HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 31, 31 October 1907, Page 9

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

sini/w;! NATIVE LAND DILL. - ThoTNatjye . Land ..Bill was ..introduced by 'Gp^'eniof's,Message.and.road sLfirst.time in of;; Representatives yesterday aflerndbn. v ? ■ ! said; l that- he .would like to save a "statement from the .Native Minister w to the course that ho proDOsed to follow

in, connection with this Bill. Ho hoped it would bo suit .to tho Nativo Affairs Committee. At the samo time .ho expressed his disappointment ,at ...the fact that, a' Bill of this importance' had been brought down so late in'tho session. It seemed to be tho fate ,ofi all native land bills, to, be brought down at' tho tail end 'of "'the session. It was .grossly.r-unfair,:-to!';the'.native; mombers, as jthey ;Wpuld'not i have-time to consult thoir constituents! in' regard,; to tho alterations 'proposed. ~, He .hoped that, no radiqal, alterations in .the law would :bo proposed at, this lato stage, of the session, as it. was utterly impossible for members to give suclt a measure; the careful consideration that it merited when thoy were, exhausted and figged, and ■when the' remaining time at their disposal was-so' ' 7' •' Not Kept-Back., j ' : l! The (Premier.--. said that it was to ;be re> 'grptted-that: tho. hori. member,; should express opinions;. before: he had seen tho Bill as to tho .alleged delay! It should notbe forgotten that: they\were only,?just. finishing .tlio.Gov--Brhment's iland'legislation|.and to insinuate thatrtho;(Native rLand Bill - had (. been * kept ■back purpbselyi'jW&s.'tO;"suggest what ; .was con- : '.traryr.to fact. He-had announced from the -start that after the Taxation Bill the Laud Bill would bo taken, and that the Endowment Bill and tho Native Land Bill would follow in that 'order; This had not- been 'departed., from;, (n a.tsingle, instance..,; The •■Native. Minister.,would ask.'that the Bill bo referred-' 'direct,', to,' t tho■■ Native Affairs Committee. Asi to; the ' point-'raised ! by Mr. Herrips,,that V.theinative ' mombors;' would not have, nil .opportunity /, o£.; consulting ' their constituents,., he.asked.j what' - opportunity, had. I .had., of ■ conaultingtheircoli'stituents'..regarding, 1 'Larid and. Tariff .Bills/ ' at all. V Tho remarks' 'of j Mr< .a" suggestion that/ the.native''mombers had 'not' .the intelligence • necessary to cnab'e them' to understand, tho' Native Land' Bill. jHi took exception /.to such -,a r , suggestion. The proper thing was to refer the 'Bill to tho Native' Affairs Comtaittee, 'and when-it' 'came ; back . : the House, ought; ; to be > able ;to "get -ifc.'-through 'without;- difficulty,-this, ses-. .'sion/-^" : ' _ ij'i'V;-;!- ;! ■ - Not Too Tired. • ,r." ;; I. ,i ;As to members : being 'fagged; he' had never; seen thom'looking'better,', !■ -'and,he added,: "we aire'only in the : middle of the session. > (Laughter.) '.' Look -at; Mn-.-Kaihau,!'; ho continued,'-" he :: is- infihb form." ' i,: ' Mr" A. 1 L' ; D:-Eraser: ;"'Ho> hi*s only- beenin; the' House' about-'.two weeks during the. sessi6ii; ,,, ' i-1. *'i'• ■ • The Premier thought; that tho ■' Native Affairs Committee should be able to report .the Bill back by November 9. * • Mr. A. L, : ,-D.;,'Eraser' (Chairman pf the " r We;oannot sjt..until'November i The ' Premier: " I think itho--i-could''sit''ey.ory,;day:"' T; ; Mr.-';'Fraser: ; " We could:-, da "so', but: the ,Committee' 1 will not meet-till next ',7 Th& ! Premierthought that by close applii cation-; tHo Bill coiild.be 'got- Hi rough by the time"''mentioned.'•' Tho''present'/ Bill,', he: said, :was;not in'any'sehse' a'"'washing-up Bill," . but'dealt'only, with such matters:'as reserva- ! tions for Natives and tho; system of tenure to : bo adopted in connection with Native land ; f t , A isign, of the ,End.. ; . , Mr. Massey said;. that, in spitoof- the airy 'way l in which; thfii'rernier dealt with -matter;'■ it' was"a ! --fact that at the .end .of ■ fourteen 1 days' from■ now very;-few members would'be left in 'Wellington;-iThere was np isuror sign-. of-' thoiapproaehing'end- of:a ses-' the introduction pfarNativo.Land )Bill.- ! ' -The : Premier was not 'particularly rba'ppy'in'rhis- parallels :when lie referred ;tp ithe Land Bill,, as if it had not-,been -before the:- v country;'- "Why," he' isaidy : "we , had a Land this last year;" I 'J-■ -'-a:, -. ; The' Premier: I referred'to this yoar's.Land ;J3iil;i-.'.t;.;ij ,', -Mr;:-.Massey :-!Thbh;. you admit-..that, this, 'year's' Land Bill was -.nothing like .the Land .Bill:-that !.wc had last year,;;.. (Laughter.), ; The (Premier;: 'h admit nothing of .tho Jdnd; ' Mr;.-, Massey: 'Said.-!that'.tlio land .quostiori had . been-ldisbussed! throughout..- tbe- country ,during; the .-last recoßS. .. The tariff qufestniihad also been before thespountryior years'.

The .iPremiori:'! The jNatiy.o. land question jhas -. been n before <;the,-country;:for,/tho, .past 20 years. .: ■.V .-yir,'.-i.:-.'.. -.-h Mr:- Massey :v "Yes, [and,,a ipretty.muddle Parliament has mado of it!" He hoped -Hint. ;io! iattemptajwouli.ibo to.; deal.; .with, the. question,'finally ,this session.. ; Tho.[Gov-ernment^-should, bring down amendments .that werea and then/bring dowi) l ;anj:upitp-datp ll a,nd, compreh'dnsjve, Bill, noxt...session,-; Even,; if they,,itook a , whole session to deal with such a Bill,'it would bo tithe well spent. 1 ' . r •

Agaiißt Haste"; ->' . said 1 tliought' -'that "Native laud 'legislation should be brought down early in'the session', 'but'he agreed'with'the Premier'that the"£eusb' hiid'been'occupied, with three'other: iriiportant Billsi ''As showing ,tho 1 of : ; bringing-dowi Native land iegislatioh"at, the end'-'ofa < session/' he refer-.' .red'to '.errors 'which hid occurrcd 'in the'past aridiowing. : to , 'which i th'e Billf as pissed had failed .to'give'effect .'.to the'intentions,of "the iegislaturoi' l These Vmistakes,: ho said, r were . due >•to ■' nothing : 'olso 1 than 1 the '-.'haste-:-with' Lwnich .these'.'Bills. were.-put'through at the ehd'bf a session;;' r'^'' : ' t':'-::: -noi Mi\ ;A.'','iL> D.'Traser said;'that'''he would' have-been inclined'to agree-'with Mr; 'Herries I ''remarks ' as -: to the ■ delay.i-'inifbringing' down'* tho il .'Bill; ; . but, for the' Premier's: assurance that- they ■ were' still; in l the: middle. of; the 'session'.'/.'This -'being -'so, he' : -had',; to 'in • bringing dowiv the : Bill'sd^early. (L'aiigh'ter.) If'seemed' ■extraordinary that ;a' general policy Bill—if it'were'such—Should bd brpught down' how in view''of.'the ; fa'ct that-" tli'd final -repprt of the Native-L'ands Commission was not likely*''to be brought down till 1909.. He wished'jto : know whether it was intended to briDg down a'; "washing-up bill'' this ,session? A Policy Wanted. . • ;. /rMr.'.'Ngata'; also', expressed regret at';.the .'Bill being 'introduced', so, late in th'o ,'session. l", He' thought' that';'if 'thero .was'anV' danger; 'm : ; ai ( : hurried 'discussion, of,' their .passing ;claus'c3 'having passed,'it woukl be, bfctt'or to'postpone -the".measure; until noxt session!,. He' was,' glad ;to hear .'that .the, presoiit. ; Land Bill was . not''a' ! consoliuatingfßill,; because it; would.be üßoldss 'for; any Government to'dcal with 'such a imoararo."at';'this', 'stage',' of ' the session.; It would^'ake.three or, 'four.gdod,.men at'least' six : in'ohtHs' tho various A'cte re-, lating to Native lands. " Before they could have a-'satisfactory>" consolidating measure they noeded to have''a definito policy from the.Government. Thoy should have the policy lirst, and; consolidation afterwards. In tho cdnipilntion of a consolidation' Billithey should not:rely.,-upon the' ordinary resourcos of the Department, • but should- engage tho assistanoe.'of men experienced' in Native land.mattors,- siich . as: Messrs. ■ 11. D. 8011, C. P. Skorrott,. and A.'.Morrison. •'

Ministerial Statement. Tho Nativo Minister '(Hon. J. Carroll),' in referring to tho complaints as to' the delay in ,bringing down .tno .Bill, said that although'.they had not heard tho Bill tho Native land question had been discussed by members,,,-especially Messrs. . Massey and HorricSj on every possible occasion. . Mr. Massey: -We , wore referring to this liill; ■ '

Mr. Carroll said that, generally spotting, the Bill.contained liodcpartuiofromthe linos of policy-laid down in the Financial Statement. He would move that the Bill bo referred direct to .the r.Nativo. .Affairs Committee., ..Referring -to .a question b.v Mr. Eraser, ; he,said that it wqs his intention to introduce a ''washing-up" Bill to remove anomalies and irregularities which wero at presont interfering with the efficient'administra-tion'of'-the law. As .to the want of'time, "Why. this haste,' 1 he asked, "to got away? ; ,WKy*hot',Bt6p.!and do the work of the country?"

The Bill .was read s, first time and re ferrcd to the Native Affairs Committee, with an instruction to report within ten days. Questions. The discussion .upon Ministers'. answers to questions lasted till 5.15 p.m. \_ LOCAL BILLS. Messages were read from the Departmental Committee notifying that that body had passed a number of Tocal Bills,. including the J'etone Water Supply Conservation Bill and the Lovin Borough Reserves Vesting and Jimpoworing Bill. Consideration of tho amendments made in those two Bills was postponed. , : PURE FOOD BILL. ' CONSIDERATION OF AMENDMENTS. The consideration of the amendments made by the Legislative Council ;in tho Pure Foods Bill was then taken. • Tho Minister for Public Health. (Hon. G. Fowlds) was explaining the amondmfcnts when tlio Houso adjourned at s.3o''jj'.m. He completed his explanation after the' adjournment and moved that thoy be' agreed .-.to. Sale of Dread. ; " ' ; The most important of the Council's amendments jwas the new Clause 26a, dealing , with •thp;s'alp.of:bread as follows:—: If ' 26a.,.,.,(1.) Every, person commits an offence who soils any bread the,weight of .which at :tho, time "of sale' is less than the seller representsit, to bo or. is. less than, the weight which, thejbuyer demands. • ~, (2.), Evtjry' person who sells any, loaf weighing at'thb'time of sale iess.than ."four, pounds but more than three pounds shall be doomed to; represent' that it w.eighs four pounds unless he stage's its truo weight to the buyer ,a.t ! tho sale. (3.) Evory.,porson. who sells any loaf weighing at tho time, of sale less than two. pounds .but '.moro. tllan one- pound shall he deemed to represent that it weighs two-pounds unless ho states. its" true ,weight to tho ;buyer at. Mio time of sale.' ...,. , . (4.). The .Governor may, by regulations from time , to. that; any-- particular class of,bread; snail'-be excepted from, tho, operation .'of, this, section, and .condi-', tions, (if any); as,he may. in -such.regulations prescribe. V ' .|V,;' (5.) ,EMry person commits, an offence, and isjliable.M a.line not exceeding fiveipounds;. who, after having.,delivered any broad to a, -, retail .purchaser, .and after r the same' lias been in the possession ..pf the;,purchaserfor. more than one .hour, — v.. . :• . (a.) Takps. back.s^ich.bread,from tlio mir:.l;., chaser'uhless..the.purchaser.-has a right to'reject, the "same as not being in.

• : ' L conformity with, the: contract of salo; •/ , :,;br ■ ■. ' -,-. t. (b,)'; Takos back such bread from the pur-1 ■ i i \ .chaser and ,sells;it. to any other -erson; More Amendments: .Waited. /.',-/. : Mr...Massey; regretted sthat tho ! scope of the Bill had boen limited ito exclude all-drugs'' oxcept those,intended.for:the use of man. He thought - the ; -provisions .' regarding the ~ sale of bread by weight afforded a loophole for fraud. Bakers should; be,allowed to tako, b'ack: bread from-.a: customer, but! not -to-'re-' sell i it; .The now' • clause' dealing witlr'the sale of needed amending. ■ 1 Government's Want of Couragei ; - /-; Mr. Tanner '(Avon) 'said . the. Government was-taking very' largo' powers /to mako rcg-, illations/ '.' He 1 . complained, -of ' the j delay. in bringing down/'the promised / Gbvernmont measure to'Tegulato the.'.prico of lVlieat and flour, and blamed the,' Government'-'.'for not dealing with tfiq/'"'flour ring." It was something like "a. scandal that' people should bo .writing to. newspapers..to .'complain that it was.'impossible to get' bread.,of the, propor weight. .' The /exception, ,of |'fancy broad from the previous, legislation, ;i had| provided a loophole./ "If the',House, meant to.'deal with, the/subject—which it'did/not—j-and .if', tho Government meant, to,'deal jvith tho subject H-whioh it did ndt—power would, bo given to an' inspector, to. entor/a. shop'',and- weighjany breold i.tliat ,',wasr exposed.' for',', sale.. 1 if ...tho Ministry had a little,,:cpuraee..!th'oy ; . could, sot-tie-the,matter, with a few ; There should bo no 'distinctions/in. rigard to woight/between plain and.fancy/bread, i Mr., jiornsby ; (Wairarapa), said., there., never was'a time.wbon it ; was. more necessary.than at: present,,to/havo a. check on tho..bakers. Ho liiipved to . disagree with the addition of clause.26a. i ;; | ; Undi:f;baked Bread.. ■. ; : t ;; . i;Mr.; Aitkeriv (Wellington.East)■ feared 'that ,the'new clauses on tho sale of bread'woilld /lead IJ to''bread : liot fully baked/; Ho thought'pro vision' shbuldjhe'/madß for adding -to a" lpaf ■ that was _ under, weight.',;, ~-i Mil r 'Hanan ; (Irivercargill) pointed /out that ho provision : was made regarding tho weight of loaves between two. and three, pounds." He complained, of the inadequacy of. fines th.it ha'd .'been' imposed /for the salo' of; milk. acliil-: .teratod'witlr formalin:' 1 ' ! .-'"/. V ; ,

v Mr.; 1 Hogg (Masterton)'; said ,he lipped tho; .measure would not''be 1 imperilled,' as it' was, a -valuable one. All bread should be sold by weight. In order to securo a, pure millc supply; a 'much 'better inspection of dairy farms'was required.Ho Had, received'coin-' plaints that, some; butter ' factories .were .seiiiiiiic; out short-weight'butter. '" ' . '.' : Sir "VV. Steward' also thought, tho provisions' regarding tho sale of bread needed improvement.

The Minister Explains. ', Tho Minister said that the Bill'was not intended to deal with cattle medicines: that would come under another department. Evidently sonle members . thpught the bread 'clause was'too lax and others thought it drastic... .It .had - been v'tth the' greatest care. Nobody would take a loaf 'weighing less than three pounds for a fourpound loaf. He thought tno public; would be adequately safeguarded by tho clause. Ho justified tho .power given: to make regulations by,a refererico to the constant changes in the conditions ot trade. The member for Avon would admit:that the.provious legislation was Jinoffeotivo. ■■ , i; . ; ■■ ' Mr. Tanner: "And so will.this be." , : ,The Minister: "It has noi'yet beon tried, 'and I hope the House will not refuso to give it '.a trial." . ~ 1 ; . ' Council's Amendments Agreed to. . '' Mr. Poold (Auckland) supported the Bill. Ho raforrcd to tho. evil,-of "doctored"cigarettes. , ,;Mr., T.' : Mackenzie'.(Waikouaiti).,,said, tho:! Bill was a valuable one, and .lie would do .nothing to .imperil its,passage. ; • Mr. 'Sidey..-.(Cavorshain) approved of. tho ..Council's' amendments.. J ..; . • '• • ■ . ,The motion to disagreo with Clause 26a was defeated,by'39 votes to 20, and,the Council's amendments . wore. then,. agreed:.,to'...on . tho ■ voices. .■ . -, n. • NEW'MINISTERIAL BILLS. The following Bills were, brought down by Governor's Message and read ,a firs'; timo:— Loans to Local Bodies Act Amendment Bill. Government 1 Advances to Settlers Act Amendment' Bill, "Post Office Funds Investment Bill. . r " , 1 . ' In roplv to Mr. Herries, tho Premier oxplained tnat tho Post OIRco Funds Investment Bill'was to enable'tho Post Oflico to advance a sum of, money to' enable a building to te erected in Wellington,- and to enablo a site to be acquired in Auckland. NATIONAL ENDOWMENT EIILL. -' THIRD READING. DEBATE. Tho Prcmior moved the third' reading of the National Endowmont Bill. Mr. Massey said ho thought the present Bill was the worst of tho three Land Bills. It was a legislative hvpocrito—a fraud, and worthy of tho utmost contempt. There, was not 'a-single individual in tho House, and very few in the country, who believed tho Bill was introduced ■ for ■ the sake of education or oldage pensions. It was introduced to please a small and insignificant scction of tlxe House, led by the member for Lyttclton, assisted by the member for Wairarapa., The Bill would check settlement,, and .interfere with tho prosperity of tho country! It was a leashold and land nationalisation Bill. He did not onvy the freehold members who bad voted this Bill in their task of explaining their

votes to their constituents. Tho revenue from tho endowments would decrease at tbe timo when it was wanted most. -r? Want of Confidence in Posterity. The provision for charitable aid, which was in last year's Bill, was left out of this Bill, yet surely if it was required then it was required now. The fact was that the alteration was made beennso otherwise the inadequacy of the endowments would bo more ridiculous than ever. At the same timo, charitablo aid would not suffer through being left out. in passing this Bill the House was carrying a motion of want of 'confidence in posterity and on itself in tho future. It amounted to saying that those who came afV? them would not be prepared to do their rhitr by education and tho pensioners. Th" oldage pensions would bo safer on t'io Consolidated Fund, and as for education, tho House' had novor failed to mako adequate provision for that. This miserable dole would not provide for education as many, halfpence as Parliament now appropriated pounds. Under the new sehomo of endowments, lands would become endowments just because a settler had not the means at tho time to take up the land on any other tenure. More harm was being done by tho. land legislation of this session than Parliament could put right for many years to come, and it was-being done at the bidding of a reckless and unthinking min-jnty. Sale of Endowirerte. ~ Ho was not opposed to monetary endowments, and would bo willing for education or; old-age pensions, or any other good causo, to have the capital value of the endowment lands. That was why he moved to maketho lands to be taken up on tho o.r.p. tenure, and also why ,ho voted for Mr. Wilford's amondment to enablo endowment lands to bo sold and town and suburban lands to bo bought with, tho proceeds. Ho thought the land reformers had made a mistalso in not voting for that. As soon as the people of the Dominion realised the nature of tho measure, they would express their views upon it with, no uncertain sound.. .1 The Minister for Labour. Tho-Hon. J. A. Millar said that if the hon. member and his friends had bad their way, all the land of the Dominion would havo come-under the optional system. Thoy were working for;the man with tho long purso. In tho caso of certain lands ■ on the West Coast of this island that were thrown open , oiv the optional system and then withdrawn and offered on the l.i.p. tenure, tho howl that /went up was caused by land agents who wanted to lend money to the settlers.

Mr. Massey: " That is/absolutely, incorrect. It was the settlers." • ~ \ ;. Tlio Minister said some of tho settlers had mado arrangoments for loans from an agent whose .name he. .could, give., i , Tho Minister's speech .became in a little while a ..conversation between himself and tlio' Loader.of the Opposition and other, members. Ono . remark that was greeted with much laughter, and cries of-dissent was: " Why, the lion, gentleman would soli tho whole of Now Zealand in ono big paddock to anybody who had the cash to buy it.',' _ , Proceeding, tho Minister said they were following Itho . lato Mr. Rolleston—(Mr. Massey:,.'.'l wish .you, wore!"—in Dutting on tho Statute Book what ho tried "to, but hp. was thwarted .by Parliament. Wlion the ppoplo understood the, provisions;. of the Bill thoy, would realise that tho Government had acted in tho interests of all tho peoplo. . v ; ; . - Tho.dobato was continued by Mr. J. Allen, Mr." Lauronson, Mr.' Major, and others. , Tho Premier, having replied, tho third! reading was'carried 'By 29 votes to 16, and the Houso rose at 2.20 a.m. "V.