THE MORATORIUM.

Press, Volume LX, Issue 18195, 4 October 1924, Page 13

THE MORATORIUM.

choosing managers. heated scenes in house. SPEAKER THREATENS TO NAME MEMBER. (tPSCTAL TO "TJB rUM.") WELLINGTON, October 3. Chagrined and perhaps somewhat humiliated by their defeat on the Taxation Bill the other night the doublebarrelled Opposition in the House of Representatives last night set themselves the task of endeavouring to make political capital out of the fact ' that the Legislative Council had made amendments in the Mortgages Final Extension Bill. All the talk arose out of the necessary and usual procedure of disagreeing with the amendments, and the appointment of managers to draw up reasons and meet similar managers from the Council, with a view to a way oat of the impasse. The fact that the Gaming Bill had the next place on the Order Paper also probably had jomething to do with the flood of talk that ensued. Anyhow, both Liberals and Labour took every advantage of tho opportunity offered, and the result was a wasted evening after a wasted afternoon, during which members generally talked at length about a report which they had not yet seen. In the early hours of the morning there were stirring scenes, and on one or two occasions the House got quite out of hand. During the course of a debate that was at times very heated, the extraordinary spectacle was witnessed of the Labour Party taking their erstwhile bitter opponent, Mr W. D. Lysnar, the member for Gisborne, to its bosom, and showering honeyed words upon his now devoted head. All this arose from the fact that Mr Lvgnar had arisen to condemn the ' Prime Minister for his supposed actiou in regard to the moratorium. Mr Lysnar said that the Prime Minister, in moving his resolution, did not express his opinion of the action of the Legislative Council. Mr Massey: Don't you know that the Standing Orders prevent that? Mr Lysnar: I did not know. .'*• Mr Wilford: That rather spoils the f< whole of your speech. (Laughter.) Mr Lysnar, speaking excitedly, expressed 'his indignation with the Gov- ' ernmcnt in acquiescing in the action of the Legislative Council; The amendment, he said, created three distinct hardships. "You have to give notice bv December, you have to pay up by December, and there is no breathing period." Bill Might Be Lost. It was all the fault of the Government, he continued, in not finding out what the exact responsibility of the Bili was, and how many people won'l be ; affected by it. (Opposition '' Hear, hear**') "I will not hesitate," be said with imrntb, "so far as my voice and vote ' will >go, to express what I feel about it." V He concluded by declaring that there was a danger of the whole Bill being thrown over; a consummation which *ome people were aiming for at the pyssent moment. . The Hon. C. J. Parr said the Legislative Council ! had merely exercised its constitutional right, and there was Ho need for heat and ill-feeling. ? Mr Lysncr: There is for plain • to speak at 12.35 a.m., the Prime Minister said he noted thai it sras after the half-hour, so no new business could be taken. There had been a great waste of time that night, end they all knew the reason. (Tho second reading of the Gaming Amendment Bill standing nex 08 the Order Paper.) He denied that ho had influenced tho Upper Howe to amend the Bill, and added tha. Sir Francis Bell had found that he was in a minority on the Statutes Rev:.sion Committee of the Legislative Council ; and had withdrawn from it. The Government, he maintained, was not responsible for the position the Bill was in. Honourable members themselves were responsible. (Liberal and Labour dissent.) The Government had u tro--1 dnced the Bill, and but for the Bill a certain number of settlers would bave been at the mercy of tho mortfeaj-ees when the moratorium 'was lifted on December 31st next. "After to-night's experience, added Mr Massey, "I almost think it ia a pity we brought down tho Bill. (Hear, hear.) It was done with the b'ist intentions, but what gratitude have we got for it? Nothing but misrepresentation and slander, A member: Don't make ic too'hot. Mr Wilford: No slander has taken place in this House. Ho asked that tho Prime Minister should withdraw the word. A member: He did not say where. Mr Speaker ruled that the word should bo withdrawn. Mr Massev: Very well, I alwajs bow to the ruling of tho chair, whs' her I 3gree with it or not. Mr Speaker: Order, order.- Do I rmQerstand the right hon. member ti withdraw the word? Mr Massey: Yes, sir, I have with- . drawn it. It is a very strong term, and I am not going to repeat it, but I tKink after what has occurred since 7.3) this evening, if people were in the same position as I am they would feel iust as strongly as I do. Government and Farmers. Mr Massey proceeded to say that th& Government had made every provision possible to meet the difficulties of farmers who had mortgages falling due, and that every member knew the large amounts of money it had recontlv pro--Tided for meeting the difficulty. In so far as party was concerned, the Government had endeavoured to avoid it in tfcia matter in every possible manner. Ia conclusion lie said: Now I will issue a challenge to the members on the opposite benches who have been slanging me and slanging tho Bill for all they are worth during the last few ' hours. I challenge a single member to go into the lobby against the proposal tint is before the House. (Libera) and Labour laughter.) You won't dare to v ote against it. Mr Wilford: Nobody will. .Mr Massey (emphatically): There you vkave got the whole thing. Later cn I Sjill move to set up a conference. Mem- ; hers all along understood that, bu£ they Tsnt on talking and wasting the time °f to House and of the country. They .lava been asking me to wind 'ip the ses- . «on as soon as I could, and I have been ' .Tilling to do so, but Ism J lo t getting *wi»taucc The waste oi tinu

ing this session lias been something scandalous, and this night has been the worst of all. I now ask the mc.nbers who have been criticising if they are sincere. If they are, let them go into the lobby :ind vote against the proposal. The motion was then put and agreed to on the voices. Mr Massey then moved that the Hon. C. J. Parr, Mr Atmore, and himself be a Committee to draw up reasons whv the House should dissent from the alterations made in the Bill in another place. A Liberal member: They arc all suj> porters of the Bill. Mr McCombs: Why not Mr Lysnar? (Laughter.) Mr Massey: The selection is mine, and I am going to do what I think is right. Wc aro all supporters of the Bii'. Tf the members of the Labour Party want a representative I am quite willing to give them one. A Labour Nomination. Mr Holland: I suggest that Mr Savage be one. Mr Massey: Very well, I accept mac. it is to prepare reasons. Mr Holland: Why not Mr Lysnar? Mr Massey: The mere fact of the lion, member's wishing to put him oil is quite sufficient reason. (Laughter.) Mr Holland: And, yet you put Mr Savage on at my suggestion. Mr McCombs. in a brief speech, objected to the Hon. C. .T. Parr's nomination on the ground that lie was a. supporter of what the other House had done: whereas the honourable member for Gisborne had put up the best case against what had been done. Mr Massey (glancing at the Labour benches): Oh, you are all very sweet on the member for Gisborne to-night. (Laughter.) Mr Holland: With ..the consent of the hon. member for Gisborne I will move that his name be added to the Committee. (Labour "Hear, hears.") The Minister of Education is not an enthusiastic, supporter of the attitude the House is taking up. Mr Lysnar interposed. He said that while he recognised the seriousness and the importance of this matter, he would not think of accepting in opposition to the Prime Minister. He would not. go on the Committee without a free hand.

Mr Massey: There is an old saying that it is not a good thing to take gifts from the Greeks. I have no objection to tho member for Gisborne, but what I wish is to have representative men selected from both sides of the House. Now who will say that I have not done that? Mr Masters: I will say it. Mr Massey: Well, you don't know what you are talking about. Mr Musters: I do know what I am talking about. At this stage several members were talking at the same time, and Mr Speaker kept cal-ing "Order! Order!" but with little effect. He threatened to name the member for Stratford (Mr Masters) for repeated interruptions. Mr Massey said he had not spoken to Mr Atmore at all on the matter. He simply took it that he was a reasonable member, though he was on the other side of the House. He added that it was quite evident to him that the first conference would fail. Then the House would have to select another lot of managers. He emphatically repudiated a that he had tried to influence the Upper House. He had never done such a thing. Ho had always allowed them to exercise their own judgment. If there had to be another lot of managers appointed he would ask the Minister of Customs to act in his place, and the member for Gisborne to make one of the party. An "Ugly" Expression. Mr Masters rose to speak to the proposaL He got as far as saying that the Prime Minister had loaded the uloe, when his remarks we're cuf short by loud objections from the Reform benches.

Mr Massey: That is a very ugly expression. I cannot allow such a suggestion to be made. The hon. member has brought a saying into this House that I have never hoard used on a previous occasion.

Mr Masters: It has already been used to-night. A member: It is the lowest possible form of expression. Mr Potter: It is a crook's term. Mr Speaker, who could not be heard very distinctly, was understood in the Press Gallery to say that he did not think the honourable member for Stratford meant to use it in an offensive way, but that it was an unparliamentary term, and ho must ask the member to withdraw it. Mr Masters: I withdraw the statement about loading the dice. I will say that tho Prime Minister hf.s set up a "most unfair Committee. He knows that the member for Nelson has opposed the extension of the moratorium on overy vote taken in this House. As for the Minister of Education, ho would lift the moratorium to-morrow if he could. Mr Massey: I had no knowledge of how the member for Nelson had voted. X simply thought hini a reasonable man, not an extreme party man. I am willing to propose the member for Hurunui if he will accept. Mr Holland withdrew his proposal that Mr Lysnar should bo appointed. Mr Massey tlien moved the substitution of Mr Forbes's name for that of Mr Atmore. It was now 1.20 a.m., and the House, which had been more than half empty at times during the actual debate, was now nearly full, every member in the precincts being in his plac?. Mr P. Fraser said that as a_ result of i what had happened something in the nature of a constitutional crisis would come about in regard to the Upper House. Members would listen to what Sir Francis Bell had to say. "In that House," added Mr Fraser, "anything he says goes. He is reasonable, and can put reason into others." The Hon. J. G. Coates interposed at the stage, telling the Opposition that it was absurd to say that such :i situation had never occurred before. There had been instance after instance of similar situations. On the Highways Bill they had appointed ihree sets of managers, and had three conferences last session. , Mr Fraser: That was a trif.e jn comparison with this matter. Mr Coates: It was probably very much more important. It is only politics that arc being talked now. (Hear, hears.) . , Mr Lysnar made some intersection against what Mr Cuatps was saying, and added with warmth that it was the Prime Minister that bad brought politics into it. He objected to Mr Coates's statement.

Nothing Unusual. Mr Coates (turning with an amiable smile towards Mr Lysnar): With all due deference to the hon. member for Gisborne, I am going to say what Mr Speaker will let me say, and I am not going to be switched aside by the hon. member for Gisborne. I am just as much entitled to my opinion as he is to his. There is, I repeat, nothing unusual in the situation that has arisen, and there is nothing sinister about it. I can remember other occasions when difference# have occurred, and managers have been appointed to confer with another place. On those occasions there was no question as to how a man voted, but managers were selected who would represent the Honse quite well. And, after all, the House has to say, when they come back, whether or not it will agree with their report. Mr Lysnar: It depends upon the, Government whether they make it a

political action or not. (Labour "Hear, hears.") Eventually the Prime Minister, the Hon. C. J. Parr. Mr Forbes, and Mr Savage were appointed managers to draw up reasons and confer with managers appointed by the Legislative Council. At twenty-five to two the Prime Minister moved that- the House adjourn. The motion was agreed to, but several members remained for a while in the Chamber talking over the exciting incidents of what was really a wasted day. BEFORE BOTH HOUSES. REASONS FOR DISAGREEMENT. (SPECIAL TO "THE PBBSS.") "WELLINGTON, October 3. The position whidi has arisen was mentioned in both branches of the Legislature to-day. As soon as the House met. Mr Masters asked the Prime Minister, if, in view of the prospective deadlock between the Houses regarding the Mortgages Final Extension Bill, he would appoint sufficient members to the Legislative Council to ensure the passage of the Bill this session. " Mr Massey: I will do nothing of the sort. Later on, the Prime Minister reported that the Committee of Managers (consisting of the Prime Minister, the Hon. C. J. Parr, Mr G. W. Forbes, and Mr M. J. Savage) appointed to craw up reasons for the House disagreeing with the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Biil 'ml agreed upon the reason that the amendments made, especially in regard to the date of expiry, were not satisfactory, and would be exceedingly inconvenient for mortgagors, causing considerable hardship. Mr W. ~D. Lysnar protested that the reasons were not strong enough. In his opinion the main reason was want of money, and that should be stressed to the other House. The banks would not make advances. He had been informed that the Public Trustee had commitments for the next twelve months, and that the Advances to Settlers Department could not do anything for 12 or 38 months. There was absolutely no channel through which mortgagors could obtain funds. The Prime Minister said the reason drawn up was a mere matter of form, and never would be heard of. Financial matters were not quite so bad as had been represented by Mr Lysnar. No doubt there would be some difficulties; otherwise it would not have been necessary for 'him to borrow over a million of money. He had been advised that day that authorisations amounting to £646,000 had been made. The money was available for settlers, and for settlers only, and some of it would meet the needs of those affected by tho moratorium. Reasons of Legislative Council. The Legislative Council decided _ to insist on its amendments, and appointed the Hon. Sir Francis Bell, the Hon. Sir' John Sinclair, the Hon. Sir Edwin Mitchelson, and the Hon. "V. H. Boed a qommittee to draw up reasons for its insistence. ' Later, the reasons were submitted to tho Council as follows: — (1) It is desirable that at the carliost dato an accurate estimate should be obtained of the number of persons and properties affected by the Mortgages Extension Acts. (2) That such an estimate can only be obtained by requiring those mortgagors who desire extensions to file their applications, and that, a postponement to March 31st, 1920, of the limit of time is unnecessary and undesirable. (3) That inasmuch as under the Bill the filing a mortgagor of a motion for extension has automatically the effect of preventing any exerciso of the mortgagee's powers until the Court can deal with the subject matter, nothing is gained m tho mortgagor's interest by the postponement of such filing in any case where a mortgagor has a just claim for extension. The Hon. E. Newman (for tho reason that he preferred March 31st to December 31st as a final date) and one other member voted against, the reasons, which, however, were agreed to. The Council adjourned until *.30 p.m. on Tuesday. When the House of Representatives resumed at 7.30 p.m., a message was received from '-he Legislative Council conveying tho reasons for tho amendments mtde in the Mortgages Final Extension Bill. Mr Massey moved that the reasons be disagreed with, and that a conference with the Council be asked for. This was agreed to, and tho Hon. L, J Parr Messrs Forbes, Savage, and Massey 'were appointed managers to represent the House at the conference.