HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 25, 24 October 1907, Page 6

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

ANOTHER ALLECEO BREAOH OF ••■ PRIVILEGE; A scquol to ; tlVo alleged, broach of privilege disc of last Wednesday, came before the Houso yestorday. '•'...' 1 ..■'.Mγ. Gray (Cliristchurch North) on behalf of the A to L Committee, ropprted a matter wliicli, rhe said;.scorned ,to .involve another breach .of priviloge. The. facts wore-that when tho St.ato Coal Mine affairs were before the Committee, Mr! W. C/Gasquoine (Manager of -tlio Stato Coal Department) was '■ asked whether 'he was aware that a report had been made by tlio Electrical' Engineer , of the Christehurch Tramway Board that coal at IDs. Bd. per ton was as cheap as St.ato coal at lCs.-.2d. Tho reply was that he did not know. Mr;. Gray,,said ho, had,,.based liis question on an. oictnict from tho .Christchurch "Press" of July 13, which showed that tho Works' and Traffic Committeo of tho Christclnircli' Tramway Board reported at "a meeting' of tlio Board that it "hud divided the coal contract fpr one year botwepn the Westport Coal Company at 19a'. 8(1. per ton, and tho State Coal .Department., at 16s. 2d. Tests mado showed that owing to tho larger consumption of'the'Stato coal required in comparison with tho Westport coal, : tho' cost from either coal was approximately tho [samo." On Tuesday last, proceeded Mr.

Gray,'ho had received a letter from the Electrical Engineer of the Trnniwny Company as follows: "I have recently boon iiitnryiqwoil by ah officer of the State Coal Departs inont witha-request fora report on tlio. Stato coal^usod". by the Board. Ho produced a telegram signed 'Gnsqiioinoj' in. which ho stated that you had said that the Tramwhy Board's ungin'cor found Wpstpbrt coal at a higher price cheaper than State coal. At tho time I refused to make a statement, having instructions'from tho Hoard. The Hoard has received a request that I should bo. instructed to make a roport on the coal, and I .forward this for your information." ,'i'ho point ho wished to omphasiso'was that Air. Gasquoine, in divulging a statement inado boforo a Select Committeo, had be»n guilty of a breach of pTivilego. Mr. Gray had no personal feeling in ' tho matter; ho simply desired tho Houso to tako it into consideration.' Ho understood it was customary to leave such a matter to tho Leader of tho House. ,

The/ Premier. The l'romier said he know nothing about the matter except that Mr. Gray had brought it before him the provious day. He thought that a report should be sent to Mr. Gasquoino and that ho bo asked to make an explanation.' It would bo-inadvisable at this stage to bring him before the Bar of tho House. They should first have the officer's statement, and thon if- any further step was, necessary the House could take-it. Speaking again, the Premier said he would like to ascertain tho exact position. Mr. Gasquoine, in reply to the committee, had said "he.did not know." .Probably ho sent the telegram to obtain the information wanted. .-.'■■

...Mr. Gray: .Tho point is that Mr., Gasqudino is stated by tno Engineer of the Tramway Board to. havo sent a telegram to his officer 'stating that I had roado a certain statement in- the committee. It was therefore, for .tho Houso to decide whether'ho had not divulged a statement made in committee.- '■••..- • r The'.Hon. J.. • M'Gowan ; said the presumption wns Mr. Gasquoino had wired to tho officer to obtain the information wanted. No o'no could comoto any other conclusion. The Premier Moves. - ; , The Premier thon moved to forward a statement to Mr.•Gasquoine and to ask him to explain. ' . •' ■ . ' '

Mr. Massey thought tho Premier-did not understand tho .position. Mr. Gasquoino had divulged his information l)eforo it was reported to the House. Mr. Tanner: It is a clear breach of'privilege. '. (Hear, hear.)' -" ... ■■■: Mr. Massey contended tho right thing would bo to refer tho matter to a Privilego Committee. Mr. Gasquoino could then bo examined, and a report could bo made to-t-he House. ;, . t■■ . . Various Opinions. ; Mr. Tanner, could not .'imagine any member of tho,.House coming to any other conclusion than a breach of priviloge had been committed., Tho official had revealed..business that had not yot. been reported to tho Houso. To ask him to explain was not the way to proceed, whether-tho breach was unintentional or not. ;

Mr. Colvin pointed out that very few who caino before the committees know what constituted a breach.of privilege. Probably tins case'was one of ignorance. The Honi C. H. Mills considered the.Premier's motion covered nil the ground. Ho ■agreed with the provious speaker. It would bo absurd to brine; anyone beforo tho Bar of •tho House on such a: trivial matter'. A Farce. ' • Mr. Symes agreed that it would be a farce to bring -an official. beforo • tho Bar of tho House, .because tho House was to : be run by tho State Coal Department. This was the inference, after tho last week's affair.- The action from start to finish had been to trifle with tho matter. Tlio Standing Order's should either be, obeyed or abolished. ■If seemed that the Houso had decided tho best thing was to burn thorn. Thiit,' at fill ovents,' was' the logical inference after last weplc's' affair. To do ns Mio Premier jSiiggested,,would bo a,very .thin way of , getting out,of tho present.^difficulty. ■ To-days proceedings, however, wore only.a small matter compared with; tho'clouting tho :Committee had received thol othor day.' ■■•.'•

■• 'Mr. Lewis said that when matters , of.tlrskind arose the usual thing nowadays seemed to bo to introduce a sido issue. .The question 'was, lia'd/'an "offence been committed or. not? Probably the offence was a technical one,' but it should go forth to the world that Select Committee proceedings were private. They should first decide whether a" broach of privilege had been committed, nnd, if so, to call on Mr. Ga's'quoinb to' explain. If no offence had 'been 1 committed, then «'liy ask him to explain? ! ■■■■.•.■ .A' Minister's View. „•■■■/ J. ; A. Millar contended that, no breach of privilego had been committed. M..i Gasquoine, he asserted, had published no lotter.,. ' ■ Mr. ■ Gray':' Ho sent a telegram. •' 'Mr. , Millar: Ho sent 'a telegram to get iiiforinatioii,''and if anyone was. responsible for publication it wits the Tramway Board official. ; He challenged anyone to say that Mr; Gasquoine had published anything. He •had simply instructed a subordinate to obtain information :was that publishing? ,'• '. ■

' Mr.'Aγ.'■ Fras'er/.. Yes. ' > '. .: .Mr. Millar: Then no officer could apply for information from.a junior. - . • .

, Mr. Fnisp.r replied this'was not,tho position. Wh'at ho had meant was that no officer had a right to divulgo any : Soloct Coni\njitteo proceedings.. In reply to a ; further interjection from the Premior, Mr. Fraser declared that it was the rulo on,certain occasions for the Premior to have his own way of looking at the Standing Orders. When questions of this,kind came up he showed a wooful ignorance "of them. , , The Premier said that the retort.was a rude ono. , ' Mr! Fraser returned that tho Premier's interjection had displayed flippancy.. .. Mr. James Allen said the members looked to the Leader of the House to protect their privileges. To move an amendment to have the constitution course ; followed would bo fruitless. . ' i

Other speakers followed in a more or less bantering spirit. Mr. Hogg described tho breach of privilege as a storm in a coaliseuttle.', The Select Committee should have thumb screws and torture racks for refractory witnesses (laughter); and perhaps it would be,advisable to tako a .man down to Bellamy!s (laughter). . , Mr.,/Wilford: Move tho adjournment of the. debate. (Laughter.) * ■

Mr. Hogg: X'es, I'll move the adjournment of.the debate. (Laughter). ',''•■

The Premier and others: Oh, no. Mr.' 11. M'Konzio deprecated any tendency to' treat the Standing Orders lightly. Ho read from the Standing Orders on breaoh of privileges, and said the Premier's motion was .imirlmissablo.

. .Tlio Premier declared he was as anxious as anyone to see the Standing Orders upheld. Ho' went on to say that tho; Leader of the Opposition had 'committed a inorp important breach of privilege recently, in the Land Bill debate when ho said that tho schedule had been knocked out of the Endowment Bill in Committee. At this tinio no report thereon had been made to tho House. (Laughter.) Mr. Massoy: I nm not a member of the Committeo.

The Premier; Tho same thing applies though. He contended tho Loader of the Opposition : had come undor the standing order. (A member: "Well, do your duty. (Jjiuightor.)

He argil e<l that on this matter more information Was required, yet Mr. Gray and others' wanted to. bring the man before the Mouse and have all the broach-of-privilege paraphernalia gone through, ami tlfiit before they had hoard from him what ho had done. Tho Premier further argued from the information available that no breach of privilege, had , been committed. The Motion Carried. ■ Tho , Premier's motion was then put. Mr. 11.' M'Kenzio called for a division, but after the doors had been locked ho allowed the motion to be carried on tho voices. *•'.-' NATIONAL ENDOWMENT BILL. Discussion on Ministerial replies to question was concluded ten minutes beforo the adjournment. The next order for tho day was the National Endowment Bill, and tho

Speaker was about to put the second reading when Mr. J. Allen rose and spoke out time. . . \ Settlement or Sentiment.

Mr. Allen protested against the. differentiation between the Nortii and South Island. Jn tho South Island 7i million acres were set aside, and in the North 1} million acres. This he did not consider a fair proportion, especially whan ono considered that the option of those lands would bo done away with. It seemed that settlement with all its advantages was to go, and sentiment to be uppermost—sentiment which did not consider tho practical realities of the present day. Much had been said about securing educational advantages for the future, but who would dare to interfere with the Dominion's education? Tho lands would be more valuable for settlement than as endowments for education and old-ago pensions. They were such that, under the tenures offered, settlers would refuse to take them up, and where would their value then bo? Settle them, and induce prosperity, and in that way. benefit the two objects named. Referring to tho experience of the Otago Univorsity, Mr. Allen said that if they had had to depend on their endowments they would have failed. As to old-age pensions, he recollected tho late Premier declaring that the old ago pensioners were much safer relying upon tho Consolidated Fund than on any specific funds. (Hear, hear.) That was because nil the specific funds went into' tho Consolidated Fund. To.set the endowments aside ''would not make any difference, except to render tho institutions sought to be benefited dependent on a. diminishing basis of support. If tho great institutions of the country wore to depend on tho funds of tho endowments thoy would not flourish.

A " Passage." '...'.. '"• A brief "passage":here occurred between Mr.'Laurenson and Mr. Allen, ho former rose, and bv. way of .personal explanation took exTceptioh'to the way Mr. Alien;had quoted statistics from''an English authority. Ho attached the word " trickster to such methods. (Cries of " 0h,,0h! ) Tho Speaker said the term must bo witn'withdrew, but said he could not think'of a parliamentary term to.substiU Mr. Allen again. quoted from tho >oUimc, and; attain Mr. Laurenson replied ivith heat that, the; same, methods had been ..followed, and he had no parliamentary language, strong enough to apply to them. -..■,- W iiy the sbheduie was K nocked Out, The Hon. .T.'Duncan referred':to proposals of his when Minister. for Lands. Ho had proposed to set aside three or four million acres and could have had a better distribution over the two islands than at present. He went o to <=2V-that tho North Island had been stronger for the freehold than the South and tnat no doubt had had something to do with the greater portion of tho endowments than -in the South Island. A member:. That is. the only way to get even. . (Laughter.) "my, •was it,"-proceeded Mr Duncan, "that the schedule was knocked out of the Bill in tho Lands Committee?" No explanation was asked by the Government. Ho (could say why'it was,.;and ho was one <f the first to move in; that direction, Iho Committoo—it was no secret—were against the disproportion of lands/set aside m the South Island. " I would havo. been ashamed to faco my constituents with . tho,schedulo in. the Bi'll," said Mr. Duncan,, with ; considerable feelmg. 'Ho had voted, in Committee as lie thought right, and ho had considered an amended schedule would bo submitted by tho Minister for Lands, but it had not como. Instead the Premier had brought a paper into tho House, which was practically. the same as tho first. ."If that is tho way they want to run Parliament," .said Mr. Duncan, ~ let them;" he woud say nothing about,,t. (Laughter.) If any disposition had ■boon shown to meet the Lands Committee the lat tor would have inserted a schedulo.that would have been passed, and if it had not been the land would not fly away,'and would l>o availahlo later ;on. Mr., Duncan', proceeded that the schedulo included Oamaru Harbour Board endowments, which, . brought . in £3300. Could ho agree .to that ?—not likely. (Laughter.) He thought more caro and supervision'should havo been shown' in tho compilation of tho schedulo. Ho could not understand how such a mistake had been made as to includo'tho Oamaru Harbour Bpard lands.- Who .taiow how. many other such lands- had been included? Iho only reason he could give was that tho schedule, had been left to some official. Tho way tho Government intended' to romtroduco ■ the schedule was unconstitutional. Was over similar method adopted bel'oro? lie knew what was on the board. Notico of motion was to be given by the Premier, ! and the schedule would bo carried right' through the Houso without discussion: on the various endowments.' Why had an amended schedule not. been .gi von. to the Committed? Tho Premier—You would have struck it Mr. Duncan: Why not ask tho roason from the Committee? . ' ' •' The Premier: It was closed doors practically. ' ■ ■ ; .

An Ex-Minister's Throat. Mr.:. Duncan.:' It was not closed doors. Your • representative was there, and ho told you nil about.it. It. was only fair to the committeo and himself that some other.way should havo been adopted in regard to the schedule, and.if the Premier tried to put -t through ho would'bo riding for a fall. \\ hen the bill was explained to the public, they would bo roused in a way that had not occurred for somo time'. It was not fair to his constituents and the whole of the South Island The South had lost a lot of people to the North Island during the past five years, and what would tho. next five'years show? (Hear, hear.) There seemed to jbe some worker from the. North who had beeii engineering those in the Cabinet. (Laughter). There was no doubt-about it. (Laughter.) Somo of the North Island members had been engineering, themselves; (Renewed laughter.) "I don't propose to say uny more, becauso I don't think it will do any good." (Laughter.) ' But bofpro he sat down- ho 'wanted to say that if bis Canterbury friends in tho House did not' look well 1 as to where they wore, ho would make-the whole matter known all over Canterbury. '.(Hear, ,hear.). "And wo will see when tho elections como round, as they will do sdon, how this matter ■will.go. lam determined:on this, and I will leave it at that." If tho Canterbury members did not see to it. they would have to answer to their constituents.. The Oamaru Hiirbou, Board; he concluded, should not have their revenue taken away—they could not bear it. .■-...

The Premier: "Wo don't propose to, take away any endowment-from the Oamaru Harbour Board!" He directed Mr. Duncan's attention to clause 6 of the Bill. , A Bad Bargain, Mr. Wilford said that some of tho proposed endowments would require the expenditure of, thousands and thousands of pounds before they gave returns. 'Roads and other means of access would be given.- In a present ' Taranaki endowment sixty-six years would have to elapse, before returns • were given sufficient to. pay .for the. roads thereto. He believed in the endowment principle, but wanted them to bo> immediately revenue-pro-ducing. He would propose.in the committee stages that power should bo given to sell any part of the endowments and to invest the proceeds in ■ the : purchase of other lands within a radius of ten miles of a city or a borough of seven thousand inhabitants, and that such lauds becomo part,.of the.national endowments.' They would then have endowments worth somotliing. Tho right to sell educational reserves had existed in Now Zea-' land since 1892. He objected to the means by which the schedule was sought to he reinstated, because it would prevent each endowment being dealt with separately. In reply to an interjection by tho Hon. Mr. Fowlds, Mr. Wilford said'that if the !)99 years' lease had been given to .William the Conqueror he would .still have fifty-eight years to' run. (Laughter.) He did not object .to tho leasehold system, but ho objected to the Government saying, •' You must havo tho one tenure; and you are not going to have your choice of tenure." "Wo aro only legislating for five years." said Mr. Wilford. "I believe this Bill will do more to raise the cry for the freehold than anything elso over/submitted." Before two or throe years had';-gono tho. Bill, ho thought, would bo amended. Ho■• would voto for tho secon:! reading to show his approval of tho principle of tho ondowmont, but ho would vote in committoo to alter the schcdulo.

Mr. Rutherford contondcd the endowments would bo of no value whatever in providing for education nnd old age pensions. The main idea, lie contended, in the present proposals was to plsrc tlie land licyond tlio freehold for over. Ho assorted the land nationalists had representation in the House, and this iv.'iis one of the results. Mr. Hornsby- (Wairarapa) spoke in support of tlio Bill and the endowment principle. . Messrs. liarber and Dillon both quoted examples of the way in which tho value of endowments had accrued, and showed that tho setting aside of lands for the purposes named would be of great benefit to tho State.

Mr. Ell (Christcburch) said tho member for Bruce had spoken against tho endowment principle, but at a recent Anglican Synod meeting at Dunedin ho had spoken against the Te Auto College endowments being allowed to go. Mr. Ell wont on to show that country lands had not deteriorated in value and would not-as ondbwments. He quoted statistics to prove that rural lands in some parts of the United Kingdom were increasing in value. The endowments of tlio Oamaru Harbour Board brought in a revoniio of £3300 a year. ■ ... - Mr. Laurensori Smiles. ~'~ rrrr '~^&ia-. i Mr. F.'W. Lang said that even if the endowment lands increased in valuo, the expenditure on, ; old-ago pensions and education would increase faster. It was useless, to quoto increases in the values of freehold land, bqcau.se the Bill dealt only with lpaschold lands: -He had never been opposed to local endowments, hut land nationalisation was quite another .matter. Mr. Laureiison had appeared so pleased with the.Land.Bill because ho expected to get land nationalisation .through this ,Bill. He. saw Mr, Laurenson'.smiling. .:.,'. • ... \ . • Mr. Lewis: "The smile of'the tiger." (Laughter.) .'

Mr. Flatman said the House was really not on tho endowment question, but tho freehold v. leasehold question. Mr. Massey: "Which side.are you on?" Mr.'Flatmau: "I'm on the"endowment side. (Laughter.) Continuing, Mr. Flatman said that there would bo more'(applications, for the land under the leasehold system than if tho freeholdVero offered:- The Opposition had fomented tho freehold agitation for political purposes, not regarding tho wolfaro of tho country. Ho thought the endowment lands should; be allocated more fairly between north-aild'south. ' ''.' The Early Hours. ; „ ■ Mr. Field (Otaki) said he-could not approve or tho Bill. Iho endowments were inadequate, but. ho did not-believe-in endowments tor. tho purpose named in the Bill. •Mr. Fisher suggested' that endowments should be set aside at certain new townships along the Mam. Trunk. Lino, and other new lines where settlement would bo likely to jSpnng up. . .. J (Left sitting.),'