BIBLE IN SCHOOLS.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 29, 29 October 1907, Page 6

BIBLE IN SCHOOLS.

DEPUTATION TO MINISTERS. GOVERNMENT WILL MAINTAIN THE 'EXISTING SYSTEM. , A largo deputation representing the Citizens' Bible in Schools League, and including several members of Parliament, waited upon the Premier (Sir J. G. Ward) and the Minister for Education (Honi G. Foivlds) yesterday. Over forty 'gentlemen were present. Tho deputation was introduced by Mr: J. G. W, Aitkon, M.H.R. VIEWS OF THE LEAGUE. >. Mr. J. P. Burlev (chairman of the Citizens' Bible in Schools League; said the idea that the movement was engineered by the ministers of religion was erroneous.. Some of them took part in it, but it was a citizens' movoment. They desired the Bible to be read in the schools, as a classic. As such it would have.a high educational value. The teachers alone should conduct tho lessons, and their explanations should bo historical, geographical, and grammatical. This would preclude the possibility of sectarian' teaching. There should . also be for scholars and teachers a conscience clause. This teaching would lead to a highor moral tone, and, the Bible being the Book of books, many of the children would in this way bo enabled to gain what they might otherwise lack. The sectarian difficulty was unreality. It did not) arise in. Ireland, whore children of different sects used a common' religious text-book m the schools. Tho statesmen who introduced this system in Now Zealand would bo regarded in after years as one of the greatest benefactors the Dominion over had.

Mn. Harding, who had been deputed by the committee of the Ncwtown District High School, said that the committee was unanimous on the subject, but he also spoke for many othor committees that had been communicated,with. Up to 1887, Bible reading in schools was universal and compulsory. The rosult of abolishing it had boon disappointing, as sectarianism;had.increased; and the Sunday schools had" not been able to supply the place in Bible-teaching vacated by the State. The plea of tho deputation was justifiable on tho grounds that it would increase the.efficiency of tho schools, remove the only objection to the Statb .school'system,, and improve the moral tone of the schools. ' Mr. S. Pearson, lion, secretary of the League, gave some information obtained by the League as to the prevalence of religious, scriptural, and moral teaching in tho schools of the countries. In New Zealand many of tho school committees that opposed the demand of the League- stated that they wished the Ten Commandments to bo repeated in the schools. The increase of juvenilo crime, and. lack of respect for parents, were additional reasons for scripturo reading in schools. AN UNREHEARSED ■ INCIDENT. Mr. Vaughan (Wellington), who.-spoke without being called upon, said he would not like tho Ministers to think that the demand of tho League was by any means unanimously approved by the school committees. His own committee had been represented as unanimous, but he was. against it. It was the,same, no doiibt,. in other cases, and the committees had not been elected on the question .of Bible reading. . Tho league 'claimed that.they wanted the Bible read as a classic, but they really wanted religious teaching. There was already:moral teaching in tho schools! .

Complaints .were made that this speaker was, out of order, but ho , replied that lie had been invited to attend, and ho claimed that ho had; a right to be heard... . Tho Premier, on being appealed to,.said ho understood that ho was receiving- a deputation, and not presiding at a public meeting. Ho believed in freedom of speech, but suggested that tho objector, having 'now indicated his position, should- respect tho Wishes of those.who organised the deputation. . ,;. OPINIONS OF MEMBERS OF MENT. ' ■■ ■' .'•' , Mr. A. W.' Rutherford, M.H.R.,',.said ho. had come to represent the. school committees in his district; all of which, were inifavom ,, ' of' Bible reading in schools, biit personal!}', ho was against it. " '' ' " . ' 'Mr. Malcolm, 'M.H.R., said he ' was ,ifeqj'pstcd by three of the school committees' , of Gluthii to appear in'support of the League. Personally, ho was strongly in. favour of'religious teaching in schools, but' Held that'it should bo conducted by die religious denominations,, not by the State. Bible teaching.m the State schools would-be unjust'to largo numbers ~of tho people, including , Roman Catholics, It would also, lead to'the establishing of a Test ActAahd teachers would be appointed or rejected 'on account of their roligious beliefs. ("No, no!") Thisrhad already occurred in some places? where religious teaching had boon introduced unofficially. In O.tago the churches were increasingly taking up the,-work' of roligious teaching in the schools, and with beneficial results. Ho desired that that work-should ho extended. The reouest'that tho Bible should bo. taught as n classic only was cither •■ an abomination or a subtertugc. The result of JK ~i e ™« scl ' ool P '" .the Old Country was that <Q,m people were being regularly prosecuted for their religions beliefs, and the best religious minds or the country, Dr.: Robertson Nicoll at their head, Vere'saying that the only solution was secular/education. ■ .Mr. James Allen, M.H.H'.,' spo ke "of the literary beauty of the liible, as' a reason tor its inclusion m the educational system. He would go further than the League, but at least tho exclusionooff f the Bible should be put an end to. It aniounted' to" telling the children that the Biblo was/unfit for them to read. If the Bible wore re'a'il iii , the schools, it would give, the ..churches' a 'better' foundation to build upon. -He'hopKl that, if tho bovornment could not introduce a Bill to deal with-this knotty Question, that tho Iremier would offer no ■■opposition'"to a Bill that might be brought fijnvard by a privuto mombcr in the direction , indicated Mr. T Mackenzie," M.H.R., supported tip request of the deputation, .He believed tin Bible was excluded from the schools.at the bidding of, a handful of atheists. The arcumont from tho Roman Catholics would oe more impressive, if they were content with the:present system; but tliey evidently were not, as they wore maintaining;- at great cost, schools of their own, ■iii'ordcr to cive religious teaching which,'they'considered es" seiitial. : . ■■. .. .- ■.■ ....

■■Mr. Malcolm: Let'ius'do tiie same • V Air. Mackenzie added'that he was stroncl? against the religious .teaching j n t l, o school,?. Sir'-W. J. Steward. M.'H.R., supported the deputation, though .ho 'was opposed to ieligious teaching jn : the State schools Ho would give to denominational schools a capitation fee/or ovbry pupil that passed a certain examination, and abandon the attempt to include the Roman Catholics in the State school system by keeping out the Bible Mi-. } Man(len,.M.H.R., and Mr. Buddo, M.H.K., supported the object of the deputai>loll. , ' , ' .. MR. FOWLDSIN REPLY. Tho Minister,,for Education (Hon. 0 Fowlds) said ho,'felt certain from . his exporience of tho .working of tho Education Act that the introduction of the Bible into tho schools would lead" to something more than what was;,actually, asked for bv tho deputation: The first speaker had alluded to the desirability: of religions instruction. If re-' ligious instruction were to bo given in the State schools, that would lead, as Mr. Malcolm-, had said,' to religious for the teachers'. Those tests would be'instituted by tho school '.committees. There was even now a tendency in that direction on the part of sonic school 'committees where particular denominations had a preponderating influence He disagreed entirely with the statement that the. moral tone of the young peoplo in tlioir'couiitry hud become lowered. That was 'a'.calumy on 'the teachers and children, and was not borne out by any sot of facts' that could be produced The Congregational Churchy to which ho himself belonged, had been among thoso who advised that religious teaching in the schools, as formerly practised iii this country, should bo discontinued. Such , Bible, reading as the deputation suggested would lead to religious teaching,'for which ill tho people would have to pay. Amongst tho best, minds at Homo, as ho had found durincr his visit to the Old Country, there was a growing recognition of the fact that tho o'nlv solution of the religious difficulty was for tho State to undertake .secular teaching, and leave religious leaching to the churches.' H Q was just as much interested in religious instruction as aijybody, and was willing to give I

time and money to it, but it was not the duty of the tSate, and it was not right for tho Stato to undertake it. It was religious instruction that was under discussion after all, ami they could not- get away'from it. If' the Stato had a right to teach religion, tho Stato had a right to say what religion should ho taught. (No, no.) There would 1)0 very great difficulties in introducing such teaching without undermining the foundations of our national system of education. '.. STATEMENT BY THE PREMIER., Sir Joseph AVard said that in reference to a request put to him by Mr. Aitken for a 'definite reply as to' whether tho Government would_ introduce- legislation to give effect to the wishes of the deputation, he had to say that tho Government had fully considered the matter on more than one occasion, and now again from the point of view urged by tho deputation. The Government "could not ;;eo its way to introduce such legislation'.for tho reason that it would mean that tho Government was favourable to tho proposal which had been'made, and'the membersof tho Government would require to vote in that direction. But the Government was not favourable, as a Government to that proposal. They took the view that they were placed in charge of a free, compulsory and secular system of education, and if a chango was desired by the people, it was for tho people to give an indication of such a desire. The question was before tho country at the last general election,' with the result that ,a considerable majority of the present Parliament was against the proposed change. A loader could only take the decision of tho;electors! If tho Government tried to bring: forward such legislation as the deputation wished, they would find themselves in a minority in tho House. In reply to the further question, whether facilities would bo/given to a privato member who wished to bring a Bill on tho subject, Sir Joseph said that no obstacle, would be,; or had been in:the' past, placed in tho way by the Government. Every facility would be granted. Personally, ho had always boon in favour of religious teaching of-tho young, both for the sake of their own future lives and in the interest of the country to which they belonged. The Minister for Education had, however, shown them what difficulties there were.;in introducing such teaching into the public schools. The question was, as' one of tho speakers had said, a very knotty one, and ho .felt the Government was right in saying that only the people could settle it. .So, long as the people-wanted' free, secular and compulsory education, the Government,- must give effect to that mandate., and that : ,was what the Government as the custodiansjpf the existing systems were doing. ■• ,r . Mr. Aitken, "in thanking the Premier and the Minister for Education for'their courteous recoption of tho deputation, remarked that , the Bible-in-schools question was only one of a number, of issues placed boforo the people at the last general election. ■ .-