THE HON. R. STOUT AT DUNEDIN.

Clutha Leader, Volume V, Issue 236, 17 January 1879, Page 3

THE HON. R. STOUT AT DUNEDIN.

.The Attorney-General (the Hon. Robt. Stout) addressed his constituents at the fQueen's Theatre, Dunedin, on Friday night. The building was filled in every part, there being about 1000 persons present, a proportion of whom were ladies. His Worship the Mayor occupied the chair, and briefly introduced the speaker. The Hon. R. Stout, who was received with loud applause, commenced by appologising for the absence of his colleague, Mr Macandrew,' who had been all over the North Island enquiring into its requirements in the matter of railways, and who had knocked himself up so that he was unable to leave his room. He next referred to the abuse to which he had lately been subjected. With this he declined to deal ; he would not have been there that night if he did not believe he had the •sympathy and good feeling of tlie majority of Ms constituents and his fellow-colonists outside of Dunedin. They had known his whole political history since it began, and he would leave it for them to say whether it was right to subject him to the abuse to which he had been subjected. There ... — were some things that had been made the subject of specific charges, and to these he would refer. If there was a single thing he omitted to explain — he did not care upon what political subject it might be — if there was a single thing upon which any of the audience wished information, they had only to ask him at the conclusion of his speech. He liked to meet his accusers face to face, and he challenged those who had aught against him to meet him on the platform and haye'it out in the presence of the public. If he were to reply to all the carping and vulgar criticism that had appeared in some of the journals, he would have no time left to attend to public or private business. The first specific charge with which he would deal, was the one regarding THE TAPANUI RAILWAY, the history of which he fully explained. In 1874 the Provincial Council had unanimously affirmed' that it was a proper line to be constructed, and the matter again came up in 1875. It was discussed in Parliament in 1876 and 1877, when the House passed a resolution that it should be constructed, and asking the Governor to set aside blocks of land to pay for its construction. This resolution was carried, and in addition to that, the Governor sent a message down to the House stating that he would obey its request. The next question was, how was it to be constructed? It was pointed out that the way in which railways had been constructed had been a very false and injurious one. A railway was laid down on the map, voted by the Parliament, and the land sold on each side of it, without reserves being made by the Government ; and the result was that the railroad came to run through private property, and increased its value to an enormous extent, but the Colony reaped no advantage from it. The Government believed that the railway system should be such that the lines, if possible, should be constructed in a, different way — viz. , that they should select land likely to be benefited by the railway, and either during tlie time the railway was being constructed, or when it had been constructed, sell the land, so that the Colony, and not private speculators, should reap the benefit from it. If that system had been carried j out in the past they would not have beon I so necessitous in money matters, and they would not have required to ask London for such large loans ; but on the contrary, if the judicious system he mentioned had been laid down in 1370, many of our railways would have paid for themselves by the increased price received for the land. That was the proper system for the construction of their railways. True, the Government have not land immediately alongside the Tapanui railway, but they have large tracts of land adjoin ing, and seeing that the House had recommended the construction of the line, they thought that here was an opportunity for testing that plan, and that, therefore, they would go on with the work as the House had authorised it, and the Ministers had promised the House in 1877 that this line should be surveyed. The line was surveyed, and the surveyor was left carte blanche as to the route the railway should take. He (Mr Stout) fully explained a? to the calling for tenders, the acceptance of the lowest tender, &c. THE OTAGO UNIVERSITY BILL was the next matter dealt with. Regarding it he said, I shall explain the thing, I think, to you very clearly, and I shall tell you that after all the discussion, and after all the abuse I liave been subjected to on account of it, if I am spared next year 1 shall introduce the same bill again. — (Applause). You are aware that at the foundation of this Province there were certain lands that were granted to the Presbyterian Church, and a third of these lands were to be for educational purposes. No doubt the Presbyterian Church had ifc in its power to apply the third of these lands to any educational purpose it chose. I could tell you of the malversation of reserves in other parts of the Colony ; but I say, to the credit of the Presbyterian Church, they managed their reserves well, and they determined that this third should be set apart for the endowment of some literary chair or chairs in the University of Otago. At the time the money wa3 set apart there was no University in Dunedin. Now in the Act which granted the money for the endowment of a literary chair or chairs in the University, it was provided that the appointment and removal of the professors should remain in the hands of the trustees, with the concurrence of the Synod. So the Presbyterian Church could not give any money to the University unless they had the power of appointing and removing the professors -from the University, as those were the conditions under which the trust was held. Now I will tell you the position the University was in. The University had an ordinance passed giving certain powers to the University Council, and the University could not receive this endowment on such terms, because the University Ordinance said this ; — "That the Council shall have full .power to appointand dismiss all professors, •officers; and servants of the University, and shall have the entire management and superintendence over the affairs, concerns, "and property thereof, subject to the statute and regulations of the said University.. Provided always that if any chair shall be ■endowed by any public body, the right of

nominating a professor to such chair shall be vested in such body." So that the University had to take up this position. It had to say to the Presbyterian Church, " Gentlemen, we can accept your money and you can nominate a professor, but you can neither appoint nor dismiss one." Therefore the Church could not give its money except with the power of appointment and dismissal of the professors, and the University Council could not take the money except it had the sole power of management ; so that the grant was utterly useless unless the law was altered. Now, gentlemen, I thought it was only fair that the University should have the power that the University Ordinance gave it ; and that the Church — I do not care what Church it may be — should have no power of interfering with the appointment and dismissal of the professors, that they should leave that solely to the University Council, and that the Church should not interfere with a secular institution. Gentlemen, that is the position of the matter. But I did something else. I found the Synod had been for two years, .wrangling over the questions, and everyone, I thought, will say that the peacemakers are blessed, and if we could have taken this apple of discord away from the Synod, . I thought they would get on with their business very much better. And to show you that this was desired, I will read to you a motion, which was moved by one of the most conservative members of the Synod, and seconded by one of its ablest members. This resolution was moved by the Rev. Mr Bannerman, and seconded, by the Rev. Professor Salmond — " That this Synod make no appointment, but appoint a committee to prepare a bill for submission to the next session of Parliament, with the view of divesting itself of the power committed to it by the Otago Presbyterian Church Lands Act, 1866, of appointing and supporting professors in the University of Otago, and entrusting the appointment of professors, and funds from which their salaries are drawn, to the Council of the said University." And, gentlemen, lam blamed because I simply asked that the appointments should be given to the University Council, and the funds still remain with the Church, while actually the Rev. Mr Bannerman and others in the Synod wanted the funds to go also. lam abused because I did not go the full length of a gentleman, who you will all admit is a true-blue Presbyterian. Ail that was said to me was, " You did not consult the Church." Gentlemen, as a politician, I have nothing to do with consulting the Church. I have to do what is fair to the community, so long as I do not interfere with what is fair to the Church. If I had endeavoured to deprive the Church of its funds, I should have been culpable ; but I simply asked that the funds should be properly managed in accordance with their own act. And I did consult some of the members of ithe Church— some who havo done as much fov it, aud have its interests as much at heart, as any of those who opposed the bill. I went to the Hon. Mr Reynolds and Mr Paterson, two of the Church trustees, and asked if they would approve of my bill, and they said, " Why, it is the very bill the trustees wanted all along." I also asked other Otago members, and I did not find one opponent until a certain petition came up from the Presbytery, and then some people thought it would not do to go against tlie Church. Gentlemen, that is the history of the Otago University Bill. He next explained THE SAVINGS BANK BILL, which provided that when there was any money made by a Savings Bank, such money after it ha I accumulated for years should be paid over to the * Benevolent Institution. Under the head of SOCTA!? LEGISLATION, he explained at length the Trades Union Bill, which legalises combinations of workmen for incivase of wages, and makes provision for such Unions being registered; the Friendly Societies Bill ; the Juries Bill, that provides that if a special jury is granted in criminal cases, the person accused should not know the names of his jurors till he comes into Court. — (cheers.) ; the Licensing Bill, which has reference to to the Natives, and enables them to say whether or not drink shall bo sold within a district, virtually a Native Local Option j i Bill ; the Law Amendment Bill, an attempt to bring our complicated legal system within the knowledge of every man, and to lay the 'foundation for important legal reform ; the Repeals Bill, which ivill enable the public more readily to know what fche law really is ; an Interpretation Bill, to simplify the Acts ; the Administration Act, which Mr Stout explained : — You are aware that till the middle of 1875, when what was called "The Real Estate Descent Act " was brought into operation, if a man died leaving property, it went to his eldest son, and the ofcher children might be left to starve. There was then au Act passed which got rid of that in the case of a man being married, but which left the law of "primogeniture in force ; so that there was one law if a man died leaving money, and another law if he died leaving land. The Act of last session is not yefc in force, it is waiting for the assent of the Crown ; but if this Act comes into force, a man's land would go like his money, and be equally divided amongst his children: — (Cheers. ) But we have passed in the same bill two other most important provisions. One of them is this : — Supposing a man dies leaving land and a large amount of debts, before the debts could be paid, such was the sacredness of the old English idea of the land, that before you got LSO paid from the Land, LSOO expenses would, be incurred. The Act passed last session pro- , vides that if a man dies leaving land, it can be sold and applied to the payment of his just debts. Another thing we thought required speedy reformation, and it was this — suppose a man, or woman had the misfortune to be illegitimate, and he or she died without leaving a will, where do you. think his property would go ? — (A Voice : *To the parish.) No. "it does not go to the parish, it goes to the Government , I will tell you an incident, of course not mentioning names, that actually happened in this Colony. The man was illegitimate, though his father and mother married soon afterwards, and had . two .or three other children. The father died, without a will, and his property, . land, and money, had to be divided : amongst his legitimate children, and,, the . eldest son got nothing. The family — • three girls-, to their great credit, said

" our brother shall have ..the same share as ourselves," and they divided it, giving their brother an equal portion. But he, too, unfortunately died without making a will, and where do you think his land went — that which he got from his sisters ? Why to the Government. I say it was time such an iniquitous law as that was repealed, and we provided in the Administration Act that if a man who was illegitimate died, and had no children, and a man not married, his property shall go to his mother, or if she is not living, to her next of kin. THE LAND TAX BILL. We passed the Land Tax Bill. It took, I think, two or three sessions of Parliament in Victoria before they got that Bill passed ; and, if you look at the history of legislation iv other countries, you will find that it takes a considei*able time, more than two or three months, to get a bill so radical and so Sweeping in its provisions as this bill is, made the law of the land. I remember that after my last meeting last year I was accused of misrepresenting what were the views . and the theories regarding taxation that the members of the Opposition held. Let me tell you what were the theories that the Gov-' eminent held, and I will then tell you what the land tax programme of the Opposition was. Now, in reference to the Land Tax Act, we started with this as-? sumption, that land is different from all . other kinds of property, and I say so still. - . — (Hear, hear.) Let me point out to you how different ifc is. I will take an example that I am sure there is not one in this theatre who has not seen. Take a. man who has perhaps a quarter-acre sec- - tion in Dunedin. He bought it in the \~: good old times, when it was worth, perhaps Ll2 10s per acre ; and assume that he did nothing to it — never put a house on it, never put a fence round it, in fact did nothing to ifc whatever in the way of improving it. Within a .few years this quarter-acre section becomes worth — why, he would not sell it for LIOOO, !perhap3 L3OOO. Now what made this land so valuable? Was it he himself ? Certainly not. Ifc was macle so by the improvements to land made by ofcher members of the community. — (Cheers.) That is what writers have termed the unearned increase. Ifc is so plain that anyone in the Colony can see it. Now I say that a man ought not to be allowed to reap all the advantages of this unearned increase. — (Cheers.) Some of it ought to belong to the community — (loud cheers) — and that is the reason why I advocated, and still believe, that the State ought never to part from the fee-simple of its lands. Mr Mill has advocated that this unearned increment should pay something towards the reserve, and I hold so too. That, indeed, is one of the reasons why we put on the land tax. I will give you an example to , show that personal property is quite distinct from landed property. Say a man has LIOOO in money ; say he lent ifc on mortgage, at 15 per cant, on land — though sometimes you can get I7t per cent, and even 20 por cent. ; say hcliad this LIOOO and he got Ll5O per year from his investment on mortgage at the 15 per cent, interest. Well, as the Colony progressed, what happened ? His interest went down , and the same man can only got about LBO per year, whilst the man who has invested his money in land makes money without effort — he does nothing but sit down and twiddle his fingers. Even in Prussia, a country that cannot be considered a radical country, the Government, so far back as 1828, actually forced tho large landowners to break up their estates in order to provide for the small settlers of the country. Then we also find that they were getting enormous subsidies that others were not getting from the Consolidated Fund. I believe you have no conception of the amounts ?that the Consolidated Fund was paying in aid of the landowners. In Hansard you will see a table that I, assisted by other members, had ; prepared, showing what the landowners | were getting from this f and. [The hon. gentleman here wont into a few figures i regarding the Customs revenue.] It is true that land was called upon to bear a fair share of the burthens. Now, gentlemen, I will tell you how we proceeded to put on this land tax. We said it was our i duty to encourage the improvement of land in every way possible. It is the improvement of laud that makes trade, and that is beneficial to the population. We said we would put hd per Ll on the value of the land to sell, excluding all permanent improvements. Those who had improvements should not pay in addition. I will give you an example. Two men — say, A and B — have an acre of land each. One man lets his lie idle ; he does not till it, but says, "lam waiting till ifc increases in value." The other man alongside of him has spent all "his earnings in improving his land • he has fenced it, he has cultivated it, he has built a house on it. Well, what did the Opposition propose? They proposed that tho tax on these should be alike. Wo said that these improvements ought to escape taxation, and these two men should pay taxation alike. But the Opposition pitched into us, and if you read Hansard you will see how we were abused in the House, in the Legislative Council, and out of the House. Aud I warn you that if you are not careful you will have a tax put on that will tax -all your improvements.— -(A Voice : Not here.) It is very probable, any way. It was only by a bare majority that we were able to carry our tax. Then, again, we said this taxation ought to reach those who are able to pay. We say if a man has only a small amount of land he is not so able to pay as a man who has a large amount of land, and that if he has a large amount of land he is practically paying a large amount of taxation to the revenue ; and therefore we thought that the principle that had been adopted in England with reference to the income tax-;— that a man should not pay any tax on his income ■ if it did not reach so much — should be ap- ; plied to the land tax here, so that a man , who had LSOO in land should not pay any [ tax at all.- I—(Hear,1 — (Hear, hear.) That created a great deal of opposition. It was a fair exemption however. — ( Applause. ) Then , gentlemen, before I come to deal furfcher '. in reference to the taxation, I will now tell you — and I challenge rtnyone' to, dispute it — what was the kind of taxation that the Opposition proposed: They were continually proclaiming that lands should not be specially taxed. "' They wished to have the support of-y large landowners in. j. the House, and these generally did sup- !

port them. And they said — you must tax all property alike. That was their cry. I will just tell you what taxing all property alike-means. What was advocated in the Council — (A Voice : Realised, property.) — yes, I will tell you what realised property means. We will take a man who is a farmer. All his improvements would be taxed — that is realised property. Then he has sheep, they would be taxed — that is realised property. Their wool gets into a store, aud a tax has to be paid on it. It is then sent to the Mosgiel Factory, say, where the tax collector comes round, and the owner is asked to fill in a schedule showing his realised property — his tweeds are thus realised property. Next year these tweeds get into the tailor's shop, and he would havo to pay a tax on them before they were made into coats, and when they were made into coats or anything else, as the case might be, he would have to pay a tax on those articles. That is what is meant by realised property. A tax on realised property would be most calamitous to this country. — (Cheers.) — It would tax the goods in every man's store. It would press all trades and industries. If you went into a factory tho machinery would be taxed, or if it was a wood factory the wood would be taxed. • It would, in short, be the crushing of all industry. Well, I now come to deal with another phase of this realised property tax. It was said that what we wanted to get taxed in this colony were the mortgagees — we ought to reach them. I pointed out that if you taxed mortgagees the result would be that they would clap it on in interest on -the mortgagor. — (Hoar, hear.) And you would not have the influx of capital .that you have had in the past in the Col?pny. You are now beginning to see what the withdrawal of capital from tlie Colony means. It would be most suicidal for this Colony, therefore, to put a special tax on mortgagees. It would be amusing to you if I read from Hansard — or if any of you have nothing else to do some wet day, you could do it yourselves — (laughter) — the manner in which some members have spoken on this subject. They said, " You must tax the mortgagees. — you must tax tax the mortgagees." That was the pop- j ular cry. We said, "We will put a tax I on companies that- are making money." They said, " Oh, you must not tax companies. If you do, they won't send any of their capital tp the Colony. Now, with reference to this Land Tax Bill, I appeal to the verdict not only of the people of this Colony, bub of impartial people out of the Colony. True, here and there the Hon. the Treasurer has been sneered at as knowing nothing of figures ; but he has been complimented by such papers as the Sydney Morning Herald and others of similar influence both in this Colony and others. Yes, even English papers have said he was the most real and statesmanlike Treasurer we had seen for, years. — (Cheers.) — We don't believe in taxing bread. — (Hear, hear.) — We think that a very bad policy. We think that people ought to be allowed to live as cheaply as possible. Regarding our Customs tariff we find that there must be Customs duties. But we thought it was our duty to encourage and foster local industries, and have chosen to allow some raw articles free for that purpose. That is a good and sound policy, and one tha*- I believe the Colony will endorse. — (Cheers.) The hon. gentleman next referred to the Electoral and Beer Duty Bills, which were lost. He explained their provisions and the reasons why thoy wore lost. EDUCATION. I now come to deal' with the Education question. I, for one, have always supported and shall support the secular system. | (Loud cheers.) It would be a great calamity for this Colony if we could not have our schools free from sectarian strife. — (Cheers.) — I should have thought that a man's aspirations — a man's religious beliefs — were things far too sacred to be dragged into and stalked about in political meetings. Those are things for himself. We have no right, as a Colony to take any notice of religious opinions. If we did, where would the thing end ? It would end, I say, in nothing but chaos and confusion. — (Cheers.) — I am sorry to say there has been a movement — a twofold movement — set on foot amongst you just to get what is called denominational schools ; or in other words, subsidies for the various religious bodies. It means nothing moro than for the teaching of what peculiar doctrines the State can afford to pay for. In any British Colony it has been a failure. It has been tried in Victoria, and failed. The other movement — to get the Bible read in the schools — I will tell you what Bible-reading in schools means. It means that you must limit your choice of teachers. I .. would like to know ho.w anyone who wishes for Bible-reading in schools would like a Jew to teach the Old Testament, or a Freethinker the New Testament. — (Cheers.) I don't think any one would like that. Again, no one would be eligible for a school unless he was", to use an elegant Scotch phrase, " sound i' the faith." Try to enforce Bible-reading in schools, and you must necessarily have your teachers first examined as to what their views on the Bible are. They would not submit to that. — (Applause.) What 1 does Bible reading in schools do ? Anyone who knows anything at all about teaching — and I ought to do, for I was a teacher for about nine years — knows very well that besides giving the scholars a palmying'now and again, the teachers have to see that their pupils are attentive to thoir lessons. Three-fourths of the teachers will tell you that teaching the Bible in school has been and always will be a great failure. But suppose you did allow the Bible to be taught iv schools, what version would you use 1 The Protestant version ? Or perhaps we might have another version yet to come — I don't know, there are so many things being done now. We have heard a great deal of Darwinism and Evolution, and' you who object to, the reading of the: Bible could have an hour dr so of Darwinism instead, in the afternoon. - 1 regret to , see that some members of a church that in Scotland has ' stood nobly up for this', doctrine, that the" State has nothingwhatever to do with religion, and. who., have always had this famous motto,, " Render unto Caesar the things that are. Caesar's?." — I regret .to see that the prin--ciples of some -members of this body, have . changed here, and' that as a facetious; friend of .mine said-, it. seems .all U P. with! . them. — (Laughter. ) . , Some of them stood"; I nobly up in Scotland for keeping, the';

; -Church up independent of . the State, I ' and it seems strange that in this Colony they should ask the- aid of the State in ; teaching religion. I was sorry to see that the Dunedin Presbytery had passed a series of " whereases." for this reason : — that some of those whereases were alto- \ gether. wrong, They tell us, for instance, that the system in existence in Victoria is going to decay. I don't think it. — (Cheers.) ' Then they tell you this — "Whereas — : (laughter) — in consequence of the godless : character thus assigned to the present ' national system, the feeling in favour of " a denominational system has been gaming < strength, so that the bill of Mr Curtis i recently before Parliament was only lost 1 by the, narrow majority of six votes iv a s full House." Now I ask you if that is ( not a misuse of terms. — ("No," and " "Yes.") Very well, I am going to deal < with the question fairly and- straight-- ] forwardly. Do you think there is any- 1 thing godless in teaching a child grammar. 1 — (A Voice, emphatically : " I do," ancl ] roars of laughter.) I am afraid, ladies ' and gentlemen> that a member of the \ Presbytery has come here by mistake. — (Renewed laughter.) Is there anything ' godless in teaching arithmetic, or writing, ' or reading, or geography, or history, or " sewing, or drawing, or music ? No. It 1 is a misuse of terms to say it. — (Loud < cheers.) Anyone who says otherwise ( either knows nothing of education or does ' not know the meaning of the word godless. ' However, here is another whereas. — (Loud laughter.) "Whereas, if such a bill had passed into law, many who would ' prefer a national • system, in which the Bible was permitted to be read, would ; avail themselves of the provisions of such an Act in order to secure for their children a sufficient opportunity of becoming acquainted with God's - Word, and- in consequence, the national system would be. in danger of being destroyed." Now I can only say, in reference to that, that those who talk in + his way- of Mr Curtis' bill can never have read the bill.. Why, Mr Curtis said in his speech that he ; did not wish for denominational schools. ( I will state to you the provisions of his bill. There are only two clauses. The ' second clause provides that if any 25 ; householders signify in writing to the Education Board that thej 7 wanted a separate committee that separate committee could ' be appointed. . First, the Board was to '• give money or books to the committee ; no ' books could be read in that school without < the sanction of the Board ; the teacher could not be appointed unless he held a ' certificate under the Board. ; and this school established by Mr Curtis was placed ' in exactly the same position as the present schools are, and nothing but secular in- '< struction was to be given. There is no provision in this bill for any power to give religious instruction during school hours. It provided that during the hours set apart for school work it was to be exactly the same as the present schools are. This is an admission by the denominationalists that religion need not be mixed up with school teaching. But suppose Mr Curtis' bill had become law, what would have been the result ? Why, every 25 or more dissatisfied householders would have beon able to have a little peddling school of their own if they wanted, the schools would have been injured, and the teacher ; would have had to be an assistant to the clergyman, or if he refused to become such ho would be speedily got rid of. — (Applause.) lam surprised that denominationalists should accept Mr Curtis' bill. By doing so they admit that secular and ; religious instruction ought to be separated. I regret very much that the Presbyterian Synod framed that " whereas," because it is not correct with regard to Curtis' bill. - I say on this question of education I havo never changed. I think in the Provincial Council I was one of the few — one of the minority— tvho asked that out of respect to the religious feelings of the scholars, the Bible should not be read. I don't care what opinions a man may hold, but let him be satisfied that when his child goes to school, his religion will not be jeered at ancl mocked and ridiculed, and that his child will learn reading, writing, arithmetic, and grammar. TRIENNIAL PARLIAMENTS, Mr Stout next referred to the Triennial "Parliaments Bill, wliich he fought very hard for last session, but which was not passed. He believed that in this Colony, where our legislation is rapid, where public questions are changing, and new ones are continually arising, that there should be frequent appeals to the people, and he therefore^ believed that three years is quite long enough for aiiy of our Parliaments to last. He -also believed that the Governor should grant a ■ dissolution on being so advised by the , Ministry. ELECTORAL BILL. He hoped yet to get an Electoral Bill passed practically based on manhood suffrage. The re-distribution of seats was a most difficult matter, and would require to be dealt Avith very delicately and tenderly afc first. If a measure of this kind were passed, we would get rid of some blots on our system. There should be a commission which should allocate to the various districts new members according to population and population alone. LAW REFORM. If the present Ministry retained office they intended to provide for reforms in both our local and other judicatures, and make the law such that it would be within the reach of the poorest in the community. THB CHINESE. He considered thoy ought to pass an Act similar to that which is law in Queensland restricting the arrival of Chinese to the Colony. THE LAND QUESTION. Upon this subject Mr Stout spoke as follows : — Gentlemen, I have had to do with the administration of our waste ' lands. I am, as you are perhaps aware, i the Minister for Lands. Since I have taken that office I have done everything I , could to provide land for. settlement,, and I think it can be saidthat there have been . more lands, proclaimed under the deferred . payment system during the time that this „ Government have been in office than was ! , ever proclaimed before, and that more ; . lands are being provided for settlement'; in the interior districts than have ev.er ; : been provided before. How was I met- ; when I proposed to give due attention to , : the 'requirements of the interior districts" 1 : in Otago? What did X find? That | jj there were many districts—! desire to ; i

observe that I did not and do not wish to see the pastoral tenants injure • or ruined, but dealt with fairly and honourably — in which f;he people were urgently requiring land and there was - none to give them. I also found this great difficulty -: that the surveys were so muoh in arrears ,that r I had to send to Melbourne . and Sydney for surveyors. We are how getting the -.work overtaken as fast as we possibly' can, and I intend to provide for settlement in the interior of Otago as quickly as the staff gets through its Avork, I cannot speak afc any length on the matter, but I have no doubt that if Mr Macandrew's grand scheme of interior railways Were carried out, we should soon see a different phase of things in this Colony. I believe a mistake was committed in making our lines too near the coast. We should really have our lines penetrating the interior and opening up the lands to be provided for settlement by the people. — (Applause). In Avhat I proposed I considered I gave fair, equitable, and due attention to the requirements of .'• settlement in this Province, but how was I met in that ? There- came telegrams up to Wellington, Avarning the members against me.- [The hon. gentleman here read the telegram signed by the Otago bank managers, stock ancl estate agents, and representatives of loan companies.] — Gentlemen-, I ask you when you remember the line I have taken up on. educational matters^ Avhen you remember the line I have taken up on the various other matters I have mentioned to-night, and Avhen you remember the line I have taken up on the land question — are you not surprised that you see me much abused in a section of fche Press? — (Applause). It would take too long for me to read to you the reply 1 sent to that telegram, but gentlemen, I told them firmly that so long as I Avas Minister for Lands I should open up Ayhat lands I considered to be suitable for settlement, and that I did not care either for bank managers-or companies. — (Applause). Now I have told you Avhat our views are — that, so far as the finances of the Colony will alloAV, Aye intend to provide land for setting apart on the deferred payment system, so as to enable all classes of the community to obtain homes for themselves and their families. I tell yon also that this land question is one that is not got rid of when the land is all sold. We find after all that it is the question of questions in old countries ; and is even so in America. I say that it is our duty in a new country so to frame our laws, so to provide by our statutes, that Aye shall escape the evils of those old countries. What have Aye come to this new country i for, if we have not some aspirations thaf Aye shall be able here so to frame our laws that we shall get rid of the evils that have overtaken older communities. We ought, in framing our laws, to so deal wifch the land that Aye shall not witness Avhat has been witnessed in old countries — the rich getting richer, and the poor poorer, Avhich can only be avoided by seeing that our lands are properly kept, husbanded, and administered. I have told you that Aye have passed a laAv in oider to provide for the distribution of the land amongst the people. Ido not believe that any country will ever be great that alloAvs its lands to pass into the hands of a few people. If I had time I could read to you a most interesting extract from a paper from Professor Clifford Leslie's (Introduction to Lavaleye's Primitive Property), wherein he shows that the land question is after all the question of questions for thepeople-. I can only tell you, as Ido not wish to read this long extract, that he shows that the English land system has followed the system of feudalism while that of France has folloAved the system of the. people. I believe that only two remedies can be proA'ided in dealing with the land in the future. There should not only be equality of political rights, but something like equal conditions amongst the people • for, depend upon it, if you have a democracy Avhich, instead of preserving equality of conditions, but brings tho few rich face to face Avith the many poor,. the end Avill be anarchy, confusion, and despotism. There are, as I have said, only two Avays to obtain this equality of conditions. There is the French sys--tem, which says that a. man shall not be allowed by his will to dispose of his land as he pleases, but shall divide a certain proportion of it amongst the whole of his family. We see tlie result of this system. After the recent great Avar the French nation AVere able to pay millions of money, They Avere able to pay off the vast war debt, and iioav the people are prosperous and happy, simply through their subdivision of the land. You must have a modification of the French system introduced into this Colony, or else you will have to adopt the other, system, which has been proposed, of Avhat is called a progressive land tax. This is a subject Avhich, I think, the Government ought to take into consideration. On account of the lateness of the hour I shall have to pass over the question of railway construction, onr local go A r ernment proposals, &c, and with only a few Avords in reference to. THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. So far as the Council is concerned I have always been, and am now, in favour of Avhat is called the system of nomination. Ido not believe in an elective Council, because that would lead to the same deadlocks : and crises that have taken place in Victoria, Walter Bagehot, in his work on the English Constitution, says Aye have under that constitution some come-atable thing to put an end to crises and deadlocks, which can only be done by dissolution of the Lower House, or the creation of members of the Upper House for the occasion. The Government of the day ought to have this power of creation in their hands '; if it had been the case ih Victoria, there Atould not have been so many deadlocks there. In this Colony we are met with this question : Our Liberal measures can hardly be carried . through the present Upper House,' where there is, practically a. majority of Coh- ; servatives. The consequence is that our : measur-is are so : emasculated ;, that .we scarcely know them again. 1 for one; .have' been blamed lor- being obstinate : and! ; not ,yie'lding v _If ,1 bring in a measure? ■which. I consider to be a good 1 one, 'Li wonld;yrather. giA r e ifc tip altogether thain! ; ha-ve it emasculated, of made a fool of by] ; everyone who chooses to make, an amend- j | ment. .Here we y have this great dead; ; i weight. It 'is said that tliei-eis'no^arty.i

Government in the Upper House, but that ia the greatest faroe. Do -you think- a man loses his party opinions because he is dubbed M.L.O. ? We have, aa I have said, a majority of Conservatives in the Council. Now, we consider it to be our duty, to pass some liberal measures, to which, end it is necessary that our opinions should be represented in the Council aa well as in the House of Representatives. The only way to do that is this : to provide that the tenure of office of the Legislative Councillors should not ba for life.—(Cheers.) Life tenure is altogether out of harmony with our institutions, and it is time that such a thing should be put au end to. Possibly a tenure, of office for seven years, or for ten years at the outside, might get rid of some of the diffjU culties Ate at present encounter. Ther „• is another question about which I havo written,, and have been a g od deal pitched into for so writing. I allude to the ELECTION O^ GOVERNOR. ; I say that we ought to look ahead. Surely we are able to elect our ruler Avithout the aid of the Secretary for tlie Colonies ? — ►We ought to look forward to that-; and I believe the time will come when the colony as a Avhole . will say that we are tit to govern ourselves. We will not lose anything in loyalty, or in any degree lessen our connection with Great Britain because Aye elect- our Governor. We elected our Superintendents," Avho were practically Governors, but we Were none the less loyal because We do not allow some person in London to nominate them for us. — (Applause.).conclusion, I have sketched-^ 'out some of the measures that Iycorisider liberal. I tell you that. I remain in politics because I have some ideas I Avant carrying out, and not because of any emoluments that might accrue from my position as a politician. I tell y oil that Igo into politics for this purpose — I hope to see some of my ideas carried out. I have firm conviction's on many subjects, and I am not going to surrender them for anybody, — (Cheers.) If you think, Avhen the general election comes round, that I am all wrong, yon have it in your power to tell me so if yon please. But I shall always give myfuilest and freest expression of opinion. -(Cheers.) I have often had it said to me, " Oh, you should not do this," " You should not do that," "" You are injuring yourself , in business," "You have offended the Presbyterian interest, and all" the clergymen.''' Gentlemen, am I to be in this community to. act the hypocrite, to cloak my "opinions before the people t — (Cheers'.) ' The opinions I hold I believe in.— (Loud cheers.) And I can assure you that no place — no, nothing that you could 'offer me — will make me refrain from freely and fully expressing those opinions, and trying to get them carried into effect. — (Loud cheers.) I ask you— if you believe that the present Government is trying to aim at liberal measures, that it is trying to frame laws to get rid of various species of injustice that now exist, — I ask you-, I say, to give us your sympathy and your aid.— (Enthusiasm.) Do you think lam one of those who believe that people enjoy the idea that we leave our business and our homes for the purpose of having abuse and evil motives attributed to us ? Why, if I did not believe that there Avere many people in this Colony who, though'they do not hold- the views I do on many subjects, believe that we are anxious and sincere for the advancement of this Colony, I Avould not remain longer in politics^ — (Cheers.) Gentlemen, I thank you for the very patient hearing you have given me. — (Loud and prolonged applause.) After a number of questions had been asked and satisfactorily answered, a "unanimous vote of thanks, and confidence in Mr Stout Avas passed, and was followed by several rounds of enthusiastic cheers. • The Attorney-General having acknoAvledged the vote, the usual •compliment Avas passed to the chair, and the proceedings terminated.