. •There must bo some reason, and it might bo found in the enormous incroaso in tlio cost ;per mile/of open lines. This was only partly to be accounted for by the increased cost of labour and material. A momber.:;What of tho question of'more 'difficult country ?. v'Mrv .Hcrribs' did not, consider .tliat the 'country.',jiow generally worked on .was .moi'e ■difficult'-'than.' that encountered earlier.". The. decrease of 'interest on cost of construction •and the increased cost'-of ; tho railways per ihead of population wero also unfavourable .signs.. The. railways of. the South Island.were falling back, as shown by tho reduced returns of the Hurunui-Bluff section. In this respect the. South compared unfavourably with .tlio North Island. ' ' i 'The HON. J. M'GOWAN said that it, did not matter so .much who made suggestions, 1 but it wan tho Liberal Government who had "given effect to tho suggestions. State Goal Minos. " Speaking-Of: the Stato coal mines, he said that-the Point Elizabeth rriirio had furnished a profit of £15,481 for the past year, and on tlio Soddonvillo mine • there had been a loss of £5580. Tho genoral profit and loss account,' after allowing for depreciation, sink-- : ing; fund, and all expenses, ■ showed a profit of 118440, equal to 8.44 per cent, on tho capital/omployed. Prison Camps.' , Ho' quito admitted that v/hon tho prison 'camps; wero authorised one of the argumonts used in its favour was that it would bo suitable for :first,:offoiidors, but hp personally had' never - Undertaken that it would bo; reserved ■for'first offenders only. Tho prisoners, .who,, after being reported upon, :wero considered worthy,., pf .boing sent to tho prison, camps,■' fweroJ;s'eht.' i: i.hero 'with ail object of giving ,tliem ■ an'''oncouragcment to do better. 'He that some of these men were what 'some peoplo".would term hardened criminals] On the whole, iri spito of all that had been said, 'the numbor of' attempted escapes had not been more'than'four per cent., aiid'there-' 'foro lie claimed that the system had been: a success. , Ho would bo glad to givo all information availablo,. but ho said: "I am absolutely i opposed to- any commission ,of inquiry, as I know what, it means." . ' ,Mr.. STALLWORTHY. (Kaipara) spoke atgreat length on t-lio gum industry. ~Mr, C. H. POOLE (Auckland West) approved of tho Customs remissions, arid hoped tho bonofits would not he absorbed by combinations of capital. Ho advocated keeping a largo stock, of rifles in the Dominion. The debate -was adjournod on tlio motion of Mr. lawry; : : FIRST READINGS. .•The Declaratory Judgments Bill and''tho Corporations Contracts Bill were received from ' tlio .Legislative Council : and road, a' 'first' time. ' , :■ ~ • • The Hciuse rose- at 11.55 p.m.; , : : NEWS'.AND NOTES. ~ : , HATIONAL CAPITAL CITY. . In the House of Roprosentativos. yestorday, Mr. Hpnisby, t-iic member for Waira- 1 rapa, propounded two schemes for-tho build- 1 ing of a national capital.city.'lio would soli ; tho freehold to,, tlio Lands . for Sottlomont 1 farmers, and out of the nionoy so' received 1 thoy would get sufficient, funds to build thoir ' national' capital city. . An hon. member: At whht valuo would 1 you sell?! , ; r ' Jfr.,Hornsby: "At the original value." j This statement was received with a,chorus 1 of ."Alls!"'and "Ohsl" ' i Mr. Poland : You are stealing tho Oppo- 1 sition/policy. , . ' Mr. Mander: We havo no vacant seat for ' him.hero; ' i ; . , ' ' ■' ' ; An hoh..'member:'Would you givo them l tho'freehold in the new'city? - ■ 'Mr." Hornsby : No I j . : ; ■ Mr. Lauronson: Oh, you aro sound thero. Mr. Hornsby: I said a, national city, and . I meant it. Mr. Hornsby then proceeded.to propound another schoiiie'.' .He referred ,to j tho Banking legislation in Canada, which' ' enabled the Govornmerit to; get a perpetual loan of- '£6,000,000 thr6ugh tho guaranteed ] riotoissuo. If wo had State guarautetdfuot-es ' hero wo could, lie said, ( get £1,500,000 of : a perpetual loan, with-,Which, wo• could build ] our national capital city. : — ; 'Mr. Izard will ..ask tljo Minister in charge j of the Printing Offico t'o consider tho possi- , bility of increasing thV salaries of femalo j employees in that establishment. E .Mr. Fisher has givoji notico to move for ) a, 'rotu'rn showing—-(1) 'The total amount re- i ceivcii: by way of grant from Her late 'Majesty £ Queen -Victoria. 1, and ,lior successor ,for tho benefit of- tlie'Nativo peoplo; (2) the-manner t in which'such'grant lias been disposed of. < • Mr... Hogg, -wants' .tljo. Minister for. Public.. ) Health to place tree-planting.'or other suitr- j able employment in tlio open air at the dis- . posal of persons predisposed to consump- J tion. , j The Hon. R. H. „.T; Reeves, M.LiC., was |j yesterday granted three days''leave of ab- t senco. • . | ■ . : 1