HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 29, 29 October 1907, Page 7

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

; CHRISTCHUR'CH DRAINAGE. 'cAi'/i-riThe.Hbuso of Representatives sat last even•(■j.-« ing''at'!7:3o o'clock;< -> ■■■; ~: i , ■.• ; ■(-. if- l/Leavewas given tho Hon. rJ. -A. M'Gowan jii.v,:to introduce tho Christchurch District Drainyp) r Bge Act Amendment Bill.•:■ ; :■■■> - : i : '".T V i,,;H.., ENDOWMENT BILL.';"-.;' , ; •• V ,;'>.;■ -i:fe ' ''ki.v'"-— '■■:■■[,■■''.'.:; "■' ■■-.' ..->V.. DISCUSSIONJN COMMITTEE/ • ~ r,<\ ~-..-,■' .-i •+•■•: ■,■,.;/ ::■■ ;■ '\ ~..,. | !■■' ■ '' ' ,'.'..; '■. .Cbnsideraiion.wa's resumbd'iri.'Committeo'of 1,;, r the.' National; Endowment iiill at Clause 12. ~.,;' rTHo:e}ause r proyicles.,that. the -Colonial Treau,\,. ''surer l .may,.,under;.,tii6-provisions of.the Local '" Bodies "Loan Act, 1801,' issue, up,to, £50,000, '■-. .. .r,os.appropriated.;by,Parliament, ior tho forma- ■ : ',''.-itipii of,roads, aiid bridges upon any national--1,:,, '.eiidpwipent lands....These sums are to r be-in i r '>■■■ 'addition to.iand'nbfein substitution.for, the Bums;;authorised .under-, the 1901 Act. All ,;v;,; ; .'-'Bunis.,expended, .together,,with interest' at a .-.: >.-,' rate not'exceeding; 4i, per cent.,: shall be a -;>.> -;first' ; charge :Upon;,tho National, Endowment Account and shall be payable out of that ■!.i.---i.'MCOnhljj.- :U-r. ;.rv ■:..■; •>,■■.■..!.■.; - :■ .: ;--r»] i.!'Mr.yMassey;r said ' -it-• seemed ■ under this . olause that v;hen money was borrowed it remained .a charge . upon the National ■ Endowment Account, and not upon the land; :.that")."tho).'National Endowment Account! .was responsible for . the paji.T '■ '"' : ;;-jnent ""''of : . v ' the '. interest': for , . ( all time.. ; "' : '"On'der' ; tho present' system a : local body could ;•'■ ''borrow for. twenty-six 'year's : at. 5 per cent.j '/ ; : arid aV'tho'end'of that.time tho'principal and ■•'',,' interest- wdiild' be/wiped off. This was not '"■''! the "case with'"' money 'borrowed oil'.Crown 'J ■ land's j settlors wenji'on paying interest for all '. ";'time,'Vwhich. was'unfair. '\ ; - ■-.■■._.,-. : ; . r ,'_ .Tiio./.Prem'ter;. replied'that the' , ,application ';' ;;.°of itlie.blause;would.,n6t'bo the, same as under ' Bodies; Act! , ' He. announced inci..•.i, dentally, that,,it. was int'endetl to!reduce tho '-■','.'.'. rate.'.'o'f interest 'to, local, bodies this session by

_;.',''■■■', ii, half.'per.''ceht. ;.'..-; '<-' (",'.!'■ ,;.' '.' : V ■ ",'j j,'. l.J.n. reply" to .'Mr! .Herries,', the Premier 1 said thai''where'-mb'noy, w'^.h'orjr,p.«:ed. for."roadsj "i ■.ete.y-it,,wou]cl,l)o c'hafged on (lio Endowment ~j. ' Euiid; and nbt ( -up'on : th6 i ]and..;. i The individual ./-Bcotions.upon'which.'tlic money.was 'expended ; ,;iv ' wpuld.'.not Ije.icharged, , T ; ... ; 'Y'V, ;'.. ;' ■ ,: v; .i, Clause".l? ; :was.passed unaltered. .. •■■■■' -■'■;■;V,i-^;;'';,.,: .' N: ,,;,;:;;:, .;:, ~•,.;.: . .. v ; .; ■•■■■■■ ~ii ,G1au58 : 2...,, :-;■ .-.,... •■<-,:.,., . ,- : ..... ; . ''■'■ '' 'Sir' Joseph Ward then'moved to ; add the. following sub-claiise 1 to'Cla'usb'2:— ' ■ , ■;..-•' :■■■>_ : ;i •;.''' In'addition to the Crown land'described *■ ;; ''in''the' schedule; the-area'of national endow-, ment'-laniT shall include all Crown Jand (not being land subject to the Land for. Settlements Consolidation Act, 1900), which on tho passing of this' Ac t: or at any time thereafter ,/.j,-v.is;.held; under.a renewable lease -^m .aceordanco =.. ..with; the of Part I of the Land .;, -.Laws Amendment:' Act, 19U7, or iincler lease (-,'■, -.as.fi small grazing-run ;under the provisions .•■,}/' of Part,y.of the'.Land.Act.KlSQS.jand allsueli t ;■;.land shall;beoribecome and shall at;all times ;;.'-.;.:thereafter.remain subject to the provisions of this Act accordingly."..! i ~-:.; ;.-.,.. ■'.-. ';',:-,■,i.ln..reply :to.,the Leader ;of, tho Opposition,. -■'•>., the Chairman said that object could be mado '-■•'■■'■ to'oach-iitem in the.Echedule^■ ■.. ~. " ;-;'- : |'- Ari ! A'mcntlnient. : . ■ ' .-■;■■ •::- . ,; '■' '';:;'-; :"■ Mr. , Mas'soy'complained that'the clairie ,was ;.:,,' too 1 ' indefinite.'. "' Ho, contended that Native', '■' lands ! would como'under the Endowment Bill ~,, when.they woro dealt with by tho trowh. Re- .■'■'■' i-.nowable'lease's and grazing'leases were also '.",.. '' to .bo. included. ,', .' ~ ■'.'; '. .., ~..'.',,■" ''.Referring to this matter, the Premier said, V -bo., lnt.encled'to move a,, further amendment that would. repair the indefinitehess complained of. • ', ■ Mr: Massey,:Givo us the amondment. , Tho Premier replied that the amondment ■■:•"■.':'/Wou'ld'-'not 'be ■ moved until tho schedulo was ■;';" ".''passcd./'He'liad , no objection to' reading tho -'■ '■';amendment,''however; v/hich was-as follows:—r ,-.-v" Provided that/if-at any time the area of ; : ' anddwinent lands amounts'fo nino million ■ ■-■■' acres; : no"other'-'area shall horeafter become ' endowment land by virtue of this section." Mr. Massoy: Now -we have got it. I hope North Island members will study it. .Mr. Lang■■' complained.; that two million ,>.,..., acres had been deducted from the nine mill.','.'", lion's, , :bu't'.it had'all been' taken off in the ■-"■' 'South'lsland.' '■ Tho reduction' should bo made v r . pro rata, .according; to the original proposals, i.\", in.'.' both', islands; \.' ' ' ■ .

,'|Waro' Compromise. ■ .:'■. :Mr. Lauronson warned the Premier against ;.,.separating!himself from, his political friends . ; bjv trying, to meet his political enemies. Tho v members of the : House 'represented every landless and poor person in the Dominion. • Had;tho.Government stuck to .-the endowment liproposals. of last year, they would have :i. evoked a'wave'of enthusiasm that would have enabled them- to, ignore' all'that straw-split- ■ ting piffle, as they had-been listening to ..for. ■ ;tlio last'two hours. ■■;■..■ (Opposition-, laughter.) ;■ "When; it was ■■■ announced ■ last year .that all the.'remaining Crowii. lands wero. to bo set : as:do\-as; endowments, ,tho: country was delighted, but now a: concession had been made to the Opposition,: and was. being ; received with jibes. (?.loro Opposition ■■. laughter.) And now it was. proposed to limit thoarea to nine "million acres for all time. The Goveminent should see that there was support .;b_elteiv\vorth having thari:that'of'the Opposition. ■ . ' -: Mr. Baumo said the views of the last epeaker • ; were erroneous. : The Government had to rely largely oii the support of the [freeholders on their own sido of the House. . The. .Northern members thought they were not ■ fairly treated in this matter. Those ! who' supported the endowment principle did : not'•' wir.h to' have , endowments in , their own 'districts for'the sake of those districts, but '• "it h.id : been accepted -that half the remaining \ Crown lands in •each' district should bo sot -V aside for'the purpose. Now,■ however, the ' : area in the South was" to be reduced by 2;000,000 acres. . This, was a breach of promises tfc.t were made'by tho Government, arid it Svbuld ho unacceptable'to Government supporters in the North. ' • ■'. •

The Premier Raplles. .. The Premier said tho last speaker had '' forgotten that a largo/'area had been added 1 hi'the South'in the shape of 056,000 acres of . grazing runs, and there would be more to come.' Hq did not' believe there would be •. niaiiy grazing, runs.'in the .North Island. Rα ... was not.awaro of any such promise as was ' alleged by Mr. BaiimeV Tho inequality between '.' the , two.islands was the result of the way the " ; ' : : la , h'd.**iA , {ils. taken iip in tho past. As for tho ' 'statcriienfc of tliu membpr' for Lyttelton '■'' th'a't the G'overmnciit was making concessions'

to its opponents, ho pointed out that during the second reading ' debate, member after member on tliq ■ Government sido of the House rose to mako objections to tho proposals. With regard to what had been said as to, South Island members influencing tho Government, he wished to stato that not a. single South Island member had interviewed any member of the Administration about tho schedule of-'endowments: The decision embodied in tho amended proposnls was arrived at during a meeting of the Cabinet on •Thursday, and-the Government did not consult a single member, Southern or Northern, about it; Tho proposal' was put into the hands of tho counsel to tho Law-Drafting' Office, and tho Under-Soerotary of Lands to draw : up the new clauno and revise tho schedule, without'the knowledge of a single' member of the House. Tho member forLyttcltbn objected to the further proviso tliat ho had just, announced, but the Government did not wish to exceed tho nine million acres. That was the area'which they had announced to',the country. With tho knowledgo that 7,500,000 acres had at first boon proposed to bo set asido in tho South Island, and that area was to be. reduced to 5,500,000, whilo still leaving the North Island area at 1,500,000, no fair-minded person, not influenced by political fooling, could say that tho North Island was , being unjustly treated:' 'A Say of Plenty Grievance. >'< Mr.'Herries aske,(l for more detailed information from tlie Minister for Lands as co the areas affected; by the amendment, and whether. the grazing runs under the 1885 Act, when renewed, would do relet under the 1892 Act, and thus become endowment's. His electorate seemed to be .created worst of all. It i would contain 550,000 acres of endowments, including sonio Mncl that should be let under the option system, being worth £7 or £B.an. acre. ■ ......

Statement by the Lands Minister. The Hon, E. M'Nab said that ho was unable at present to give all the information asked for in hill. Where it was decided to rcsiimo a small grazing run held under the the Act. of 1892, it was possible that a portion of it would, be re-disposed of as a small grazing, run,'aiid..a portion under.Part 111 of tho Land. Act. In that ovont : tho small grazing run would .bo disposed of. under tho Act of 1892. In the cases where the runs had fallen ■ in, the property had been subdivided,'under Part 111 ror closer settlement: : lu. default of ,tlip! detailed information .which was ' being. obtained from tho district land offices, ho could only say at' present that under 700,000 acres' of small grazing runs .'woro held under the Act ot' 1892, and over 700,000.under the:Act;of 1885.. The New Endowments. .....The bulk of, tho 1885 runs wore in tho North Island. Tho greater part of the grazing runs to come back into tho endowments would bo in tho South Island. He did not suggest that. the exact proportion, as previously fixed, between North and South would bo maintained, but;apart from tho limitation clauso announced that ; evening by tho Premier, the area of new endowment lands would not. havoibcjen greater in tho North Island —he.thought'it would liavo been lessen .in' the South Island. Outside i the .scheduled endowments a larger proportion of land would bo disposed of under the optional jSystera'in the North Island, than in tho South. Mr. Hemes: "Biit. ,the ronewnblo leases .will..come in." ...,.,,

Mr. M'Nab: "But they! will ail. get tho occupation .with right of purchases chance, anc that means that about six or seven to one will choose'that tenure. When you navo tho largest area under close settlement; you •will , ' have' tho smallest, area of endowments." Oittsitlri.bf.'Hawko's'ißay 'there was no part of the' North' Island'where t'nc conditions woro like'those of Canterbury and Otago., It was true that land was 'taken'' back' from the ■ endowments''in tho South Island,' but it was chiefly' in' the' South Island''that ,: riew endow'm'ent'lands'wore;t6 bVactd'ed'. X' I '",' . ; ■•• Chance of trW Option 'Incrcase'cl,' ' -In connection -.'with tho :two million acres that woro boing withdrawn from tho'endowments and all the lands outside the schedulo, except-tho small grazing runs, tho settler would got tho option. It did not make any difference to the settlor whether his rent went .into tho Endowment Fund or the Consolidated Fund. Ho (ther Minister) could understand those who wanted all land to bo .disposed of under 'the leasehold system objecting to tho. amended schedulo, but no could not understand the objections of somo other members of tho House. The Government was ; practically granting tho people of the, Dominion' tho option of' the freehold ovor another two million acres of land. ■■■ •

An Opposition Leaseholder. Mr. Fisher said tho proposition as ordinary contained in the'Bill was so materially altered that it represented an attempt—anil no' doubt a successful v onc—to' plaeato t-bo freehold section of thq.Hoiisq.; Ho contends J that the two : million acres that would ip, taken out of the nirio would bo' o.r.p. land, and that'the two millions that would take itsplaoe .would be lands that could not b« ■sold in , .' any case , ; He' would have been piepared to vote for'the nine' million acres, L-ut-as a leaseholder ho objected to the present proposal.' 'With the exception of tho member •for Lyttolton, leasehold members were sitting still v.'hilo the Government were whittling 'down , the Crown lands. Ho went on to point out that 570,000 acres' of Crown lands in Canterbury wore boiiw knocked out oi : the schedules. Yet Canterbury leasehold members Tore' , sitting tight" and saying nothing. The returns under the amended schedule would lie less than under the original proposals. Ho was in tho minority as a leaseholder, but he would hold to his opinions. . ' ■ ..- ; .'...■ rt Powerful Minority. •■ , Mr. T. Mackenzie said .the position was as Mr. Jflshnr had stated, tho leaseholders were in a minority; they could not number more than 12 or ,1-1 members, yet-this .small band wire ablo to secure nine millions: of acres of the Dominion's Crown lands for endowments. Instead of a leaseholder calling upon lii? follows to stand up for larger endowments h<? thought the freeholders representing tho majority should stand up for what they considered right, even if it meant a stonei wall.

The Hon. 11. M'Nab, in reply to Mr. Horrics', said thiit the.two million acres taken out of tbeschedule was a fair, average •selection of land of different qualities. The Hope of the Leaseholder. Mr. Masscy moved to withdraw renewable loases from the operation of the Endowment BUI. Mr. Massey stated that it would now be for the' man who went on the land to 'say' , whether his land should bo.ondowod or not. That decision should rest with the Government. .Moreover, the tenants under renewable leases 'would now lose the hope that some future. Government would grant :thorn^the .right- to acguiro the freehold, and therefore the other tenures would become all the moro popular. He was awa.ro that this iras n leaseholder's argument. I)o»btless, Mr. Lauroiisqn would. advance it himself if he : wore in his usual place. . (Mr. Laurenson was..temporarily...occupying the chair;...'.' - • ... The amendment was lost by 40 to 17. Mr. J. Allen moved to omit small grazing runs, from the endowments. Mr. Allen said these runs would be suitable for cutting'up for closor settlement.—Lost by. 40: to 14. A 1 few minutes-before midnight, a vote was taken on Clause 2 as amended by Sir Joseph Ward, the result being its adoption by. 38 to 20. Adjournment Desired. At this stage Mr. Massey asked the Pro-, miiir to report progress. The late-hours of the past week could only be boriio by tho stronger members. Sir Joseph -Van! said he expected to"got half-way through tho Schedule before reporting progress. (Opposition 'laughter.) Hiv/Massey said that Mr. Alison, owing to a throat affection, would be unable to speak again in the House; this session. Mr. Lethb;i'.lp;c wiis'rlko Iγ. ill asids\ Sir .Tosepb V/.ini declining to move the adjournment,' Mr. Massey moved to amend

Clause 3, to make it permissible for national endowment lands to bo sold under the optional system. This was a direct negative to the clause. Mr. Massey said he desired to give the opportunity of selling tho o.r.p. landsl Tho amendment was lost by 38 to 19. Clauso 3 was adopted by 36 to 19. Power to Sell Endowments, Mr. Wilford then moved the following new clause:—"Any lauds new or hereafter reserved for any of the purposes of this Act, except lands included under the provisions of l'arts V and VI of ; tho Land' .>.;t, 1892, be disposed of by way of sale in foesimple, subject to the limitations as to the area which may be acquired by any one person provided in the Land Laws Amendment Act, 1907, and tho-' Commissioner, on behalf of the Board, shall execute a transfer or conveyance thereof to the purchaser; and the proceeds of overy such sale, after deducting all expenses of survey and other expenses incurred by the Board or by the Government in connection witli silch land, jhall be invested in other hinds situated within ton miles of a town or borough having not'less than five thousand inhabitants; and such land when so acquired shall become part of the national'endowment hereinbefore,referred to."

The mover said that the proposed endowments would not greatly increase in value, but the purchase of city lands .would provide an endowment of growing value. - Sir Joseph Ward contended that tho House had' already decided on this matter in a previous amendment proposed by Mr. Massey. ■The Chairman ruled tho amondmont out of order. .

Mr. Wilford moved that progress bo reported to enable the,. Speaker's ruling to be taken. • The' Premier said ho would opposo the motion. Ho wanted to got. on with the Bill and not to waste time. Tini motion to report progress was carried by 31-to 22. Tho: Speaker ruled that tho Chairman of Committees should havo allowed tho new clause ito bo presented, and ho ruled accordingly.. p . The Clause was lost by 29 votes to 24. Tho following is tho division list:— For (24).— J. Allen, Bonnet, Fisher, A. •h. D, Frasor, W. Frasor, Graham, Greonslade, Harvoy, Herries, Houston, Izard, Joinings, , Lang, T. Mackenzie, Macphersqn, Malcolm, ,; Mander, Massey, Okcy, Reid, Remington,' Ross, Seddon, Wilford. Against (29).— E. G. Allen, Arnold, Barber, Barclay, Buddo, Colvin, Dillon, Duncan, Ell, Fowkta, Gray, Hol;o, Hogan, Hogg, Hornsby, Kaihau, Kidd, Lawry, M'Gowan, jn'Nab, Millar, Ngata, Parata, Poland, Sidey, Stallworthy, Steward, Tanner, Ward. The schedule was formally read ■ a second time, and the , House adjourned at 1.12 a.m.