PUBLIC MEETING AT BALCLUTHA.

Clutha Leader, Volume II, Issue 59, 26 August 1875, Page 5

PUBLIC MEETING AT BALCLUTHA.

A meeting of the electors of the Clutha District was held in Barr's Hall, Baiclutha, on Friday evening, to consider the question of the abolition of the provinces now before the Assembly. The hall was well filled, there being about 150 present, and it was apparent that the meeting was one of bona fide electors, the settlers of the surrounding districts being very well represented. On the motion of Mr Henderson, M. P. 0., the Mayor was called to the Chair. The Chairman said they were all aware of the object of the meeting that night, which was to take into consideration the Abolition Bill now before the General Assembly. They would remember what took place in the Assembly last year, when Sir Julius Yogel told the House that he would introduce a bill into the Assembly this session with a view to the abolition of the provinces in the North Island. They knew the action the General Government had taken during the present session. Not only had they brought in a bill to abolish tbe Provinces in the North Island) but also the whole of the provinces throughout the colony. Of course this question had been a g^ori deal discussed all over the colony, and it was not ior him to enter into the merits or demerits of the case. He supposed, however, that there were several gentlemen present that night who were prepared to sumit resolutions for the consideration of the meeting, and who would give explanations ofthe bill now before the Assembly. These genrlemen would, no doubt, give explanations of the bill, especially of those portions oi it that would affect the province of Otago and the Clutha district in particular. With these few remarks he would now give those gentlemen an opportunity of bringing forward any resolution they might think fit for the consideration of the meeting Mr G. Ingiis, Chairman of the Matau Road Board, moved the following resolutions — 1. That in tho opinion of this meeting the Abolition of Provinces Bill introduced by the Government seeks to eft'ecfcadirecfc constitutional change, ultra vires of the Assembly, and subversive of the rights ofthe people, the abrogation of which this constituency declines to submit to. 2. That the course pursued by the Government is impolitic, tho same being revolutionary and eminently calculated to cause serious dissensions in tho body politic ; to unsettle tho minds of the public in their allegiance to hor Majesty, as well as suggestive of resistance to constituted authority being necessary lo the maintenance of the political rights and privileges of the people. 3. That the measures proposed to supersedo provincial institutions are not fitted to curry out the objects for which they are ostensibly intended. 4. That tho question of tho abolition of the provinces was not before the constifcuncies when tho present representatives were elected,nnd that the people have a riffht to have their voices taken in a constitutional manner upon all questions so materially affecting their recognised rights and privileges as British subjects. After a h\v introductory remarks, and in speaking to tho first resolution he said it referred to the legal aspect of the question, and would require a constitutional lawyer to treat it properly. Upon the one hand the AttorneyGeneral said the House of Representatives had the power to do away with provincialism, while upon tho other hand Sir George Grey— whom ho believed to be just as good an authority upon this legal question as the Attorney General — held that the Attorney-Gene-ral was wrong in his opinion, and that House and the Government had not the power to do away with Provincialism. He Was not a lawyer, but he was inclined to think that the Government and tho House had not the power. We had had certain privileges given to us, and he was of opinion that the IloUse had not the right to abrogate them, and as they would observe, the latter part of the resolution . noted that the constituency declined to submit to such abrogation. He thought they should decline to allow the privileges that had been given them to go out of their hands. Let them endeavor to keep the privileges they now enjoyed-, which the Queen had given them, and use every lawful means to oppose what the Government were attempting to do. In speaking to the second resolution, he said he thought they Would all agree with him when he said this measure was in a revolutionary spirit. It would work a great change in Otago, and he thought there was something- behind the scenes which he and the meeting did not know anything about, that caused the Government to bring in this measure without letting- the people know anything about it. The Provincial Councils had been given, to the people, in order that they might have a voice and vole in the management of their own affairs, and now it was proposed to do away with these privileges altogether. Let. them suppose - for instance, that the House of Commons was to pass a measure to do away with tb:; House of Lords. The people' of kngland would purely call this revolutionary, and he thought it was equally revolutionary for the House of. fteprer sentatives in New Zealand to endeavor to rio.jrway with the Provincial Councils. No doubt tlie Government wishedto put something in their place, but he maintained that this something' was not so. good as the Provincial Councils. As he; .«?aid before, there was something behind which they did not see. J The proposals of the Government, if carried into effect, would qatise.a great deal "pf dissension kinong; the. . peqple. y ' : , In • the North ; Island ' theire i: was' a great cry i<J

abolish provincialism ; when he come to New Zealand first there was that cry. A Now, when the matter had really come to the push, public meetings had been held all over New Zealand, and though it was not very long since the people of Christchurch passed a resolution in favor of abolition, they had lately turned round and passed strongresolutions against the hurry exhibited by the Government in pushim- this matte* through, and asking tbfat the people might have some time to consider tho proposals and elect new representatives before the measure was passed. The present Parliament would soon expire, and this question should be allowed to come before the people then. The people would then have a chance of saying, through their representatives, whether the Abolition of Provinces Bill should be carried or not. Up to the present time, the people had never had a chance of expressing any opinion on the matter, They could, hold public meetings, however, and then their opinions would appear in the Press in some way or another, and, those in the House could see what thejjjfchad done. They had never had ujf opportunity of questioning their representatives on the subject, or of electirt men to vote upon a certain side of th? question. In the House at present there was certainly a good deal of discussion and argument, one member being in favor of abolition end another agamst it j and it would be a revolutionary course altogether if this Abolition Act was carried through without the voices of the people being heard on it. He did not think that the General Assembly had a right to come down and take our rights and privileges* - away in this manner. The Queen never took away privileges that she had once granted with the consent of Parliament 5 she might improve them, but never took them away. He considered that the privileges they now enjoyed as colonists should be increased and improved, and not taken from them. As to the third resolution, ho said that if they looked into the Local Government measure before the Houso they would see in it something that looked very much like a bait held out to those who had to disjier.se public money in the. districts to which they belonged. They were promised all soits of goods things which they would no doubt like to get. He 'thought Baiclutha would like to get, a good subsidy, and he thought Matau would like one too. The roads in the Matau district were in a bad state, and the Baiclutha streets also wanted to be repaired. The roads always needefl repair. Now, this bill hinted at some great thing that was to be given them, but ho thought this would turn out to be something like the capitation grant promised to some of the provinces, which dwindled down to one half of what was promised. if the Government got hold of our land fund, which he believed to be their aim, they would no doubt give the road boards and municipalities good subsides, but in the end he thought the people would bo the losers. In fact he did not think that the provisions made in this bill were at all fitted to supersede provincialism. Let them look at what- tho Provincial Council had done for Otago. Many who had been hero longer than he had might remember better, but he would direct their attention to the main roads, and call their minds back to the time when the river had to bo crossed b} r a punt. Now there was a good road from Dunedin to Balvilutha, and they had a bridge, and all this work had been done by their Provincial Coumil out of the land fund which it had at its disposal. I'or their own district, the Provincial Council had not been unmindful of their wants; for let them look what was voted last session for good roads from there to Kaitangata. He thought the}' wero much better off with the Provincial Council than without, it, though he would not say that we should not have abolition some day. If they could get. anj'thing better than provincialism, by all means let them have it, but, until they got something better let them stick to what they had. He was bound to say that in his opinion this bill was not a step in advance of provincial institutions, but a step backward. This was what Otago would ■find in ihe long mm if the measure nowbefore Parliament became law. As he said before, there was something behind all this, and by-and-bye they would know more about the necessity the Government of the day had for endeavoring to push this measure through so fast. The subsides he had alluded to had, been held up as baits to bribe people to support „tbe present Ministr.v in their present step /or the abolition of the province. Some people said that, a great deal of money had been wasted an the payment of members,. but in.a country like fthis there : were .no?independent gentlemen/withj'their, thousands of acres, or their* or ; £(iO/0,00, ; who could affojr4''t.Q;«pon|jl rnany \.week? : in Parliament' f6v.'t\)o ; \roen7Ajj6*fioY"nf . the thirig-j aHd lje Avojbnpti BQj suvje.-th^fiy, .we were not better offi *visb paiu^.m^i^p;" bers- than we, Bb9X&&fyisi onv,'s]ss&.'--senfcatLves;Hi d r; they#prl£^^ honor bf -tbehtiUijJg^ ,• (I^^^^^mA riot so to^h'sMtjj^ "paid ; forytbeir^^k/iaft^m^|l^^^^ffi time; ( '^^!^'oß^HM%M^^^^ .mevaberaio

in the Provincial Council did not involve the expenditure of such a large sum. He spoke subject to the correction of anyone who might be better informed on the subject, but he thought L2OOO a year would cover the whole of the Provincial Council expenses ; then he did not think this was too much, considering the manner in which these Councils had benefited their own districts throughout the whole colony He might say that he saw a great deal of merit in many things that the Provincial Council had done, and for one thing he would mention the opening of lands on the deferred payments system, bnt in this the}'' hnd been restricted by the Assembly. The Assembly had only allowed the Provincial Council to throw open a certain number of acres each year under this 53-Ftem. Debates had taken place in the Council on this subject, nnd at the instigation of Mr Reid, a resolution had been passed to the effect that something should be done to endeavor to irduce the Assembly to increase the area on deferred payment system. support ofthe fourth resolution, he wKd it was a strange thing that last year when the question cf the abolition of the provinces was first mooted in the House of Representatives, it was said that the provinces were to be abolished in tho North Island alone. Mr Yogel said distinctly that it was to be the North Island alone where the provinces were to ba abolished. Even the Hon. Mr Reynolds said that if it was contemplated to do away with the provinces in the South Island he would at once resign his seat. In the North Island, the people had a whole year to make up thtir minds upon this question, and to determine whether they would submit to the Government proposals or not. The people in tho South Island, on the contrary, had had no time to consider the matter at all. The Government had come down in a hurried manner with these sweeping* proposals without asking the people of the South Island for their advice or opinion, and this after the promise of Mr Yogel that the provinces of the South Island should not be interfered with. After all he had said Mr Reynolds now went in for the abolition, of Provincialism pure and pimple. He would like the people tc consider whether they would calmly submit to the action ofthe Government. "Were the provincial institutions to be abolished without their having a voice in the matter? In his opinion, the people should raise a protesting voice against such a course. They should have ample time C lven them to think over these matters, and until this time was piven, they should resist the proposed change. This question should come before the country, and, in saying" this, they were only demanding their rights as British subjects. In the old country every question that affected the Constitution was sent down for the consideration of the people, and time was i: i ven, and here we had a right to demand time too. All they asked — all that he for one asked— was that they should be heard. They should have time given them to discuss the matter at the next election, and send men to Parliament who represented the views of the people of tlie colony. One great ol'"°ction he had to the present mode of procedure — and he had many — was that the great hurry displayed by the Government only arose from a desire to pet hold of the Otago land fund. If this were the case, Otago would be the sufferer. They knew well what they hnd pot from the land fhnd upon their public works. With reference to the Opposition, they knew thai Sir George Grey and those who supported him were doing all in their power, but at { the same time the Government might be able to cany the matter throug-h. A great many had pledged themselves to support the Government to the second reading of the Bill, and they wonld not go any farther, but would then allow the matter to remain in abeyance until *the next general election. If this were done, and the people came to the conclusion that the provinces should be abolished, then let the abolition be carried out. If he were in the minority, he would submit. The Government seemed determined to go on, and seemed to have a large xncjoritv at their back, but a minority had rights, and conscience, and feeling, as well as a majority, and in his opinion they should have a little time to consider the matter. He thought that the i Government should give way this far to the minority, and allow the matter to stand over for a year in order that the people might consider it. The matter could then he settled next year. He next referred to some of the arguments against provincial institutions, and contended tln.t they had proved beneficial to the country, and ought to be retained until something better was got to supersede them, tie point d out the difficulties and inconveniences which would ari.se in carrying out the work of the road boards if altered as proposed by the Government, and concluded by urging that they should do all in Iheir power to resist this hurried and hard driving, and insist that time should be given to the people to consider this matter. What the majority were now doing was not fair to the minority of the House. Let them demand time to think about the matter. Let the Government give them one year to enable them to send np men to vote for the abolition of the provinces or not, and then the question could be settled with- - out any trouble to the country. j

Mr John Dunne said he had great pleasure in seconding the resolution that had just been moved by Mr Ingiis, who had given a very plain and able statement ofthe matter. There seemed to him something dangerous and treacherous in the action of the Government from the manner in which tbe bill had been brought down. According to the tone of the bill, we had our affairs mismanaged by the Provincial Governments, And the General Government were going to benefit us in such a hurry that we were not to be aware of it. Instead of benefiting us the bill looked dangeous to us as a free people. The meeting would be aware what return we had got for the Customs Reveuue of the province that the Government had already obtained possession of, and he was afraid that the liberal manner in which it was said we were to be treated with regard to subsidies to Road Boaras and Municipalities under the new bill, was too good to be true. The Government had not the money to subsidise these bodies in the liberal manner pro- j posed, and they might only find the money in the same proportion as before, when^we only got fifteen shillings instead'of two pounds under the.capitation allowance. We were living at a time when people all over the world were obtaining- additional rights and privileges instead of having these, they had taken from them, and it would be folly for the people of New Zealand to submit to the course the Government now proposed to take. He had no doubt whatever that if the Government, strong as the}' filt, carried this bill, her Majesty the Queen would never give her assent to it. The Governor would not have the power to do it — he must reserve it for her Majesty. As the last I speaker had said, this matter was not ' before the country when the members now in the Assembly were elected, and the people then knew nothing about it. Under these circumstances they had surely a right to be heard before such a great change was made. If they were to benefit by a change they would accept it, but first let them know what sort of a change they were to have. We must see that our landed estate and the endowments given us for different purposes were secured. As a matter of course it was not for our benefit that this bill was introduced — it was only for the benefit of the North Island. They had a right, as they had selected a very nice part of the world to settle down in, to see that they protected their rights and privileges, and they should go in heart and voice to protect them. Let them go and do this in a proper and constitutional manner, to see that their rights were not taken away from them. If the bill was an honest one why did the Government dread going' to the country so much as they seemed to do? Why did not the Government determine to allow the matter to g*o to the country to let the people declare what they wanted ? The people should have a choice in the matter. It seemed to him very apparent that the bill now before Parliament was not for the good of the people of Otago or Canterbury. It was simply meant for the North Island, where the provinces were like a swarm of bees. They had sucked all the honey there and now wanted to come down here to get a little. We were a peaceable and well-to-do community here, but we should resist this attempt with all the force in our power, and insist in a constitutional manner that the matter should be before the country, so that the people could return members to say whether the provinces were to be done away with or not, and to see that we get something better in their place. He supposed that they all know that Provincial Governments were not perfect, and he did not know any public body that was perfect. There was one thing that he might say for Provincial Governments. If the people in any part of the colony wanted anything done, tbev could select the most ordinary people in their midst and send them down to town, where they met with courtesy at the hands of the Provincial Government, while anything that could be done for them was done. If the people had to send their deputations to Wellington he thought they might say good-bye to all this. There would be nothing in the country but officials, and as the Premier said, we should not be able to legislate upon a scabby sheep down here. He was glad to see that the people of the colony were looking at the matter in a proper light, and that those who swallowed the bait at first were now endeavoring- to take the hook out of their mouths. In his opinion it was dangerous to let the present Parliament legislate upon this important matter. They were now in their last days, and were so anxious to benefit the country, that they wanted to do something before they were kicked out. He had much pleasure in seconding the resolutions that had been moved by Mr Ingiis, because he thought in common decency the Government should recognise the right of the people to make their voice heard in the matter — (Applause). Mr Donald Henderson, M.P.C., who was the next speaker, said he did not appear before them that night as one of their representatives to address his constituents, but as one of the settlers in the Clutha district to protest against the encroachment of the General Government upon the rights andjprivileges of the people. The resolution that had been proposed had been so ably supported that he did not intend to follow

in the same strain, but would make a few remarks upon matters in general connected with the proposals of the Government. The Government seemed to him to exhibit extraordinary haste in dealing with these bills. Last session it was agreed by the Government and by the Assembly tbat the bills should be prepared during the recess, and circulated throughout the colony, so that the people should be able to obtain a fair insight into them by the time the General Assembly met. Instead of this being clone, the bills were kept back until the very last. They were then brought forward, and an endeavor m?de to push them through upan the spur of the moment before the people had time to get a clear insight, as to their intentions. The present Assembly, in his opinion, did not fairly represent the public. The present Ministry went into office upon the shoulders of provincialism. Sir Julius Yogel was one of the most enthusiastic provincialists there was in New Zealand so long as he was in the Provincial Council, but immediately he went up to Wellington he changed his tune, and upon the spur of the moment he would abolish the whole of the provinces. He (the speaker) would not then advocate provincialism, or any other system of Government, but lie thought the people of the colony, before their rights and privileges were taken from them, should have a voice in the matter. All that we asked was that the question should be submitted to the people in order that they might say what change they wanted. It was evident that there had been some cry for a change; but it i was necessary that they should know the changes that they were to have, and so far the Government had not given them any power of knowing this. Last session the Government said that the Middle Island should not be infered with, but only the bankrupt provinces of the North Island. Now they came down without giving the people of this Island a hearing in the matter, and endeavored to sweep away our rights and privileges without our consent. Against this he protested in the strongest possible manner. — (Hear, hear.) The present Ministry contended that they had the voice of the islands from one end to the other, but he maintained that this was not true. He thought the Government would find to their suprise that a very large majority ofthe people ofthe colony were opposed to any change until the matter had bean submitted to the people, and they had said what change they wanted. j He had no faith in the promises ofthe present Government, for they only made promises for the purpose of breaking them. He referred to_ the breach of faith in the matter of the capitation allowance. This was one of the reasons why the provinces should be carefnl of the encroachments of the General Government, by the taking away of their revenues. Now, about the inducements that were held out as a bait for the provinces to jump at, he would show how this bait would affect the Clutha district so far as the road boards were concerned. In the present bill the Government offered L 2 to Ll to the road boards up to one shilling in the L upon the general rate, and they handed them over all the roads in the province to maintain. It would seem the Government gave them an immense deal more work. Last year the Provincial Government gave the road boards Ll 10s to Ll upon the ! general rates, and Ll to Ll upon the special rate, which was more than the General Government offered in the new bill. Last year the Provincial Government spent in the Clutha district upon public works — chiefly roads and bridges — the sum of L 25,000, so that from" the Provincial Government last year they had LlO for each Ll, instead : of L 2 to Ll as- promised by the General ! Government, who in addition meant to hand them over the whole of the works. He believed that if the new bill were carried, the subsidies promised would be swept away, and that while they would have ten times as much work to do, they would only have a tenth of the money to do it with. He had no confidence in the General Government whatever. In the next place the new bill would take away the Superintendents, and give the provinces Government nominees in their places. The places would be filled with Government nominees, who would become as great a nuisance as the rabbits were in Southland. When these Government nominees were placed all over the colony, farewell to liberty, and farewell to all the privileges they now enjoyed. It would be then impossible for any Assembly to turn out a Government. The nominees would be in number so strong as to be able to defy the public. He would just say a word about the able manner in which Sir George Grey had come forward to defend the rights of the people. Sir George Grey deserved the thanks of the people of the country from one end to the other ior the manner in which he came forward. There was no doubt that the aim of the whole movement was at the revenue ofthe Middle Island. We had a handsome revenue, and the Government were very much in want of money, and this was the 'reason they I made so many fair promises. They were just as good at breaking them as making them. He fully concurred with the resolutions, and gave them his support. (Applause). Mr M'Neil, M.P.C., said that in such a large meeting as the present 1

one, there would no doubt be some differences of opinion. If any gentleman present desired to say anything in favor of centralism, he would be glad to afford him an opportunity of doing so before he (Mr M'Neil) went on with the remarks he intended to make. He would sit down for a few moments in order to give any one who desired to do so an opportunity of speaking against the motion or moving an amendment. (After a pause, there being' no response), Mr M'Neil said : It had been said, and he had heard a great many — even the most rabid — Centralists acknowledge that provincial institutions had done a great deal of good work in the past, and he, for one, failed to see what waa to prevent them from doing* good work in the time to come. He would like to ask why Otago was now one of the most prosperous spots in the Southern hemisphere. He did not think at any rate that Centralism could claim any credit for this. There was one great thing that could be said in favor of provincialism, and that was that it had fostered and encouraged settlement. He, for one, apprehended that if provincialism w r as abolished the settlement of the country wonld be retarded. It would be a most difficult matter to deal with the different laws that now existed in tha different provinces. When the provinces were abolished, there would be one general land law. At the present time our Waste Lands Act was a most complicated thing for anyone outside Otap;o to deal with. We had land upon deferred payments, leased land, and land for, sale. If provincialism is abolished, it would be £2 per acre, free selection, and no deferred payment?. The present supporters of the Abolition Act were dead against settlement on the deferred payment system, while'we knew that it had been one of the most successful systems that had ever been adopted for the settlement of the people on the land. The proper carrying out of the deferred payment system would settle the country with a useful and energetic class of people. Some persons said that provincialism was expensive, but no one had ever spoken in his hearing of any cheap form of government wo were to have after the abolition ofthe provinces was carried out. He would like to ask where people were to be found, to undertake the government of the country for nothing. Even if such people could be found, they must have paid officials under them, In Dunedin for instance, he failed to see where any official could be dispensed with, except the clerk to the Provincial Council. The Waste Lands department would have to remain as it was at present, and the Public Works officers would be wanted. Some equally expensive nominee would be wanted in place of a Superintendent. Our Education system at the present time worked well and satisfactorily, and he did not see what change was required here. In a country like this it was impossible to sny that what would suit the South would suit the North. The interests of the two places were different, the nature of the country was different, and the same laws would not suit the two islands, With regard to the subsidies to the Road Boards, he suppose everyone could see the sop that was thrown out here, and he would say that he questioned the justice of spending the revenue in the way of subsidies to municipalities as had been proposed. The revenue should be devoted to the improvement of the countiy, and the towns were supposed to support themselves. This proposal for subsidies to municipalities was gently thrown out as a bait to catch the support of the Dunedin members, of whom there were a good number. With regard to the legality or illegality of the abolition of the provinces, he thought the Government must be quite aware that they were acting legally. Where there was power to create there must be power to destroy - and where there was power to to create provinces there must be power to destroy them. He wished that Sir George Grey were correct. He would heartily support the resolution. The resolutions were then put to the meeting and carried all but unanimously the call for " on the contrary " beingonly responded to by three hands. On the motion of Mr Henderson it was decided that the resolutions should be forwarded to Mr Thomson, M.H.R, for the Clutha district. . A vote of thanks to the Chairman terminated the meeting.