HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 21, 19 October 1907, Page 8

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

< A QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE.; A'LIVELY DEBATE. 'The A to H Petitions .Committee, througl the Vice-Chairman (Mr. Byrnes), reported oi a petition from Wanganui coal dealer against the State Coal depot. : The repor was to the effect that' Mr. H. Crotters, ii charge of tho State Coal Depot at Christ church, had refused.to answer a question stating that he did so under the directioi of Mr. W. C. Gasquoine,.. tho genera manager. The, question "the witness refiise< to answer had reference,to tho cost of Stati coal at Christchurch. Mr. Symes moved "That the report ]io on the table." > The Premier said he would like to as! the Chairman how this" petition came to b( roferred to the wrong committee. That was an important matter, and,the'country had a right to know it., The petition should hav< gone to the Mines Committee,: so that' thi Minister might have been present., Insteac of that;'hV had gone to a committee of whicl the Minister was not a member./'An attemp had been made to got through a subbrdinati officer information of a f detailed character and to, ignore the Minister altogether. Tlia was a dangerous precedent. '.''..'.'. Mr. Symes: Private firms gave'the infbrma tion. -\ ■ , The Promier: But you have not gone t< their' junior clerks';'for it." The committee ha: gone ,to a subordinate, and endeavoured' t< extract information which,, if'given; woul< be destructive to tho carrying on of this por tion of the business and the ''interests of thi people. Judging, by ,tho series,, of/.question: that had been'but to ; the : witness,'he'.added a wrong attitude had been .taken up by th< committee. They wanted' to get evident with a view to interference 'with the Stati Coal Depot. . ■ , |. : . . Mr. Hornsby: Th'oy want to burst it up. ' The Premier'reiterated the statement tha the.', object in , view was' to.' destroy : a. grca State Department that, mombers of the com mittee should ho the'first' 'to 'protect.'' | Thi • AVestpdrt.Co^r.Cditipany 1 had refused to.'giyi .the ; ,J .'. '^,' f ;'' ' '■' '!.'' ''■•'.'. ■ Mi. Malcolm: ;No';"that's ■ wrong.. . , ~ »,Mr. Gray: They 'gave' their information. . ,-|Tho ; Premier :.■ They 'referred.'to' their heac ,officer'to''give ; it'._!''. '''.'.'..,'■""','■.!'' \' "".'."''.' \\. i-Mr. Malcolm: No.' You'aro ontir'ely wr,ohg The Premier again,' in'| the course' of "som further,'remarks, said ait effort was beihj made to destroy a' State Department. '.' ■ ,'. Mr. Gray: l 'No.; I 'We"Vant .to 'save ,ii. ''.,,', Amendment by the Premier. ,'', '"'[■.',,■, The Premier said he wanted to save it fr'on its alleged friends.';' Hoi moved, "That;''!! the opinion of this House,-the'committee,-,11 endeavouring to: obtain informationifr'onv'i public servant on.matters.and records whicl are under the ,control .of a/ responsibl Minister, has not; followed therordinary. prac •tice, and that they be requested to.doso."'i Mr. Massey: said the: Premier was-endeav ouring to ;confuso' tho point at •issue,; Thi petition,' hSd'-not- been' sent jto the wron| committee. The Potitions Classification Com mittee had settled that, matter. •' The questioi 'was not one connected .with .raining op'ora tions, but-with the business management o the Department, and therefore should not/ a the Premier/suggested,bV referred' to thi Mines Department. .The petition- was-orii from the coal-dealers of .the Dominion—not o Christchurch alone—protesting against thi unfair competition of the Statoj.Coal Depart 'ment. It was a question'of the using o public monoyto injure them in their ,'businoss A lot of: accusations had been- made againsi the State Coal Department, and; it was timi the whole matter was loolced into. Ho under stood Mr.-Ga'squoino (head of tho Depart ment) had refused the witness permission'^ : give the information asked for. .-' It soomcc to him, thcrcforo, ; that Mr.'Gasquoirio shoulc 1 bo put in the'same position as .this witness and that he was in very serious trouble. • _Mr. Hornsby: Put'him in gaol: ' ' , Mr. Massey quoted thiTcasoof Mr. Wat .son, of the Bank, of-Now Zealand, who -hot been fined heavily for refusing to give'ovi donee. This was a parallol case. • | The Premier: ; Ho did not belong to a Stat< Department. - '?• .' • ' ; Mr. Massey replitd>that that was an argu ment against the Premier's contention. 11 ' was a much more serious matter to deal witl the manager ofa bank than with'an officer o . a State Department that was dealing witl j public money. , ' . the Responsible Minister. '•'. ' . Mr. M'Gowan (tho Minister in charge o ' tho Department) said he-had heard of tin j doings of the. committee;; and' had attendee some of its meetings;: •;!-, v : ■; Mr. Symes:'How did y,ou ; 'get that? } Mr. M'Gowan': From information receive' 1 _iike the police. ''(Laughter.)' ' Ho had saic f in the hearing of the committee that ho, anc '' not a junior officer, should have been asket l for the information. !-/!;■; /Mr. R. M'Kcnzie: You do not keep tin » books of tho Christchurch office; this mai J- does. ■ ' ;....' ■■ ■ ' . ■ Mr. M'Gowan in'thc course'of further re marks asked mombers if they did not. al s , ready know all ..about'it.'.;. ■,.'■■ .; ■ ,' >.. ■!, Hon. mombers: No, we don't. a Mr. Massey: Tho information has boon re ; fused. .".. ■ ■' • •' • "'■■"■':•,' An lion, member: What does it cost? . ';' Mr. M'Gowan said he refused to bo cross examined excopt by the Committee. H 3 added that there was an attempt being mad ■■-. by "dealers to get information with a viei ',". to injuring the State Coal Department. .. Air.' Mnssoy: They .say ; they'are subjec r \ to unfair competition. That's tho charg you have to answer. Mr. M'Gowan: I say'tlioy aro not., II added that if, ho chose ho could say som .. very severe things against'tho coal dealers Mr. Hogg: Hear, hear. Wo pay them fo '": short weight., , n Before the Committee. )- Mr. C. M. Gray (Christchurch North) sail n the Minister for Mines,, when questioned i: tho first instance about, the-potition, had sail is it was not a matter for tho! Mines Commit )f too. Beforo the Committee statements wor le made by witnesses that State coal was befnj i- sold at a loss of 3s. Bd. or 3s. lOd. a'toi in Christchurch.. Tho question , was askoi s- of the coal depot manager as to the pric j at which the. coal; was;.landed at Lyttelton ia The official'said ho had instructions fron :o Mr. Gascoigne hot to give tho information ie Tho matter, had developed from that stage y, and it now was a question whether a com "mittee had power to call for persons c

papers. If such ; proceedings wero to lie allowed members might snvo themselves tho ; timo spent iii committeo work. ■' Mr. Hornsbj* declared that tho wholo matter had .'arisen' over an attempt to burst up tho State Coal'industry, becauso tho good work it ;was doing in loworing prices was rbsonted by tho dealers. Mr. Fisher said that if tho Promior's motion was carried tho position would bo that an authoritative allegation regarding tho State coal had: been' made, and tho only evidence wliich could" refute it was refused by tho Government. . A Passage at Arms. A passage at arms hero occurred between tho Premier and Mr. It. M'Kenzie (Motueka). The latter strongly objected'to tlio Premier's dictatorial action and his motion. Some .heated cross answers were given, and Mr. Al'Kenzie declared the result of the motion .would be to trample tho dignity of the House in tho dust. It was a fine thing if the leader of tho House was going to support an' official in refusing to give evidenco before a select; committeo. If the motion wore passed, he,' for one, would refuse to sit on a select committeo in future. • Mr. Malcolm, a member of tho Committeo, said the heads of coal companies had given information before tho Committeo, and the head of the State Coal Department had only boeri*asked to do tho same. Mr. Symes (Patea) said tho bullying attitude of the Minister for Mines had little effect upon him. After speaking further on the matter, as ono of the Select Committee, he said that if the Promier's motion were carried he would refuse to sit on any select committeo in the future A Bad Precedent. , Tho Hon. J. ,A. Millar asked tho Houso not to set up a precedeut by passing over the head of a department in an attempt to obtain important information. Other members expressed their views, and as tho adjournment hour drew near the proceedings lost their earlier tenseness, and mombers amused themselves with ' facetious interruptions." i; The debate was finally interrupted by the dinner adjournment. On resuming at 7.30 p.m., the House divided on the Premier's amendment, which was carried by 34 to 23. FIRST READING. The Bills of Exchange Act was received from'the Legislative Council, and read a first .time. ,■••.•' THE LAND BILL. I.;- JfEW LIMITATION CLAUSES. Mr. Rutherford explained that ho ' had voted on.the previous division for Mr. Massey's 'amendment to strike out Clauso 66 of the Land Bill, but his vote was not recorded. . The Speaker : ordered tho division list to be corrected accordingly. . , ," The House then' wont into committee on the. Land Laws . Amendment Bill (Hon. It; M'Nab), clauso 75 (tho last clause . of. the Bill as reported from the Lands Committee) without discussion. • The Minister moved a new clauso, numbered 76, being tho first of a series of clauses ,t'o ho added to the Bill,.and entitled "Part IV—Private Lands." The object of-Part IV is to provide that land'alienated by the Crown in fee simplo after tho passing of this Act shall be subject to a limitation in that no person shall acquire any interest in any such land, if such land, together with all other land hold by him under any tenure, severally or jointly with any other .person, amounts to moro than 5000 acres calculated as provided in section .55 of the Bill.(Section ''(Section 55 provided that every acrs of first-class land shall bo reckoned as 7\ acres, and every aero of second-class land as 2j acres.) After, hearing protests Horries and Mr,, Mass'ey,' tho Minister agreed to except ,'Q.K.P. lands from the operation of Part IV 'jii cases'where the leaso was dated-from before the coming into oporation of the Act. In roply to .inquiries, tho'Nativo Minister (Hon. J; Carroll) said Part-IV would not apply, to nativo lands. • "..Clause 76, which merely states that all land '■hereafter alienated by tho Crown is subject to this part of the Act, was adopted on the 'voices, with tho amendment touching O.R.P. land as stated, abpvo. Mr.'; Massey's Approval. ' . ■ i .■!'!. The Minister ihen moved Clause 76, which i imposes"'the limitation of area as described abovo. He. mentioned that the limitation :would work out, as prescribed by clauso 55, to 640 acres'of first-class land, 2000 acres of second-class land, or 5000 acres of third-class "Mr! Massey said ho was in favour of the new ; limitation; clauses, and had'intended to move somothing-on the same lines, as applied 'to Crown lands alienated after the passing of this" Act. ... i Sub-section' 2 of Clauso 7, which was adopted without amendment, makes 1 art IV apply to any interest or estate in land, whether freehold or leasohold, legal or equitable, vested or contingent,: and whether ni possession; remainder, or reversion. > Succeeding machinery clauses wore adopted. ' A breach of tho law is mado punishable by "a penalty equal to ono half of tho interest 1 Part IV 'does not apply to interests acquired by. way of mortgage or other security, the acquisition of any interest by a trustee; executor, or administrator,' or' any 1 ititerest acquired in trust for any religious, Educational, charitable, or public purpose. A numbor of now clauses of minor importance were added. Preference at the Ballot. The Minister submitted, as promised, a new version of tho ballot preference clauses. Clauso 50a provided that tho Bill may, with the' approval of the Ministor, on opening land for selection, sot apart allotments m respect of which preferonco shall bo given to landless applicants who are married men with children, widowers with children, widows with' children, married women with children and judicially separated from their husbands. All such applicants shall rank equally with each other. Mr. Fisher moved an amendment to placo in tho ballot box-an additional ball for tho wifo or husband of every married applicant and'one for'every child of an applicant, and to put in an extra ball for any applicant who has applied unsuccessfully during tho preceding three years. Lost by 48' to 16. Tho Minister' moved to limit the amount of land tliat may bo set apart for preference purposes under Clause 50a to one-third of the area opened for selection. Adopted.