THE LOAN BILL.

Clutha Leader, Volume XXIII, Issue 1148, 4 September 1896, Page 3

THE LOAN BILL.

! The debate on the second reading of the Aid to Public Works and Land Settlements Bill was resumed on Thursday by Mr Moredeth who thought the Government were not justified in going into further debt for railways for, in proportion to our population, we have quice sufficient railways for all practU I cal purposes. He favored the expendi ture of L250,000 on roads and bridges, but saw no necessity for the other votes. He thought that on the eve of a general election it was a mistake for the Government to commit the colony to another loan, and holding these views he felt compelled to vote against the second reading. Mr Buchanan reminded Mr Meredith of the Colonial Treasurer's statement that the finance was exhausted and that unless this bill was passed the Government would be unable to pay their officers ne*t month. Mr Meredith, as a supporter of the Government should have taken this into consideration. He went on to say that the policy of the Government had been one of financial imposture &nd the taxpayers of the colony were being loaded with heavy additional burdens. He challenged the Government to show there was anything in this Loan Bill that was not on all fours with Loan Bills of previous governments, and every additional loan meant increased taxation, especially on poor people of the colony. Mr Carncross supported the second reading of the bill. The discussion had shown that eaoh member regarded ifc from the point of view that affected his own particular district. The eflfcet of the whole debate was that each member looked after himself and ' the devil take the hindmost.' Mr Wilson opposed the bill and said that if Mr Carncross's views were correct, that each member looked after his own district solely, then he was sorry for the House. This bill meant a fresh borrowing era and as it would tend to demoralise mp.mher3 he protested against it altogether Mr Tannor wished to state explicitly that he would vote against the bill. He regretted that the Government should a few weeks before a general election do exactly the thing which they had for years past denounced other governments . for doing. The Government should refer the bill to the electors for their sanction. Mr Lawry saii the Government were doing now what they should have done 12 months ago, namely, go in boldly for loans. He defended the Government's policy. Mr M'Guire strongly condemned the financial administration of the Government and said they were not to bo trusted with another loan, and if the house did nofc throw out the bill financial disaster would result. Mr O Regan supported the bill, although he was not enamoured of any borrowing. He was especially pleased at the vote of L200,000 for the goldfields, which would benefit the whole colony. Mr Earnshaw was surprised to hear Mr O'Regan, an apostle of Henry George, advocating the piling up of the national debt, which must prejudically affect the bone and sinew of the colony. He (Mr Earnshaw) was pledged to a non-borrowing policy and would oppose this bill. Mr R. M'Kenzie maintained that if the country was to go ahead it was necessary to borrow. Hon. John M'Kenzie asked whether it was possible for the celony to go on without a loan. He held it was not and asserted that the Government had enough funds to carry on the engagements they had entered into. He denied that the Government had departed from the policy of John Ballance and warned the Opposition that they must feed Mr M'Guire well with roads and bridges, otherwise they would not retain his support. If Mr \ Ballance were amongst them at the i present time he would have to take things as he found them and would have to go in for a loan, as now proposed by the Government. The colony had a right to some say in the matter and he would like to know how many members in the House would declare there should be no more borrowing. This question was of so much importance that the Government would not take the dictum of the House on it ; they were prepared to go to the people and get their verdict, and if members rejeeted this bill they would have to face the music. If the Opposition came on to the treasury benches the first thing they would have to propose would be a loan. Local bodies could not do the work of settlement ; they had not the means. They were told they should not purchase more native land, but if they did not do so they would have to repeal the law, which provides that the natives could only sell to the Government. He asserted that the House had full control of the expenditure despite what Sir R. Stout had said, and full returns were always furnished. Mr Saunders twitted the Govern ment with a complete reversal of their non borrowing and self-reliant policy. He spoke at some length on the evils of borrowing and said he would vote against the bill He regretted that Mr

Ballance's policy had not been followed, for if that had been done the colony by this* time would have been able to pay off some of its debt instead of adding to it. He thought the preamble of the bill should read :-^ 1 A bill to ensure reckless expenditure on the part of the Colonial Executive withaut the possibility of any control or restriction by the elected, representatives of the people, and to enable the Colonial Treasurer and the Agent-general to borrow o million of money whenever, wherever, aud however they pleasp, and to appoint whomsoever they please to exercise the same unconstitutional, uncontrolled, and indisputable power to pledge the credit of this colony at any time and for any purposes.' Mr Ward contended that it was the duty of every government to refrain from borrowing as long as possible, but when borrowing was forced on them they must keep pa'cjs with the requirements. ' ■ ' " Mr Lang urged that the different loan proposals in the bill should be brought down in separate measures, and generally criticised the policy and administration of the Government. Mr Pirani said he was opposed, root and branch, to the loan proposals, contained in the bill. The fact that the. finances of the Government had got into so hopless a position as indicated by the bill and the speeches of Ministers was in his opinion quite sufficient reason for Ministers going to the country bofore raising the proposed loan. Mr Morrison supported the bill and contended that Mr Bailance did not hold the views on borrowing that were ascribed to him. Mr J. W. Kelly asserted that if many more millions were added to the debt of the colony it simply meant repudiation. Jf the Government went to the country on this policy they would find the people against them. Mr Maslin said he would be untrue to the people who sent- him to the House if he supported the bill. Mr Hall spoke at some length in support of the bill, which he considered was in the best interests of the colony. Mr Green opposed the bill as he looked upon it as a recusitation of the public works policy of 1870. Mr Growther states that Rafter the speeches of Ministers, who said it mattered very little to the Government whether the bill, passed or not, he would vote against it, so that the constituencies might he consulted on the question. Mr Massey, while he admitted that several important public works required to be. carried out, thought "'the public debt was now so large that it was necessary to abstain front borrowing for some time to eomn. Mr M'Nab said he must vote against the bill in fulfilment of his election pledges. The .country should have been consulted before this serious change of policy was enterrd upon. Mr Pinkerton supported the bill. He disapproved of borrowing money to construct new lines of railway, but it was necessary to complete several of the unfinished lines Mr Flatman supported the bill, which was opposed by Hone Heke. Mr Seddon said it was a question now whether they were to have a progressive policy or a period of stagnation. The Government could not go on for another year without assistance and cirry on public work?. He did not want the weak-kneed supporters who had shown their true colours in this debate, and he wished they would declare themselves in opposition and leave the Liberal Party. The attitude they had taken up was not just or fair to the Government who were doing their duty to the country ; nor was it fair to the Opposition party. He pointed out that several of the members who were strongly opposing this bill had voted for similar measures in past sessions, among the number being the Lands for Settlement, Consols, Advances to Settlers, and Lands Improvement Acts. This showed grave inconsistency on the part of these members and raised the question whether they had always been so anxious to conserve their election pledges. The Government had great cause for complaint on account of the action of these members. He contended that the Government could not stop the public works that were now going on, for it meant throwing a large number of men out of employment in a bad season, and he was sure the country would not countenance this. No doubt such a proceeding would suit Opposition members, for then the unemployed would be available to do their bush felling and other . works at a cheaper "rate of wages. The position of the colony warranted the Government in asking for this money for the assets were very largely in excess of liabilities. Mr George Hutchison had asked why the Liberal party and the, Premier had been allowed to reign so long in New Zealand, but in reply he would ask why the Creator allowed snakfs, toads, and centipedes to encumber the earth. He defended the late Mr Bailance from the aspersions cast on his policy and administration, and, in conclusion, said the people would recognise the services of the Liberal Government and return them to power at the general election, On a division the second reading was carried by 32 to }9,

Following is the division list t — Ayes (32)— Buddo, Buick, Cad man, Carnell, Carroll, Collins, Flatmau, Graham, Guinness, Hall, HallJones, Harris, Hogg, Joyce, Lawry, M'Gowan, J. M'Kenzie, R. M'Kenzio, M'Lachlan, Millar, Mills, Morrison, O' Regan, Wi Pere, Pinkerton, G. W. Russe.ll, Seddon, E. M. Smith, Steward, T. Thomson, Ward, Willis. Noes (19)— Allen, Bell, Button, Growth er, Earnshaw, Fraser, Green, Heke, Lang, Maslin, Massey, M'Guire, M'Nab, MiJchelson, Montgomery, W. R. Russell, G. J. Smith, Tanner, and Wilson. Pairs— Ayes: Parata, Mackintosh, Houston, Duncan, Larnach, R. Thornson, Stevens, Carncross, W. Hutchison, W. Kelly. Noes : Te Ao, Meredith, Buchanan, Lewis, Stout, Saunders, Pirani, J. W. Kelly, Dutbie, George Hutchison. The House rose at 4.5 a.m. On Friday afternoon the House went into committee on the Bill. Mr Mitchelson moved that the short title be altered to 'N. Z. Loan Act, 1896' He thought the present title was a misomer. — Mr Seddon opposed the Amendment. — Several members stated that previous loan bills were styled loan acts pure and simple and many instances were quoted. — A lengthy discussion ensued which was continued at the evening sitting. Ultimately the amendment was lost by 28 to 24. On clause 2, which empowers the Colonial Treasurer to raise one million pounds, Captain Russell moved that 'Colonial Treasurer ' be struck out and ' Governor in Council ' inserted. He said it was the usual formula in bills of this kind. They had already had the late Colonial Treasurer going to England to negotiate a loan and they would probably see Mr Seddon doing the same thing after the session. — Mr Seddon said Captain Russell was true to his conservative instincts and wished to cling to old traditions. He pointed out that the Governor-in-Council was simply the mouth-piece of the Ministry and there was no occasion to alter the clause as suggested. — After some discussion Mr Seddon agreed to insert, after 'Colonial Treasurer' the words ' upon being authorised by the Gover nor-in-Council ' and Captain Russell expressed himself satisfied with this alteration and withdrew his amendment. Captain Russell moved to insert the word ' borrow ' as well as ' raise ' in the clausp. Lose by 32 to 25. Mr G. J. Smith moved to reduce the loan to half a million, which ho thought sufficient for one year, especially on the eve of a general election. — Mr Seddon opposed the amendment, which after nearly three hours' discussion was negatived by 31 to 23. Mr M'Lachlan thpn moved to reduce the amount to L750,000, which was lost, without discussion, by 30 to 21. On sub-section 1 of clause 2, which sets out the conditions of repayment of the loan, Mr Montgomery moved to add the vords 'provided the time for such repayments shall not exceed 25 years from the date, of issue of such debentures.' He explained that his object was to make the loan a shortdated one, which he thought desirable in view of a still further decrease in the price of money. — Mr Seddon opposed the amendment, which after considerable discussion was carried by 30 to 27 Mr Bell then moved a further amendment to make it possible to redeem the debentures at the end of 15 years. — Mr Seddon protested against this, and after a discussion the amendment was lost by 31 to 18. The machinery clauses were then passed. Dr Newman moved the following new clauses : — ' The Governor shall appoint a Royal commission of experts to consider the advisability of extending as light railways all or any of the railways mentioned in the schedule, and report to Parliament next session.' — Mr Seddon contended this new clause was out of order as it wa3 foreign to the bill.— The Acting Chairman upheld the Premier's contention and ruled the clause out of order. Mr Bell moved a new clause constituting a special sinking fund under the act. — Mr Seddon contended this provision was not required for shortdated loans. — The clause was rejected by 25 to 13. Mr Montgomery moved a naw clause providing that the Minister shall within 10 days of the opening of each session lay before Parliament estimates of the cost of works constructed out of the loan money. — Mr Seddon said all the money to be expended would be contained in the Public Works Estimates. — The clause was rejpeted by 45 tol4, Mr Montgomery moved another new clause to provide that the proceeds of the sales of Native land should be paid to the credit of the Native lands purchase account and not to the consolidated fund.— Mr Seddon opposed the clause which after a discussion was rejected by 23 to 17. Mr Collins moved to reduce the vote L200,000 for the development of goldfields by Ll oo, ooo. —Opposed by Mr Seddon and lost by 25 to 17. Mr G. W. Russell wished to move that the following votes be added to the schedule : — For irrigation works (Canterbury), L50,000 ; for forest planting (Canterbury), L2o,ooo.— Mr

Joyce (chairman) said he could not accept the motion, his ruling being that additions oould not be made to the schedule. Mr R, Thompson then moved to strikeout the vote of L50.000 for the developement of the thermal springs and natural scenery of the colony, with the object of substituting L25,000, which he thought quite sufficient. — Hon Mr Seddon said the vote was one of the most necessary and profitable in the whole schedule. — The amendment was negatived by 23 to 19. On the vote of L250,000 for railway?, considerable discussion took place on the various allocations, but no amendments were taken to a division, and the whole vote was eventually agreed to on the voices. Ihe bill was reported with amendments. The House rose at 7.15 a.ra,